in some cases, it is less than a dog walk. as far as the dog walkers ago, i think if it is a requirement, just as i think that they would require a that the dogs are properly vaccinated said they are not coming into contact with unvaccinated dogs. there are so many diseases we see in the city. parvo, kennel cough, which is easily spread. i think that many are requiring notice, so this would be just one more. supervisor mar: thank you. supervisor wiener: a conversation about a more robust program, and they go door-to- door, and it pays for itself because you are dramatically increasing the number of dogs that are licensed.

>> thank you. supervisor wiener: any other departments? yes, ms. ballard. >> that afternoon, supervisors. sarah ballard from the recreation and parks department. i just want to speak to this issue of the number of dogs and flag the notion that we understand that the golden gate recreation area is contemplating having regulations, as well, as was discussed by the supervisor in a previous hearing that he is working closely with them, it seems important from the department perspective to extent possible to have those run in parallel tracks, so if there is a different number, you may see dog walkers using the city property over ggnra property, particularly on park property. supervisor mar: my understanding is there a maximum number of dogs is 6? >> my understanding is that they

are pursuing six, but they have not gone past their rulemaking. supervisor wiener: i have spoken with them, and they will be putting in their own dog walker legislation. they like this legislation, but they were pretty firm that they would go no higher than seven. ok. did you want to -- ok, we will open it up for public comment. if there is anyone else who wants to fill one out, we have them. public comment will be two minutes. ok, page, robert it, sally, renée, gilbert, kathy, and the lindsay. >> hi, i am page.

i run a dog walking company. i am certification. i also teach pet cpr and first aid, and i work over at the spca in the reactive dog program. first of all, ms. katz said that they do not train dogs. that is true. but if you have ever seen cattle dogs, they really do help. they would not have such a time if they did not have an assistant job helping them. my daughter is an assistant. gracie. she helps me a lot set the tone, so i personally appreciate having her with me, and if she counted as an extra dog, that would be money that i am missing out of the money i am making. i am not getting rich, as opposed to what ms. katz may

think, and i do prefer to do only six dogs. however, just this morning, i got a call from a woman who was also a dog walker, and her car got totalled, and she needed people to take dogs on. i took two of her dogs out, and someone else took others out. with the help of other dog walkers, she was able to dent the dogs walked, with the aids, and i would not have the opportunity to do that for another dog walker if it were only 46 dogs. said thank you. supervisor wiener: thank you very much. next speaker. >> i am rob. i am a total of who let the dogs out dog walking. we employ seven individuals, and they spend their money in san francisco.

i could not have given a better introduction of the stakeholders today. it is really gratified that you understand the issues. supervisor, it made me happy to hear that. just quickly, i wanted to address the maximum number of dogs issue. you know, a discussion of how many dogs maxxam a group can have is arbitrary in certain ways because it is not really the number of dogs. it is the person who is handling the dogs, and if you have someone who is appropriately trained and experienced, they can walk eight dogs easy. it is not an issue. conversely, if you just have one or two dogs -- job -- dogs that are aggressive, one dog off leash is a problem, you know? so is not the number of dogs, it is the experience of the trainer and the regulations. i think you guys have a great

way of addressing the training and experience requirements to assure that people walk dogs and san francisco appropriately. our seven walkers walk 6 to eight dogs. they are all experienced. when they have eight dogs, those that have been together for years, they can do it safely. and if you arbitrarily set a limit at six, it is simple economics. you reduced 25% of our revenue, lower our profits, we make less, we have to charge our clients more, and that is how it is. clients spend about $20 per day for dog walking, and that is about $400 per month, and if you limit it to 6, the price will go up in excess of $400 to $500, so i appreciate your understanding of the issue, and i appreciate your consideration of the eight dogs.

supervisor wiener: thank you. thank you very much. >> good morning, supervisors. thank you, supervisor wiener, for crafting the regulations which formally recognize the profession of dog walking. i am not a dog walker, but i have often used the services of dog walkers and spent a lot of time with my dogs in the park, and i have got to say, for example, and i am here really to speak only about the limit on the number of dogs, and no matter how much of a dog whisper a dog walker is, when those dogs come out of the car and come into the dog park and scatter and do their business, it is virtually impossible to see and act on nine dogs that are pooping at the same time, can i also agree with ms. katz that

pointed up the other problems you have when you have a large number of dogs, so i would suggest that the regulations recognize some of these issues and that the number be limited a little more. supervisor wiener: they keep. ms. stevens? >> hi, sally stevens, sf dog. the route the years, we have stress six or seven dogs per dog walker. when dogs are not under control or when pooper is not picked up, it reflects badly on all of us, whether you are a dog walker or a dog owner. less than six i do not think it's economically feasible at all, because the price will go up, and it will price people out of being able to afford dog walkers, so any more than that i do not think will work, between

six or seven is good. seven is a nice compromise. we can accept age, because it is better that the process goes through, because right now we have in affinity. six or seven, seven may seem like a nice compromise, and we could lip -- live with aids, but the important thing is to get this process going so that the dog walkers are legitimized and so we have more control. supervisor wiener: thank you. supervisor mar: supervisor cohen? supervisor cohen: what is sf dog? >> we are a group. :o -- supervisor cohen: this may

be silly, but what did we do before we had dog walkers? >> perhaps they were left outside. this is not the way to approach this. as a result, when we have now is a much more organic understanding and better understanding of dog behavior and the importance of exercise and socialization for dogs, for them to be better behaved and everything else, so the well exercised a dog is a well behaved dog, and everybody says that, but it is true, and a well socialized dog is a good dog. supervisor cohen: i also hear them saying that about children, if they go to preschool. >> a lot of people like in dogs to about a two-year-old or three-year-old.

supervisor cohen: thank you. supervisor mar: often, people are repeating that there are more dogs than children in san francisco and that sometimes they are treated better than children, especially those from lower income neighborhoods. i just wonder if you could talk about how important dogs are to the people that they live with and how you respond to people who are putting that out. >> yes, a lot of families that have children also have dogs, so they are not mutually exclusive. i think the importance of dogs in the community, it is a source of community. people pressmen to san francisco for a job, may be out of college, their first job is here, and they do not know anybody, and they walk their dog, and they meet people. dogs can be a great way of creating community in a modern urban setting for a lot of people.

san francisco as a very transient population as the a lot of people come here to get jobs and have a kid, and then they moved out to the suburbs, so the demographics of the city, you have a lot of seniors who raised their kids in the 1960's, and now they are still here in the empty nest, so they have dogs for companionship and exercise. there are couples that are starting out, and they are a way of providing community. supervisor mar: 80. supervisor wiener: ok, miss, and the answer. >> thank you, supervisor for getting this through finely. i really wanted to speak about the number of dogs. i have been walking my own dogs in the city park for years, and

i have watched the number of dogs go from a handful to the hundreds we have now, and my feeling is that the smaller number is better. i have hired and used a dog walkers several times, and i would never send my dog with someone who took more than six dogs. i think form a safety standpoint, in the car, in the park, you know, it is very hard to clean up after that many dogs piling out of a car. i also a frequent the park. i am there twice a day, and the main complaints you here are about the dog walkers. now, there are some very excellent dog walkers, but when people see them piling out of the car and scattering, that seems to be a red flag for a lot of people, dog owners as well as the non dog owners, and i think our positions as dog guardians

is to be as responsible, and i want our professional dog walkers to reflect well on the rest of us so we do not get a bad name, so i am for six or seven. thank you very much. supervisor wiener: think you. mr. gilbert. >> good afternoon, supervisors. i am victor gilbert. i have made a lot of calls to supervisor wiener's office, i am sure you know my name, and i am the owner of a condominium directly across the street from the douglas dog park, and i have spoken to your office, and i do not know the procedure. i want to submit a plan of where my house is to the park. the dog walkers are fine, but i feel very betrayed by the system

and so forth, and i am not born to be popular with you, supervisor, but i feel betrayed by you because i have made so many calls to your office, and they asked me to i am, and i say "and victor dilbert," and they come back and say you are in a meeting. this has become emotional for me. i have lived there since 1995. it is at par, very much under the radar, and i would also like to reform it. it is from elizabeth kalkstein, and it is signed by a woman, douglas playground. they modified the playground, and it says in a san francisco department of city planning categorically exempt from environmental review. now, when you put an apartment building up in san francisco, you have to -- may i take a bit

longer? supervisor wiener: yes, please continue. >> you have gone to others. i do not know. the type is as small, but nobody has consulted us, and i am deeply, deeply offended by it, and i have sent to this data through the supervisors -- to the supervisors through alisa. if you look at the map, it is like a canyon. from my living room to the floor of the park is 70 feet, and the acoustics are terrible. i have barking day and night. i am not criticizing the dog walkers. one lady said that when the dog scatter, and from my window, you cannot control them. the park is open until 10:00 at night, and i have no peace. my health.

the dog walkers are fine. i watched them and introduce myself to some of them, but this has been a profound invasion of my life, and i am forced to have that dog barking all day long. i could not attend the meeting the other night at the diamond heights association. i know you weren't there, supervisor, at the invitation of track. i have led -- live there in my present apartment since 1995, so i feel betrayed by everybody because it is under the radar, and with all the calls that i made to your office, and one lady, and she said the park is here tuesday, you should probably get some plans to cope with it. i had a conference call with the planning department, some very nice ladies. their names escape me. i am not prepared in two minutes

to spill my guts. i've been listening to this for years. somebody discovered apart and putting on the internet, and their dogs that are there day and night. supervisor mar: thank you, sir. your two minutes are up. >> i just have one less thing to say. supervisor mar: please wrap up, and very quickly. >> i am disappointed, supervisor mar, that you did not respond. supervisor mar: supervisor cohen as a question. supervisor cohen: what exactly is the issue? >> the issue for me is the amount of dogs scattering, and the park should never have been an off leash park. the biggest issue is the residents were not consulted. i had no knowledge of this until

i heard a dog barking. it has been under the radar. supervisor cohen: i am going to bring up sarah ballard from recreation and parks to talk about the noticing. we will have to share my. go ahead, please. >> i do not have my notes with me, but i believe it was in 2008 that we convened with a dog advisory council, which set out to finalize the off leash areas, and there are 28 in the system, and they all went republic process and then were publicly adopted by the commission. supervisor wiener: and this was when this was a dog park >> i think so, because we have not added any new ones since then. supervisor mar: we just have to

have ms. ballard respond. my information is that this will really help with the training said that the dog walkers and others really will keep their dogs under control much better. supervisor wiener: i have spoken with mr. gilbert's, and it is one of those unfortunate situations where we have a very popular dog park there, and there is a sound issue. i am not an expert on sound, but it travels to mr. dilbert's unit. mr. dilbert has indicated that this may be should not be a dog park, but that is a much larger question. i would say that this legislation by creating regulations and by limiting the number of dogs, training standards, etc., i am not saying it will resolve mr. gilbert's

problems, but i think it will be an improvement in the overall diversity of dog walkers, so we have a few more speakers. cathy, demetrius, chris, and barbara ammano. >> hi, i am cabin from the recreation center. we walk dogs in san francisco. thank you again for hearing all of oz. i am still in favor of eight dogs for the dog walking. we have talked about the economics last time. i am here to ask a few more questions about the fees regarding this licensing and was wondering what it meant for a business to be licensed as opposed to a walker who would be an employee. supervisor wiener: i will answer that question.

every business has to have a business license. if you are a hair salon, you have to limit business license, but you also have to have certain licensing to do that, so basically currently, without this legislation, anyone conducting a dog walking business is required to have a business license, period, and this would require a permit specifically for dog walking. >> so for myself or for the judgment misspoke earlier, who has seven employees, would each employee have to file to get a dog walking license? supervisor wiener: everyone would have to have a permit, but only the business itself would have to have a business license, and this is a the provides for working under someone else's business license. you can work without having your own if you are an employee in the dog walking business. >> what about the permit.

is there a fee? supervisor wiener: if i am a dog walking business, and i have 10 employees, i could have the employees pay for their own, or the employer could purchase them for each dog walker, but each dog walker would have to show that they went through the training or are grandfathered in. >> and it would be up to $250? supervisor wiener: thereafter, of the to $100. >> for me, personally, that is quite a bit of money. we only walked the equivalent of one dog walker's worth of dogs, but we of three people that are dog walkers in my company. myself and two others. the one person is our main employee, and the other person is basically her manager, does all of the scheduling, does not

actually walk every day but will cover for the other person, so given this legislation, i would have to buy a dog walking permit for both of those people even though only one of them walks on a regular basis. my proposal would be something like where the business actually gets all of the dog walking permit stuff into place and then you'll have a separate tier for employees were all they have to prove it is the trading, because under all of the other regulations, i as the corporation owned the vehicle, the insurance, the liability insurance, and we add that walker to the liability insurance, so our walker does not have any of those other things, and it would be very hard for her to prove that she has all of the other stuff. in regard to the fees, i think it would be interesting to look at just like one tear basically a independent contractors and dog walking businesses getting

that overall permit and then getting an employee permit that would be associated only with that company. thank you. supervisor wiener: think you. mr. demetrius? >> hi, good afternoon. my name is ahmed demetrius, and i own a little buddha's dog walking. i get it that people are not amenable to 12 to 13 dogs. i do not think that somebody can control that many dogs. i've been there are ways to do it. but i think you can let dogs out of the car in small groups. you can have a clear field of vision, and i am really good at picking up the group. i am locked -- like a hawk guy out there about it, so i just

wanted to thank you because i know you've done a lot of work and have talked to a lot of people who have different opinions, but i want to encourage you to keep the number as high as possible. i know that in other cities and jurisdictions, the number is a little bit lower, but i think it is really important to consider the urban density of san francisco, really like the density of dogs per square mile and people and the number of parks. i think a higher number more realistically allows us to meet that need and work within that framework. i know for me, one of the reasons that i hate having smaller groups is just the driving in the city. and for the dogs, i think when there is any group smaller than eight for me, i think it is a little bit boring, and i think it is for them, too.

i would really like to operate my own business, because i'd like to do it my way, and i'd like to take my time, and under these new regulations, it is not or did possible to do that, but you are the experts that are saying six dogs is a good? i hear seven, up from animal care and control, and bay are not friends and have not been there for a long time. i do not know if you have been to animal control. it is a terrible place for a dog. it is cold. it smells funny. dogs are getting euphemized. seven of my dogs are not going to act the same. when i heard that mentality about pack mentality, it struck me. -- when i heard that comment about pack mentality, that struck me. economically and the

stakeholders all over the city, using the parks. supervisor wiener: thank you. i have two remaining speaker cards, chris and barbara. >> we have a very small dpa that we are charged with. supervisor mar: what is that? >> a dog play area. it is slightly over 10,000 square feet, the minimum. so we have a real issue with individuals being able to enjoy the park, and what happens is is so small, as many are -- there are others, mckinley, st. mary's, there are other small dog parks, when even a group of seven or eight comes in, and another group of five or six comes in, and then another

group, and you get these large groups. even the, there is dogs doing their business all over, and they cannot track that. we are charged with keeping them clean. recreation and park does zero maintenance. zero minutes. i am sure this is true that other dog play areas. so we have to deal directly with the problems of irresponsible dog walkers. dog owners, as well, but the problems, we have been waiting for this legislation because the people in our group have really felt the impact of safety when these dogs come in. it fills up the space in very quickly. dogs running around, running into each other. my dog has been hit twice, both times when large groups of dogs or released inside. we love the dog walkers, we love the dogs, but we have a problem with this.