supervisor mar: good afternoon, everyone. this is the land use and economic -- economic committee. the meeting will come to order. it is monday, january 9, 2012. i am supervisor mar. joining me also is supervisor wiener and supervisor cohen. clerk miller: things will appear on the agenda unless otherwise stated. supervisor mar: i would like ms. miller to please call item no. 1. clerk miller: i number one, regulating commercial dog walkers on park property. supervisor mar: the sponsor is

supervisor wiener. supervisor wiener: what the committee adopted. additionally, on a proposed that the maximum number of dogs that a commercial dog walker could walk would be seven, which was a compromise between those at the keating six and those advocating a to. the small business commission had recommended that the number be increased to eight plus the dog walkers personal blog. this committee accepted that recommendation and made a corresponding amendment at the last hearing. so today, first, just to step back once again, commercial dog walkers provide a critical service to san franciscans. approximately one-third of households and san francisco have one or more dogs. for many people, if they do not have access to commercial dog

walker, it makes it impossible or next to impossible to be a good dog odor or guardian, said this is an industry that we want to succeed. we want to cultivate it. it is important to have high- quality, professional dog walking services. we also, of course, want to make sure that we have standards around it. a significant majority of dog walkers and my experience know what they are doing and do a great job. there are some that maybe are not on the same level. this legislation, and we are not the first city to do this, i think 10 or 12 have done this, including those in the bay area, would provide standards, including training standards, permitting standards, vehicle safety standards, etc.. it would also provide an upper limit on the amount of dogs. this would provide consumer protection for those using commercial dog walking services

and also allow dog walkers to have that additional legitimacy. in other words, they have a permit from the city, and it is not just a random thing that you are doing. it is a profession, as we know it is. dog walkers and dog owner groups, the dog gord, and there was a process. there are two amendments that i distributed to my colleagues. i have some additional copies here. i am requesting the committee to make today. one is under the current version of the legislation, there are vehicle safety standards and equipment safety standards, and the current version of the legislation requires that animal care and control inspect

each vehicle that each dog walker uses and inspect the safety equipment. in talking to the department, that is not a feasible requirement to require every vehicle to be inspected for the hundreds and hundreds of dog walkers we have come to require inspection of the state to commitment, so at the request of the department, the amendment would eliminate the inspection requirements and would instead allows the department of animal control to issue what the statements -- standards are, and if there is a violation, that could be reported. the second change has to do with the threshold, the number of dogs and require a permit. i initially proposed that anyone walking four or more dogs at once would be subject to this. at the last committee hearing, we amended it down to two, because some dog walkers abdicated that was unfair, if

you are walking two dogs commercially, you do not have to get a permit, but if you are walking four or five, you do. in further consultation, that i think is also not workable. there are so many non dog walkers that are walking dogs. in terms of enforceability, if you are a part officer, and you see someone walking two dogs, you would not know if that person is a dog walker, but if it is odd or six dogs, you have a better idea. displaying this on a lanyard, we do not think it is enforceable, asking the committee to move this back to the original for those walking four or more dogs. those are what we are proposing. the maximum number, as i mentioned, was amended by the committee, 8, 9 with a personal

blog. since then, i have received and a substantial amount of input from dog owners, dog walkers, and a number of my colleagues who expressed that that is too many dogs and that that is not acceptable, so i just want to put that out there that i do not see that we will have support at the full board for eight plus 01, so when we are done here today, we can have a discussion about the appropriate number of dogs, and i do have a suggestion. i am going to suggest that we keep it at 8 instead of the nine, and i think that might be more acceptable to some folks, and then we can see what the full board does tomorrow. thank you. supervisor mar: in thank you. if there is no public comment, we will open it up. folks who would like to speak,

please come forward. supervisor wiener: we do have cards, and adducing sarah ballard from recreation and park, and does anyone from any of the department's wish to speak first? >> thank you. director at the office of small business. just to reiterate, the position they took in regards to the eight dogs and then the one additional dog, and really understanding and listening to the business, from the business perspective in terms of the economic balance, so i just want to reiterate that that was the reason for their recommendation for the eight, and understanding

the importance of having a personal dog that helps keep the pack in control, so i just want to reiterate the commission's stance. i think supervisor at the last meeting, you said it this was not doable and we have not seen improvements, this could be revisited. thank you. supervisor wiener: any other departments want to speak? animal control. >> thank you. good afternoon, supervisors. i just wanted to weigh in on the numbers. we have had a lot of discussions about this. as i mentioned at the last meeting, we had guidelines for many years that recommended six dogs as a maximum. we have a number of dog walkers

who have signed up and are listed on our website as agreeing to our guidelines and find it fiscally sound for them to what that number, as well as the concerns i mentioned at the last meeting about the availability to pick up after a large number of dogs. the animal welfare is concerned about keeping track of that many dogs in terms of them getting lost or injured, and of course the public protection concern. the larger the pact, been more likely to get what is called a pack mentality, to attack animals or perhaps people. so the numbers are a concern to us. we have always stood by net six as a maximum, as is done in many other jurisdictions throughout the country, even in the bay area. i know that is the maximum number of the east bay area, and ggnra said that would be the maximum number that they would

allow. i know that has been a concern, and i know that small businesses are concerned. i know the average cost of a dog walker and doing the math, it is still feasible. we have seen that with the many, many dog walkers to sign up to be on our list and follow our guidelines, so i wanted to weigh in on that. i have to admit that i know very little about dog behavior and training. but in terms of the influence of one dog on others, is dogs could train others, we would not need trainers, but, yes, dogs more often pick up bad habits rather than learn good habits, unfortunately, in my personal experience as well as professional experience, and i am happy to answer any questions you may have. supervisor mar: talking about the dog licenses, can you talk about the importance of

registering your dogs and how this legislation might impact that? >> yes, dog licensing is something that has been on the books and very long time in california and in san francisco, pretty much nationally. dog licenses are required particularly in areas like san francisco, which is considered to be a rabies endemic area. we initiated a major campaign about 1.5 years ago. we have received a lot of public input about the low number of dogs that are licensed. we believe it is somewhere between 12% and 15% in san francisco are licensed. a license serves many, many purposes. it can reunite a guardian with apec faster than a chip, which has to be scanned. it shows to other dog owners or guardians of that there is a responsible owner here who has

the rabies vaccine. it also helps if a dog is bitten or bites and has not had its rabies vaccine. it has to be quarantined i believe for six months, which is pretty significant. also, the revenue helps us to continue to provide the critical services we provide to all animals in san francisco, and again, it is a legal requirement. i know that there was a question raised about that it is something that the owners should do rather than the dog walkers. however, san francisco did pass a lot 10 or so years ago or veterinarians to provide rabie'' information. at the time, it was considered pretty onerous to the veterinarians. they have since come into compliance, and other jurisdictions are following suit. it is considered very important. fortunately in san francisco, registering online is pretty simple, and it is $20 for a

spayed or neutered a dog. in some cases, it is less than a dog walk. as far as the dog walkers ago, i think if it is a requirement, just as i think that they would require a that the dogs are properly vaccinated said they are not coming into contact with unvaccinated dogs. there are so many diseases we see in the city. parvo, kennel cough, which is easily spread. i think that many are requiring notice, so this would be just one more. supervisor mar: thank you. supervisor wiener: a conversation about a more robust program, and they go door-to- door, and it pays for itself

because you are dramatically increasing the number of dogs that are licensed. >> thank you. supervisor wiener: any other departments? yes, ms. ballard. >> that afternoon, supervisors. sarah ballard from the recreation and parks department. i just want to speak to this issue of the number of dogs and flag the notion that we understand that the golden gate recreation area is contemplating having regulations, as well, as was discussed by the supervisor in a previous hearing that he is working closely with them, it seems important from the department perspective to extent possible to have those run in parallel tracks, so if there is a different number, you may see dog walkers using the city property over ggnra property, particularly on park property. supervisor mar: my understanding

is there a maximum number of dogs is 6? >> my understanding is that they are pursuing six, but they have not gone past their rulemaking. supervisor wiener: i have spoken with them, and they will be putting in their own dog walker legislation. they like this legislation, but they were pretty firm that they would go no higher than seven. ok. did you want to -- ok, we will open it up for public comment. if there is anyone else who wants to fill one out, we have them. public comment will be two minutes. ok, page, robert it, sally, renée, gilbert, kathy, and the lindsay.

>> hi, i am page. i run a dog walking company. i am certification. i also teach pet cpr and first aid, and i work over at the spca in the reactive dog program. first of all, ms. katz said that they do not train dogs. that is true. but if you have ever seen cattle dogs, they really do help. they would not have such a time if they did not have an assistant job helping them. my daughter is an assistant. gracie. she helps me a lot set the tone, so i personally appreciate having her with me, and if she counted as an extra dog, that would be money that i am missing out of the money i am making.

i am not getting rich, as opposed to what ms. katz may think, and i do prefer to do only six dogs. however, just this morning, i got a call from a woman who was also a dog walker, and her car got totalled, and she needed people to take dogs on. i took two of her dogs out, and someone else took others out. with the help of other dog walkers, she was able to dent the dogs walked, with the aids, and i would not have the opportunity to do that for another dog walker if it were only 46 dogs. said thank you. supervisor wiener: thank you very much. next speaker. >> i am rob. i am a total of who let the dogs out dog walking. we employ seven individuals, and

they spend their money in san francisco. i could not have given a better introduction of the stakeholders today. it is really gratified that you understand the issues. supervisor, it made me happy to hear that. just quickly, i wanted to address the maximum number of dogs issue. you know, a discussion of how many dogs maxxam a group can have is arbitrary in certain ways because it is not really the number of dogs. it is the person who is handling the dogs, and if you have someone who is appropriately trained and experienced, they can walk eight dogs easy. it is not an issue. conversely, if you just have one or two dogs -- job -- dogs that are aggressive, one dog off leash is a problem, you know? so is not the number of dogs, it

is the experience of the trainer and the regulations. i think you guys have a great way of addressing the training and experience requirements to assure that people walk dogs and san francisco appropriately. our seven walkers walk 6 to eight dogs. they are all experienced. when they have eight dogs, those that have been together for years, they can do it safely. and if you arbitrarily set a limit at six, it is simple economics. you reduced 25% of our revenue, lower our profits, we make less, we have to charge our clients more, and that is how it is. clients spend about $20 per day for dog walking, and that is about $400 per month, and if you limit it to 6, the price will go up in excess of $400 to $500, so i appreciate your understanding

of the issue, and i appreciate your consideration of the eight dogs. supervisor wiener: thank you. thank you very much. >> good morning, supervisors. thank you, supervisor wiener, for crafting the regulations which formally recognize the profession of dog walking. i am not a dog walker, but i have often used the services of dog walkers and spent a lot of time with my dogs in the park, and i have got to say, for example, and i am here really to speak only about the limit on the number of dogs, and no matter how much of a dog whisper a dog walker is, when those dogs come out of the car and come into the dog park and scatter and do their business, it is virtually impossible to see and

act on nine dogs that are pooping at the same time, can i also agree with ms. katz that pointed up the other problems you have when you have a large number of dogs, so i would suggest that the regulations recognize some of these issues and that the number be limited a little more. supervisor wiener: they keep. ms. stevens? >> hi, sally stevens, sf dog. the route the years, we have stress six or seven dogs per dog walker. when dogs are not under control or when pooper is not picked up, it reflects badly on all of us, whether you are a dog walker or a dog owner. less than six i do not think it's economically feasible at all, because the price will go up, and it will price people out

of being able to afford dog walkers, so any more than that i do not think will work, between six or seven is good. seven is a nice compromise. we can accept age, because it is better that the process goes through, because right now we have in affinity. six or seven, seven may seem like a nice compromise, and we could lip -- live with aids, but the important thing is to get this process going so that the dog walkers are legitimized and so we have more control. supervisor wiener: thank you. supervisor mar: supervisor cohen? supervisor cohen: what is sf dog? >> we are a group.

:o -- supervisor cohen: this may be silly, but what did we do before we had dog walkers? >> perhaps they were left outside. this is not the way to approach this. as a result, when we have now is a much more organic understanding and better understanding of dog behavior and the importance of exercise and socialization for dogs, for them to be better behaved and everything else, so the well exercised a dog is a well behaved dog, and everybody says that, but it is true, and a well socialized dog is a good dog. supervisor cohen: i also hear them saying that about children, if they go to preschool. >> a lot of people like in dogs

to about a two-year-old or three-year-old. supervisor cohen: thank you. supervisor mar: often, people are repeating that there are more dogs than children in san francisco and that sometimes they are treated better than children, especially those from lower income neighborhoods. i just wonder if you could talk about how important dogs are to the people that they live with and how you respond to people who are putting that out. >> yes, a lot of families that have children also have dogs, so they are not mutually exclusive. i think the importance of dogs in the community, it is a source of community. people pressmen to san francisco for a job, may be out of college, their first job is here, and they do not know anybody, and they walk their dog, and they meet people. dogs can be a great way of

creating community in a modern urban setting for a lot of people. san francisco as a very transient population as the a lot of people come here to get jobs and have a kid, and then they moved out to the suburbs, so the demographics of the city, you have a lot of seniors who raised their kids in the 1960's, and now they are still here in the empty nest, so they have dogs for companionship and exercise. there are couples that are starting out, and they are a way of providing community. supervisor mar: 80. supervisor wiener: ok, miss, and the answer. >> thank you, supervisor for getting this through finely. i really wanted to speak about

the number of dogs. i have been walking my own dogs in the city park for years, and i have watched the number of dogs go from a handful to the hundreds we have now, and my feeling is that the smaller number is better. i have hired and used a dog walkers several times, and i would never send my dog with someone who took more than six dogs. i think form a safety standpoint, in the car, in the park, you know, it is very hard to clean up after that many dogs piling out of a car. i also a frequent the park. i am there twice a day, and the main complaints you here are about the dog walkers. now, there are some very excellent dog walkers, but when people see them piling out of the car and scattering, that seems to be a red flag for a lot of people, dog owners as well as

the non dog owners, and i think our positions as dog guardians is to be as responsible, and i want our professional dog walkers to reflect well on the rest of us so we do not get a bad name, so i am for six or seven. thank you very much. supervisor wiener: think you. mr. gilbert. >> good afternoon, supervisors. i am victor gilbert. i have made a lot of calls to supervisor wiener's office, i am sure you know my name, and i am the owner of a condominium directly across the street from the douglas dog park, and i have spoken to your office, and i do not know the procedure. i want to submit a plan of where my house is to the park.

the dog walkers are fine, but i feel very betrayed by the system and so forth, and i am not born to be popular with you, supervisor, but i feel betrayed by you because i have made so many calls to your office, and they asked me to i am, and i say "and victor dilbert," and they come back and say you are in a meeting. this has become emotional for me. i have lived there since 1995. it is at par, very much under the radar, and i would also like to reform it. it is from elizabeth kalkstein, and it is signed by a woman, douglas playground. they modified the playground, and it says in a san francisco department of city planning categorically exempt from environmental review. now, when you put an apartment building up in san francisco,

you have to -- may i take a bit longer? supervisor wiener: yes, please continue. >> you have gone to others. i do not know. the type is as small, but nobody has consulted us, and i am deeply, deeply offended by it, and i have sent to this data through the supervisors -- to the supervisors through alisa. if you look at the map, it is like a canyon. from my living room to the floor of the park is 70 feet, and the acoustics are terrible. i have barking day and night. i am not criticizing the dog walkers. one lady said that when the dog scatter, and from my window, you cannot conol