this is a great interest to the union bargaining. about 10% of the people in sciu are in the jobs now program. it is kind of a trading program that is entirely in horne's for those individuals to be in contemporary exempt position. it is appropriate to be temporary. >> so that the people watching in the audience that may not know what an as-needed employee is, is there a definition of what it means to be an as-needed employee? hand in terms of comparing that employee to a permanent employee, what are the

differences in terms of the benefits or protections that the employee has? >> the charter has several categories of exemptions employees. typically, what we consider as- needed employees, there will the people that are intended to be used for non-career jobs. we know they are going to the people in those categories cannot receive, under the health service system, medical benefits or retirement benefits. the are limited. let's say the department is using employee to back a long medical leave.

they typically will have a turnover in the individual filling the position. we do have an agreement where we developed a medical program for as needed employees. they are eligible for the number of hours they work. is the same program that is used. >> are they needed protection in terms of termination of employment? dodge the labor agreement provides that. the labor agreement does provide that they have due process. they can be released for any legal reason. obviously, there are certain reasons.

the job ends, it is not working out. >> has a fair to say that you don't want as-needed employees to be as-needed in terms of work of a permanent employee? they are temporary, they are there for a limited time. is that the concept? ha there will always be, in certain area, a need for as- needed employees.

for example, we clear the backlog of cases. there is a balance, you can never this continue as-needed employees. >> do we have a situation where someone is being treated as an as-needed employee when they should be a permanent employee? >> there are situations in which if we had enough condition, authority, and funding that he would seek to try to create more positions and do that analysis. there has been a longstanding committee with the as-needed and provisional use. some of the challenge there has to do with the position of authority. >> i would imagine there is a benefit to having permanent

employees doing certain work because then you don't have to train people time and time again, you have someone who knows the job that does have developed relationships. i am trying to understand the benefits. >> has a noted, there is loyalty to the job. they are committed to the employer and they have a history that the bill sonority. from the employer's perspective , what of the challenges is

that it does not allow them to convert simply from as-needed status. we're being audited that involves an examination process. one of the challenges, we have seen this in-house -- recently with civil service commission's. to create permanent positions, we have an eligible list. sometimes the people doing the job may not be reachable. they will not ultimately be the individuals that get the job. it might be a reason why the departments or the individuals are not pushing to quickly move those positions. >> it would seem to me that if someone has been doing the job for a number of years, is there

any consideration given for that? you'd think that they were good enough to do that job for a bit of time, so it will become permanent? >> hit will require the test for what is required to do the job successfully. people don't fear the way -- we will ask the unions for flexibility, for example. they can hire from not the first three on the list. we can have it to give the department of the ability to choose a person that did not examine well but has been doing their job. >> i know that we have people

here to speak on this item. one of the concerns i have, i recognize the use of as-needed, i don't want to see a situation where someone is that kind of employee for a long time when they should be a permanent employee. as a matter of fairness, it deprives the worker for the projections. i also worry about the interaction with the public. i think there is a benefit to the permanent status. >> it is beneficial to the employees and the employer, to have hot regular employment. we should be looking at that, and identifying if they have the resources in the ongoing need to

create online positions. that individual may not be the one they gets the job, at one of the things that will look back, a permanent full-time employee in the miscellaneous groups are about 46% of them in san francisco. 62% lived in san francisco. it is more like the people and have the jobs are more likely -- and they are local, and they are more able to take a job that will give them the experience that will lead to permanent. they are not allowed to be given a leg up, if you will. it is supposed to be open and fair to all comers. it becomes a challenge which we can certainly talk to the commission about whether they

would consider legal amendments. >> i think this is something that we need to continue to monitor. frankly, i am learning about this issue and i think it is appropriate for us to have this discussion in the context of over time. part of the answer when it comes to over time is making sure you have the proper staffing. and the issue is directly connected to that. nothing about overtime is, it is not the workers' fault that they worked overtime. i think that over time comes down to a mainly a management issue. that is why we need to manage the staffing in such a way that we have the right level of staffing. i would hope that the civil service commission looks at this issue when they want to become permanent, because i think that

it is consistent with good public policy and fairness to take into consideration the fact that the employee has been doing that job. >> people that have been doing the job will do better on the exam, but we have he circumstances where it doesn't work out. >> just a quick clarification, i think he talked about the federal jobs now programs in the proportion of the as-needed employs related to that program? >> is a successor to the federal program, and the thing that you could have more data on that. i think we have 282 people that are full-time, as-needed under the local program.

>> as opposed to how many in total? >> it looks to be about 10% of the total. supervisor avalos: are we allowed to take information on how many are minorities, women? are we seeing disproportionate numbers of folks that are as- needed they have a former they don't have to check in if they're male, female or ethnicity. we certainly could look at that.

the building trades have one demographic and predominantly male. can't give out information that would identify any individuals. >> i don't always think it is necessarily accidental that people get -- is a question

about the civil service examinations. they have the experience -- in terms of having qualifications for the job, it could be language barriers that make it difficult for success on the examinations. >> we had a large examination that included reporters. while we have been writing, we have the questions read the them. by director of recruitment told me that the proctors for the exam noted that there are many people that were not able to follow the verbal directions

like "don't turn over your booklet yet." it is possible that for the short term they can be successful, but it would not be responsible for us to ensure that they have the ability to do the full scope of the job in a way that is safe. that is the balance. it is our obligation to not create unnecessary barriers, and we are involved in doing that. we're only testing for what is required to be successful of the java upon entry. supervisor avalos: i agree that this is an area that might be worth looking at. you say that we have to have a

level playing field for that process, and perhaps there are ways that there can be added support for some of the employees. perhaps there can be a partnership in making that come about the type of training or support. supervisor chu: thank you, supervisor avalos. why don't we open of the items for public comment. i already -- will read a number of cards. [reading names] >> i just wanted to thank you

for holding this hearing today, but i like to -- would like to yield my time . >> i know this is a hearing on overtime, this story does relate to. i am an as-needed worker for the city and county of san francisco. i have worked for 10 departments over the past 21 years doing the same job testing technician. along with my permanent supervisors, we administer the exams that are the bedrock of civil service employment in the city. a large number of people did not get employment because of this merit system. there are 2600 of us that a temporary exemption as-needed workers. we heard about this position from a friend, colleague, or relative.

you will find a number of relatives in the higher ups among us. my job details very sensitive work. he we adhered to high standards of confidentiality, we protect materials, and sometimes even score exams. if anything goes wrong, and exam might have to be thrown out with a cost to the city of up to $100,000. sometimes the exam days are long and we get over time sometimes. the current system has built than a literal that -- dead- end. with no kaiser-type health care and a limit on the hours we can work. in my classification, no path to be equal or permanent in the city. his head is not an employer-

employee relationship. [chime] >> good morning, commissioners and the board of supervisors. i work in san francisco. i have been working as a health worker since 2004 and i have some proof here. every year, i have been hired as needed. i have been there the years. and every year, we will get the position. i was blessed last year that there was an opening.

we have to take a civil service examination, and i was blessed and was able to pass the civil service examination, but my point here is that i have been working there eight years, and that passed the examination. one question is not pertaining regarding our job. we don't have security or health benefits. we don't have a schedule. they give us -- in sonority, we

have the -- [chime] we have a lot of additional work. supervisor chu: thank you. >> i'm an imaging technologist at san francisco general hospital. i am in a group of eight individuals that work full-time, because we are limited to the 1040 hours. there is a new group of individuals i come to this position. they replaced the individuals, right now there are eight

individuals coming in to replace us. as of june of this year, i no longer have a job. we are all highly trained people. we were in a specialized field. heavy equipment is unique to each of medical center and it is lumber to build relationships with colleagues. i think it is an injustice to the citizens of san francisco. supervisor chu: if i can ask folks to hold their applause. >> i am an artist that lives in san francisco and i am working for the san francisco arts commission. so that they can submit to grant

proposals for how cultural projects. they continue to keep the city vibrant. you may have seemed the trend in oakland. as other opportunities have been made available, i have chosen to remain loyal to my job with the city because i believe i have been frustrated with the lack of loyalty and appreciation for my work. the trend in a dramatic increase in workers' is problematic. there are three of us in my program including myself that will be laid off. i'll be leaving at the end of june. i think that this is bad for the workplace and it is bad for city services and how we interact with our constituents.

i think it is bad for the arts community as a whole. how want to thank you for hearing us. i am not sure if you are aware of the actual extent of this problem, and i appreciate any efforts you might have to make a permanent track available. supervisor chu: i will call a few more names. [reading names] >> 5 -- term permanent civil service employee that has worked for the department of public health for 30 years. i currently work incentives as the general and i want to say that the growing use of as- needed employees makes it increasingly difficult to provide quality services to the people of san francisco. i want to submit a letter that was written by another long-

term employees. somebody who has worked 25 years in the department of public health. to each of the supervisors on the committee, which talks about a particular situation in the tenderloin, housing and urban health provides a good program and they have rotated the same way every six months. there is a case manager working with people that were formerly homeless. you need to establish a relationship with somebody. they are hired as needed. from being on the labor- management committee to study this, one of the things that seems apparent to me is that the

city has a very clear policy to block permanent acquisitions and as a result, her department are hiring people as-needed. there won't improve our rec positions. and continue to risk having a lower quality of service. >> good morning, i have been working as a custodian and in the city and county of san francisco since 1999. i have been working for many

years. our department has been working for 7-12 years. some of us passed the test but are not on a less. they cannot get a position. english is a little bit not passed the test, but they still prepare for taken the test. i would like to say that to a co-worker whose english is not that good, they have a good work experience. they have a good ceo -- skill

for [unintelligible] it is difficult for them because they are illegal in this country. i wish that next time, who have an opening for that kind of position, can you say that they really spend a lot of the time and your, that they have a chance for permanence. we only are working for 1000 for the hour.

>> i am speaking as a retired member home. i am honored and privileged to be with the great members of my union. you are correct, supervisors, and making a correlation between the problem of overtime and the as-needed problem you have heard us testify to. i don't want to use my timme in between and over use of overtime and an under-use of individuals. it is so unfair that these workers be stuck at step one, permanently. that they be eligible for health insurance with few exceptions, with no prospect of advancements despite years and years of hard work delivered to our service,