that will necessitate encroachment as well. >> i think the threshold question is whether the encroachment in itself is appropriate, and the second question is why we continue did today, which is if there is going to be an encroachment, is the gate going to be in compliance? i thought the threshold question was satisfied at the last hearing, but i could be wrong. >> i believe that. >> thank you. 5 i think the best course of action would be to uphold the permit on the condition they get a building permit, which would have to be reviewed by dpw fire, so if you could do that, because it is going to be reviewed anyway, and whatever process they may have already gone through, but they may have to go through again as part of the of a permit. at the end of the day i think we are going to get a proper complying gate. i saw occupancy load this morning, and to answer your question is it going to make major changes, i think it is going to be to the threshold of

the smaller gates and the fact that it has to move back 3 feet. it looks like that. it is not approved yet, but i believe it might be back. >> gate open, did close, -- gate closed? rice is currently open -- >> it is currently open. >> limited hours. >> i think that is a good idea. i would not be concerned about the safety. a small gates does not have accessibility, so it is probably better that it is open and close -- than closed. there are people who do not have a problem if it is open. >> currently there is a likelihood of requiring it to be

pushed back 3 feet. if it were open, it's the door were swinging into the public right-of-way in a way that could potentially -- if the door were swinging into the public right- of-way in a way that could provincially create a hazard. is that the problem? >> not really. if you're going to do a permit, dpw for for her you push it back. -- prefer you move it back. i would not be too concerned. good >> we can hear from the appellant. >> thank you from hearing from me today -- for hearing from me today. i have a few questions regarding everything that was brought up. no. the reviews already supposed to happen? i thought we did worth the reviews already supposed to happen? -- weren't the reviews already

supposed to have been? according to the appropriateness, i am also questioning the legality of it. it has actually been a legal -- illegal, and the door handle is currently 5 feet tall, 5 feet high, so it is not a wheelchair accessible, and that would have to be changed. the gate is requested to be open from 8:00 until 5:00 p.m., but for the last three months i have been keeping records of when it has been closed, and i have just put a piece of paper on the light box so you can see all of the notices. i have sent an e-mail each time it has been a close, son it happened when i needed to be taken to the hospital, -- when a

woman needed to be taken to the hospital. i am requesting if you are going to leave the gate and have opened hours that they start earlier in the morning so they do not have to be stressed out as to whether they have to be open and opened later in the evening. my friends who drives me do not get off work until 6:00, and that is when they drive me to go grocery shopping, so how about 7:30 until 10:00 p.m. commo, sog that is appropriate for my needs? who is responsible for the decision today? how am i able to follow this? what am i able to do to gain more access? i do not know how the system works. if the notice posted next to the

gates regarding leaving it open aid until five -- 8:00 until 5:00 or not there, would it have been left open during the day? the rally has not been violated since the gate has been opened during daylight hours. there is another tenant who requested keys because of their disability, and it has been two weeks, and they still have not received a key. goothey were told someone else s the keys and they have not been able to get a key. where is the lock box? we have not been told. i actually have a lot of new things to ask. >> your time is up. does the permit holder like to speak, your time is not up yet.

you are a member of the public. we are going to hear that in a minute. first we need to hear from the permit holder. please step forward. >> i am dennis flynn, and we have opened the gates from 8:00 until 5:00 as requested. we have never had it closed eyes of my knowledge. that alley is the no parking zone. -- we have never had it closed as of my knowledge. that alley is the no parking zone. goowe have kept the gate open to comply with requirements, and we do not see a problem with that. >> are you finished? i just have a few questions

following the appellants presentation. it was stated keys were requested but not provided. alas hearing i understood the permit holder would -- at the last hearing i understood the permit holder would provide keys to anyone who requested keys. >> i think they've provided it. i am sure they got it. like how are you sure they got it? >> i am not. >> what can be done? >> i have to see who it is. i am not sure they did not get their keep year ago -- their key. >> i just need accountability on the key. if it was left open, it needs to be done.

if the gate was closed when it was required to do the kept open, who was the person from your company to complain about that? cracks are manager -- >> our manager. >> we were shown a list of times and days when it was not. >> i do not know who is closing in. we open and close it from 8:00 until 5:00. 5 who is the manager? >> there are two. >> of the managers do not respond to the request of the gates are closed, are you the person? >> yes, i have been called directly. i went over and checked it. we make a big effort.

i cannot say the person did not get the key. we have never denied any won a key -- anyone a key. >> you are the permit holder? >> 643 jones. >> now we can take public comment. >> i live in 691 post street. i do not understand how it is mr. flynn controls the keys to the alleyway and not our managers. i applied approximately a day after the last hearing for keys to the gate and the back door. i have been assured i will get them in the next week or two.

there is another issue. in the letter i am told it is mr. flynn who controls the keys. this cannot be. it is our building. we are the tenants affected by it, not mr. flynn. goothe other issue i would likeo bring up is the gate open or closed. i have not watched it, but two weeks running, the gate is closed. your order is affixed to the wall. it says seven days a week, and the manager does not work on the weekends, so the gate is closed. gi want to ensure your order is so vague. thank you.

-- is obeyed. thank you. >> any other public comments? please step forward. >> my apartment faces the alley way. i have also witnessed negate being closed. the whole reason the gate was installed and now is because of safety. i think mr. flynn has done and not to create safety for the alley. good -- has done enough to create safety for the alley. he has a camera to see what goes in and out. there is a private security that comes in in the evening to patrol the building and the alleyway. he says there is a property manager. you're there might be a new one, but for the past two and not -- there might be another one, but for the past two and a half months there was an 0no one on's

streak. he was accosted me for my advocacy about the removal of the gate. -- there was no one on jones street. he has accosted me for my advocacy about the removal of the gate. there is a woman who is disabled who have to crawl out of of 3 ft. space on hurricane to get out of her property that is not handicapped a sensible, so that is how to trehe treats his rest. i believe it was put up on a saturday, and the city is just as responsible for that and for him, so there is no oversight.

everyone wants to fix something that is broken. it should be taken down. there is enough security measures so the rally is safe for everybody, and they installed bars on the lower parts of the windows for the ones who live on the basement and the ones above ground also, so how much safety do we need on the l.a. -- on the alley? this has been my home for 23 years. i know the neighborhood. he does not. people could not even answer the questions about the dates and how it was constructive. goothis is our neighborhood, soi asked that he remove the gate. >> any other public comment?

>> my name is barbara, and i lived at the building is being contested. we are asking for access to the back door, where we have a ramp and we could go in, and it is at street level. if somebody can not walk very well, they do not have to go up fliive stairs to the building. my husband was recently disabled, and he has back "/

very big problem, so this is not a trivial issue. isn't is -- it is a big problem. what is interesting is the old puzzle, who is watching the watchman? the people with the most interested in keeping the gate closed are the people with the keys. the people who need the keys to be able to come and go have to go to mr. flynn and building. it took us over a month to get a request for the key, and we still do not have the keys. it is not an unreasonable situation. good we are still having to deal with getting to food and medical equipment, and it is not possible. we are asking for a permanent solution. we want access to our own building, and we want this to be granted in a way that does

not have to go through so many steps it is almost impossible to get what we need. i am stressing we would like a permanent solution. moving the geithner in -- the gate in 3 feet will solve some problems, but it is not giving us access to our own building. >> do you agree there is a security problem in the l.aalle? >> there has been a problem with people dealing drugs and all that. people do not go back there. >> any other public comment?

the matter is yours. ir>> perhaps in our earlier comment about the threshold for this particular permit, perhaps we should discuss whether we are in agreement as to what the threshold is the reagan -- is. if the situation is as it was painted, the security issues, the drug issues, prostitution issues, and other things but were occurring in the alley, i would be supportive of this taking of a public right of way. leaving it open to me it does

not make sense if one buys the concept in terms of what the security issues are. the technical side of what is being done, the exit way could go over the public way a certain degree. i think they are allowed 12 inches. they can move about 3 feet. it does not matter. and the mechanism is relatively easy to do. those are not issues. the sizing of it, preliminary analysis indicates the existing gate size probably is ok for the occupant loands. it is probably ok for accepting from both buildings.

it is not necessarily ok and terms of ada -- in terms of ada requirements. i am probably buying into the fact that ben ali does have certain issues. and whether it only occurs -- that an alley does have certain issues. what i saw was a cavalier attitude in terms of understanding who has access and being able to come in and out of a public right of way, so i am not sure what to do, whether to revoke this and be able to get somebody's attention or to find some better way of being sure people have access to public right of way.

>> i appreciate those comments. i think the fact of the gate was put in a legally -- put in illegally i found to be a problem at the last hearing. i was thinking we have some consensus on the threshold question, but maybe that is not the case. today when we were talking about non-compliance of the existing gate, i kept thinking, why don't we let them start over

and do everything right, and then we had to go to the threshold question -- is it appropriate to have in the done -- to have it done. am concerned about the key issues. there are some challenges the may never be resolved, so close to concern me. i think a better route may have been to go the more difficult route to, which is to make it no longer a public access l.aalley. i am thinking out loud, and i am unclear right now where i would

go with this, but if i had to decide right now, i would lead to overturning the encroachment. >> doing away with the right to have the gate at all. >> yes, given that it is not an and save space -- not an unsafe space, and people who reside in the building feel safe. those are the people that matter right now. they live there. >> could i just clarify? if somebody has a key, the fact of the gate is open for a couple

hours would be moot. is that correct? >> yes. >> if everybody who felt they haveneed access had a key, it could be close 24 hours a day, and everybody else could open and close it as they came and went. good would that be your understanding? >> unless you need to replace theskeys, but i would allow the permit holder to pose something that would give me greater confidence in having people provide access. we already know dear sensibility of the buildings themselves is limited -- we already know the sensibilities of the building themselves are limited. gwe do not want to create a

situation that i do -- add to inaccessibility. i am willing to hear from the permit holder, how would he assure us of providing appropriate access to the tenants of both buildings? please come forward. >> there are probably 40 tenants in each building. we could give each kennan -- tenant a key when they move in. >> they have been waiting for months. >> we have given out quite a few, but we could give them 100% to every tenant, whether they need it or not. but as the other building.

we have no reason not to give them a key. it keeps people from coming into the building, so there are quite a few people. good and we cannot have security of the police force, and there is a lot of activity. we did think we were going in the right direction, but then anybody could come and go. you could leave. gowe have the design pretty well done. there are some tweaks. >> you currently have security cameras that would expose what is going on in the alley? >> i think so. >> how long have you been doing this? >> six months.

5 i think it would be great if we could use some of the footage of the time during regular -- if you kept the gate open 24 hours and show as the footage on your security cameras and see what kind of activities are actually take place in the l.a. -- -- what kind of activities take place in the alley. what do you think of that? you can look at the tapes. icommissioner hillis: would we e able to see the alley? >> i don't know, it is endless

battle. the tenants want this, then they don't. i don't know what to do any more. we have been cleaning up the alley for years. the cameras do not stop anything. i was called one time because it was open and there was a vehicle there. i took a picture of it and the vehicle backed up and hit me. you are not supposed to park there. president hwang: is it the parking that is an issue or the illicit activities? >> mostly, i would worry about the illicit activities. we do not use it for parking, but it was pretty bad. it is mostly probably during the night. then you have to have labor open and close it and we miss it. president hwang: okay, i just wanted to see if you would be open to that suggestion. that is just my personal point of view. commissioner lazarus: you are

searching for a security without a date? president hwang: gating off a public right of way as a drastic measure. i have understood that it was done for murder nc purposes. they have had it illegal for over a year and are some disability access issues and potentially fire issues. we cannot create another problem that is not resolving a problem. if there is a problem, i want to see the basis for wanting to date in the first place. >> the cameras will not be with. there are a dozen gates in the tenderloin like this, for same reason. president hwang: but here we have people who are in the buildings who are affected that are talking about issues related to disability access, not related to safety. somebody has been in that area 23 years. i have not seen people testify about the gate. and you could have brought them

in. >> the road a lot of letters. we turned the man with the exhibits -- they wrote a lot of letters. president hwang: it is easier for me to hear them. i want to see the serious display that you have to gate off a public right away. vice president fung: i have a question, then, of mr you. commissioners? i am trying to recall, idoes the department review for the reasons behind a closure, which in this instance is the their illicit activities or undesirable activities? >>