that they can take to the entertainment commission and become a nightclub and put at risk these two businesses that have led the rejuvenation of japan town. it is a matter of having all the information before you act. thank you. >>: i have other questions. >>: mr. hillis. >> commissioner hillis: we're kind of the same position we were a couple of months ago. the cinema and the hot springs have been in japantown a long time; they're clearly important to the people and businesses in japan town. there is no reason not to bring additional people who haven't

been to japan town. but it cannot disrupt the businesses that are there. your sound person and their sound person need to figure it out you don't want us to do that because you will not like the outcome. i support the continuance. and come back with something that works for everybody. >> president fong: public comment is all finished. thank you. commissioner borden. >> commissioner borden: i've been to pa'ina loung. the food is great, the entertainment is great. i've

been to kabuki also, it's great. we really want to be able to support all the businesses but we need the support all businesses. there needs to be a sound study, a couple of different determinations. seeing it would level the sound bleeds; turning it up to see a what point it bleeds, gives us a base line. also having one sound report. i am not a sound expert. i do know what is too loud. we want to support pa'ina loung

and all existing businesses; we don't want to support pa'ina at the expense of the ot her businesses especially when you had a citation not to long ago. we need to get to the bottom of the soundproofing issue before we can move to the next step. what you are hearing is the desire to support the pa'ina loung but figure out a way to support it while protecting the other businesses. i don't know how we can direct that the study happens.

that is something that maybe staff can help us on. in the past we have required to the conditional use process soundproofing and the like. how can we do that in the continuance process? >>: excellent question. it has been pointed out that there may be problems with the report given to you. >> commissioner borden: right. >>: we do have acoustical engineers who can come to some conclusions that are identical and determine what the impacts are in working with the academic commission to make sure the proposal does not violate the noise ordinance. >> commissioner borden: as you know at this level, you can keep the music below those levels. it seemed to me like a

no-brainer analysis. >>: there were a couple of different things that were done, reorient the speakers, move the stage, also soundproofing done to the interior. i have not seen the building permits i don't know exactly what was done. >> commissioner borden: if i could ask one quick question to the project sponsor. was it done after the most recent complaint? >>: we took the extra precaution. >> commissioner borden: looking at the reports, i don't anything more from you thank you.

what you're hearing is we really want you to figure this out. we want to support locally owned businesses as diverse, interesting music with a diverse artist community supporting it. we cannot do so without assurance that we will not impact existing businesses. >>: you guys have done a lot of work. it's a nice establishment. it looks very nice. a lot of work has been done to mitigate the sound leak. you are doing a great job there. the promotion is working well. when a party is going you have a tendency to turn up the sound, that's a little bit of what is happening here. but your location this is between a rock and a hard place location;

you cannot ask for a more difficult challenging business to put next to a spa and movie theatre, this movie theater is one of the unique movie experiences in the west coast; this is a premium experience and i don't want to jeopardize that. on the other side there is a family wanting to open a business and be rewarded by their success. i want to see you continue to operate. ultimately the proof is going to be in the pudding. your literal neighbors need to come back with trust and satisfaction. i recognize that some of the work has been done, maybe more work can be done. more time can elapse so that we can review this with more time and see if they have solved some of the

problems. by nature i happen to be there. i walked in when you were performing. there was some, it was not excessive. i did have to take a phone call. i stepped outside. i understand the concern of the neighbors. i would support a continuance. i want you to keep going. i was curious if you can come back out and maybe do some either random testing or scheduled testing.

>>: i want to be conscious of staying in our lange and you in your lane. this is an unusual permit application. i have questions that i encourage you to consider or the entertainment commission. whether you want upon something to the entertainment commission or not at a future meeting. i have no horse in this race. i want to point out a few things. first, i've heard the comment about noise, 10 p.m. i would want to know a couple of things if i were you.

the question is, where do we want these guys in the regulatory fold? oddly enough a lot of people complain about people seeking permits not wanting to get entertainment permit. i often think it is better to get people into the fold and regulate things otherwise you leave things up to the police department. you can say the heck with the process; we'll have recorded music from 10 to 4 a.m. they can do that every night. they're not breaking your rules or ours.

the neighbors would have to call the police. there is no noise but these folks could operate. two, a couple more questions i am not clear about. i am a little bit confused about interference with the spa when i think the spa closes at 10. >>: we never got a specific time. >>: these are just questions. if this space were soundproofed with the neighbors be for or against? the stuff to figure out what

people want. do they want to be happy or right? i saw a sign as a place of entertainment and we say it's fine and they never call back. others call for some other reason. i asked the question that i heard a couple of times the word nightclub. for the record, if someone wants to do that they may do that. i just want people to be honest. those are questions that i had.

eventually, if you ever all of you feel like taking a middle ground, think you're concerned about that you cannot resolve here, we would love for you to stop by. the point is we all work together to try to make everybody happy. if you come down and say, hey, these are our concerns which is different than maybe approving or denying or continuing, could you address this? you would find a lot of deference to you and your responsibilities under the planning code. >> president fong: thank you. good questions and observations. >> commissioner wu: i feel frustrated and confused as a commissioner to hear different sides of the story. it is unclear what the real story is.

i place a lot of faith on the long-term organizations there. i want to support pa'ina, it's a great idea and very welcoming. we want to see people coming to japan town, spending their money and staying different hours of the day. i want assurance that there will not be noise bleed issues to the neighbors. we want to work as good neighbors. i like the idea of approaching the independent commission to help us because i don't want to wind up two months with two conflicting reports after everyone spent a lot of money. that is my concern now. >> commissioner antonini: i would suggest the continuance and i will throw the date of march 28 and i will tell you why. i would like to see new sounds

studies done to the satisfaciton of the kabuki people as well as to the satisfacito nof the pa'ina people. if there is no agreement that is something we can decide; i feel we are dealing with reputable sound exports. should be able to come up with common ground. if mr. saltar would agree and the other engineer would agree, these are measurable. if we get a report that says they were generating sound at the level of 94 or 101 decibels in the pa'ia and the desired

amount is -- in kabuki or the cinema. we would know what the number should be exactly. it would allow time let's assume the tests were done and refined at the level at the adjacent theaters and the spa is still unacceptable will give the pa'ina time to correct the issue. that is the only issue. what i'm hearing is one thing: sound bleed. i am not hearing anybody objecting to the pa'ina, their entertainment, their business. i don't want to jeopardize the businesses that predated the

pa'ina lounge and businesses that are important for japantown. and when you have customers that say that they could not hear the movie or hear the noise that interfered with their experience. maybe some of the testing should be done during the time there are patrons in the theaters to make sure that we shoot the sound as high as we can possibley in the pa'ina and have patrons in the theaters at the time and find out if anyone experiences any noise. i know that it is a little bit of a hazard when you have a business and people are coming in.

it certainly would be assuring to you that patrons were not disturbed. that is my motion, and if there is a second, let's hear what the commissioners have to say. >>: the 28th has been cancelled. >> commissioner antonini: you need more time? less time? april. first week of april? >>: can we ask for a later date than march 28th? >>: april 11 is a good one. >>: i will second.

>>: i will like to be sure that the inspector and the entertainment commission is appropriately involved in this. >>: that is part of the motion. >>: inherently what pa'ina is asking is go beyond the limit that they recognized. >>: we are not giving that today. we are continuing the item. do you want to restate the motion? >>: the item is continued until april 11 with the understanding that independent

sound engineers from both pa'ina loung and sundance kabuki theater will be involved in testing and determine the amount of sound generated within the kabuki theatre for the adjacent spa at levels that could be anticipated in the pa'ina loung in the range of say 94-101 decibels which is a top-level that is possible to be generated. if it is good there, it will be good at lower levels. the other part of the motion is that any kind of mitigation taken should have another round of testing to determine what the levels are.

>>: with all due respect i don't think that 94-101 was the range. maybe we could use the language of " to the point of no disturbance to the spa or the cinema". >>: if we are testing at 74, it has to be high enough noise. >>: we would be determining the maximum level. >> commissioner antonini: the maximum expected level of noise that could be generated by activities in there. >>: commissioner sugaya. >> commissioner sugaya: i would like to pursue that a little bit. my concern is that the project sponsor went ahead in light of the independent commission's 74decibel limit to push beyond that.

there is no excuse to me for having done that. that is why the sound engineer is here to say we pushed it to the other side of the wall. also the number of violations between the time we heard it and continued it and today also does not give me a lot of confidence. i feel that one of the issues with the sound testing i think is -- and the sound experts can take this into consideration when they do their test because i think that is where we are headed, at different frequencies there are different impacts on the other side of the wall.

if i'm sitting in the theater are having a massage in the spa, the higher frequencies i may not be able to hear. the lower bass sounds are going to come through at the same decibel level. is not only a matter of oh, it's 94 one side and 36 or 50 on the other or whatever. that may be fine with the meter. it is a different situation is to what type of sound penetrates through the walls and through the soundproofing scenario. that has to be taken into consideration also, the frequency levels. i do know we are talking about the project sponsor having one engineer and you notice here in the spot having another engineer and all that,

and having the engineer for the entertainment commission involved in some way or whether the case is that we all get together and hire one firm. that maybe another way to go. i would leave it up to the entertainment commission, to design, set up the scope of work for the engineer or engineers who could do this testing work. >> president fong: commissioner moore. >> commissioner moore: i assume the majority of people sitting in this room know that mr. saltar is a person to go to; over a large period of time, he would be the man as an

independent expert witness or as of this moment associated with the other side who could not only tell us what building performance creates different noise levels. or noise transfer. i would have to ask that given his expertise is judgment would guide me and perhaps this commission as an independent expert. it is about not just noise transfer; also objectively looking at the performance and the workup of the building to respond to additional noise levels.

so in the future they can perform at a level acceptable to either side. changing from what it is to what is desired to be. and what is possible with an older structure. it will determine how much it can be. is a science on its own which results in being tested by the entertainment commission with its instruments. given the limitations of the existing building type and retrofit, and the money that the new applicant would have to spend in order to have this happening within the room. -- that would be a proper summary

of what i believe we should be looking for. commissioners you have what we need to do. i don't have a horse in either race. i am supportive to see a new venue to properly operate within the space available to be there but it needs to be able to perform based on technical requirements and all the others. i need to hear from an expert that it's doable and sanctioned by the entertainment commission by the rules described to us. i'm sorry, mr. -- is there additional comment? >>: i would like to add to what you said is that the kabuki building owner - and

i'm sure the theater and the spa would agree to make sure that we will work hand-in-hand with the pa'ina lounge, keep them fully informed. and the entertainment commission because they will ultimately decide what we can do. mr. saltar will not sit in a closet. >> commissioner moore: i am interested to see mr. saltar step out as an expert. with an overlay, too close a tie to your clients. he is an expert,

many decades. he has worked in this community, state of california. >>: i understand. thank you. >>: the way that i work is i'm very open and honest. if the measure is on level i want to share with everybody. i'm a biased. i work with entertainment people and neighbors. if i continue to be involved this project that would be the spirit that i carry on my work. >>: thank you. >> commissioner hillis: ultimately what i look forward is the entertainment commission -- you limited to 74 dbs.