my name is brendestobin you got close and thank you for the apology and i want to thank on behalf of the law library, i think that in times when the money is short that is the time that we need to expand the law library, especially now, you know the 50th anniversary, i think that we should be thinking about the fact that the type of justice that he receives should not be connected to the amount of money that you have. and i can tell you a a sole practitioner i can no longer afford west law in my home office than i can fly. and the guidance and the knowledge of the law librarians is critical to my ability to be able to do the amount of probono work that i do, to be able to serve some of the populations that i serve. half of, there must be dozens of cases where i would have been wasting a frightening amount of time on google

scholar trying to figure out what cases were still relevant and what cases have been over ruled and times that i would have gone off or down entirely the wrong path of research, but for the guidance of the librarians and so i would just have to urge you to really think about the type of justice we want to have in this city. and how difficult even for someone with a law degree to wind their way through the pitfalls of our legal system and if we don't make a serious commitment to having a very robust, law library, i think that we are failing ourselves in a very grievous way. and i would like to point out there is a lot of talk about the civil gideon that the people should have some sort of assistance when they are facing civil case and right now for most people all that they have got is the law library and as the times being as hard as they are, there are more and more people who cannot afford an attorney and more and more

attorneys who cannot afford west law or any real space for a paper library. that is all that i have got to say. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, i'm julet,, ai lawyer and a former member of the reference team of the library, i could say 100 things about the indispensebility but i will limit myself to a few examples of all of my resources cannot replace the books by the degree that the city districts by a third. the need for 30,000 square feet is real and failure to house the law library necessarily results in a fracture of the connection not being able to be available to the public. on-line resources are still

very much in need of development and every data base that the law library describes to has different ways that the materials can be accessed and retrieved and they are not as intuitive as books. for example, if you want to print something you have to hit save and cancel until you can get to a place where you can print. it is not really the way that it works in books. furthermore, the organization of the on-line resources needs a lot of development. there are problems with just being able to view a table of contents, for example, on-line. you have to do 100 clicks just to get an at a glance view that you would get in just a few seconds by turning a few pages. also index is an important resource that the lawyers use and litigants use to conduct their research and very often, the index is not even available on an on-line source. >> more over, more importantly,

a popular on-line data base does not replace a popular book in the collection and so no space is saved with on-line resources, often it is just duplicated in an attempt to meet demand, this takes me to my next point is that 30,000 square feet is the magic number that was driefd based on the number of volumes in the collection and the linear space needed. >> thank you. appreciate it. next speaker, please? >> good morning, my name is michael oconoll. >> could you pull the microphone down closer? >> sorry. >> good morning, i have a solo practice here in the city. i find the law library essential to my practice. but, i am only a tree in the

forest. so the forest is pretty easy for the supervisors to see, the law library is right over there, and you could take a walk across the street and have a free minute, you will see three things. one is you will see a great many people from the public and lawyers using the resources. in fact often the tables are crowded. the second thing you will see is a library that is now 30,000 square feet and bursting at the seems. and the last thing that it might take a little observation is watching the library staff, and they are incredibly helpful and courteous and never have seen them not help someone who is there for help that gives the time, as an attorney, i find their help, helpful. that is all that i have to say, thank you >> thank you, very much. next speaker, please? >> good morning, my name is

kathleen lord black and i am an attorney licensed in california. my office is in vancouver and that is where i have my immigration practice. when i am in san francisco which is more than half of the time i depend upon the library for office space by the hour, where i could meet with clients in a quiet business-like setting. and i have also believe that this is good income for the library. i have used the law library on market and (inaudible) until its closure. and for many years. but what i did notice is that it was used by many who are not attorneys. and with the cut backs in the courts, and now, cut backs in the libraries, in terms of space and services and budget, that fewer people of the budget

are able to find legal research and information about their rights, say in landlord tenant situations. i agree with the other attorneys that lexus nexus and west law are expensive and it does help us to pass on the savings to our clients if we don't have to subscribe to these services. it is not just attorneys who will suffer if the libraries are chipped away and cut back. and that is the main point that i would like to make, and thank you for considering it. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, mr. chairman and supervisor avalos. >> my name is bill (inaudible) and i have been involved in the legal profession since 1983.

and i served as president of the california state bar in 2010, and 2011. during my career i have been involved in access to justice issues, throughout my career. i volunteered as a young lawyer and as a legal assistant at the legal aid of san francisco. one thing that you know from being a lawyer is that you never can tell what issue was going to come up. what resources you are going to need. and that is why i am here today to oppose the current resolution. and to ask you to expand to at least 30,000 square feet which is what the library needs. i say that based upon my experience with the legal aid society doing research for them, trying to find issues, support for issues whether we are doing impact litigation and also, at a small firm where we just don't really have the resources to have a big library

and we, i have used the library since 1983, we use it today, we get books from the library when issues come up that we can't address any other way. that is why i am here to oppose this for access to justice issues, for pro(inaudible) and for solo and small firm practitioner and other lawyers in the city we really need the full 30,000 for the library, thank you. >> thank you very much, next speaker, please? >> good morning. >> my name is steven miaki and i am a solo practitioner in san francisco as well. rather than repeating what has come before me, i just wanted to say that you know, i do use the law library a lot, practically over 50 or 60 times a year, but more importantly i speak for those people who cannot afford attorneys, because i also work as one of the probono attorneys for the bar association of san

francisco. twice a month, free clinics and i also work for the u.s. district court federal probono project for indegent clients who are representing themselfs in federal courts. the questions that they have, i tell them, this is how you do it, go to the law library and there is a library in the memorial building and go to this book and do this. make the copy of this form and do this. and you know, i can't tell you how many times i have told my clients the people who are too poor to hire attorneys that are trying to do it themselves, to go to the law library. this is an indispensable source for not only the attorneys, and the legal community in san francisco, but for those people who are too poor, precisely too poor to hire attorneys. now they are trying to do things that even attorneys have difficulties do. and so, you know, the importance of a law library for

their project is you know, if they want get access to the law library, they will lose their case. i have one woman right now who would lose her entire kitchen plumbing and bathroom plumbing if she could not have access to the law library, she is doing her own plead ands discovery and i am there every step of the way but she needs the law library to do what she has to do. therefore, i am in concert with my predecessor to ask... >> thank you very much. >> appreciate it. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker, please? >> supervisor and members of the audience, for the record my name is amela lawrence and i have been a citizen of this city and county of san francisco for 44 years. i am here to let this board

know or this committee know that you have a duty to keep this law library opened, and find permanent space for the next 100 years or more. it is my belief that even though we have a room full of attorneys right here, you also have an army of paralegals behind them, that use the law library as a source and means of empowerment. without it, they have nothing. i have watched this city and county destroy the main library and given it to a bankrupt foundation that you are on the hook for $100 million or more according to the papers. i have watched you build a new library where you destroyed 25 percent of the books and i watched you also close several of the peripheral law libraries in the city. we are down to one library. and the main library, at the

veteran's war memorial. you need to find permanent space for it. if you need to find space back in the city hall on the 5th floor, do it. that is where it originally was. if you need to move out the agent foundation by eminent domain, they are in the wrong spot by the way. do it. move the law library back into that building. you need a permanent space of 20,to 25,000 square feet or more for the next 100 years of students, that are not even born yet. that will be using this law library. and i know that i listened to them and (inaudible) on and on and west lawn and that is not the purpose of the law library, those are peripheral functions of it. you have textbooks and cases going back to the continental convention. >> thank you very much. >> i thank you for your time. >> thank you, next speaker, please? >> good morning my name is sally grass i am an attorney

for the san francisco public guardian and public administrator. there are five of us in our office and we are embedded in the office of the public guardian and public administrator which is under the department of aging and adult services. we represent the public guardian and public administrator in all court proceedings. and we don't have the funds in that agency, which is an agency that helps poor and homeless people and people who need help, we don't have the funds there to have a law library or to have practice books that we need to do our work. the law library and its connection of books, practice, books, and all of the collections help us to represent the public guardian and public administrator in taking care of the citizens of san francisco. i also feel that the public

library enables people who can't afford access to the law, to be able to access the law. and they are not able to access it on an electronic method because we have to learn how to research law, electronically. and people can walk into that library and see a book and use a book which is the way that people know how to research. so the law library and its connections provide access to people that would not have access to the law otherwise. also, i think that it is important that the library preserve its historical collection. and that they provide space for the collection to exist. thank you very much. >> thank you, very much. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, subcommit ti, i'm really not sure how to address you, this is my first time in your chambers, my first time speaking to you. buff i felt passionate enough

to come, my name is dennis nava and i am just a joe citizen, a native san franciscoan, and when i found out that the public law library was having issues it really astounded me. i recently because i had questions, and was unable to afford an aattorney, had made use of the public libraries actually several entities in san francisco, which are now finding are no longer available to the public. the market street location has been closed from last march from my understanding and hasting is no longer allowing the public to use the public library and to believe that the city that hosts the 9th kir circuit is not going to have a public library available to look at laws that are governing just astounded me. so i am listening to these attorneys and these para legals and i am like wow, if we are

having problems who am i to stand here and say look is this something that no one else is seeing? this should be our constitutional right, our legal accessibility to look at these laws, whether i have a computer or not. (inaudible) thank you very much for letting me speak. >> thank you. >> next speaker, please? >> my name is charles renthrew and i speak from a different perspective than those who are sole practicenysingers, i have been fortunate to build a very large law firm and a u.s. district court judge and i had access to wonderful libraries and the libraries are sometimes the back bone of the law because it contains what has happened, and what should happen is also, contained in those libraries. i have read the materials that have been submitted to you, i urge that you consider them seriously, that you look at the need for at least 30,000 square

foot in the library and particularly this time, when the courts have more people representing themselves, there is a greater need than before to have a public library accessible to them. and i just urge you and i know that the committee will, consider this very carefully because there are times as we are in today, where some resources have to be expanded for the organizations that meet growing needs and demands and thank you so much. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker? >> good morning. my name is chuck marcus and i am the president of no cal, the president of the association of libraries and speaking on behalf of no cal has been the professional association since 1980. we greatly support the san francisco law library's efforts to get adequate space for their library. and i am also speaking as a faculty services librarian at uc hastings to the law and we

have the closest law library to the courts and we are no longer open to the general public and we refer many to the county law library and due to the same cuts we are no longer able to collect and keep the current information on the law practice materials. and they do not have access to what they collect. due to changes in electronic resources as we move to ebooks, we may be limited by the licenses to provide adequate access to resources to the members of the bar. as such, i want to state that we need adequate space for this county law library. and finally, although we all live in the age of electronic information, it is important to remember the role of the library is a place after the new library of san francisco public library was opened, the number of citizens using the library grew many folds, after

the hastings law library was renovated the students who never set foot came to mingle and socialize and adequate space for the law library offers great potential to the lawyers, small law firms and the population of san francisco under served by the legal establishment. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker. please? >> i am nancy luelen san francisco is a world class city, we have the california state supreme court, the court of appeals and the superior court and we deserve a world class library and we have one now but it needs to expand after the closing of the managnoc branch and you have the space that is available not only to solo such as myself and small law firms but to very many members of the public. i personally have sent lots of potential clients who could not afford my services to use the

law library. as a small business owner, i am tired of paying more taxes for less services. librarians are terrific in this law library at both research and finding information for the attorneys and the public who can't afford the attorneys, the library provides free lunchtime legal advice and speakers to the public and host groups from around the world, most recently china, and justices, and they need to continue that fabulous work. closing the (inaudible) branch was difficult, closing the law library here at civic center would be a tragedy. i urge the supervisors to expand the space that is available to this law library, thank you. thank you. >> good morning, my name is carroll maloy and i am a solo

practitioner. and i graduated from law school in 1987 and worked with the wills and trusts for aids victims at that time. i used the law library at that time to do thorough research to provide adequate services to those unfortunate victims of the aids epidemic. since then, i have worked in the juvenile courts in san francisco across the street. and on my lunch hours i would come over here to the law library where and it is present location and do thorough research because of the size of the collection in the law library to represent the children and their parents of the city of san francisco and maintain their rights. and now i have had wonderful research assistance in my law practice and in my teaching assignment because of the

thorough collection that the adequate 35,000 square feet of space has provided for the city and for its citizens. i urge you to continue the resources that the city is continuing to provide. thank you so much. >> thank you very much, next speaker please? >> good morning my name is winne gow and we are a non-profit organization in san francisco and as you may know we provide free legal services for thousands of low income immigrant communities, family and residents in san francisco each year through our immigrant rights us housing, workers rights and criminal justice program. we do direct services and litigation and other advocacy. i want to agree with everything that has been said about the crucial nature of public

libraries and public access to information being the keystone to any real democracy, i think that is particularly true for the passage of law. on our non-profit legal budget we can only afford a bare bones, we cannot to retain the source and authorities needed to properly represent our clients and do more work, we rely on the public library for those resource and their excellent librarians and staff. it just helps us even the playing field just a little bit against the defense counsel that we are against with those with in-house teams. but we used to use the market street location, and just want to urge the subcommittee to keep from retracting the public resources any further. >> thank you very much. next speaker. >> good morning and thank you for the opportunity to address you this morning on this

important topic. my name is john olverson and i am an attorney in san francisco and i am appearing here today on behalf of 1,000 members of the san francisco trial lawyer association, on this board i sit and also on behalf of the 3,000 members of the consumer attorneys of california who i serve as treasurer, both of those organizations exist to promote the public good through meaningful access to public justice and it is that access to justice for all citizens begins with access to the law itself. that is a concept that is as old as the idea that laws must be available to the public before they will have full force and effect. and it makes sense that if we are to up hold the promise of our democracy that our citizens must have meaningful access to the laws itself and the materials that explain the law and assist them to use it. as evidenced this week in the united states supreme court, san francisco has a proud and well earned tradition of being

on the forefront of issues of great social import. we often sit at the cross roads of what the law ought to be and what it presently is. and essential to those great debates the idea that the law is open to the people. and that there is a place to study this, you have already heard today the members of the public, and adequate law library is essential to the people who have no access otherwise, and access to the law. to help them with their every day issues. and from trying to start a small business of where to go if you receive an eviction notice or many of the small firm practitioners that make-up the majority of the trial lawyers association. and the law library is essential.

i know that have you been... >> thank you very much, sir. >> next speaker. >> good morning, supervisors, my name is mary katherine lerahod and it has been touched upon the city and county of san francisco and being sued in the superior court over the issue of space and leasing of the library. i understand that only there are between 15 and 20,000 square foot plans for possible new branch at the corner of post and van ness. i am here to urge that you consider more funds because the (inaudible) branch on market street was closed. the current 15,to 20,000,al location of funds to lease, 20,000 is inadequate. i am on the san francisco trial lawyer's board of directors, i

represent residential tenants in the city. not everything that is legal is on-line, what is on-line is not free. we need the book. like i said i represent residential tenants i need the law library to research specific issues. and i am not going to charge my clients an arm and a leg to just to find out an issue that i can access in a book. i have on-line access but that not going to replace a paper copy. >> so the san francisco judge is possible that the san francisco judge will order more space, or you as one of the branches of government can allocate more money. i would consider that this committee allocate more money to this space thank you for your consideration. >> thank you, next speaker. >> good morning, my name is jessica, (inaudible) and i too

am a small solo practitioner in san francisco and also volunteer on the free advice clinics i am not going to talk about that i think that it has been covered but i want to give you a couple of concrete examples of how the public library availability has changed. the course of litigation for people who cannot afford lawyers. in my practice, and in my volunteer work, i do both landlord tenant matters and credit card litigation, defense and people have been sued by their credit cards, often the people come to me in both situations and in the credit card situation they have been sued but the amount is small, under $10,000 perhaps even under $6,000. it is not practical for them to have a lawyer in that situation, because even at a reduced rate like most of my clients pay, it is not going to