law library and i direct them to the specific resources and the california forms of pleading and practice and the guides and also, the california continuing education and a bar resources. and in those books, they can find and they have found, the specific motions to vacate the judgments or otherwise get access to what they need. in my landlord tenant work, there was a gentleman who had a default while he was in county jail, and i also sent him to the public law library to get information on setting aside that and directed him to resources that would give him the basis to do so and otherwise he would have lost his home. not all states have their codes on-line. i have to look up things for montana and nebraska not everything is on-line. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker, please?

>> good morning, supervisors my name is jim rodney and i am a trial lawyer and standing in line i realized that i have tried cases in this city for 50 years. i am here today to personify the issue because i followed it all of that time. and i see what... i was here a year ago as co-chair of the justice cab committee to speak to an ordinance and declare that san francisco would be the first council of the united states and that was passed by the finance committee and by the board of supervisors and you are the first one, as a urban entity, a governmental entity to directly address what happens across the street, on the fifth floor, you will see now, if you go there now you will see a line of people, some of them well dressed because six out of ten of the little

class will go to civil court have no lawyer, eight out of ten are imp overishood. >> i know this board and i know that you care about them. and i am representing a woman in sacramento who has what other issues? she lost complete custody of her 14-year-old daughter. she is disabled and has no lawyer her husband had a lawyer. how much does it take for families being unrepresented and sometimes both sides are unrepresented for the department... it is common. what do they do? they go to the law library, i found just in a year and a half. they go to the law library and for a lawyer to see a layperson three years of education, three

years of education, he cannot represent people until we pass the bar and show that we know what we are doing and the reason that it passed this committee was that there were so many people who practiced law on this committee, if you are in the courts as i have, you see them in the halls like the undead, people who bring tear to a stone, yes, they will go to the library and i may be one of the main users of the library, nobody in this room would snatch a law book out of their hand to say not only do you not have a lawyer, but you have no access to the books or the computers and now and go and try to keep your child or your house or your apartment or whatever you might want to do. those are my thoughts and i appreciate it, thank you. >> thank you. next speaker.

>> my name is a besty johnson and i have an a chair for (inaudible) for eight years and i was chief for the aids referal panel and among other things at the volunteer legal service panel and a small claims court judge. i am speaking as a lawyer, obviously, who has worked a lot with people with disabilities. and the people with disabilities need a library, and why? because google is no good. because the internet is no accessible for people for a large population of the city. recent or current lawsuit shows that a lot of the internet is not accessible. they need a place where there is a human being that they can talk to and they need a place where there is alternate media available, that is to say, books and other kinds of things, they also need a place to meet other people and they need a place that has especially other people where they can talk to because as people who are working in the

courthouse, have seen, the volume of staff has decreased amazingly, not just the sequestration but the radical decrease in staff right now. i just want to add that the other thing about it is that is needs to be near the courthouse, and putting a courthouse in place in south san francisco is not any luck to anybody with a disability. thank you very much. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, my name is barry tagala and i am a sole practitioner and i have done civil litigation since 1984, 1989 in the state of california. in my career, i have witnessed the closing of the (inaudible) law library and its consolidation at the van ness library, and what i am concerned about at this point is that the law library itself

is telling you, that they need 30,000 square feet and you are trying to force them into 15,000 to 20,000 square feet. and i am here to say that i think that shoving them into that smaller space is going to substantially reduce the amount of law that the public will have access to. if you were to wipe out a half to a third of the main library in san francisco, you would lose, offers from a through g or a through f, would have to be thrown out, or you would lose all non-fiction books. you would lose some fiction books, the point is that you are going to substantially disrupt the public access to law. we don't know what areas of law will be wiped out, we don't

know how much of it will be inaccessible, i do have access to lexus in my firm as a sole practitioner, but i don't have access to everything that the law library offers and i am a frequent user of it. so i urge you and i think that the law is a very noble and special thing. everybody deserves access to the law. whether you have the internet or not. it would be a traf vestty to wife it out by a half or a third. >> i am going to remind people in the chambers you cannot clap, everyone wants to get two minutes to speak and we want to respect everyone's time to speak. >> good morning supervisors, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you. my name is james moore and i am

the smallest practitioner of law in san francisco. and here i am only speaking for myself, but i would like agree with all of the things that people have said to date on behalf of all of those litigants that i see at the court who have to represent themself and have no access to any other law library. i personally subscribe to west law, i personally have a you know the bare bones books that have you to have in your office to hang out. but i need that library down there. it is frightening to me of think of it closing down, it is frightening to walk into that library and look at the shelves and see all of the books which say, this subscription has been cancelled. all of the things that you need the subspriptions are being canceled. gentleman that is all that i have to say, please, vote in some money.

>> thank you. >> next speaker, please? >> thank you, supervisors, my name is william balen and my firm is lalen and coller i am the chair of the san francisco ethics committee. i want to talk specifics because investing in at least 30,000 square feet for this law library is an investment in justice. on my practice, includes representing lawyers or dealing with matters involving lawyers. there are several books, or series of books including the state bar court reporter, the state bar (inaudible) on professional responsibility and the other books on professional responsibility and the ron malen series on medical malpractice and the books on legal and professional responsibility. those volumes exceed 30 volume. just that one little niche it takes 30 volume and they are

ex-expanding and not getting smaller or staying the same. my partner is a certified specialist who represents court appointed defendants on appeal. frequently she has to deal with constitutional issues that we have all heard going to other states to compare the statutes in those states with the california statutes to determine issues such as whether the sentence that her client has received is an unconstitutional impermissible sentence that is too large and too great. that involves hundreds of books that she has to look at. the investment of 30,000 is an investment in justice and i encourage you to do it. >> thank you. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, my name is ilean okeef i am a new attorney and working as a solo practitioner and doing contract attorney work in the city of

san francisco. i am appearing to oppose the proposal to provide it with the space below the minimum required by the san francisco law library and request that all, proceedings be made public. i am a native san franciscoan and i was raised by a civil mother and we had to result to welfare to keep us housed and fed. and i relied on the public libraris for my education and i went to harvard and the new york school of the university of law. i am proud of the tradition of civic pride and justice. >> san francisco has a legal obligation to provide adequate law library space for the needs of city and county of san francisco. it is a vital resource and a just (inaudible) public courts of law. i have been an active patron of the san francisco law library for the past 15 years and over that time i have become acutely

aware of the need of each and every aspect of the law library, including the books, the internet resources the conference space and space for those members of the public and attorneys tho meet, as well as legal education for the public. before i was a member of the california bar, i relied upon the library for the legal research, access from 9 to 5, work schedule preventing me from accessing it, i also helped friends who are not lawyers access the resource whens they were in a panic over their legal situations. when i became a legal professional, i became aware that every system has relied on the library, i i am aware that it is a vital resource for me to meet my ethical obligation to be competent in representing my clients. >> thank you. >> next speaker.

>> my name is joan walsh and i am appellant attorney, my practice includes not only appeals but of course, doing research for a number of clients and a number of firms. the type of research that is as broad as the law is and sometimes the depth that you need to go into requires going back many years and has been noted in many different jurisdictions that is a possibility. that type of research just is not available in private firms any more. i think that i could say that even about the large firms. so, a public library is absolutely essential for the practice of law. secondly, this is not a situation that effects just sole practitioners or appellant practitioners or the poor, or those who need to help themselves. every day, litigaters in san francisco are running over to

the public library because sometimes has come up that they suddenly need a resource for, a case for, a form for, and it is absolutely essential for the practice of law. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker please? >> good morning. my name is ad win enseln and i am a attorney and practice with a small boutique tax firm. the library serves a valuable purpose and i don't think that anybody disputes that. for our purpose as a small firm in the city we depend on the library for access to legal volumes. many of these are not available on-line and if the library does not have adequate space to house the collection we lose access to those volumes not only us but the members of the public as well. this will negatively impact our ability to practice law in san francisco, and people in san francisco ability to access the law, space is critical.

in addition, to using the law library to access specific volumes, i and other members of my firm often visit to research topics by also studying other volumes in the same subject matter that are kept on the library shelves. there is not enough space for the library to display the full connection. this will be impossible as many volumes will be inaccessible. space is critical and allows it for be accessible for the public and allows for the users to have room to study the law and to interact with the staff or with other lawyers or even with clients. space is really critical. i urge you to reconsider, the amount of space devoted to the library. >> thank you very much. next speaker please? >> good morning, my name is mary stats and i am a law librarian in the financial

district law firm,vy worked in law firms in the financial district for 36 years and i have needed the san francisco law library constantly. they often fill in the gaps that we have in our library collection, in addition, in recent years, we have all had to cut back, nobody has any money. and one of the criteria that i use is oh, well the san francisco law library has it so we can get rid of this. and we can get rid of that. recently my library moved to a space and lost a third of the collection, this 30,000 square feet that is san francisco library needs is not padded. this is the minimum that they need. if they have to get rid of those books, no one has them. there is a mistaking belief that everything is available on-line, everything is not available on-line and what is on-line is very expensive.

it costs a lot and it is much easier to open a book and look at something than do a search on-line. the historical material is not on-line, you know. for many new lawyers, life starts in 1990. and nothing before that is important. i don't know what we would do without the library for history. they helped us out with tracing the regulation back to 1952, which was a very crucial point in a case. thank you. >> next speaker. >> good morning, members of the subcommittee, my name is daniel labow i am practicing here in san francisco representing consume and hers small businesses within the community. i am also a san francisco resident. i like to echo the contentions of the last speaker. it is clear that not all law

materials are on-line and not only historical, but materials that i have used in my daily practice. i started my law practice my own practice three years ago and i have consulted at least a half dozen books that would not be align and would be expensive to purchase. i also represent through the bar association of san francisco, on a probono basis consumers who have been sued by debt collecters in performing my duties for those san francisco residents, i also conducted materials which are not available on-line. and finally i would like to raise a point which i don't thinks that been directly raised today which is even if the materials are on-line, it is necessary to have a print version for most of the public to address the issues. i'm of a generation where i learned in law school to access

materials on-line. but before doing so, we learned to access them in print. and it is part of the thought process that makes it easier to sort of navigate the legal doctrine, if you are accessing materials in print. so i believe that less than 30,000 square feet community will be under served by the law library, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker, please? >> my name is pricilla (inaudible) and i am a former lawyer of golden gate law and former director of the bar association of san francisco and former chair on the commission of women in san francisco. from my perspective of 40 years to enhance opportunity in the justice system i want to address the currently proposed widely inadequate space that is being proposed for the city law library, these kinds of cut backs in this era of cuts within the courts which i

fwlaoefsh includes the advisor to (inaudible) clients, it seems to me that are denied minimal access to justice, for the vast majority of low income communities, including communities of color that are the most needful of legal service and most of who end up representing themselves. law libraries are among the very few institutions available to these groups and the attorneys seeking to serve them and middle income individuals and small businesses, a couple of computer terminal cans not begin to replace the resources and books provided by the library and we all know that most useful on-line resources are expensive. the truth is on-line access is most often no access. >> it takes information professionals law librarians or experts on the hierarchy of the legal information to help to refine and he analyze the information for those unfamiliar with the law. it also takes physical space for books and for the use of those materials in which the

legal resource ideas can be discussed and analyzed. the law schools are not available to the public, i would like to say as the city that is the most progressive in this country, that 30, to 35,000 feet is a small price to pay for equal access to justice. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, my name is david (inaudible) and i practice labor and employment law in the city and also a resident of the city. i prk in a small group of four other lawyers. i absolutely depend on the law library for on-line research and for reference works for (inaudible) which in turn lead to the backs that are on the shelves because it is prohibitive for us to be able to afford those materials. we are a small firm and our clients would not be able to afford any kind of these costs. other thing that i have noticed since i have been using the

library, is how many lay people are using it and i have talked to some of them and it is amazing. it is really a revelation to me because i practiced for many years at firms that had all of those resources and i had no need to go to the library or we would get the librarian to get something from the library. i would urge you if you have not actually been to the law library to go there and see what actually happens. and how vibrant of a space it is. that is a service that you need to expand not contract. thank you. >> thank you, very much. >> next speaker? >> good morning my name is adam (inaudible) and i am here to oppose the resolution and also to urge you to attach some great weight , to the lie breannes about what they need to serve the city's needs.

i started to use this law library a couple of months ago when i took on a pro bono. the staff is knowledgeable and cap able but having used the law libraris in other cities it was apparent to me that this library resources are constricted. and they don't have the funding that they need and i think that is and i am talking particularly about the both print and on-line resources and the space that is available. so, i think that is a great shame for the city and i just wanted to say that i know that the city and this committee has a lot of other pressing matters you know, housing and infrastructure and funding the arts, but you can't put a premium on justice, you can't have justice unless you know what the law is. you have have knowledge of that law and for many people including myself, and another under privileged people, the law library is the only source where you can get that

knowledge. thank you. >> thank you. >> next speaker. >> good morning, my name is jennifer (inaudible) and i am an attorney i practice transactional entertainment and art law and represent artist and musicians authors and start up companies and entrepreneurs in 2006 i offered the law firm and i leased the space across from the financial branch and i used that regularly and i was really upset when it was closed. the san francisco library requires adequate space and the failure to provide for it will have an adverse effect, and the clients that we serve in the community. there is no sab taout place for research, the libraries don't offer public access and some to alumni or students only. many are geared towards academic and not towards practice such as the practice that involve practice manuals that are important.

access to the level levels the planning field. and it is no joke that many artist whens they start out are starving. the success comes later, it is often because they had legal assistance from reviewing the contracts presented to them. access to available to other members of the committee as you heard here today to research other issues such as disability and other issues. there is a waiting list for the computer's research purposes so limiting space and computers and materials is not the way that you should be going. in practice i have to go up against much larger firms and negotiation and becausevy been well prepared with the information i have been able to represent them adequately. i respectfully request that you find adequate space and for the san francisco library, thank you. >> thank you very much. next speaker. >> >> good morning, my name is steven, (inaudible) and i have lived in san francisco since

1947 and i opened a law fifrm and i am a regular user, i was reading the recorder this saturday and i saw a case and so i tried 1997 called dawn verses spine care and that case dealt with the code on human experimentation and caused the law in california for the citizen to have the right to informed consent related to human experimentation on them >> in that case i used this law library for weeks to prepare for the trial. and i would not have have access in the 90s and we need that space and historical information for a free and honest society to go forward, a attorney cannot go against the big firms unless we have a law library that provides them with the materials to fight toe to toe. i urge you to adopt or not to

adopt the 20,000 square foot measure and to in fact expand as much as possible, the law library, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, supervisors, i'm jane cal and i am an employment lawyer with my own practice here in san francisco by way of background, i am 1993 graduate of ncu school of law and after which i join the country's premier law firms and about ten years ago in 2002, with no budget, or resources on-line or off line, i was able to create a viable employment law practice focused on providing small to medium sized companies with advice, hr consulting and today my firm serves a myriad of small to medium sized companis from small restaurants and house cleaning company and it support service and medical and law, religious organization and bio

technology companies and social mae companies and non-profit, healthcare organizations educational institution, including universities here in san francisco. none of this would have been possible without the staff and the resources both on-line and in print form that are available to the users of the library that are free of charge. i think that i joined the chorus of voices that you hear today and the parade of other speakers. when they urge you on behalf of these small medium sized businesses and consumers themselves, who want to insure that the resources continue to be available and that you adequately fund it. san francisco prides itself on being a world class city. should we not want to have a world class law library at our use and exposal.

>> thank you. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, my name is rob, and i am an attorney here in san francisco. many of people that have spoken before me have spoken about the nature of the library, but i do want to address the issue of the resolution that is before you. as i am standing in line i look around at these chambers and i have to conclude that they seem to be adequate for your needs here. and i don't mean just barely adequate. they seem to be well-suitd for your job, if you walk across the street, and look in the library there, i don't think that you will feel the same level of love and care that is around here. so i would say that there are two critical elements here that you need to consider in terms of adequacy. >> the first is that the space and the layout needs to be adequafo