that will be using this law library. and i know that i listened to them and (inaudible) on and on and west lawn and that is not the purpose of the law library, those are peripheral functions of it. you have textbooks and cases going back to the continental convention. >> thank you very much. >> i thank you for your time. >> thank you, next speaker, please? >> good morning my name is sally grass i am an attorney for the san francisco public guardian and public administrator. there are five of us in our office and we are embedded in the office of the public guardian and public administrator which is under the department of aging and adult services. we represent the public guardian and public administrator in all court proceedings. and we don't have the funds in that agency, which is an agency that helps poor and homeless people and people who need help, we don't have the funds

there to have a law library or to have practice books that we need to do our work. the law library and its connection of books, practice, books, and all of the collections help us to represent the public guardian and public administrator in taking care of the citizens of san francisco. i also feel that the public library enables people who can't afford access to the law, to be able to access the law. and they are not able to access it on an electronic method because we have to learn how to research law, electronically. and people can walk into that library and see a book and use a book which is the way that people know how to research. so the law library and its connections provide access to people that would not have access to the law otherwise.

also, i think that it is important that the library preserve its historical collection. and that they provide space for the collection to exist. thank you very much. >> thank you, very much. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, subcommit ti, i'm really not sure how to address you, this is my first time in your chambers, my first time speaking to you. buff i felt passionate enough to come, my name is dennis nava and i am just a joe citizen, a native san franciscoan, and when i found out that the public law library was having issues it really astounded me. i recently because i had questions, and was unable to afford an aattorney, had made use of the public libraries actually several entities in san francisco, which are now finding are no longer available to the public. the market street location has

been closed from last march from my understanding and hasting is no longer allowing the public to use the public library and to believe that the city that hosts the 9th kir circuit is not going to have a public library available to look at laws that are governing just astounded me. so i am listening to these attorneys and these para legals and i am like wow, if we are having problems who am i to stand here and say look is this something that no one else is seeing? this should be our constitutional right, our legal accessibility to look at these laws, whether i have a computer or not. (inaudible) thank you very much for letting me speak. >> thank you. >> next speaker, please? >> my name is charles renthrew and i speak from a different perspective than those who are

sole practicenysingers, i have been fortunate to build a very large law firm and a u.s. district court judge and i had access to wonderful libraries and the libraries are sometimes the back bone of the law because it contains what has happened, and what should happen is also, contained in those libraries. i have read the materials that have been submitted to you, i urge that you consider them seriously, that you look at the need for at least 30,000 square foot in the library and particularly this time, when the courts have more people representing themselves, there is a greater need than before to have a public library accessible to them. and i just urge you and i know that the committee will, consider this very carefully because there are times as we are in today, where some resources have to be expanded for the organizations that meet growing needs and demands and thank you so much. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker? >> good morning.

my name is chuck marcus and i am the president of no cal, the president of the association of libraries and speaking on behalf of no cal has been the professional association since 1980. we greatly support the san francisco law library's efforts to get adequate space for their library. and i am also speaking as a faculty services librarian at uc hastings to the law and we have the closest law library to the courts and we are no longer open to the general public and we refer many to the county law library and due to the same cuts we are no longer able to collect and keep the current information on the law practice materials. and they do not have access to what they collect. due to changes in electronic resources as we move to ebooks, we may be limited by the

licenses to provide adequate access to resources to the members of the bar. as such, i want to state that we need adequate space for this county law library. and finally, although we all live in the age of electronic information, it is important to remember the role of the library is a place after the new library of san francisco public library was opened, the number of citizens using the library grew many folds, after the hastings law library was renovated the students who never set foot came to mingle and socialize and adequate space for the law library offers great potential to the lawyers, small law firms and the population of san francisco under served by the legal establishment. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker. please? >> i am nancy luelen san francisco is a world class city, we have the california

state supreme court, the court of appeals and the superior court and we deserve a world class library and we have one now but it needs to expand after the closing of the managnoc branch and you have the space that is available not only to solo such as myself and small law firms but to very many members of the public. i personally have sent lots of potential clients who could not afford my services to use the law library. as a small business owner, i am tired of paying more taxes for less services. librarians are terrific in this law library at both research and finding information for the attorneys and the public who can't afford the attorneys, the library provides free lunchtime legal advice and speakers to the public and host groups from around the world, most recently china, and justices, and they need to continue that fabulous

work. closing the (inaudible) branch was difficult, closing the law library here at civic center would be a tragedy. i urge the supervisors to expand the space that is available to this law library, thank you. thank you. >> good morning, my name is carroll maloy and i am a solo practitioner. and i graduated from law school in 1987 and worked with the wills and trusts for aids victims at that time. i used the law library at that time to do thorough research to provide adequate services to those unfortunate victims of the aids epidemic. since then, i have worked in the juvenile courts in san francisco across the street. and on my lunch hours i would come over here to the law library where and it is present

location and do thorough research because of the size of the collection in the law library to represent the children and their parents of the city of san francisco and maintain their rights. and now i have had wonderful research assistance in my law practice and in my teaching assignment because of the thorough collection that the adequate 35,000 square feet of space has provided for the city and for its citizens. i urge you to continue the resources that the city is continuing to provide. thank you so much. >> thank you very much, next speaker please? >> good morning my name is

winne gow and we are a non-profit organization in san francisco and as you may know we provide free legal services for thousands of low income immigrant communities, family and residents in san francisco each year through our immigrant rights us housing, workers rights and criminal justice program. we do direct services and litigation and other advocacy. i want to agree with everything that has been said about the crucial nature of public libraries and public access to information being the keystone to any real democracy, i think that is particularly true for the passage of law. on our non-profit legal budget we can only afford a bare bones, we cannot to retain the source and authorities needed to properly represent our clients and do more work, we rely on the public library for those resource and their excellent librarians and staff. it just helps us even the playing field just a little bit

against the defense counsel that we are against with those with in-house teams. but we used to use the market street location, and just want to urge the subcommittee to keep from retracting the public resources any further. >> thank you very much. next speaker. >> good morning and thank you for the opportunity to address you this morning on this important topic. my name is john olverson and i am an attorney in san francisco and i am appearing here today on behalf of 1,000 members of the san francisco trial lawyer association, on this board i sit and also on behalf of the 3,000 members of the consumer attorneys of california who i serve as treasurer, both of those organizations exist to promote the public good through meaningful access to public justice and it is that access to justice for all citizens begins with access to the law

itself. that is a concept that is as old as the idea that laws must be available to the public before they will have full force and effect. and it makes sense that if we are to up hold the promise of our democracy that our citizens must have meaningful access to the laws itself and the materials that explain the law and assist them to use it. as evidenced this week in the united states supreme court, san francisco has a proud and well earned tradition of being on the forefront of issues of great social import. we often sit at the cross roads of what the law ought to be and what it presently is. and essential to those great debates the idea that the law is open to the people. and that there is a place to study this, you have already heard today the members of the public, and adequate law library is essential to the people who have no access

otherwise, and access to the law. to help them with their every day issues. and from trying to start a small business of where to go if you receive an eviction notice or many of the small firm practitioners that make-up the majority of the trial lawyers association. and the law library is essential. i know that have you been... >> thank you very much, sir. >> next speaker. >> good morning, supervisors, my name is mary katherine lerahod and it has been touched upon the city and county of san francisco and being sued in the superior court over the issue of space and leasing of the library. i understand that only there are between 15 and 20,000 square foot plans for possible new branch at the corner of

post and van ness. i am here to urge that you consider more funds because the (inaudible) branch on market street was closed. the current 15,to 20,000,al location of funds to lease, 20,000 is inadequate. i am on the san francisco trial lawyer's board of directors, i represent residential tenants in the city. not everything that is legal is on-line, what is on-line is not free. we need the book. like i said i represent residential tenants i need the law library to research specific issues. and i am not going to charge my clients an arm and a leg to just to find out an issue that i can access in a book. i have on-line access but that

not going to replace a paper copy. >> so the san francisco judge is possible that the san francisco judge will order more space, or you as one of the branches of government can allocate more money. i would consider that this committee allocate more money to this space thank you for your consideration. >> thank you, next speaker. >> good morning, my name is jessica, (inaudible) and i too am a small solo practitioner in san francisco and also volunteer on the free advice clinics i am not going to talk about that i think that it has been covered but i want to give you a couple of concrete examples of how the public library availability has changed. the course of litigation for people who cannot afford lawyers. in my practice, and in my volunteer work, i do both landlord tenant matters and

credit card litigation, defense and people have been sued by their credit cards, often the people come to me in both situations and in the credit card situation they have been sued but the amount is small, under $10,000 perhaps even under $6,000. it is not practical for them to have a lawyer in that situation, because even at a reduced rate like most of my clients pay, it is not going to be adequate. so, i send them to the public law library and i direct them to the specific resources and the california forms of pleading and practice and the guides and also, the california continuing education and a bar resources. and in those books, they can find and they have found, the specific motions to vacate the judgments or otherwise get access to what they need. in my landlord tenant work, there was a gentleman who had a default while he was in county

jail, and i also sent him to the public law library to get information on setting aside that and directed him to resources that would give him the basis to do so and otherwise he would have lost his home. not all states have their codes on-line. i have to look up things for montana and nebraska not everything is on-line. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, supervisors my name is jim rodney and i am a trial lawyer and standing in line i realized that i have tried cases in this city for 50 years. i am here today to personify the issue because i followed it all of that time. and i see what... i was here a year ago as co-chair of the justice cab committee to speak to an ordinance and declare that san

francisco would be the first council of the united states and that was passed by the finance committee and by the board of supervisors and you are the first one, as a urban entity, a governmental entity to directly address what happens across the street, on the fifth floor, you will see now, if you go there now you will see a line of people, some of them well dressed because six out of ten of the little class will go to civil court have no lawyer, eight out of ten are imp overishood. >> i know this board and i know that you care about them. and i am representing a woman in sacramento who has what other issues? she lost complete custody of her 14-year-old daughter. she is disabled and has no lawyer her husband had a lawyer.

how much does it take for families being unrepresented and sometimes both sides are unrepresented for the department... it is common. what do they do? they go to the law library, i found just in a year and a half. they go to the law library and for a lawyer to see a layperson three years of education, three years of education, he cannot represent people until we pass the bar and show that we know what we are doing and the reason that it passed this committee was that there were so many people who practiced law on this committee, if you are in the courts as i have, you see them in the halls like the undead, people who bring tear to a stone, yes, they will go to the library and i may be one of the main users of the library, nobody in this room would snatch a law book out of their hand to say not only do

you not have a lawyer, but you have no access to the books or the computers and now and go and try to keep your child or your house or your apartment or whatever you might want to do. those are my thoughts and i appreciate it, thank you. >> thank you. next speaker. >> my name is a besty johnson and i have an a chair for (inaudible) for eight years and i was chief for the aids referal panel and among other things at the volunteer legal service panel and a small claims court judge. i am speaking as a lawyer, obviously, who has worked a lot with people with disabilities. and the people with disabilities need a library, and why? because google is no good.

because the internet is no accessible for people for a large population of the city. recent or current lawsuit shows that a lot of the internet is not accessible. they need a place where there is a human being that they can talk to and they need a place where there is alternate media available, that is to say, books and other kinds of things, they also need a place to meet other people and they need a place that has especially other people where they can talk to because as people who are working in the courthouse, have seen, the volume of staff has decreased amazingly, not just the sequestration but the radical decrease in staff right now. i just want to add that the other thing about it is that is needs to be near the courthouse, and putting a courthouse in place in south san francisco is not any luck to anybody with a disability. thank you very much. >> next speaker, please?

>> good morning, my name is barry tagala and i am a sole practitioner and i have done civil litigation since 1984, 1989 in the state of california. in my career, i have witnessed the closing of the (inaudible) law library and its consolidation at the van ness library, and what i am concerned about at this point is that the law library itself is telling you, that they need 30,000 square feet and you are trying to force them into 15,000 to 20,000 square feet. and i am here to say that i think that shoving them into that smaller space is going to substantially reduce the amount of law that the public will have access to.

if you were to wipe out a half to a third of the main library in san francisco, you would lose, offers from a through g or a through f, would have to be thrown out, or you would lose all non-fiction books. you would lose some fiction books, the point is that you are going to substantially disrupt the public access to law. we don't know what areas of law will be wiped out, we don't know how much of it will be inaccessible, i do have access to lexus in my firm as a sole practitioner, but i don't have access to everything that the law library offers and i am a frequent user of it. so i urge you and i think that the law is a very noble and special thing. everybody deserves access to the law. whether you have the internet or not. it would be a traf vestty to

wife it out by a half or a third. >> i am going to remind people in the chambers you cannot clap, everyone wants to get two minutes to speak and we want to respect everyone's time to speak. >> good morning supervisors, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you. my name is james moore and i am the smallest practitioner of law in san francisco. and here i am only speaking for myself, but i would like agree with all of the things that people have said to date on behalf of all of those litigants that i see at the court who have to represent themself and have no access to any other law library. i personally subscribe to west law, i personally have a you know the bare bones books that have you to have in your office

to hang out. but i need that library down there. it is frightening to me of think of it closing down, it is frightening to walk into that library and look at the shelves and see all of the books which say, this subscription has been cancelled. all of the things that you need the subspriptions are being canceled. gentleman that is all that i have to say, please, vote in some money. >> thank you. >> next speaker, please? >> thank you, supervisors, my name is william balen and my firm is lalen and coller i am the chair of the san francisco ethics committee. i want to talk specifics because investing in at least 30,000 square feet for this law library is an investment in justice. on my practice, includes representing lawyers or dealing

with matters involving lawyers. there are several books, or series of books including the state bar court reporter, the state bar (inaudible) on professional responsibility and the other books on professional responsibility and the ron malen series on medical malpractice and the books on legal and professional responsibility. those volumes exceed 30 volume. just that one little niche it takes 30 volume and they are ex-expanding and not getting smaller or staying the same. my partner is a certified specialist who represents court appointed defendants on appeal. frequently she has to deal with constitutional issues that we have all heard going to other states to compare the statutes in those states with the california statutes to determine issues such as whether the sentence that her client has received is an

unconstitutional impermissible sentence that is too large and too great. that involves hundreds of books that she has to look at. the investment of 30,000 is an investment in justice and i encourage you to do it. >> thank you. >> next speaker, please? >> good morning, my name is ilean okeef i am a new attorney and working as a solo practitioner and doing contract attorney work in the city of san francisco. i am appearing to oppose the proposal to provide it with the space below the minimum required by the san francisco law library and request that all, proceedings be made public. i am a native san franciscoan and i was raised by a civil mother and we had to result to welfare to keep us housed and fed. and i relied on the public libraris for my education and i went to harvard and the new york school of the university of law. i am proud of the tradition of

civic pride and justice. >> san francisco has a legal obligation to provide adequate law library space for the needs of city and county of san francisco. it is a vital resource and a just (inaudible) public courts of law. i have been an active patron of the san francisco law library for the past 15 years and over that time i have become acutely aware of the need of each and every aspect of the law library, including the books, the internet resources the conference space and space for those members of the public and attorneys tho meet, as well as legal education for the public. before i was a member of the california bar, i relied upon the library for the legal research, access from 9 to 5, work schedule preventing me from accessing it, i also helped friends who are not

lawyers access the resource whens they were in a panic over their legal situations. when i became a legal professional, i became aware that every system has relied on the library, i i am aware that it is a vital resource for me to meet my ethical obligation to be competent in representing my clients. >> thank you. >> next speaker. >> my name is joan walsh and i am appellant attorney, my practice includes not only appeals but of course, doing research for a number of clients and a number of firms. the type of research that is as broad as the law is and sometimes the depth that you need to go into requires going back many years and has been noted in many different jurisdictions that is a possibility. that type