made the indexes and they were not very small people and the great thing about the on-line data base is you can do the search and if you figure out the words that the court has to use to decide the issue that you want to do and you will decide that the index people may be there. and so i like that stuff. and the problem is that a lot of the resources that are in the law library across the street are not available on-line. for example, many of the older cases are not available on-line, the data base i subscribe to goes back to 1930. and when i practiced law at the firm that had a library, many years ago, the older law books, the older case books were gotten weathered and i called it getting into a leather when

you (inaudible) that it was relevant. the beauty of those cases that was decided before the turn of the last century is that in those days, the courts decided the case in a page or two. and nowadays, it is like 30 or 40 pages, if you can find one that is relevant it is good to say it. and the second thing that they had there was the directorry and i found my dad who practiced in new jersey many years ago back in 19933 edition, i use it for looking up judges and attorneys and the historical use of that is good too. >> good morning, my name is (inaudible) santacruise and i am here m my capacity as a sole practitioner and also the president of the san francisco

lasada lawyers association and i am here to petition that you reconsider your current proposal and provide the san francisco law library adequate space. and i think that it is very obvious given how many people turned out today that it is a tremendous amount of support that the san francisco law library has. i think that it is important to remember that the library is not just about rows and rows of books, it is about a space that foster as a community, a sense of community. and i have experienced that first hand. when i first started, my own practice, i was obviously lost when i was researching in order to figure out what particular issue i was seeking, and i have also seen countless numbers of individuals both attorneys and non-attorneys spend hours at

the library sitting and researching you know with sacks of books and i think that space is really important, also given that the san francisco law library also hosts ncles which help all attorneys continue their legal education as well as hosting workshops, for example, on bankruptcy or on landlord tenant issues that serve the community as a whole. so it is more than just the books that are there, but it is also the space that we need. thank you very much. >> good morning, committee members, my name is robert fletcher, i have been a law library user since 1970. when i passed the bar. i became a member of the california bar, i would like to

corroberate all of the statements made this morning in support of the resolution to expand the law library's space. i just like to touch about a couple of, you know, personal experiences. i think that you have heard and i would invite you to go to the law library some time and you would find number one, practice books that are really uniquely appropriate and useful for non-lawyers. >> san francisco law library has the best collection for non-attorneys to be able to solve, to understand their legal problems. and now the san francisco is

fortunate of having a very extremely helpful and untilable library staff, every time that i have gone to the law library, i have heard the staff patiently direct say (inaudible) so in conclusion, i would ask you as everyone else as informally to reconsider a 20,000 square feet and to take the recommendation of this fine professional staff. thank you very much. >> my name is james at ridge and i gave up the full time practice of law 17 years ago because i decided to go part time and partner with my wife in raising an au cystic child and her sister and we have done that successfully and never have looked back, but i never would have been able to

accomplish that without the law library across the street. i don't think that there was not everybody in the room who was not moved by the movie philadelphia, about a lawyer who took on the establishment and brought justice to a person who is dying of aids. everyone in this room knows, you don't win a trial like that, just in the courtroom. you work up a trial, you win a trial by working it up in a law library. to a large extent i would like it to be mindful that many people in this city, if you shut down the library, you might as well shut down the courthouse. >> how do you do? my name is ron (inaudible) and i have practiced since 1964 and i do all kinds of criminal work, appointed federal. and so, i am johnny one note

but i have brilliance on the note. i have found in almost every case that i do, somewhere, there is a case or a statute which is going to help the position of my client. and the problem is finding it. and the place to conduct that investigation as far as i am concerned is the law library. and i have a little confession to make which none of the other lawyers have had to confront which that is that i don't know how to use on-line services. i don't know how to turn on a compute ir. i believe that it is the old problem about the older dog and the new trick. and so help me, i have not mastered that trick. and so, without the law library, to be perfectly honest, i would be like the chemist without a test tube, i would suffer and my clients would suffer and the community at large would suffer, thank

you. >> good morning, my name is alan besborus and i am a practicing lawyer here in san francisco. i have had the pleasure of being a law professor for a number of years. and the beneficiary of a good education. one of the things that i learned in the process of practicing and of living, is that the first thing that the totalitarian wants to do is burns all of the books. no one has proposed to burn the book, but what you have decided to do is lock them away and i can't really meaningful distinguish between a book that is gone because it is burned and a book that is gone because you locked it up and won't let me have access to it. for you that is what is happening here. that is the political and

practical implication of taking the law library, fulfilling your duties to provide one to the population, and then making it so small, as to make it unworkable. i don't know that that is what you intend to do. i know, to a certainty that there is a politically position and i think that you and the rest of the population respond to that. i don't know whether it has been 100 and 75, or 150 people who have come up before me, but i have not heard one voice that said close the library. i have not heard one voice that said... to 20,000 feet is enough. i know that it is not. i am not an, engineer, but i am a user of that library and i have seen the librarians have to go into a locked reposetorrey where the public does not have access in order to get a book that i need. thank you very much for

listening. >> i am jerry shapiro and a third generation san franciscoan and i am a lawyer, practicing in the three attorney firm and i am a regular user of the library. you should not find that less than 30 to 35,000 square feet located 8 or 9 blocks from the civil courts is suitable or sufficient or accessible or convenient. first the library needs that space at a minimum. although additional space is available, with the veteran's building, the city has not provided that space to the library. i often find the desk and computers occupied so that the people who want to use it either stand or can't use it. the space is so small that the library has cut back its

collection this means that there are not multiple copies of many books that people commonly need. if you have a book of of the shelf i can't use it. in addition as you have heard much of the klekds collection is in storage and not available to anyone at all. this includes the irreplaceable unique historic collection of the library. as ray bradbury said to counter the statement by my predecessor, you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture, just get the people to stop reading them. the second reason that the proposal is wrong is that the proposed space is 8 or 9 blocks from the courts tha. is not accessible or convenient as required by law. third, and most important, the failure to provide enough space is not just a violation of the law, it is a disservice to the public. i urge you not to allow the executive branch to violate the

law any longer. providing less than suitable space that is not immediately accessible and convenient to the courts will not merely violate the law, it does harm to all of us, thank you. >> >> good morning, my name is heather valante i have been an attorney in the city since 1995 and as a solo practitioner for over ten years now and so, i think that we are talking about not just a blow to the law here, but a blow to civil society, just like the gentleman just said. take away education and you destroy a culture. my question is, you know, what will those people do who don't have the means to access the books, if we fail to provide them the law that they need to get to. so that they can prepare to go

to court. so, it is already difficult for them to access justice. and if the city fails to provide what they need. then i think that it would be a terrible blow to us. these books are cost prohibtive to me, to own and maintain, i would not be able to maintain my practice without in law library. and i ask you to provide not just adequately for light braer, but to provide all of the books that we need. thank you. >> good morning, my name is john ogrady and i have been a regular user of the law library for more than 25 years. i have or i have given educational workshops on how to prevent financial elder abuse and other state planning topics

at the law library. i have often encountered low income people who cannot afford a lawyer trying to do research in the law library, i remember that i had a hell of a time doing research. and i still have a hard time. i don't know how how many does it without legal training, sometimes they ask me questions about how to do their research. and i am really glad to help them on occasion. and these people do not have a voice here today and so we are speaking for them and the road to democracy is the road begins at the law library, without access to justice, without access to the courts, without access to the legal materials, to present their cases, there is no justice, there is no democracy. so, enough is enough. please listen to us, please

stop the devastating cuts to the law library. >> my name is har on the ross and i have been practicing criminal defense law for many years. i remember the library here in this building and having access to the law library has helped me to be successful in many cases that i would not have been if we did not have the number of books that were not necessary for my research. particularly, textbooks that are very difficult for solo practitioners they are very expensive and have to be renewed every year and i found that the law library has a very nice collection of textbooks that you can also borrow and use them at home and so i know that having a law library has made it possible for me to help

a lot of people. and i would not have been able to do it without. so i think that we must consider our citizens and protect them with the right, so that they can defend themselves or represent themselfs in civil cases. thank you, for considering my remarks. >> honorable members of the budget committee, my name is david (inaudible) and i am a volunteer for the coalition of legal professionals and i am a board member of (inaudible) and members of san francisco tomorrow, citizen climate to lobby as well as other social economic and professional organizations i am urging the supervisors to allow fundings to allow at least the library to keep the present minimum spais of 30,000 square feet. i am saying this not from the

standpoint of the present city budget but for the future needs of our residents. and as an internet engineer, i realize that we could find them on-line and the library does provide the service and know that it is necessary to have a physical space for legal research and free citizen education that the library provides. neither wiki pedia, or google could take the presence of the san francisco public library, neither will lexus or west law on-line will replace the library. internet cannot replace a well-appointed law library for ordinary san francisco citizen as well as legal professionals. and the next 20 years, san francisco will experience the increase in population and change in dem graphicks that will reflect the dem graphics and knowledge workers and we

are seeing the increasing construction as well as my neighborhood, and that reflection of the city economy and it is time to have the supervisor board position dip into the future with an eye to increase the services and expand rather than decrease, the san francisco law library for the future for residents to make san francisco the forefront of world class cities, thank you. >> gentleman, thank you for allowing us to us all appear, my name is larry bain and i work with the school district service and we feed 55,000 children every day. and 75 percent of them are living at or below poverty and basically they are hungry, the work that i do is essential to improve the quality of food that is being served lower the cost of that service, and

without the support of the law library and the increased amount of space that they need. i am sure that i work in a field, that those were the books more valuable to me and the children of san francisco. and the decision that you make today will impact not only the people working for the great population, and impact the daily life of the children of san francisco public schools. thank you. >> good afternoon my name is (inaudible) and i thank you for this opportunity to speak to you on behalf of the public law library and i have a solo law practice and i started my office last year. and frankly i would not have been able to do so without the resources and the support and help that i got from the public law library, not only were they able to provide me with information about the practice management in terms of the types of tools and resources

that i needed to have a law office and also there was of course legal documents and books that i could use to serve my clients. on one hand, the public law library looks like a free resource but for me it is an earned resource, because when i paid my taxes related to the business i am supporting the library economically and i think that a lot of people would say a lot of things similar. the law practices would not be possible without the resources therefore the business taxes that they pay to the city would not be possible without those resources. so i think that from a public policy standpoint, the library should be expanded and improved as opposed to diminished and reduced. businesses are able to be created and conducted through the resource and also the public is able to get the information that they need about the various legal issues and matters that effect their lives on a daily basis, thank

you. >> >> good morning, supervisors. my name is alma robinson and i am the director of california (inaudible) for the arts and i am speaking as a very committed fan of the law library and the librarians who provided so much help to our organizations and various matters we were involved in as well as to individuals that we have sent there for help as they were representing themselves in court. and having examined various sides of this issue in terms of whether a compromise might be worked out, it seems to me that in fact, city is opened to exploring creative ideas that would take us out of the litigation realm that would come out to work, and i firmly believe that is possible.

and as supervisors you could facilitate this happening and we could end up with a better facility that works better for all of us rather than having a library feel like a solution has been imposed. thank you for your attention. >> good morning, my name is susan petrial and i am a so solo practitioner and also with low income clients and pr6789 obono clients sent them to the law library and i echo all that have been said before me and so what i am going to say is that since this is the budget and finance subcommittee and i am actually going to speak to that and the nakt there is a lawsuit that is vie be able which most likely in my opinion the city ends up being mandated to

extend this space any way. a family said that it is a good idea to work the compromise and give the city the space that it needs. the second thing that i want to say is i think that the session with the public attorney or whatever or should be open. and then, in the alternative, if it is a closed session, i would like the findings to be made public. so thank you very much. >> hello, everyone, my name is (inaudible) vitorio and i am a volunteer organizer with the coalition of concerned professionals based in san francisco. i am here to protest the city's plan to down size the only public library left stand ng san francisco. i want to echo the people that spoke before on behalf of the low income people, all of the people that need probono cases

by representative. and because i am of mexican origin and the people that are limited in english are in dire need of support. the state says that they do not have the money to keep the sorts open. but they have been 41 billion each year on tax breaks and incentive to corporations it is an constitutional act to be fund a judicial branch in the resource to a point that they are (inaudible) effective. the need of thousands of low income people and retired people as well as the (inaudible) and we urge you to do the duty to provide recourse to the people of the city, the city insured that the public law library has sufficient space and funding to continue its valuable work for our community so not only would we like it to be, or that we would

even like the expansion, better space and greater possibilities for all of the people, thank you. >> my name is dan snow berg and i am the pastor at the (inaudible) church and my congregation is made up mostly of homeless and disenfranchised and people who have time and time been marked as less than both cap able or status having access to services. i am deeply disturbed that there is a continuing, almost systemic elimination of services and opportunities for poor people, for those that have been eliminated or have been marginalized and this is

just one more step, one more illustration along the way. that the law library, that which, that system that has provided the opportunities for people to advance, even without resources. that becomes an opportunity to be limited and controlled. the real issue here is to control access. to a system and to a process which is essential for our democracy, and for those folks who support and are part of that democracy to make themselves, to strengthen their positions. you have the opportunity to expand and to provide opportunity for that access to be maintained and not controlled but to maintain it as an open and an option for

those folks who are in desperate need. thank you. >> good afternoon, committee members my name is will mquire i am a sole practitioner and as a new attorney like many of our generation we have been a victim of a over saturated legal market that you did not get the job at the big firm and i have started a solo practice and i cannot afford west law lexus services let alone the extensive collection of books that they have at the san francisco law library. in order that i rely every week on the service and staff that are invaluable. quite simply i could not serve my clients without their help and therefore i urge the committee to adopt the requested relief and on behalf

of myself and the clients simply situated and all of the litigants who use the services as well. thank you. >> good afternoon, my name is antonio (inaudible) and here as a resident of san francisco speaking on my behalf to reiterate of what the pastor says i was going to say the same message that we need to have legal services for homeless and people in need and the people part of the lgbt community, back and brown people, poor people, in general, they need legal services. if you see someone on welfare, or they cannot afford to pay $500 an hour, for an attorney and if he we down size the library, that is going to be a constraint for them. i support bigger library and i support that the library should

be 30,000 square feet and current size of the library is too small, there are not enough seats there. not enough books. and we need more staff and more resources for that library. i want to point out one personal example that there is a contract that san francisco as signed on our carry no cash program. and (inaudible) was awarded $82 million and $86,000 since 2010, tac (inaudible) were in control and if you contact the citizens who live in the properties or people who have called for work for pac they will tell you so many stories that are so heart breaking. and those people have no resources they don't have a way