various people at brick and mortar. when i met mr. perkins, he wasn't super nice. in the last month he has been much more representative -- receptive since the hearing. there has been appropriate sound readings. there have been at least 5 in my house. they did take legitimate sound readings and each time they came over they were issued a citation after that. it's been an on going problem for two years and i hear everything in my living room and on the plus side, i do think that since the last hearing they are taking steps to try to rectify the situation and they have been

more receptive than the past. i would like to move forward an get a good relationship with them. so, that's where i stand right now. i'm okay with hearing a little bit of the sound while they fix it. i don't want to place too many restrictions on their status right now because they have a lot of people that work there and i don't want anyone that works there to have to suffer, but i do just want to make sure that there is a specific timeline of when this soundproofing is going to be complete because it's been two years now. >> the sound test that were taken inside of your apartment, what time of day? >> they are usually 2 years now. >> the sound test that were taken inside of your apartment, what time of day? >> they are usually between 10:00-1130 p.m.. >> okay. thank you. >> thank you, next speaker.

>> hi. my name is dawn holiday. i'm a fan of live music and also a fan of the entertainment commission. we went through the problem that brick and mortar were having and the problems five years ago. we had neighbors that came to us and weren't satisfied with what we were doing and moved on to other city departments. we ended up mediating with the neighbors and the mediation was through a separate mediator. the entertainment commission unbeknownst to us at that time had been there over nine times and conducted noise test and different places. we are doing our own readings in our area and some sound augmentation of

our own. we came down to two neighbors that wouldn't decide with whatever had been decided. we came up with an amount to do which was very expensive. we've been there since 1988. during the brown area, they weren't up to standard. there were some places that weren't going to be satisfied because they didn't have triple pane windows. one neighbor that finally left, we went further with her and made some other concessions and mediated with her further. and this is where the entertainment commission came in and they were very helpful because there is a city ordinance that we complied to and we had a private engineer come in that worked with her apartment and our building what could be done

and what could be done on her side too because her building wasn't in compliance. we worked it out. it took two years and took a certain amount of money on our side and her side. without their input and without willing to realize that our neighborhood has changed too, we wouldn't have been able to get there. it was about mediating and working with our neighbors and realizing we were in a good place. my advice is to work with the neighbors. that's all. thank you. >> next speaker, please. >> good evening commissioners. my name is terrenceal ens. i had the pleasure to work with the commission and i'm proud to hear of all the fantastic processes that they had put in

place when ten years ago we had myself and a volunteer director in my truck running around putting up notices. the entertainment commission has come a long way. one of the advantages of hiring granelli and doing sound test. i always tell people if you are going to be in this business, the beacon to your business will be sound. if your neighbors hear sound, they will come and complain and eventually you will have to fix it. at the brick and mortar we have to remember that that venue started out as a warehouse and then it was the butterfly restaurant then a series of music venues none of which have the volume present that is being present now in the brick and mortar. so none of them had to do the sond

em now. what we say to everyone that enters the entertainment business is the one thing you have to do is soundproof because without that soundproofing you cannot have peace in the neighborhood and no one sleeps and the fights begin. when i sit here and listen and hear the innuendo that there are things going on behind-the-scenes, my eyes role out. you hear about how many sound test they have done. they go out at night when they are getting access to people's homes and listen with the sound meter to determine if there is a sound problem. i can't see a better process and i would hope that you support them in the decision that they have made in

the very gracious outreach that this neighborhood has done while the brick mortar does their sound proofing. i hope it can be found tonight. i thank you for listening to this. >> next speaker? >> madam president, commissioners, my name is mark, i'm and attorney and represent approximately 30 entertainment venues in san francisco. i have been through probably in the last 25 years 20 sound wars and i call them sound wars because they get pretty contentious and crazy. i have been here many years. i have had probably 15 or 20 sound test. these people

go out of their way to help venues and ignore the law in order to let this venue survive and do their soundproofing. it's unfortunate that brick and mortars has chosen to cast these issues. i told them they are nice people and just sweet. my child can't sleep, but i don't want any of your employees to lose their jobs. these are great people and they have been wronged, i think. i would really ask this board to uphold the entertainment commission's ruling on this because i think it was fair, i was there and i think the brick and mortar can work with the neighbors, they can soundproof this thing and we need more entertainment venues and

especially live entertainment venues and they are great ones. brick and mortar is a great venue. thank you. >> next speaker. >> commissioners, my name is jeff. i feel compelled to say a few things. sound is not an exact science. some people can hear things and other people can't hear. at some point in time i think what happens with the entertainment commission is if neighbors are sending complaints in, then they have to come out and do various test. if those test show that a building is emitting sound or leaking sound or causing adverse impact, it really comes down to a simple thing. we have a noise ordinance. and then you call a hearing and you have people come out and talk, share

their experience and show what process has been taken. i don't think at this point since i was at the last hearing, that this was complaints over a year 1/2 period of time. so it wasn't just something, there was some issues. the hard thing is that probably there was some investment done in good effort by the applicant to try to condense the noise or not have the impact. the problem with soundproofing is you never know if you have a $50,000 problem or $150,000 problem. you do the best you can and when you play your music and the complaints continue, it's very frustrating. i think that's where we are at now and i think there was some soundproofing

done and there is still complaints. that's the real frustrating situation. but, at the end of the day, buildings that aren't designed from the ground floor up, taking into consideration the room analysis test and buildings that were converted into something else, often times are flawed and that's unfortunate. we have seen it not just with this building but other buildings and other recent case where permits were denied or permits were not issued based on adverse impact where sound goes in communities where people live. that's the issue on this. >> thank you. any other public comment? >> seeing none, mr. perkins we'll start with your rebuttal now. >> first i just want to point

out that brick and mortar over the last month has done four layers of sheet rock on the entire sealing of the venue and we know that this is a process and we appreciate that we know that our neighbors realizes this is a process and we are not going to stop until it's completely soundproofed. we never ever once denied that it was going to be our goal is to absolutely soundproof the entire venue. however, the very fact of the matter is that the entertainment commission and their inspector violated city law and ignored when we protested. we were handed a sound test. if this sound test was so important , why did they not complete them. there is not a sound engineer in the world that says this is a sound test.

we had our own sound test and we've asked for the entertainment commission to do that. we have also asked the city to conform, when we said what are we being fined for an we are handed citations that don't have times. even in their own report , we are told that we did not pay for two sound citations that were a hundred percent blank. i think at some point, well, i think certain members of the entertainment commission are working hard to make sure this city that we live up to our rules we are asking for the same from the entertainment commission. live up to your own rules that you public. that is all we are asking. we have not been given a fair chance on this, a fair shot. we will work everyday

with our neighbors to make sure that there are no more sound complaints. for the first time as an owner of a business, i don't know what i'm paying for. i find it hard in a political process that this is considered okay. i want to say thank you for your time and thank you for my neighbors time for spending three 1/2 hours to get a chance to talk. thank you. >> i have a question. could you explain to me the purpose of the brick and mortar petition in the neighborhood? >> we found out about the hearing five days before. i found it -- one of our neighbors informed me that they are going to be holding an actionable hearing. which was not told to me. i had to call them twice and e-mail them twice. if you look in my package you can see where they respond. i don't see yeah, you

do have a hearing. we made a petition so we can meet with 30 different neighbors. we talked about the issues. did we try to raise the temperature by getting people there? to be honest i was concerned there was a commission hearing that was discussed with my neighbors and i wasn't informed that it was going to be held . did i panic? i absolutely did. >> i have several questions. so why didn't you, several of the neighbors that were here said they came to you and expressed their concerns initially and reading through the briefs they were met with a stonewall and

that's being nice actually. >> i would say we are on our fifth round of sound proofing. anyone involved with sound, it's not like a leak. >> the question was -- >> the point of the matter is that we were never stonewalling we were always working on soundproofing. we have behind the venues, we have a very formal restaurant on one side. we have a person who shares our back wall with her mother and where her child lives. she told me she didn't think we were operating anymore. are we working on it, obviously. we have not stone walled anyone. we have worked on this since it started. >> you say you performed sound test? >> correct. >> the work that you are doing for sound proofing, who is

helping with you that sound proofing work? >> first we started with a crew from avid who do sound testing and then we went to west coast sound solutions and even then when i was telling them we have to do this now and i was even chastised if i really wanted to do this, i would do this over night. when i told this to west coast sound, they started laughing. this is a big building, this is a process. we have to do around construction and we have to test where the leaks are and we have to find out where the neighbors where the low and high end is. we have been doing test in the neighbors houses. >> have you got paperwork of

these sound test. single family >> i have it in my brief. >> was the work applied to do the work? >> there was no permit required for soundboard. >> looking at the different petitions which i gather that you are satisfied with paying the citations. what is the issue with the other ones? >> i was paying for citations that i didn't even know that we had. >> you have no particular objection to the position laid on you? >> the overall objection i have already safe -- satisfied that we have not addressed the sound issue. we always had a phone line. i have no idea where that

came from. >> okay. thank you. >> i have to say that we aren encouraged that this is going in such a positive direction and it sounds like the strides that mr. perkins has made in the last month is what the entertainment commission was hoping for in the last two years. we did get a check along with a letter today from mr. perkins. i have copies. >> what's the date? >> it was, we received it today. >> what is the letter say? >> basically it's a payment for the citations for the last two years and talking about each condition and how they are

satisfying it. it does have a security plan in there. it does mention that he has the cellphone numbers for neighbors to call if there is a problem and it says they are still concerned with 1 and 2 because that would be satisfied in the appeals process tonight. >> okay. i would like a copy. >> but we do hope that this conversation that mr. perkins and brick and mortar continues. we don't want to lose another business. we hope it's a place where they can have live music and not bother their neighbors. i hope that the conditions that the entertainment commission put on the permit are not unreasonable and until they get the soundproofing that work that these conditions should remain in effect. i ask that

you uphold the conditions that were acted on. >> there has been a lot of green material here regarding the inspector and evidently the relationship with the permit holders. so at this point, going forward, is there a different inspector? >> the entertainment commission did hire a second inspector and i believe he's already made a visit to brick and mortar. that's been taken care of. >> i'm sorry, quick question, the limits on the operation of hours. how standard are those hours? >> that's pretty standard, normally the shows begin around 8:00 or 9:00. for a band to play for 5 hours, that's putting it out there. >> for other venues?

>> many venues around the city are restricted to 11:30 at night. >> i have a question, the appellant has in both opening statement as well as rebuttal commented that he's uncertain as to what he's paying penalties on. >> he was given a list through his council several times. >> the list and supporting documents >> they are also in the brief. >> i would agree there are some legibility issues. >> it's because they are done on carbon. >> could he have a more legible version. i think that would be helpful. and then there was one that was not even

filled out, i think. it just has a citation number on it. >> i'm not the inspector so i can't really vouch for that one. i know in our brief and when it was requested by the appellant's attorney that they were given the reason for those citations. >> i might be mist stating it. it might be just so light. that's the one. i think that's a legitimate complaint that i have heard. >> we can ask our inspectors to write harder. >> well, i don't know if this is the first time you have heard this complaint. >> i believe it's the first time that we've heard that complaint. it's my understand that go we have not had complaints before the citations were illegible from other venues. >> i'm talking about this particular one.

>> yes. we ready -- read it in his brief. >> at the time you had the opportunity to respond, it includes what i can't even read. >> i don't think it was brought up at the hearing. the original hearing date was may 7th, it was continued to may 21st in actuality in the five days that he says he found out about the hearing, he also had an additional two weeks. i don't recall that being an issue. >> okay. got it. >> i don't have anything. >> that raises a question. if the permit holders permit is up for hearing, wouldn't he be notified of the hearing? >> he was notified. >> how much time. >> the director did tell me she did send a letter and i'm not

sure why they didn't get it. >> is there a standard notice period? >> we set the agenda and we know about two weeks before the time what's coming up and we get the related agencies to make sure they are available. we would send it then. >> okay. all right. thank you. >> commissioners, the matter is yours. >> any comments? >> i appreciate everyone staying here late. this is what we do which is our commitment to this board. when the public comes out and sticks around, i

appreciate that. from what i have heard i don't feel there is sufficient evidence to substantiate all of this, i feel the conflict is not supported tonight. so that doesn't cause me any alarm or concern in terms of what the entertainment commission has done and the conditions applied to the permit. i don't have any concerns with upholding the commission's position here and i'm denying the appeal. >> you have a motion. if no further comments i would move to deny the appeal and uphold the commissions conditions on the permits on the basis of evidence submitted and the

record. >> so we have a motion from the president to uphold the imposition of these additional conditions on this permit and that's on the basis of the evidence submitted and the record below. on that motion, commissioner fung, aye, hurtado is absence , lazarus, the conditions is upheld. >> we have no further business tonight. this meeting is adjourned.

>> meeting of the san francisco ethic's commission will now come to order. >> commissioner renne? >> here. >> commissioner studley.

>> here. >> commissioner hur? >> here. >> and i would like to introduce our newest commissioner, brett andrews welcome. >> thank you. >> brett, perhaps you would like to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself. >> sure. so i have been here in san francisco for ten years. and i have been the executive director of positive resource center, at the mental health organization that provides benefits counseling and employment services. i have been active in the community at many different levels and i am just looking forward to participating in the ethics commission. over the years of having conversation around this type of work, what is very clear is that there is a lot of interest, and a lot of passion and a lot of knowledge. as i have talked to the commissioneran