music a primary use and then he will need a poe because it would be to charge, for people to come in. and so, the question, is, should we permit this? or not permit this? ? and i think at this point in time, i don't think that you can permit something, that is going to function in one way, and when it is an accessory use. okay? and so, i don't think that you can permit this. and you need to give it to the city attorney and maybe continue it. >> thank you. >> any other public comment? >> i am flabergasted by this conversation, frankly. let's go back, inspector edwards goes out there like a cowboy riding through the night and handing out citations, correct? and this poor guy is told that you have to get a permit.

so he goes in and applies for a permit, now i would argue and i have argued over the years that the fourth amendment takes place over the code. and it is the law of the land. if i have an art gallery and i am showing, films or i am, you know, doing something and i am not serving food and drink like a nightclub or restaurant then i don't need one, let's talk reality. reality, out on the street right now, and you know what i tell my clients, over permit. over permit. because, the guy or the gal, who is 6 months out of the police academy, and it is 2:00 in the morning or 12 in the morning and you have a band going, he does not known the fineries tf he wants to see the permit. and so the guys payed, whatever, $480 for a permit. and you know, go ahead and serve some water. give out coke, and give out cool-aid, but for crying out loud, i got a bunch of pictures

sent to me on friday night of a neighborhood in sacramento and it was unbelievable. three blocks of police on horses. and they were videoed. and the people, hundreds and thousands of people on the streets, art galleries having the openings and i said, what happened to san francisco? and i think that this discussion for the last ten minutes is exactly what has happened to san francisco. and i think that you ought to watch it on tv >> thank you. >> thank you. >> any other public comment? >> seeing none, public comment is closed. >> let's take a motion. >> i move to continue this permit until we get an opinion from the city attorney, of whether or not a permit is required for this space. that is my motion. >> there is a motion, is there a second? >> i will second that. >> all right. but, do we need to discuss it any more? people, you know how you are going to vote? >> all right. >> on the motion to continue? >> pending, discussion with the

city attorney? >> i would just, before we go further, i would like to know that if it is true that it was because i didn't understand, that a permit officer went in. >> our inspector went in. >> sorry. >> oh, and so he was contacted by the inspecters edwards and then we discussed it. and at first we didn't think that he needed one and then he decided that he wanted to explore the idea and start having or using his space as an entertainment and accessory use. >> and so, i have a question, if he is saying that he wants the option to serve food and beverages, then, why are we... >> fighting him. >> did he say that. >> i am not clear. maybe we should ask him to come up and clarify that. >> let's start paying attention when they speak, he did say that. >> he did say that. >> he said that he would do it,

he did not say that he wanted to do it. >> let's be clear. >> food and beverages is secondary to wanting to charge admission at the door. >> what does that mean? >> you want to do it? >> of course we want to do it. >> because you want to make some money. >> yeah. >> food and beverages only. not the door, just the food and beverages only. >> of course. >> you want to sell food and beverages or give them out? >> yes. >> packaged food and beverages. >> all right. >> so i was under the understanding that the main thing that would the permit for is to be able to charge at the door. >> yes. >> because we need to hire a door person and sit there alone at the door and our space is in the back. >> so, can i ask you then, if you could charge at the door and have private shows, do you still want to serve food and if you charge at the door, do you still... >> people do ask us, because there is a bar area, and we have a small food area, but we

just have not done it because we didn't know the legalities of being able to do it. >> and needing the way that this permit is layed out, do you want to meet the requirements of it permit? >> absolutely. >> all right. >> so, if that is the case. i will withdraw my motion, but here is the deal. if you want, if it is your desire to serve food and beverage, or food or beverage, you don't have to serve food you can just have food and water and if that is what you want, either give them away or sell them, and because, i don't find charge at the door anywhere in the cold here it might be here and i am not seeing it. and then, that is what you will have to... and to be obliged to get a permit. >> okay. otherwise, we don't need a permit? >> yes. >> possibility may exist. and do you have a band coming in between now and november 5th? >> no. >> you don't. >> as far as an event, we have

movies schedule. >> so my thought was if we continue it to our next meeting november 5th. get an opinion from the city attorney and clear it up for everybody including this gentleman. >> if he wants to serve water, only, is that a beverage? >> that is a question for the attorney. >> i don't think that anyone up here has a legal training or interpretation that can actually answer that in a way that would satisfy everyone. >> that is right. i agree with you on that. >> to be honest, what the gentleman said, was i mean he wanted the place of entertainment but we can't afford it and we thought of another alternative and like i was saying before we have had no complaints from the neighbors and we are basically alone there and we have a good space and i want to be used. >> so you want this. >> yes. >> and you got that clear. >> why don't you have a seat because we got to take a vote. >> thank you.

>> any other thoughts before... so did you retract your motion? >> i did, i am not retracting it, because i really think that if we are going to do our jobs, forcefully and well, we need to have a city attorney opinion that we can stand by as to this. because if i have an art gallery, and i want to have a cello player in the corner and i am not serving anything do i need a permit? i mean if i don't need a permit, why would i spend 30 cents on a permit. and we are here to serve the citizens and not here to tax them or to make them spend money for no reason. so i think that in order for us in my opinion, in order for us to do this well, i think that we need to know exactly have clarity on this part of 1060, i

think that the permits needs clarity on this part that they do not even know what it means because it has been changed so much over the years. over the last few years. >> so, i want to keep my motion, and i know that commissioner, seconded it. >> so. all right, so let's... >> any other comments? >> so we are speaking with a motion to continue until we get an opinion from the city attorney? >> which we hope will be november 5th. >> it will be definitely november 5th. >> okay. >> so commissioner akers? >> aye. >> to continue? >> aye. >> commissioner hyde. >> aye. >> commissioner joseph. >> aye. >> commissioner lee. >> no. >> commissioner campagnoli? >> aye. >> president tan? >> aye. >> and all right, so the motion passes, it will be continued. and our staff will notify you continuing means that we will have to wait until we get this opinion until we can actually

vote on the actual permit. >> okay, let's move on. >> okay. >> so the next item on the agenda, is sean manchester doing business as project one gallery at 251 rhode island looking for a place of entertainment. permit. >> as you said, this project one gallery has been operating at this location since 2008. and he is going to feature in-house bookings. and also to pursue, corporate events. and southern station, has met with them and they have decided to for the time being, go ahead with the previous permit, and which you will see, in there.

on that permit with one additional condition and that will be to all of those and southern station, and a list of the monthly calendar. >> great, good evening. >> and project one gallery, has been in existence since 2008. my wife and i purchased it, and began the process quite some time ago and we just closed escrow last week and our intention is to operate at largely unchanged. it has been a gallery, lounge and an event space since that time. and it is on 251 rode ilaond and it has, there are no residential neighbors i am going to say within, and actually there is none, in the immediate vicinity, three or four blocks in either direction. and as i said, the operation that we intent to do is slight cosmetic improvements and nothing major and the gallery, and the previous owner is going

to remain on as the direct tore program the art. and we also own a venue around the corner and so we are going to leverage our entertainment contracts at mighty to continue to improve on the entertainment and more in-house as opposed to a third party. >> i think that is about it. >> okay. >> okay. >> the police conditions, do you have them? >> i don't. but we did receive officer chan sent over what he believed to be the previous conditions, and the good neighbor policy, and this is the noise ordinance and there was an additional one that required us not to operate more than 78 db within the space and then, another one that said, no noise could be audible in the adjacent businesses. >> i have it right now, so the permit holders shall be

attached to the entertainment and the policy. and which means nothing outside of the establishment during the day and nighttime hours it violates code 49. and further, it shall be audible, inside of any surrounding business, or business, that violates 2900 and all doors shall remain closed and levels inside of the venue must not exceed, 78 db and the sound system cannot increased in size, or power or augmented without an additional approvement, and 149 per the fire department and the permit holder shall send a calendar of each month to the southern station and listing the upcoming events. >> and so that was on the old permit and 78 db is obviously very low. >> commissioner joseph? >> so, have you changed the sound equipment at all? >> no. >> and we... >> and your programming is going to be exactly the same?

>> it will be the same, electronic music. >> at 78 db. >> no, we have an issue. >> here is my only issue, we do sound tests part of what we do as this commission and we set the levels, i don't ever remember seeing a police condition setting a specific number for sound levels for any permit, that i can remember, and i have been here since the beginning and i find it, i would like to strike that, i am just... i find it, you know, arrogant to set a db level before this commission has had the opportunity to make a sound test. >> and i think that for me, i don't, i don't mind, having the rest of the police conditions.

but, i strongly object to the officer setting a db level that is our job that is what we do. >> and the other item that we had some concern with was that it said that the sound could not be audible at all in the adjacent businesses, our nations are live nation and ticket master and all of whom, vacate the building at 5:00 p.m., and sometimes they vacate later b we have the agreement with the building owner as well as all of the tenant and we have gone door-to-door and done the sound tests to show them what it will be like at happy hour and half hours and they have all agreed to no noise, increase in their physical space above their ambient before 6:30 p.m. and escalates after 6:30. but we intend to operate within the police code any way. i think that super seeds

anything that the land lords put foergts. >> if someone is not in their office, how is the sound audible? who is it like, >> if a free falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, i mean. >> the landlord has done that so that we can exercise the use of the space, for example, let's say that you are live nation and you want to work until midnight on saturday night, and we are making noise. that is our time to make noise in the building. we respect your time of quiet, this is our time. >> that way that the landlord does not have a headache and we have an arrangement on mighty because they are in a large commercial space which we have enjoyed for 7 or 8 years with no issues of the neighbors. >> you want to defer to your landlord's sound conditions? >> well, i think that the san francisco police code and ordinance actually super cede that because he has given us 40. and our system is not cap able of some odd db. >> could i get the police

conditions read again? >> yes. >> because i don't have them in front maoef and so it is hard to keep track. >> permit holder shall conform to the good neighbor policy. there shall be no noise odd able outside of the establishment outside of the daytime or nighttime hours that violates the police cold sections 49 or 2900. further, absolutely no sound from the establishment shall be audible in a surrounding business that violates 2900. doors and windows shall remained closed durings the hours of entertainment, sound levels inside of the venue must not exceed 78 db and the sound system inside cannot be increased in size, power or configuration or augmented without an additional sound test. approved occupancy is 149 persons, inside and per san francisco fire department. and permit holder shall send a calendar each month, listing the venues and the upcoming

event. >> so the third condition is the one that has the sentence that says further? >> yes. >> could you read that one more time? >> there shall be no noise, audible outside of the establishment during the daytime or nighttime hours that violates the san francisco police code, sections 49 or 2900, further absolutely no sound from the establish. shall be audible inside of any surrounding residence or business that violates 2900. doors and windows shall be remains closed. >> that violates 2900. >> so it is not really. >> it is saying, it is almost unnecessary. it is redundant a bit. >> yeah. >> but it is not saying anything. >> audible and violates the code. >> right. >> because the code permits for audible, >> so could we just strike the word audible, then? >> well, no noise. >> no noise that violates sections 49 and 2900. >> we cannot talk about this until there is a motion.

>> true. >> okay. >> so let's get any other questions for... >> is this a fast meeting tonight? >> yeah, this is supposed to be a fast meeting. >> go ahead and let's see if we have any police that would like to speak to this. >> okay. >> and if not, that is okay. >> we could move on to public comment then, and is there any public comment about this? seeing none, public comment is closed. and happy to take a motion. >> and i would make a motion that we approve the permit. and striking conditions that i am going to be a little fuzzy, on this. >> i am ready for you. >> the one about the db. >> 78 db. >> and the sentence that says, further blah blah blah blah blah. if we just strike that, how would that read. >> and then it would read instead. there shall be no noise odd able outside of the establish.

that violates 2900. >> all doors and windows shall remain closed during the hours of entertainment. >> and take out that middle part that further whole sentence. >> yes. >> instead, the third condition will be there shall be no noise audible outside of the establishment during the nighttime or daytime hours that violates san francisco police code sections 49 or 2900. all doors and windows shall remain closed during the hours of entertainment. >> okay. so that is already in the good neighbor policy, at number 8. >> so there shall be no noise, it is also in the code. that whole section. >> so we can take out the section. >> okay and i will amend my motion to take out come two conditions, db 78 and the audible with further language. >> okay. >> and did everyone get that. >> i got that. >> could we see if there is a

second for that. >> i second. >> okay. >> go ahead. >> i had a question. do you know the date that the permit was issued to the previous owners? >> it was 2008. >> it was 2008. >> yes. >> okay. >> thank you. >> all right, any further discussion about this? because, we can move on to a vote otherwise. >> all right. >> i just want to say that i correct me if i am wrong, but i do believe that the sound coordinates 49 and 29 have been amended since 2008 to increase, over all dbs from 5 to 8 outside. >> so that permit was prior to the upgrading of the police code, 29 and 49. >> yeah, that is what i wanted to know. >> i figured that is what you would do. >> thanks. >> all right. >> let's take a vote. okay. >> so this is on the motion to

approve with the police conditions. striking two and three. >> okay. on that motion, commissioner akers? >> aye. >> commissioner hyde. >> aye. >> commissioner joseph. >> aye. >> commissioner lee. >> aye. >> commissioner campagnoli. >> aye. >> and president tan? >> aye. >> the motion passes. >> and we will move on to the next item. >> thank you, for waiting patiently. this next item is the police department comments and questions and so i know that the officer has been sitting there. and thanks for your patience. do you feel like officer parker? >> hello commissioners and staff central station, and a little recap of what has been going on in the central district and i will do a run down, a battery on october 10th at 140 and broadway, stolen phone on october 6th at ruby sky and a battery with force on

october 12, at 340, 5:00 a.m. across from the ruby sky lounge, battery on a police officer of disturbing the peace on broad way and october sixth at 12 a.m. and aggravated assault at the balbal bar on 1133 grant avenue. october fifth at 10:15 at the parlor, and a drunk patron, tried to enter the parlor and was turned away and the patron refused to leave and threatened the staff and the people inside and the police were called and the subject was taken away and this is i have spoken in front of you before as far as when the parlor was doing things that you know we want them to improve on and but i wanted to point this out that is what we want them to do and sometimes the bars have the feeling if we call the police we will have a mark against us as far as a call for service and this is an example and we want them to call because by them calling,

it did not escalate the situation, the police, you know the person was not listening to what they were saying and refused to live the area and under the influence and the police were able to come and take the person away and i want to point that out as far as what they, and the things that they were doing right, and at this point club. and last thing was that we have been working with the neighbor and the hotel manager, in the area of 620 jones, lounge and the neighbors and the hotel, they have noise, patrons, traffic, music, and loitering concerns, and so i contacted the manager, over at jones and kind of went over the different points and the different issues, and we agreed with and some of the things that they did not agree with and i have been out on that block and it has been very loud but i can't say that it has contributed completely to jones but we have several clubs in the area and so when we look at a complaint like this, we kind of try to see what can the club do better? and you know, maybe there are

other clubs in the area that we have to look at also and then just part of it is dealing with the over all population that is on the street. in that area. and it is one only with jordan and we, attempted basically working with the things that we talked about and it was some and talking about the proper signage and lighting, and security staff, and he was, asking about what do you do when you are asking the patron to leave the area, that are loitering? and that is when we said it if you have a security staff that has good interpersonal skills and able to get the point across and will come across as hey you need to get out of here now, but i said that is when the signs help and so, even if you are just putting the signs up, and if you don't want them and put them up for 24-7 and just putting them up during those hours and when the person questions it, and he could say that it is not us, it is the city of san francisco and the sign is right there. and i have seen this in the past where it does take the

conflict away between the security, staff as well as the patron, because sometimes the person is just talking there and they are not aware of the rule and they think that the staff is just trying to hassle them. and they don't know that there is a particular rule. so we kind of went over that that putting up signs could help to get the compliance rather than the people defining what they want them to do. and it is still a work in progress. and i am still dealing with the neighbors, and they would like to see that this taken care of as well as the hotel. and i think that we are working and i think that it is a project in work. >> yes? >> and officer, you have noticed that the city is like under a housing boom. >> this is construction everywhere and i think he said that 40,000 units that might be going in. and increasing our population, and if... >> and just with the film. >> and that is just in the west. >> and the population is growing up everywhere.

>> and people are going to come to your neighborhood and in the broad way central stations and the area and union square and broad way and stuff. and if people are complaining about street noise in general people talking and walking and whatever. what do you think that the greatest challenge is going to be on our population increases by let's say two people per unit and 80,000 people in the city and most of which will be under the age of 45? >> what do you think? >> well, it is. >> if you are challenged. >> it is a challenge and it is just something that we will have to deal with, we don't have a choice as far as having the population double or going down by a third. it is what it is. and you know, looking at, if there is a complaint, we look into the complaint and see how we can rectify it and make it better. i have no problem over the population part but i definitely will be the person

who gets the phone calls for it. >> do you think that your phone calls will increase and your challenges will increase. >> by having more people, yeah. >> and you know, i think that we talked about it a while ago as far as expectations, whether it be the loitering law or blocking a sidewalk? and what we are looking for, you know, we are not getting perfection. and you know, if we look over and we see a staff that is actively trying to, you know, keep the sidewalks open and you know, on the building line, and you are going to have ebb and flow and that is really what we are looking for. and so, yes, sometimes it is going to be noisier, but, what is the club, and are they actively trying to take care of it. >> in a club like a parlor, where if you have to go to the club to smoke, and yet, there is a cue in front of the building to get in. and then there is some kind of a space, like a human being wide at the curve and in the building. and then, maybe, there is space, for another human being or two to actually walk through.

and that is a huge challenge for a nightclub. >> yeah. i completely do, and that is one of the things to talk about whether it be the setter on suter, or jones, and the things with the smaller sidewalks, grant avenue, a tremendous challenge, when we look uppeder, and you know, do we have the people having to walk in the street in order to get by? is that a situation? or do we need to double the effort and have the people and sometimes it is just going back and forth and guiding the people to the building line, and then making sure that the smokers, and maybe, are that the people are lining up and not bunched up and reminding the staff that is what we are looking for and we are explaining why. and i have noticed to open up

the communication and not sit up there with a pen and paip and her write up a violation and playing the got you game and i think that the education works pretty well. >> and thank you very much for that. >> any other questions or comments? >> no? thank you. >> any public comment on the police report? none? >> all right. >> that is the end of that. >> we are going to move on to item 5, commissioner comments and questions. >> so does anyone have anything that you would like to say right now. or forever hold your peace. >> all right. seeing none, we will move on to item 6, new business, requests for future agenda items. is there anything that anyone wants to put on the agenda in the future? >> i have a comment. i was saturday night, i was waiting for the mission bus and i just want to say that whatever at sloan was insane.

when the doors opened, all four or six lanes of of mission street were blocked by the crowd milling around and there are buses stopped on either side that could not get through. and there were four girls who hung out in that area threatening people at the bus stop all night. and i just want to say it because i have never really seen anything like that. where like, so i did go over it in the security to move the people around and i did call the police. because these girls were totally harassing people. so i mean, they were young, and 20-year-old girls and they were going to take me down. they were after me because i was just like, please, don't harass, the people here, at the bus stop. so i just want to put that out there, that sloan was out of control on saturday night. >> all right. >> is that something that would you like to discuss in the future? >> no. just a comment. >> got you. >> anything else that you