ability make them as maintain able and reliable for our customers as possible. you know, commissioner breed, brought up a lot of good points with regard to time when we repair them and when the portal covers will happen and that process with scheduling and so again, those are the typical issues of coordination and timing and schedule. i certainly think that we can try to align those things up to the greatest extent possible. bater is starting a pilot. and any cover will have a positive impact, both to the customer and to some extent the maintenance, and what that is, we don't know yet. >> before we get to commissioners yee and campos, director lamgarto had a comment. >> these are accident questions and i can tell that we touched on something and the escalators

and vehicles that we hear the most often. why they don't have a formal process, and the leader of the share of the references are evaluated the impact and we can work out to reach out to them and see what they have found. >> thank you. >> do you have any other questions? >> and commissioner yee?

>> thank you. and i think that sort of, and you mentioned it that all of us want to move in. yeah, i am a little surprised that don't have and we have not looked at this aspect in more detail in regards to having these benefits of having the canopy. in the sort of the gut feeling, which is not supported by any analysis, i would have thought that the canopy would have saved on maintenance and is desirable when you are walking down or coming down those escalator and nobody is spitting at you from on top and so forth. and it is pretty much throughout the world and in the u.s. the escalators are actually not exposed to the elements they are usually

inside or they gate and so forth. so, i would like to support the notion that we do a good analysis of whether as you mentioned between what exists today and in terms of the maintenance costs between the ones that are internal verses the ones that are external. because, if indeed it does not make any difference, i'm wondering why we are spending so much money, if it does make a difference, then we need to fast forward to basically support or to, yeah, support our investment. so, that, and i don't have a question it is more of a comment >> so scott broder actually manages the maintenance contract and he gave me a quick benefit cost analysis because he did look at it quickly and so i am going to let him just

briefly respond to a couple of the questions. >> good morning. and so we have kept this for years, and i have been over seing the maintenance for 30 years here and while covering a piece of machinery from the outside elements is always beneficial and it is going to make the equipment last long and her hold up better, and when there are properly built they will last 25 years and that somebody was interesting about what the life cycle is, and it is the life cycle for 25 years and we will return about 7 days a week and it is much more nan a department store or someplace else. washington, d.c., about five years ago started to put in the barricades that build them out of stainless steel and visited with the people and looked at their canopy and they are well built and stainless steel and no main nens and no paint or corrosion problems, they spent over a million dollars per

canopy five years ago and the estimate about $2 million. and so it is much more for a canopy than it is for an escalator so if you want a cost benefit analysis, which john asked me for last week, our new maintenance agreement just on the five new escalators we have five maintenance contractors and but with them it is about 12 hun. and times 12 times 3 years, and so if you spent a million dollars on the canopy and even if you did not have to do any maintenance and it just ran and ran and nothing went wrong, it will cost you more for the canopy than for the escalator. so, the benefits to muni of having a canopy is in the worth we can do maintenance, but we cannot do it on the outside and people work in the mechanical things in the rain and so we

have hold up and so sometimes maintenance has to be put off for a week because we can't safely work on it in those conditions. otherwise the canopies are not cost effective. really, in san francisco, as far as you know, maintaining the equipment. we have looked at it, if you had a ton of money and you just wanted to spend t it is better, but they don't pay for themselves in reduced maintenance and another thing is, they may charge us $1200 to maintain it per month and the same for the outside, when it was a great difference when they bid the contract they would see a big contrast there and they would be able to round them both together and charge $1200 for inside and outside. >> and so does that answer? >> thank you so much for being here. >> okay, thank you. >> and the next question, commissioner campos? >> i think that she wants to follow up with that.

>> commissioner yee. >> just a quick question. so the rain and the weather for the outdoor escalators it would make a difference if it was covered with the canopy or not? >> it is always better but it is not going to be cost benefit. >> because they are made differently. >> yeah. >> they are made specifically. and we make sure that everything is as water proof as possible. and our old ones have laminated parts and in the water and do the lamb nation and the new escalators and the way that you designed them and we are not having the issues. we probably have as much problem with human waste, okay? and we probably have more problems with that than with other things. and plus, we are now going to have the additional cost of maintaining the canopy which everyone will want to put the graffiti on and use it for the

shelter and we will have a lot of other factors that will come into play? >> there is no data that exists that canopies or that escalators that are covered and not covered as it relates to outdoor, there is not necessarily a life extension of the escalator. >> like i said, if you worked the numbers, if you did not have to maintain it for 25 years, he would still be hard prelsed to break even on the price of the canopy. >> okay, thank you. >> he wanted to respond from bart on his design and probably other benefits that we might not be thinking about. >> would i like to make two programs. and it is responding to commissioner breed and then wrap up my presentation. again, as the presentation indicated to having a canopy has a multiple benefit, it is clearly best practice and not invest by the california state code, and it is on the

experience, and the safety, security, and then, reduce the liability of the agencies like in the wet weather and also, in the enhancement to the reduction of the maintenance intensity, and so again, we see this, this is a synergy and it is a part of the escalator, and modernization program and that is why, it is so eager to get this going, because our money man had a call for clearly, the edge of our escalator system is there and just like the gentleman indicated in the 5 years and 30 years of the expensive e system and we need to have it going and until it is, they have a plan in place and by doing this pilot, we are

also learned the process of the design, and derive the design solution and take all of these issues and so it is ready to work with mta. and there is a department in san francisco. and so, there is no doubt that we will have this resource and readiness to move forward in the project as one time in the dpw, and the deputy director. >> thank you. >> we still have a number of other commissioners that wanted to comment. >> thank you. >> i have to say that the more that i hear about the canopy issue, the less i understand what the point of having them may be. and it seems like there is a difference of opinion between what the mta and bart is saying and so that is a concern.

and so, i would ask that we figure out that we believe that collectively that there is a benefit to the canopy and given that even if there is no maintenance for 25 years, you know, the canopy will still be more expensive. you know, is that necessarily the best way to use the limited resources we have? and even if it is done through a pilot is that really the right way to go? so, i don't, you know, hearing, this discussion makes me less comfortable. i do have a question about the main nens plan. i saw in the packet that there was a schedule but i did not see a plan included in the presentation. that is correct that there is no plan that has been finalized?

>> so, there is a so the scopes and the timing and when we will do maipt nens and how that works will be included in the contract and it does exceed the standard that sets themselves for these escalator and so our maintenance is higher than the recommended maintenance level and then scott broder here in the transit division, manages all of those contracts. for the maintenance of the escalators. >> i mean that i understand that, but maybe, i am off point here, but, to my mind, there is a difference between a

maintenance contract and a maintenance plan. i mean, the maintenance contract with this, the cone may be a part of the maintenance plan, but i don't necessarily think that the maintenance plan, it is necessarily, you know, limited to just, you know, a maintenance contract. and so that... for instance, a question that i have is, what is there a document that outlines what it is, that internal and mp a staff, and the bart staff is supposed to do visa vie, the contractor. >> and so commissioner to answer your question to the best of my ability. the maintenance plan, so if we purchase any piece of equipment or renew anything that we have have it be a traffic signal or a escalator or a rail the actual manufacturer sets out what the maintenance plan is, you should replace this part

every six months and you should check this component three weeks, so they established the plan within the document within the specifications that they provide to us. what we then in turn do in the case of escalators we set up a maintenance contract that says that we will replace these components in the period and we will check this piece of equipment within the period that is specified. and in the case of escalators, our standard of maintenance, when that work should happen, when those should be replaced exceeds what the manufacturers recommends for the escalators and within that contract, it does layout f there is an escalator failure you must respond in 24 hours, this step and this step will occur. and if we didn't and if you would like, we could fully provide the contract that lays out of that out and summarize and provide that to you. >> i think that will be helpful. >> but i would actually

question whether or not that sufficient in the sense of, i mean, that i would think that a maintenance plan should go beyond the individual contractual, you know, obligations of the manufacturer. you know? that a maintenance plan will actually outline what, you know, the responsibilities of internal staff actually are. and i would also ask, you know, whether or not we are thinking of doing anything differently, because i know from my own, or from our experience just in the civic center area, the escalators are broken all of the time. and so, are we doing anything different that we have been doing in the last, you know, few years? and i hope that we are. or is it just, you know, that

we are going with whatever the manufacturer is proposing, and the contract, and that is it? i do wonder, what other jurisdictions are doing, and my experience in dc having lived in dc is that their escalators were a lot more relyible than those in the bay area, i don't know if there is something else that they are doing. and i am surprised that your maintenance plan is your service agreement would come. >> i will let scott add to it. this is the process that we have had for maintenance of the escalators since they were originally installed in 1972. you are did ask the question of whether or not we did anything different and we actually did this round with the contracts the maintenance contracts are actually up kind of in the early spring of this year. and what we did was when the five new escalators went into operation, we actually tested

them because we knew that this maintenance contract would be happening. we actually held the main nens contract to actually test them in service and figure out what components would work and which once would make sure that it was actually that work and those failures were all considered as part of the maintenance contract. we also did as part of the presentation, we did no components and the other issues over the life of the existing escalators and did the best in the specification to make sure that they would last as long as possible. and if you want to add anything? >> is there anything else to the maintenance plan besides the contract would come? >> sure, one of the things that we have with our standard sop internally, which lays out what everyone does and what the responsibilities are for the station engineers and myself. and everyone and how the muni staff, deals with the elevators and whether there is an accident or entrapment and all of those things and so we do have an sop that lays out everyone's responsibilities in

the sfmta and our contract, is written by me and it is very stringent, it is one of the most out there. and it lays out, what the contractor is going to do with damages if they are not able to do what we have required them to do. and there are damages in there also. and then, in washington, d.c., they have a large system and 600 escalators in the system and they did put in the canopies, and but just called me last month and coming out next month to talk about the stuff and i have been out there to visit them in the past. and i think that a lot of the areas that are struggling with the canopies because as you can see they cost more than the escalators and so when the people are trying to install the new escalators to give them better reliability and because they don't have any safety devices that have come up in the last 30 some odd years and we are trying to get the safer escalators in here and so they are now required by code, and

the state of california, adopted a 17.1, which is the american society of mechanical engineers and i was just baft last week, discussing with the members and one of the hot topics are the canopies because a lot of the places are finding that they are so expensive to install that it preincludes them from being able to replace them with newer and safer and reliability equipment because they are spending the money on canopy and that is part of the reason this he is working on this and because that they need to replace them and install a canopy over it or you can't replace the escalators and so that is where they are at. and there are ways to other void doing that by doing what we did with what is called the (inaudible) model and we install it a brand new one inside of the twisting truss and it gets around that angle and you are able to replace the

escalator and make them safer with all of the codes without having a canopy. and we were in a situation with our scoping this project that the canopies were so expensive and we could install a bunch of new safe reliable escalators to a third more and have canopies over there and the older escalators out there with less safety devices on there and so we made the choice and we had to make the choice. >> so thank you. let's see. commissioner kim and then commissioner yee. >> i think that our comments are going to be similar to commissioner yee and campos. >> i am wrapping it around the issue and so the state is requiring it. as part of their releasing the funds on some of the escalators on the east bay. >> did you say releasing of fund. >> you said that the state is requiring the canopy? >> well the state permits all of the elevators in state.

>> like the city and county of san francisco, they have code enforcement and come out and enexpect once a year and they have adopted nc 17.1, which is the diverse of the code which requires canopy be placed on any new outside escalator. >> why aren't they required on the five that we replaced in phase one. >> because they are not classified as new. they are escalator, if we build one, it is okay, you don't need t but if you place a truss and everything. but you are not the only one struggling with this because it is happening all over the country. >> you are saying that the data is not showing that they make enough of a difference to warrant its cost? >> correct. >> so in other words, if you had some hotel courtyard or something and you could put up a lower price canopy that you will have to deal with the graffiti and vandalism and all of the things, maybe it will be more cost effective but it is difficult here to make it cost

effective. >> i am sorry that data is based off of what? >> so, the answer to your question is, there is state code, but now requires the canopies if you are fully replacing your escalator, and the projects that we are doing is renewing nem in place with the new component and parts which have been weatherized to deal with the situation that we are dealing with. bha we are paying based on the market and they are quoting us the same price and so that is part price of them. whether or not there is a cost benefit and those who actually do the work and are certified and bid on it are pretty much giving us the saint maintenance cost and the components that we

are using are made to withstand the exterior weather and everything that comes up with it. we can't control the human beings or anything else. one day, if canopies are installed and you know, seeing what happens with the bart pilot and the costs related to just maintaining, that portal. that also needs to be taken into consideration, so the actual savings on the escalator, verses now maintaining doors, and locks, and glass and removing the graffiti on a canopy, and so these are very complex issues, and we appreciate the questions. >> and i get that, but i just, you know like i said, if they are not cost effective i would rather put in another 30 million, for the pedestrian strategy, our pedestrian strategy is 34 million and these canopies are 30 and so i thought that they were cost effective that was my assumption, i see them all around the world and you see them in dc and it is, you know,

we are obviously tourists and so they are working and you don't get to experience on a daily level like we do here in san francisco and so i think that it is good to get that answer, as we move along and i think that is why we are asking so many questions about it, i want to take it out of the 20 year plan if it does not make sense. >> i think that the bart pilot will help. >> and i agree with commissioner breed on those is why do we need to look at the bater pilot when we have so many around the world. why is this 19th street a better comparison for us than dc, and shanghai and i mean, that i guess i don't know why we can't look at existing, i think that maria has offered and our staff we can certainly do the research and check in with other agencies and see if it actually scott is an expert and this is 25 years of experience, working with other transit agencies and he is giving you his level of experience. >> could i just say that it is almost noon and we have five

other items but it is so valuable to have scott here, with you, because it is shed insight that we really needed. >> and we, i absolutely want to say that we appreciate these questions. and it is good for us to be in this forum and to present you with this information. and so we can understand how these operations work. >> commissioner yee. >> i don't want to beat a dead horse to death. >> i am asking, i guess, that we do, analysis, of not only the cost but the benefit and so forth, but one of the things that i want you to look at is even though the maintenance contract is here, and and the days and the ex-attorney really escalators, and the over the internal ones over a two-year period and the other thing that you should look at is, it is not just about escalators it is about the steps also. and i recall, years ago, when i was going down the steps on the

rainy day, i just happen to hear someone yell and she was actually falling for and she slipped and i caught her, barely, her arm. and she fell and it broke her fall. and otherwise she would have been in the hospital. and do we have times when the people fall because of the rain and so forth. >> yeah. >> and you should say that it is included in your analysis. >> thank you. >> and we have a executive director chang. >> thank you, i would like to suggest that if we could work with the staff and look at this holistically and come back to you with a recommendation and there is a maintenance cost. with the canopies and whether we have the benefits of the security would require the gate investment as well and so i want to make sure that when you ever looking at the capitol cost you have the canopy, the

gate and maintenance and the safety and the other risk and issues that are covered and addressed in the analysis. that will be agreeable with our colleagues we would be happy to do that. >> let's open up up for public comment, is there anyone that would like to speak? >> seeing none, public comment is closed. commissioner breed? >> i am going to go ahead and make a motion to approve this item. i think from my perspective, the fact that we do have matching funds, the fact that, you know, we do have a plan in place. and we are looking at moving this project forward within the next couple of years, also gives us time to really look into the details of canopies and other things that we need information for. and i want to make sure that mta continues to collaborate with these various agencies and

that we have a clear understanding on what is the best plan in order to maximize this large public investment or any public investment related to any of these transportation projects but i think that i am really actually excited about the possibility of doing this work for these escalators because it is a bit of a challenge, especially getting your luggage up them when they kind of stop in the middle and you know what i am talking about, things get stuck and it gets crazy and so i would like to see them replaced sooner rather than later and happy to move this item forward. >> could i add that we are also talking about the bar let street scape improvements and the dpw cleaning and equipment and from our director, the recommendation i would like to put a condition on the escalator rehabilitation and the condition would be that the mta give us a fuller plan and

work with the ta staff to do that and so that is a friendly amendment to commissioner breed's motion. >> i accept the friendly amendment and i also realize that, i have made a request that we implement the canopy and i just want to make sure that i make it clear that we add to explore the possibility of what is most appropriate and cost effective with regard to protecting our public investment. >> and thank you, so much to you for the especially useful insightful information and thanks from the bater and the design that you walked us through the rationale and also, jak, and could we take that motion without objection? thank you. >> could you call the next item? >> i think that we did public comment? >> we did.

>> item five, recommend adoption of the san francisco transportation plan this is an action item. >> before rachel comments i will say that i think that this effort in development of this san francisco transportation plan has been an extremely transparent and community engaged process and i am really happy that it is laying out our city's priorities through 2040, so the next 25-plus years, and i think that while the mayor's task force has complimented this effort by identifying the funding for the key projects, the transportation plan as presented is really a broad view that is balancing regional transportation needs, equity, as well, and the needs of all of our riders in san francisco, and i just wanted to thank, rachel for the great process, >> thank you, principal transportation planner, i will be brief and there is a lot in here and let me know if we