come to the staff thing. and i think where i agree with commissioner keane to a certain extent is that if you have an item on the agenda that you are allowing some outside party to use your a-v equipment because say it's your architect or whatever else it is. if somebody in the public came to you and said, we would like to in response to what they're going to say, we would like to show how the drawing should be different. the only way now they can do it is come in with hard copy or something and hold it up and put it in the record. and it would seem to me that if you invite somebody in support and somebody comes to you and says, we would like to be invited even though we're not going to support you, no, we won't invite you because you

aren't going to be supporting us. >> i understand what you're saying, commissioner. it's not a matter of supporting. it's not taking a stance on any given issue. it's simply providing the information that then the commission lib rates on. >> so, can i ask -- >> well, first of all, i want to bring this up as a former member of the library commission. first, i think we're being misled a little bit, the language of invited presenters i think is misleading. my recollection is that a-v presentations are only used to inform the commission on the business at hand at the library. and because so much of what the library does has to do with construction or, you know, architectural renderings, the budgetary presentation which you make, you know, that's how

the a-v equipment as i recall has been used. so, i think it's misleading to say that you're invited people who use it. so, if you're inviting outside guests to make presentations that's one thing, but i don't ever recall you having outside presenters just doing a presentation about something. and as far as friends of the library, friends of the library are a part of the day-to-day business at the library in terms of their support for the library and all of the cooperative projects which they have with the library. so, that stands to reason that there is a need for presentations. but aside from that, i have a question about what other commissions do and what kind of a precedent it's going to set if we feel that the library commission should have -- should make, you know, special

arrangements for the public to use the a-v, then what we're saying is that every single commission, including our own, should have access to either the, you know, whatever a-v technology is being used. so, i don't know where that takes us, but i think that that has to be considered. >> commissioner, if i can respond just in part. first of all, i do concur with you that the choice of language is not about inviting any member of the public to present. and then secondarily, in looking at other commissions, other commissions that are outside city hall do not allow for audiovisual during public comment. two examples are the housing authority and the health department. so, you're correct that it would set a precedent for all the others outside city hall to do so. >> commissioner andrews? >> well, it seems to me we were talking -- now i'm just getting to the dollars.

we were talking about cost. and the $40,000 keeps rattling around in my mind. and i was wondering if we could split the difference in this. at least maybe go back and revisit it and for the cost of -- and if it's about just basically heightening the level of presentation, not to this degree, but a -- an overhead projector and a screen that could cost $5,000 could very well move the needle in some kind of way. and that's why i wanted to hear how many options you've fully explored to ultimately see if you could satisfy this, satisfy this request. >> commissioner, i think i would be willing to go back and explore that overhead projector concept. i know that when we first explored it sometimes it raises other issues, but certainly --

we certainly want to be respectful to the process and to, again, do our due diligence. again, the $40,000 expenditure is at the bottom end of it and we've also had conversations with mayor's office of disability. it triggers some other major modifications in the auditorium if we needed to literally take that [speaker not understood], you want to speak to that? >> good evening, commissioners. roberto lombardi, i'm the facilities director at the library. i have some experience in this regard, actually work on this building with you you have very, very good accommodationseses for a-d-a provisions. the library unfortunately was built earlier than this building, was remodeled ~. and, so, when the auditorium was constructed there were some hasty things done at the end. regulations concerning a-d-a really hadn't been adopted yet in the city. so, one of the challenges we face now is the [speaker not understood] literally has a podium which looks like it's about, say, a quarter of the

size of this podium and was rather hastily installed. some seats were removed just before the building opened. people said, oh, my goodness, we haven't made accommodation here for public comment. so, the trouble is that when we do these projects now, it's under the very, very close scrutiny of the mayor's office of disability. luis mentioned the $40,000 might be a low estimate. when i spoke with susan missener who was the director of m.o.d., she pointed out a situation that's not untypical. once you actually start doing the analysis you may wind up with a large project, all the way up to and including the possibility when we install an a-d-a compatible podium, since we're talking about podium that has a lot of equipment in it, has to be able to rise and lower, that's what we put in the bayview community center recently. you start looking at the clearances around it. all of a sudden if you start wiping out the seating behind the podium, you can actually go as far as triggering a complete

redo of all of the seating in the carrette. i'm not saying that would definitely happen. i spent many years in dpw construction management, so, experience with this. many times m.o.d. doesn't really know what exactly is going to be triggered and they can't really tell you until they have the drawings, the architect is really designed exactly what's going to be there. and they do some -- parts of their job is to do some interpretation of the code. so, the concern from my end as facilities director is that it is actually difficult to ascertain exactly how extensive the work could be, but it could did all the way up to if you start removing seats that m.o.d. [speaker not understood] could require equivalent seating in the auditorium. and only way to do equivalent seating is remove all the seating -- equivalent seating, you don't know, rather than having the a-d-a accommodations at the front or at the back, it's an auditorium where you

see the accommodation scattered throughout the auditorium in kind of an even way so there really is an analyst for people who need accommodation to not feel that there is only one part that can be -- so, i just wanted you to know it's kind of a big technical problem, difficult to nail down. >> so, mr. lombardi, what mr. commissioner andrews' proposal of having a simple overhead projector next to the podium, no changing the podium, put a screen? >> the problem we get into -- i know it's very difficult for people not in the construction business to believe how difficult some of this stuff can be, but you are all very familiar with the city's systems, too. the problem is he we can't just run wires from the podium across the floor. that for sure is going to be an a-d-a problem. so, we have a concrete floor. we wind up having to core through the floor, you wind up having to run conduits under the floor. you wind up coring back up under the stage to get over to where the rest of the equipment is. and it gets worse because at

the main library, you can't core the floors without x-raying the floors before you do that because they're loaded with electrical conduit, piping, reinforcing steel. the next thing you know, you have to call out an engineer from dpw to tell you how to detail this 3-inch hole you have to make. so, it gets -- that's why, that's why these things always become more complicated than one would like. >> any other questions for mr. lombardi? >> so, i just want to be clear. you've already, then, fully explored that? >> we explored the option that i just described, which is that how could we get -- can we get wire, data wire power? because we'd have to run power out there and data wire back and explore the option of running in and for the overhead, too. so, we explored that option of getting connectivity between that area and the podium that is up on the stage. but we didn't -- at that point the information if we do an

a-d-a podium up there, there are some otherish uz too that come up. the exploration, we didn't go forward with it. we got the cost if we power up the podium we have right there [speaker not understood]. i hope that's had helpful if there are any questions i can answer. >> that's helpful. i want it to be clear you were talking data and i hadn't even gotten -- i hadn't even got that hectionv far. i was just wondering about power. >> yeah, we would run data back -- >> like our elementary school teachers taught us. >> [speaker not understood] the building was built a few years later. again, when the technology is there, but if you're building new, it's really a simple matter to put it in. >> are there battery powered overhead projectors? >> i don't know. i don't know the answer to that because i'd have to -- i would really have to look at the expertise of our i-t division to tell me that. i know technology changes a lot, too. >> any other questions for mr. lombardi? okay. is there anybody here speaking

on behalf of the complainant? mr. hartz is not here. so, we're not taking public comment yet. i understand, sir. >> are you an attorney representing mr. hartz? no. >> okay. then we are still conducting the hearing portion and we will, before we vote on the matter, we'll ask for public comment. even though ray is not here? >> right. okay. >> commissioners, discussion on this? >> could i just make sure i know what the procedure is? this comes to us from the sunshine task force? >> right. >> and they have made a finding that the library is not in compliance and the way we are dealing with it here, the burden is upon the library to

convince us that they are, they had the burden of proof to show us that they are. and we have to find that they have convinced us in order to -- [speaker not understood]. it's not the library. it is mr. herrera personally, according to the referral from the sunshine commission. first, they initially held the commission, the library commission in violation. then they had a new hearing, and then they ended up just charging mr. herrera. >> just mr. herrera. >> as i read it, it says the written order, october 2nd, 2013, the task force again heard the matter. it found luis herrera in violation of the sunshine ordinance. it determined [speaker not understood] and referred the order to the ethics commission. so, that, one might think there is a fairly serious question a

to whether there is a proper body against whom to charge. mr. herrera is an employee. >> yeah, i think proceeding against the library is one thing, but proceeding against mr. herrera is a whole different situation. whether we have the proper party before us for us to take action, i think commissioner renne raises -- >> the referral is against mr. herrera, so, he's the proper authority. it's -- the sunshine ordinance task force found him in violation of 67.15 sections a and b which deal exclusively with public comment. so, the question the commission has to decide is was the task force correct in making the determination that mr. herrera violated toes two sections.

~ those two sections. >> well, i don't think i'd have any problem making the decision that the task force was correct in terms of the library not being in compliance. i have some hesitation in regard to putting it all on the head of an employee of the library. i'm troubled by that. >> on the procedure, i would agree with you clearly the library commission voted on this matter and decided that they were not going to make the accommodation. to the extent there is a liable party, it doesn't seem to me like it is mr. herrera in this instance. >> i agree. >> on the substance, i do have some concern with a policy decision that basically says that a presenter is the same as a member who is speaking during public comment. i mean, i think that's set for

a whole host of potential issues down the road. how do we then limit a speaker to any of the -- how do we not limit them to any of the other constraints in public comment? as a policy matter think, and as a matter of the sunshine ordinance task force do not think that the law there is meant to cover those types of presentations. now, whether we reached that or not i guess is a different issue, but -- >> i disagree with you on that point. but on the point of who is the proper party before us, i don't think we have the proper party before us. >> commissioner hayon? >> i don't understand why is it not sufficient to hand out material to the public that they can look at while you make your presentation or your comments as a member of the public? it seems to me that given the

many problematic buildingses in which commissions have to perform their duties, that makes the most sense would ~ without having to create special [speaker not understood] av, et cetera. i would think being able to hand out complete packets for someone's presentation should meet the requirement of providing the information to the public and having a fair hearing. >> i agree. >> commissioner, you wanted -- >> is it appropriate to make a motion at this point? >> yes. well, let's see if there's other comments from commissioners. no? any further comment? should we take public comment? if you want to -- >> yes. >> before a motion is made. public comment on this matter.

dr. derek kerr. i'm a little bit uncomfortable with the assumption that the members of the public are somehow inferior to any experts that you or a commission might want to engage in giving a presentation. so, it really depends on how much you value the public. and the ability to show a table or a graph gives one more power to express an idea. so, there has to be limits to conduct meetings. there has to be some structure, but the public should not be made inferior to architects, experts who come and speak to you. thanks.

>> that's a good point, dr. kerr. first and foremost, we have to have an understanding about three individuals. one is ray hartz. another is [speaker not understood], and james chafee. otto rich, astute, stellar individuals who are very well versed with the digital medium. now, most of their deliberation was not on point and it wasn't on point because what the city is doing not only the commissions, but even at the board of supervisors is depriving advocates, people with knowledge, not giving them

sufficient time. for example, if you go to the board of supervisors, they're limited to two minutes. if they see me, they limit it to one minute. that's not funny. ray, mr. hartz, much like myself, are very well versed with the freedom of information act. he served in the navy, i served in the army. we feel strongly the need to express ourselves with the best technology available. not once have you commissioners mentioned any equipment that's wireless. do you know of any laptop that's wireless that can

perform all that you stated? so, we have an expert or a facility manager here who says about digging under the concrete floor, installing a pipe and making -- and blowing this out of proportion. any wireless laptop can perform that action. finally, mr. herrera has been charged on other issues, like donations [speaker not understood] advocates not trusting him and not trusting the friends of the library. i don't go for those meetings, but i read about it. i do not trust the friends of the library. and i see mr. herrera here taking a position to defend

himself unnecessarily, wasting our time. there can be a solution. thank you very much. commissioner hayon? >> well, first, number one, the comment about holding the public inferior, i definitely would ~, not to say that is our point of view, and i think tonight was a perfect example of how important public comment is in terms of swaying a commission and swaying -- and helping to make a decision. so, i don't think that is what this discussion is about. i do have a question about the wi-fi aspect. is that something -- that is feasible since it's so

commonplace now. >> i do think that it may be feasible. we went with the best advice we had from i-t. i'm not trying to draw direct parallel, but i subscribed to mlb premium because i love the giants. and the first night i got it on my blu-ray [speaker not understood] and it kind of went like this. ~ in the middle of the game. i can tell you the opinion of our i-t people is if we want to do wi-fi, if we want to do wi-fi presentations, we do hard wire. we still do that at the library, offer both. at the library, we have tons of wi-fi for you, but we also have tons of hard drive. i can't tell you, you know, that as we speak there isn't somebody who has just come out with a product last week that will [speaker not understood] wi-fi from here to the library. the best advice we've had so far is if we want it to be reliable and we want to not have those kinds of interruptions is still advisable by the experts to

hard wire for the moment. i don't know what the future will hold. i think we could all get eventually wireless, but i don't think we're quite there yet. >> thank you. >> just to follow-up. i do -- going back to what i said earlier about, you know, my question about how other commissions handle such requests, i think that anything that we consider has to be something that should apply to all commissions. and i repeatedly see the library commission and its issues coming before us. i don't know to what we can attribute that, but i find it curious that there is so much attention paid to the library and its commission and its activities. but you know, maybe we need to just explore what is possible not only at the library, but with other commissions as well, including our own for that matter.

>> i have a question for the city attorney. if we were to find that there was otherwise -- that there was a violation, it wasn't mr. herrera himself. it's that -- is that feasible? does the city attorney have a view on whether the commission, the library commission or the library is the appropriate party in light of the history of this matter? >> well, i think that the decision currently before you is whether to find mr. herrera personally has committed a nonwillful violation. i think it is currently beyond the scope for you to come to a decision about whether the library commission has committed that violation. so, i don't know if that

answers your question completely. >> i guess what i ineloquently asked is could the commission be a body named in a complaint and something enforced against the commission? i'm just wondering is mr. herrera always going to be the, the named respondent in a situation where something is brought against the library given his position there? >> um, you know, i don't actly know the answer to that. i would assume it is possible to name the commission as a whole given that in order to find a violation against mr. herrera, a conclusion has to be that it was a personal violation that he committed of the sunshine ordinance. so, i would leave it at that. >> when somebody files a complaint at sunshine, first they're filing a complaint, names the respondent or respondents, which is generally how things proceed. one of the things that hasn't come to this commission yet and

is observably possibly a problem for the future is the task force does sometimes take it upon itself to change who the respondent is, you know, with or without the permission of the complainant. that is not an issue for discussion tonight, but it may be an issue eventually. >> i see. >> a couple meetings back, four months ago, we talked about the respondent who is the key person to represent the organization. i think it goes a little more to your point, commissioner hur. it feels like it's a little bit of a mix of that. a couple months ago we had a person in front of us and the question was, is this person representing the entity? is this the key person who should be representing as the respondent the entity? or is it the person themselves? so, i wasn't necessarily sure

if mr. herrera was the spokesperson for the library or would there be someone else if the library were named, would we still find mr. herrera sitting here next month. that's the question. >> right. i mean, i think that is in some ways the question. although it does appear here that he has been personally named. >> um-hm. >> but as a practical matter it may not be different. although i see some conferring going on. >> is that a question for mr. herrera? >> go ahead. >> sorry.

it doesn't -- i mean, i'm looking at 67.34 and, you know, it deals with willful -- it deals with willful failures of owe official misconduct and it states that willful failures have to be directed at individuals. it's silent as to nonwillful failures. and then when you look at chapter 2 of the ethics commission's regulations regarding sunshine ordinance, you know, in section 1a, 1b, it refers to nonwillful violations of the sunshine ordinance by elected officials, department heads, or city officers and employees. so, it doesn't appear to contemplate the possibility of a nonwillful violation by a commission as an entirety. >> or by the library, for example. >> or by an entity, right.

>> so, it sound like it's a little unclear as to whether there would be anybody else that a complainant could name in a situation like this. >> right, right. i think that's right. i mean, i don't know whether it's possible, for instance, to name a librarian. if the librarian is named in his capacity as the sort of representative of the library, it may be the fact that it's a nonwillful violation means that it's possible that's what's happened. it seems ambiguous from the complaint itself. it seems like the complaint specifically names the librarian in his capacity as an individual.

>> commissioner, you had a motion? >> i would propose -- i would make a motion that the commission finds that mr. herrera has sustained his burden of proof to showing that there was no violation of the sunshine ordinance. ~ commissioner renne >> is there a second? >> i second. >> commissioner hayon? >> i would like to ask to be recused from this vote as a former library commissioner. i don't want there to be any appearance of a conflict of interest. >> kind of should have done that before we he started discussing the question. >> oh, okay. so, what does that mean? >> you can still -- >> we would have to have a vote on the recusal. it would have been preferable