around it pretty well with my chair but i'm concerned with those who can't move when it gets very very crowded. i have more concern about that. i know we talked about it in our outreach. i thought i would bring it to this meeting and see what if we can talk about it too. thank you. >> councilmember kostanian? >> thank you. a question, how much more of an increase do you see in size for public accommodation? >> i want to make sure i understand your question. is it in regards to the wheelchair zone? >> possibly yes. >> so, the wheelchair zone is

comprised with the federal registry dimensions. i believe they are 32 x 48. it has some extra room beyond that. does that answer your question? >> i'm thinking about other times of the day also especially in the rush hours? >> we will have about 10 percent more standing room per car. so i think in general, we'll be better off having more cars and that will make a big difference. >> thank you. >> now, i just have a few quick questions. then we'll go to a break and then we'll come back. we will hear from the staff and go directly to public comment. thank you for being patient with the crowd. this is a very important

issue today and we appreciate your patience. just right off the bat, thank you for coming today and talking to us about these issues. they are great bart cars. one of the questions i had was, could you give me your impression or your opinion on how, on the process for how the bart accessible task force has been working with bart representative and if you can shed some light for how that process works. >> sure, we also have in the audience the chair and vice-chair of the atf. they may also in the public session be able to describe more fully how that works. but they produce agendas based on their

assessment of what kinds of issues in the bart system need attention that could be in the stations in the parking lots, a lot of accessible path issues, it could be new stations that we are building. i know they are working hard on that. because that's a real chance to come up to code with upgrades. there is also a lot of reinvestment in bart stations and that is something they weigh in on. and then also there is, you know, a project managers that partly for compliance reasons they approach the bart accessibility task force to agenda ized and item to get the feedback to get the right design from the beginning. in my case, that was what we did. it was something that i felt was really important. i think i mentioned earlier i was able to meet with them at least 8 times so far especially one

session, we did one session at the ed roberts campus to do a two dimensional look at the floor space of the new cars. that was just one of those first steps. their input has been invaluable. in many cases we've been able to make changes . i talked about them today. in many cases they weren't for practical reasons. but i would say that over all their input was one of the most important parts of the process over the last 3 years. >> thank you. and with that, i will stop and we will go to a break for 10 minutes. and when we come back we will resume with comments, questions from staff and then we'll go directly to public comment. thank you.

before we resume, i would like to go ahead and just let you know that i had been a little negligent before we went to break. we will go to staff comment and then to agenda item 7. which we'll be having feedback from disability and senior organizations on the bart new car design. we have three speakers there. then we'll go to public comment on agenda item 6. i apologize. it was a little off kilter the way it was presented. for now let's continue on to comments and questions from staff. >> yes, thank you, cochair.

is it okay if i ask the speaker a couple of questions or is it just comments that you seek. >> questions. >> questions are acceptable? great. i had a question. it sounds like congestion is going to be so much better by having more cars and a different design that allows for more people to stand, but how does it factor in increased rider ship based upon the growth of our system over time. will we see those benefits disappear as more people start using the system? >> i think that that would depend on whether we can continue to increase our capacity and pace with that growth. we think that the train control upgrade project

will have a significant effect on being able to put more trains through the entrance by -- transbay. we don't know at what point where we do reach the capacity where train control improvements aren't helpful anymore and even if we had more cars we couldn't use them. once we get to that point, the region just needs to think about other ways to improve capacity and i know the metropolitan transportation commission has left a number of options. it could involve a bart tube or other forms of transportation. that could be a major regional question. >> then i also had one more question. for those that couldn't see the powerpoint on the screen, i think it was difficult to fully visualize

the placement of the pole in relationship to the door openings and the accessible seating. could you maybe go back to your powerpoint and walk us through that specific issue so people can visualize it? >> sure. so, you are looking for me to sort of walk someone through as if they are boarding a side door, is that right? >> sure and to describe the placement of the pole in relationship to the door opening in relationship to the opposing feet that you have to travel to the accessible seating area. >> okay. let me provide a little bit of context. there is three doors on each side of

the train. i'm going to respond to your question as if i'm boarding one of the end doors which is an area that has both priority seats for people with disabilities as well as a wheelchair zone. now battery trains -- bart trains do open from both sides. it's almost like i need to do 2 cases. if it opens from the bottom of that drawing, the left side of the car, as you board, you would have a double side ways facing green on the left and that would be for seniors and people with disabilities. a little bit to the right is a tripod pole right in the middle of that area but offset a little bit off center to open up a wider aisle. sort

of diagonally to your left about 45 degrees will be the wheelchair designated area. to your right as you end would be two blue side facing seats that would be general seating. then about 45 degrees to your right as you enter are more of the green priority seats. so that gives you a general sort of 360 sense. we are thinking about ways to better community with people with vision impairment and blind folks, this diagram. i have recently as today been in touch with the lighthouse for the blind and talked with them about possibly doing an tactile version of it. >> okay. i think that would

be helpful, thank you. >> to the chair, thank you cochair. my question is a little unrelated. are there any emergency protocols for evacuation on this new train car design that is different from the previous design? have you thought about how you will evacuate folks and what the pole is going to do and how the aisles are going to work and with the other doors, with the previous door technology there were certain things you had to do to open the doors. how is that going to work now? >> i think i can give you a partial answer. you are asking something that is beyond my knowledge base. i can point out a few features. we will have emergency door releases that could be used in some

evacuation scenarios. those would be at each door at an accessible height. they will operate slightly differently than the old ones. so there is a need for education when the new cars are put into the system. i think most bart evacuations from what i'm told are through side doors. and we would have more doors. so it should help with evacuation. i know one of the features of the new train cars involves a train operator being able to have better communications with can ustomers in an evacuation scenario and one of those improvements is that they will get a head set that will let them be mobile and communicate while they are out of the cab.

>> moving on to agenda item 7. we have information item. feedback from disability and senior organizations on the bart new car design. we are going to start with lisa maria martinez with the lighthouse for the blind and visually impaired san francisco. following these speakers we'll go to public comment and if you would like to make a public comment, if you would fill out a card at this time. >> hi, brian bashin of lighthouse is unable to make it today. he prepared some notes for me to present today. my name is lisa maria martinez and the coordinator at the lighthouse. let me move along to what brian has to say here. he writes "even though we were were told that you new bart

cars which will start arriving in 2017 will have automated announcements there has been no testing of the speaker system and it wasn't included in the mock up. the mock up had really great visual graphics, but if you are blind these are meaningless compared with the current public address systems now on the cars. and just in asserting something here, i heard earlier in the presentation that by mr. wine stein that the automated announcements will be prerecorded but he also mentioned that there will be information displayed on these screens that passengers want to know and i'm very concerned if they are not prerecorded, i as a blind person and all the other blind and low vision passengers who ride bart will not have

access to this important information that all bart passengers want to know. also i heard earlier about this" clear the path "tam pain, -- campaign, the prerecorded message that the train operator can push when they see someone with a disability on the platform" , personally i find this offensive that a train operator knows what a disabled person looks like since many disabilities are invisible but might require the need for the seats nearest the door. and i don't understand why those cannot be automated. going back to brian's notes here. though bart is proud of it's supposed attention to our community, even a cursory look to the cars shows there is

oversight. there is no label anywhere on the cars. sometimes blind people might want to phone or text a friend to meet in car no. 4. we need those labels. bart professionals haven't thought of that. i have to say personally here in insertion i find the current labels rather useful. a minor point, the bike spaces now are long enough for a tandem bike, but the new ones are not long enough to take a tandem bike and this will exclude those of us who ride tandem bikes with sighted pilots to take a bike without blocking the entry way for people who need greater access. when bart needs to put in an electric outlet, lay some water pipes, it will

consult with professionals to get this done. but either inside or outside of the organization. somehow, though, when it comes to the needs of the disability community, bart drops this professionalism. if there is any input at all, it is bart seeks it from folks who probably have a lot of experience riding battery and -- bart and give a lot of feedback but some of the accessibility designs going on in the new fleet of the future, really need the attention of the individuals, architects who know about accessibility and design, orientation and mobility specialist. we heard earlier that there were multiple phases prior to this final train phase that has gone on for the last few years that have to do with design. whenever were the professionals that know a thing or two about

disabilities and access. bart despite being a huge agency apparently does not have an ada coordinator almost like every large government agency in the bay area. why? many of the accessibility problems with the new fleet of the future could have been prevented with proper professional consultation with experts in the field flt an ada coordinator could have been the catalyst to make this happen. nearly all of the positive disability attributes of bart that are currently implemented have been done so under protest at the end of a court order. bart could change the current paradigm by doing right by the blind the first time by talking with us and safe taxpayers millions in unnecessary payments to a stable of bart contract lawyers. those are his notes.

that's all i have to say. thank you. >> thank you. >> next, we have jessie lorenz executive director, senior disability action san francisco. >> all right. thank you council and thank you mr. wine stein for the wonderful presentation. my name is jessie lorenz and i'm the executive director of the independent resource living san francisco. i'm here to talk about an issue about but of the critical avenues of the issues of our center and also for the california foundation for independent living centers. a statewide organization that is comprised of independent living centers from all around the state of california. we have some issues with the current bart car design and that's why we are here today. i want to premise my comments by yi