was presented. for now let's continue on to comments and questions from staff. >> yes, thank you, cochair. is it okay if i ask the speaker a couple of questions or is it just comments that you seek. >> questions. >> questions are acceptable? great. i had a question. it sounds like congestion is going to be so much better by having more cars and a different design that allows for more people to stand, but how does it factor in increased rider ship based upon the growth of our system over time. will we see those benefits disappear as more people start using the system? >> i think that that would depend on whether we can continue to increase our

capacity and pace with that growth. we think that the train control upgrade project will have a significant effect on being able to put more trains through the entrance by -- transbay. we don't know at what point where we do reach the capacity where train control improvements aren't helpful anymore and even if we had more cars we couldn't use them. once we get to that point, the region just needs to think about other ways to improve capacity and i know the metropolitan transportation commission has left a number of options. it could involve a bart tube or other forms of transportation. that could be a major regional question. >> then i also had one more

question. for those that couldn't see the powerpoint on the screen, i think it was difficult to fully visualize the placement of the pole in relationship to the door openings and the accessible seating. could you maybe go back to your powerpoint and walk us through that specific issue so people can visualize it? >> sure. so, you are looking for me to sort of walk someone through as if they are boarding a side door, is that right? >> sure and to describe the placement of the pole in relationship to the door opening in relationship to the opposing feet that you have to travel to the accessible

seating area. >> okay. let me provide a little bit of context. there is three doors on each side of the train. i'm going to respond to your question as if i'm boarding one of the end doors which is an area that has both priority seats for people with disabilities as well as a wheelchair zone. now battery trains -- bart trains do open from both sides. it's almost like i need to do 2 cases. if it opens from the bottom of that drawing, the left side of the car, as you board, you would have a double side ways facing green on the left and that would be for seniors and people with disabilities. a little bit to the right is a tripod pole right in the middle of that area but

offset a little bit off center to open up a wider aisle. sort of diagonally to your left about 45 degrees will be the wheelchair designated area. to your right as you end would be two blue side facing seats that would be general seating. then about 45 degrees to your right as you enter are more of the green priority seats. so that gives you a general sort of 360 sense. we are thinking about ways to better community with people with vision impairment and blind folks, this diagram. i have recently as today been in touch with the lighthouse for the blind and talked with them about possibly doing an tactile

version of it. >> okay. i think that would be helpful, thank you. >> to the chair, thank you cochair. my question is a little unrelated. are there any emergency protocols for evacuation on this new train car design that is different from the previous design? have you thought about how you will evacuate folks and what the pole is going to do and how the aisles are going to work and with the other doors, with the previous door technology there were certain things you had to do to open the doors. how is that going to work now? >> i think i can give you a partial answer. you are asking something that is beyond my knowledge base. i can point out a few features. we will

have emergency door releases that could be used in some evacuation scenarios. those would be at each door at an accessible height. they will operate slightly differently than the old ones. so there is a need for education when the new cars are put into the system. i think most bart evacuations from what i'm told are through side doors. and we would have more doors. so it should help with evacuation. i know one of the features of the new train cars involves a train operator being able to have better communications with can ustomers in an evacuation scenario and one of those improvements is that they will get a head set that will let them be mobile and

communicate while they are out of the cab. >> moving on to agenda item 7. we have information item. feedback from disability and senior organizations on the bart new car design. we are going to start with lisa maria martinez with the lighthouse for the blind and visually impaired san francisco. following these speakers we'll go to public comment and if you would like to make a public comment, if you would fill out a card at this time. >> hi, brian bashin of lighthouse is unable to make it today. he prepared some notes for me to present today. my name is lisa maria martinez and the coordinator at the

lighthouse. let me move along to what brian has to say here. he writes "even though we were were told that you new bart cars which will start arriving in 2017 will have automated announcements there has been no testing of the speaker system and it wasn't included in the mock up. the mock up had really great visual graphics, but if you are blind these are meaningless compared with the current public address systems now on the cars. and just in asserting something here, i heard earlier in the presentation that by mr. wine stein that the automated announcements will be prerecorded but he also mentioned that there will be information displayed on these screens that passengers want to know and i'm very concerned if they are not prerecorded, i as a blind

person and all the other blind and low vision passengers who ride bart will not have access to this important information that all bart passengers want to know. also i heard earlier about this" clear the path "tam pain, -- campaign, the prerecorded message that the train operator can push when they see someone with a disability on the platform" , personally i find this offensive that a train operator knows what a disabled person looks like since many disabilities are invisible but might require the need for the seats nearest the door. and i don't understand why those cannot be automated. going back to brian's notes here. though bart is proud of it's supposed attention to our

community, even a cursory look to the cars shows there is oversight. there is no label anywhere on the cars. sometimes blind people might want to phone or text a friend to meet in car no. 4. we need those labels. bart professionals haven't thought of that. i have to say personally here in insertion i find the current labels rather useful. a minor point, the bike spaces now are long enough for a tandem bike, but the new ones are not long enough to take a tandem bike and this will exclude those of us who ride tandem bikes with sighted pilots to take a bike without blocking the entry way for people who need greater

access. when bart needs to put in an electric outlet, lay some water pipes, it will consult with professionals to get this done. but either inside or outside of the organization. somehow, though, when it comes to the needs of the disability community, bart drops this professionalism. if there is any input at all, it is bart seeks it from folks who probably have a lot of experience riding battery and -- bart and give a lot of feedback but some of the accessibility designs going on in the new fleet of the future, really need the attention of the individuals, architects who know about accessibility and design, orientation and mobility specialist. we heard earlier that there were multiple phases prior to this final train phase that has gone on

for the last few years that have to do with design. whenever were the professionals that know a thing or two about disabilities and access. bart despite being a huge agency apparently does not have an ada coordinator almost like every large government agency in the bay area. why? many of the accessibility problems with the new fleet of the future could have been prevented with proper professional consultation with experts in the field flt an ada coordinator could have been the catalyst to make this happen. nearly all of the positive disability attributes of bart that are currently implemented have been done so under protest at the end of a court order. bart could change the current paradigm by doing right by the blind the first time by talking with us and

safe taxpayers millions in unnecessary payments to a stable of bart contract lawyers. those are his notes. that's all i have to say. thank you. >> thank you. >> next, we have jessie lorenz executive director, senior disability action san francisco. >> all right. thank you council and thank you mr. wine stein for the wonderful presentation. my name is jessie lorenz and i'm the executive director of the independent resource living san francisco. i'm here to talk about an issue about but of the critical avenues of the issues of our center and also for the california foundation for independent living centers. a statewide organization that is comprised of independent living centers from all around the state of california. we have some issues with the current bart car design and that's why we are here today. i want to

premise my comments by saying bart's got a problem in this community. i'm hoping when all is said and done, we can get to a place where we are all talking to each other an listening to each other with more clarity and more insight and more respect. the disability community is broad, vast and the movement of folks with disabilities who sought independent disability rights started here in berkeley. i think one of the things that is not being stated clearly is process. just on a personal note, several of us, myself included was part of the bart tours that took place at mcarthur station and one of the key flaws in the process, when i toured that car, i was

told by the friendly guy who helped me fill out the is survey was that i can sit in the back of the car. when i was told that segregation was a thing of the past, he said i would get used to it. that's a problem for me because civil rights and equal opportunity and inclusion are not about segregation, but it's an even bigger problem for bart because if bart is not getting that that's an issue, -- i didn't say that. michael did. " so let me talk to you about some of the components of concern. they can be summed p -- up in four issues. first we talked about the y shaped pole. it causes access concern for folks who use mobility

devices for folks who are blind. our proposal is that bart move the center pole out to the side so instead of putting one central pole in the middle, you take four poles and attach them to the sides of the seats. this is in line with the department of transportation regulation that advises transportation agency to be very careful about where they place hand holds and the department of transportation advises that they do not put hand holds in places that are going to impede the paths of travels for folks with disabilities. this is going to have an impact on our community and we are really pushing for bart to make changes in this area. it's my understanding that advocates like will tuks on the committee for disabilities and janet aidel son, they have

come out publically saying they have advised bart about removing the pole. i'm hoping that all of this public feedback and all of these discussions that we are having here is not just about saving face, but that there is time to make some changes . this is a system that many of us depend on and a system that transit riders is growing nationwide and people who have depended on transit has grown to 40 percent. there is not less of us coming on to these cars, there is more of us coming onto these cars. these barriers are abhorrent to address. it's evident to me that bart has not worked with the blind community to ensure proper access. one of my colleagues stated which i think is important, you can't just pull somebody to have

street and say that they know about accessibility. universal is a concept design from the ground up and decisions are made on features that can be usable and most helpful to the highest amount of people. it's also interesting to me, i thought the slide about how bart has included features for the deaf community is really interesting. however, we have a lot of folks that are very involved in the deaf community in our community center and i'm really curious to know just how closely bart has reached out to work with that community as opposed to make decisions about what is best for the community without working with them hand in hand. the next thing is because i learned from the article, it appears that bart does not have an ada coordinator. that will give

bart a lot more credibility in this community. an ada coordinator could have given advice about universal design. if there was a staff that this community trusted, we might not be in a place that we are on now. am i still good on time? because i'm keep going. >> you have two more minutes. >> okay. i think it's important for me to go back to process. we are a very large diverse and vibrant community and when mr. wine stein talks about doing all of these sessions with community input, i think it was notable that there were no questions on the is survey about disability. several people i know went to the different presentations at the different car showings and when they asked about what do we say about accessibility on these is surveys, they were told, that pole, only a

couple people don't like that pole. you know what, keeping a pole in the middle of aboarding area is going to reduce access to a significant amount of people. as far as i'm concerned, those are people who can't always access other means of transportation. that's reason enough to take another legitimate second look. i'm really really saying all of my comments with the spirit and hopes of making things better. lawsuits are yucky. my own board of directors has given me permission to file a complaint with the transit office of civil rights because my concern without these changes being implemented our community is going to be impacted in a negative way. i'm really pleased with what i saw in aaron's presentation and at the same time we are not there yet. thank you. >> thank you. next. we have

jessica leman executive from senior disability action and then we'll proceed to public comment. thank you so much for having me. i'm going to be joined by my coworker. so i want to start by saying that senior and disability action is an organization for seniors and people with disability. a couple of times and not just today but in this on going debate it's been discussed concerns seniors have had and how that may result in problems with accessibility. i just wanted to start with our very strong conviction that these communities are united and we can come up with a solution that meets the needs of those groups. a few of our concerns, we want to echo a lot of the concerns. lisa

marie and jessie have talked about. to start with the wheelchair space is too small. we need to allow for wheelchair and mobility devices. one of the things that hasn't come up is currently a lot of the wheelchair spaces are facing next to a rear facing seat which personally as a wheelchair user a love. i don't have to worry about somebody not realizing that my feet are sticking out and falling on top of me, any of those kinds of things. it looks like all of the new configurations are next to a seat where people are getting up and sitting down again right next to a person on a wheelchair. that could be an easy change and i would urge bart to consider having chairs next to rear facing seats. one of month of -- my other

concerns is having the mobility devices to travel together. if somebody in a bike gets on and there is no rack there, there is no other space, of course they are going to take the wheelchair spot. we would like to think they would move when someone with a wheelchair gets on but it doesn't happen. everyone on bart is on their smartphone and they don't notice who is on the train. i'm guilty of that myself. that's why i like to get my spot so i don't have to worry about it. someone with a bike they don't know that someone with a wheelchair gets on. someone can say, can i take that spot. some people are not able to communicate that. last saturday i was coming back from soccer practice with my teammates. there were three of us. it was perfect. it was a saturday afternoon, coming from hayward, it wasn't and issue. we are talking about a

configuration that even at non-commute times you can't have three people in a wheelchair space together. that's a problem. i'm talking too long. the center pole is in the way. i don't need to say a lot more than that. we agree to attaching it to the sides for our blind people and moving it four inches 4 inches is not a solution. it's 4 inches. i'm not saying more about that. one concern that i don't believe i heard come up today is i have heard other disability advocates rays a concern about the gap between the train car and the platform being wider because of the new door structure. we would like folks to look at that to make sure that's not going to be an issue with wheels or tip of a cane or other things getting lost or trapped in that very easily. again, i was at break

telling a story of recently using at metro at washington d.c. and i don't know how to distances compare. i haven't looked at it that closely but we know from experience this is a real issue that must be looked at. so at the end of my comments then i will turn it over. we are really glad that the american disabilities council is looking that the issue. we really urge you to speak out demand that these problems get fixed before we move forward. thank you. >> i just want to highlight a few things. first of all i don't really see a need for a center pole. with plenty of having seats to ceiling poles, no matter what height, not everybody is my height, but with those poles they work fine and it's causing another congestion point in the middle of the entrance. no matter where you are going to move that pole. you are going to

cause another concession point which is more fixeded and this movable. with bicycles, there is a lot of us bicyclist. due to our size or needs do not have standard size bicycles. for instance, i have what they call ex-er cycle with a huge rack in the back. it's definitely going into doorway. since we bicyclist, i say we because that's what i use all the time. we have the right to be any place in the car. so i feel the middle part should be also accessible for wheelchair users. so the question is can a wheelchair user use the designated bike place if nobody is using it? why couldn't we have a designated wheelchair part nft new train

cars middle and why do we have only two sections. being a bicyclist i use those sites when no wheelchair uses them. we should have them in all sections of the car. i think that's about it. okay. thank you. >> thank you. with that, we will start with public comment on agenda item 6/7. we are going to start with randall glok, the chair of the bart accessibility task force. we will be limiting comments to 2 minutes. thank you. >> good afternoon. i am randall. i am the chair of the bart accessibility task force. the task force that meets the fourth thursday of every month in oakland. all of our meetings have been there for a long time. i was asked a

question during the break, what's my opinion of how staff has worked with us and have we had a good dialogue. the answer today, we are four staff, the chair, the vice-chair and the members of the committee all here. i personally went out to all 12 fleet of the future tour dates. i have listened to the community and heard arguments for the pole -- and against the pole. we'll have is survey results. i have been out there listening to a lot of them and as a chair i have been beat up quite a lot. it's what happens as a chair. i hear people laughing, but we are here and we are here and i do believe that staff is listening. one of the things that hasn't been said and i want to bring up because this is a live meetings. people that want to

e-mail comments. it's fof design at bart .gov. fleet of the future design. fof design @ bart .gov. send in the feedback comments. it's pretty much all i have to say. i have been listening. we are going to have our meeting next thursday. aaron will be at our meeting. we'll have more discussion on this. as a chair, i believe we've done a lot of due diligence in it. that's all i can say. thank you. >> thank you. next we have bonnie, my apology for your last name. >> hi. thank you, my name is bonnie luke wits. thank you for this opportunity. i don't want to repeat what has already been said. i agree

with most of it. i too find it difficult to part with this initial launch where we went out and looked at the car and filled out the is survey and said this pole has got to go. her feedback which i thought she was supposed to be a neutral person said, don't you think you will get used to it. i thought about that. i know i don't like change at this point in my life and would i get used to it? the answer is no. it may work in an empty car, but that reality is never a reality. i think when we talk about a car of the future, what has been overlooked is that chairs are growing in size as people are growing in size and the dimensions that bart used, they use the minimums. there is nothing to say in the regulations that you can't go above and beyond the minimum. so i want to encourage that in