in their neighborhood because the services are not there so those are some of the things i know and the other thing is i certainly sympathy emphasize i was a smoker and can understand the difficulties of quieting smoking, however, the e cigarette might be that a mechanism one might stop smoking but you can buy e cigarettes along 4 other places and don't need the lounge to use this as a method to stop smoking i'm not sure their heating something up it's more than vapor but odd vapor a type of smoke so it could be incarnate incarnate

begins i feel bad for the young come up that invested their money but it's too bad it is probably not a real good choice on a block that has bad things like 9 massage polarized and the mcd and lots of liquor stores and restaurants you, you wouldn't want to go into it's not appealing it's too bad it hadn't improved maybe it will in the future. >> commissioner hillis. >> i have a couple of questions for staff so we had a list of other vapor shops there's 25 in the city i haven't seen a mcd.

>> there's the first condominium conversion for a paraphernalia i can't city attorney speak for the department where it is i know i have other requests following this one i think in 2012 i believe 2008 the board of supervisors passes an ordinance that requests the cu and in 2010 there was a small amendment to that so i don't know why this is the first. >> yeah, because many of new i live close but there was no cu process for that and we can give you more information first hand i don't know about the specific locations.

>> maybe city attorney can help us. >> deputy city attorney. >> i see your hand i don't know if i know the answer. >> there's answers. >> deputy city attorney marilyn burns it's my understanding that although the board of supervisors did pass a law in 2008, to regulate the paraphernalia shops that wasn't until this year that the board of supervisors passed an additional ordinance that defined the sale of e cigarettes as tobacco paraphernalia and to treat them the same thing that's why you're seeing this the use for the first time. >> when. >> i believe march of this year. >> and then does that lounge add to that would that stand alone require a cu. >> the zoning administrator

when we reviewed the process he said those are the tobacco product 10 percent of the occupied floor area to be used to distribute the tobacco paraphernalia type of items would quality as a tobacco paraphernalia established and therefore, require a cu authorizations. >> so the stone would require one even on the board has defined that's also in the definition. >> in the definition. >> the zoning administrator determined that. >> is that in the 2008 definition or the more right he e cigarette. >> the e cigarette. >> but the difference is you can even though their both defined as tobacco you can't smoke any cigarette inside but

the hock can. >> per my information from the department of public health it's not tobacco but a steam that's a glycerine soaked coal that releases the steam it is lout and not regulated by itself e cigarette payroll the e cigarettes through articular 19 has started to be regulated like tobacco by the hock came from the department of public health is not regulated in the dismay. >> but you can smoke 2 inside that's confusing (laughter). >> >> okay to clarify it seems like if it's considered tobacco for reasons of smoking

it you shouldn't be able to smoke it inside. >> let me grab my definitions i don't have it right here. >> so we need a glossary shrubs i know macro smoking this. >> tobacco paraphernalia it paraphernalia's devices that are dined for the smoking digesting and inhaling or introducing it into the body for tobacco or controlled substances as subscribed ♪ the california health and safety code it didn't include matches or devices to preserve tobacco cigarette or cigarette papers or cigars or any other preparation of tobacco that is bye existing law they're not considered paraphernalia and that's clear >> so what's our understanding

what happens here you know the upstairs is kind of selling the cigarettes and the liquid that goes into that p them and downstairs is where you can smoke. >> it's been presented the upstairs is a retail sales area and the downstairs is a muck can lounge so that is what has been present by itself applicant. >> okay and there's no elevator in the plan how do people get down is that okay; right from a code standpoint. >> you mean by beginning they've had a designer plan they've been evaluating some of that beef not been reviewed by the department of building inspection. >> in the operation his or her

are from midnight that's the ground floor level all right. >> yeah. >> can i ask the project sponsor a question? are. >> yes. commissioner again that same question what will happen people will come in the top floor a retail there's somewhat different different operations kind of what's going on in the basement. >> correct. >> okay. and is there an elevator to get downstairs. >> no slate a set of stairs. >> and that's okay under the code. >> the capacity under 49 so it doesn't require two exits and stairs necessarily we have a

space between two buildings we've pay for the ada access to the hock can lounge in the basement. >> okay. a slope going on outside to get into the this. >> yes. >> the hours until midnight is that when our intending to be operating everyday until midnight. >> yes. the 12:00 a.m. is for the hock can lounge nobody buys sects after 10 o'clock so i'm asking for 12 o'clock. >> okay. all right. and i noticed there's nothing really negative i don't think i'm here to opine on whether or

not they're good or bad for you their cigarettes but sugary beverages and gum is bad for you i think it's odd the two things operating together they seem separate but i don't have have a huge problem with it the hours are odd for retail but retail means it is only the hock can lounge open until midnight there are there other you showed us other retailers stone what-do-you-call-it again. >> steam hock can see. >> i'm sounding like my father now (laughter) are there other ounces or ones. >> 10 hock can allegiances in the city. >> steam hock can see. >> only the 3 are steam and the

other ones are grandfathered so they do tobacco inside a building we'll not be doing that. >> where wish the other steam stone hock can lounges the hate street called carry night that's one the places. >> okay. thank you commissioner richards. >> i have the benefit of coming out and visiting mr. hate at the site and walked around ocean avenue it is interesting it's i'm all about consensual lifestyle choices there's an alternative lifestyle choices and massage parlors and ms.

harris letter on the westwood park talked about a billion dollars in pent-up demand for serving grocery stores and, etc., etc. there's a hardware store going in 3 blocks away and saw a target and fog lifter coffee and whole foods when i took the stormwater i know my concern which i look at necessarily and desirable depending upon whether you're a smoker and want to get off cigarettes comparable is context all but conceptual in that block so if you are opening up to a hardware store i took the streetcar towards balboa station i think you're a good guy a good neighborhood guy and have a good

character and eliminates the backyard sampling and raised the age to 21 and not about 1340ek or vapors it's about this block city manager a problem i know to the residents of either side of ocean avenue that got up and smoke when is the last time you were on ocean how much you're down there you need to get yourselves down there and spend money i'm stuck on the block i have a problem where it's at see what the other commissioners think. >> commissioner antonini. >> because this is tobacco paraphernalia one will assume that will allow the sale of papers and pipes and tobacco so we'll have to let him have the

ability to do that i'm asking staff you're going to say you're not going to do it about whether or not it is allowed under our package it is like a head shop basically. >> it is it wasn't presented in their business plan but, yeah it is. >> since the entitlement goes with the property they run out of business the next guy could sell all the other things that's a concern it seems odd this takes a conditional use and you know you can't smoke on site he at least the e cigarettes but if you had an mcd any time by the approve the smoking of marijuana and that's only a dr just pointing out out ironic policies i'm inclined to be not supportive but we'll see, see

what the other commissioners say and commissioner johnson. >> so i'm really challenged have that project i hate doing that i almost want to see a continuance we'll see i'm not generally supportive i'll tell everyone why i'm confused and maybe talk to the staff the first one going back to commissioner richards comments on evaluating this is the necessary and desirable and comparable i'm not here to make judgements angle the alternative lifestyles i'm not a smoker but the lounge is a popular thing for the kids to side i'm going to place value judgment open a

activity but when i think about desirable i take away pig many talks about whether or not selling tobacco paraphernalia is good or bad and the busiest one the things that i actually like about our project in its original form is that again taking away the health and other things the backyard piece along with the hick can lounge will bring visibility to the block that the other businesses don't and there's not a lot of violent into the store front you'll are backyard and people in and out and the hock can lounge downtown so people recreationing so i like that when you decided to

omit the backyard area as a place of part of our business plan and activity for your business that is where my vision became cloudy over this particular use because your hock could a lounge which is where to me if you talk about desirable and comparable the only thing brings out will it grow other neighborhoods serving retail on ocean avenue that is in the basement i can't see who's in there if you don't have the backyard you have a retail store that serves a small sector of the population they're coming new jersey transit but not producing want foot traffic i want to see for the additional businesses so giving a positive recommendation for the project

so i guess i will ask two questions one for i guess the project sponsor and let's see if i have one for staff for the project sponsor can you talk about what sort of activities you see happening at the ground level retail only people coming in and buying they're equipment and leaving i mean talk about sort of the issue i mentioned about not having enough pedestrian traffic or seeing people in the storefront and people are coming and going. >> i have talked to done high outreach talked to everything

open the street we went across the block because it's dead and we don't provide food or drinks people come to our store they would go to the stores around the pizza place the chinese place and other places i think we'll bring a greater economic interest and diversity into the neighborhood by being there and providing what we're providing. >> i'd like to add one thing if there's not enough support for the concept we've been here a couple of hours maybe split the hock can expect up and take a vote and have the hock can upstairs and downstairs most of the negativity was for the retail we are open to whatever works i'm trying to open a viable

business for both concepts. >> okay. thank you i tilt don't have a question for staff i'll let the commission i'll say that on i'm definitely not a fan of people rekruger their finance plan in a meeting but with that said, your get a plan, which is how we evaluate but the cu is for a establishment of tobacco establishment you can sell the vapor out of the a backroom that's not a variable on our decision and commissioner moore two aspects about the project i find interesting the young man basically just taking a plunge into something that requires encourage and somehow going out and trying to get it

we had a spectacular case i know commissioner fong remembers on polk street and not particularly a good plain clothes where a young man despite no interest or support from the neighborhood wanted to open a muscle building shop we are shaking our heads and sure enough he's there two or three years later but he's apparently doing well, i see this as someone daring to do i'm interested to see him occupy this and figure out if it works i want to make one comment that's the hock can busineoka b

here comes the hook can pipe it is a social important part and while i'm not sure who is customers here are it has at least in the middle est a positive social overlay that is done by everybody wyoming some of my colleagues bought a hooka pipe their expensive and i see that the store in some recognition of cultural relevance takes them into their ground level floor and if nothing else delays the cultural of what they are and definitely not just to give it an attractive factor and it is a endorse we're looking at them as

a substitute marijuana pipe they're not having said that, i'm interested in giving this person a chance whether it works i don't know the approval will stay with the business but other ways to regulate the businesses that don't perform to the neighborhood standards that normally any neighborhood association uses to control others to be supportive that's the tax i'll take and i'm not going to do any gymnast on the e cigarette i personally don't like e cigarettes their whatever i'm not going to go there but i want to put in a plug for my strong support of the young entrepreneurs and small businesses and see what goes commissioner richards you're one quick question for ms.

>> so the project sponsor can do they've got a pocket business plan for a hooka lounge without the piece would you and our association be open to having that type of business. >> no as i said the balboa station plan many of us participate in 5 years of meetings and the whole transient concept was initiated by the balboa plan and the plan to succeed has to have good transient and high immensity housing we is that a "yesly need

you lived there 319 years it's a designation place we didn't pack a position whether or not hooka is good or bad. >> thank you i think just to commissioner johnsons point the way that ocean it is it is sloped towards the west so you can't see the backyard from the greener level and the only people that see the backyards is the neighbors looking into it. >> commissioner johnson. >> i'm going to let commissioner fong (laughter). >> i honestly don't feel a public threat by the vapor stores and not a health it's not necessarily good for you but i don't see that the second-hand

smoke escaping out of the space i find a public threat with long term it brings an element of doubt and despairs i said this area i know the city college i mean it's changed and said the neighborhood there's beautiful homes there i get is sense this group is not threatening they're good guys they're not going to go sideways you start with a business plan but it may evolve and he's willing to try it i don't know it will - this product is legal i'm in support of it and make a motion to approve. >> second commissioner johnson. >> thank you very much thank you commissioner fong you made my life easier i want to

get to as he heard the commissioner comments i'm in support of trying something it is inlikely that any will make that paraphernalia business work i'm not concerned that the cu goes with the property in this case, i want to ask for other commissions to look at are telling me there any particular changes to our motion percentage we want to make i for one point to be in support of the hours that the establishment is open may not not midnight by 10 and i wanted to see if increase other things that jumped out at people in terms of changes to our motion that jumped out but i wanted to add that one. >> thank you i i want to acknowledge that

this changed the motion to exclude the balboa park plan i agree there would be deeper analysis how we're meeting goals set out in an area plan having said that, we have little control over two proposes businesses in a community the community groups feel frustrated and it's property owners and the advocacy of property owners to get them to offer their storefronts to businesses you want to see in the neighborhood it is easier said than done not our business to regulate who the property owner leases to i'll be n in support of 10:00 p.m. and really if this passes encourage the business owner is continue

outreach to the neighborhood to continue to re-evaluate whether or not this is working or not we want to see a business that works but also not creating more challenges for the neighborhood. >> commissioner antonini. >> i'm going to speak against the motion is quality of life necessary and desirable well it's not harmful that's the standard of discretionary review there's nothing extraordinary and if a dr i could be supportive but this rise to a higher standard we have signatures of hundreds of neighbors that are in opposition and when the neighborhoods didn't have a starbuck's we supported them and commissioner richards i'll be on the losing side but i ask the winning side

increase the age to 21 and make sure there's no tasting outside of the doorway i talked to mr. blake we talked about having $0.88 out on the sidewalk. >> can i ask the city attorney to talk about the age restriction. >> deputy city attorney marilyn burns the sale of this paraphernalia it restricted to the 18 and older and so to restrict access to the business by an age limit this commission needs a rational basis and i'll recommend the commission make recommendations. >> commissioner moore i want to make one other suggestion that has somet