very, very long time, and if they would just changing out the fixtures, we would probably let it exist, but, the building owner told me today that he is pretty determined to get or to take these or this condition away. and it is, and as i said it is very unusual, and we have stairs right out of the door and you walk up three steps and you are into this area that is well over two feet above the main area, in the rest of the apartment. so, the plans if we were to accept them, will need more work done to them, i think that commissioner fung said that as well, we don't have a scope of work and we don't have the architect and engineer stamp and so if we were doing a condition permit there needs to be more on sxhaoer they are good enough for the discussion and they do accurately describe what is the intended scope of work. it is unfortunate that they got a kitchen and a bathroom

remodel permit, but then, as i, and i think that i have, pretty much said that to these permit applicants as well a few times that this type of work does need plans and proper drawings. so. i am available for any questions and i am not sure if there are any. >> i have one. >> what makes, so there are existing stairs and i think that i watched the video and what makes it so dangerous just to leave it be, since it has been there so long? >> there is a few things, and there is something else that i noticed today. if you, if you go in through a door and automatically you are heading in the steps in front of you, the head room would be an issue and you are supposed to have 80 inches in head room and so you don't have that. the stairs of the door and if you are coming down a set of stairs and there is no landing at the bottom of the stairs that is not an ideal scenario, and you would like to come down on to the level landing at least three feet wide.

and so, steps to the bathroom, and you know, we talked about last week, and maybe a wet floor, and stuff like that. but, as the tenant, in the other, and poibted out to me that there is nothing in the building code that prohibits you from having the stairs in a bathroom, which is right, but it is just that no one will design it like that, it is just not something that you will see today in any way and our accessibility laws to would not allow it in the building any way and in answer for your question, it just, it does not look right, and it is a really bad design and it is more of a selling point for the apartment than it is anything, but, it is existing, and it looks like it has been there forever and the building code, and i don't think that we could go into every building and say take this out, but i can see why they want to do it and, i hope that they make it, and it is difficult in the existing buildings and you know we see a lot of things that are not 100 percent right. >> the thing that i am struggling with is that it

really impacts the other units. and i think that you said a little bit, but i think that it is a lot a bit, right? because the place is not that big. >> no it is not that big, you are right and they are going to have it figure out somewhere else to put the bed in a studio apartment, a small studio apartment, i am sorry if i said a little bit, it does impact it, yes. >> and i guess for me, and maybe i am just thinking out loud here, if you were telling me it was a real safety issue verses a you would not do it this way today, issue, that makes a difference to me, because it impacts the other unit so much. >> i know, yes. and sorry i can't tell you on that, all that i can tell you that it will not be code in any way shape or form today, not even close, in a lot of ways, you saw the correction, and you notice that they got from the building inspector and i am just not so sure in our code that we can make them do it, that is why i am trying to say

and if you have an existing condition, and that building got built in 1910, after the earthquake, and i have never seen it before and i don't think that it would have been code even at that time and just because i have never really seen it done before. and it is not something that i don't think that they did it in 20 or 30 years and it looks like these metal like sheet metal, and boxes for these little areas where somebody felt this out and then, in the unit number 9, and it is kind of camouflage that you just like a dresser and you pull out the drawers and here comes this bed out of the wall, unless there is something that could be done in the studio to create a murphy bed, scenario where the bed could tilt up, you know? and but, it and i am not sure if that could be done or not and obviously, then, it is really again, just like the last case, and there is a landlord and a tenant involved

in this and there is no, and it seems to be a break down in well, what are you going to do to compensate me for this. because the tenant did tell me that it was one of the reasons this she rented was the funkiness of this condition. you know, you just don't see it. and so that is more to do with that. but i can see both sides. you know, from my perspective any way. but it does not make it easy for you, sorry. >> i think that there is another condition there, is that the risers, of the steps are quite high. >> okay. >> yeah, they would not be code today, definitely not. the code is 7 and 11. >> and it would look like ten? >> yeah, they are pretty high. i dw not measure them, they are definitely higher than would be allowed if you were to build a stair today. not. >> and i think that the appellant brief indicated that they were 9 plus inches. >> yeah. >> right. >> and but, even in the, or with these type of conditions

today, even though, it is just and you would not see it because of the accessibility laws today, ada would not allow it and it just would be a no developer would do this. i mean >> even in the old days. >> yeah, probably. >> the combination that was always a rule of thumb between the combination of the riser, plus the tread. and you know, in terms of inches is equivalent to 17 or 18, in this exceeds it by a lot. >> yeah, and that is right. 8, 9, that is right. >> okay. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> okay, is there any public comment? >> and i just add one more thing? >> on the fire department review issue, the fire department when they got a kitchen and a bathroom permit they don't do the inspections and i don't think that they would worry too much about this, and the only thing that they will look at is the fire railing between the two units and the building department and the building inspector can look

at that and so they would probably look at it and not worry about it, and i just thought that i would mention that. >> mr. duffy just to point out all of the avenues, this would require a revision permit. >> a revision permit, this is correct. >> and these and the permit and the revision merit, it definitely needs another permit under the apermit that you have appeal and they could not do it under the permit that they have unless you do a condition permit. >> is there a public comment? >> hello, high name is alex. and do i understand that this issue seems that this

construction, impacts stacy and i was under the impression in san francisco, that, the property owner has to have a just cause to do that. and i understand that, you know, and you have to do this construction or in order to meet the new building code. but, from what i can tell from the current drawings is that there is other alternative to do that. and in particular, the drawing, and that currently shows the riser height, is actually exaggerating it a bit, and it seems that you can lower it down an inch and i don't know i have a bunch of papers here. and okay, so the current riser height is 9 and a half, actually. it seems like you only need, where is that? >> 7 and a half inches and so it seems like you could just

lower it down by an inch and avoid the whole situation. and i understand that this is not, and maybe this is not the best form that you decide, to impact to the tenant, but if it is not here, i don't think that stacey has any recourse anywhere else because if you grant the permit she can only go to the rent board and by this time it is too late and so, you know, i know that there is a lot of details about permits and what is going on, there is no discussion about the alternatives. that is all that we have to say about that. >> >> and i don't believe that there is any public to be had and i don't think that anyone from the public is here. >> i don't think that i need to ask that if the permit holder would have had any comments on the and we probably need to

have a look at it as well and a straight forward question and if there is anything in that document that you would feel compelled to be respond to. >> i was paying attention to the speakers and i didn't have a chance. it is pretty lengthy and so i didn't have a chance to read it yet. sorry, i wanted to hear in case there was a... rebuttal that i had to make, and so i didn't have a chance to read this again. >> and we will not accept it and if you want to give it back to her, or just leave it there? >> yeah. >> okay. >> and commissioners unless you have other questions for the parties the matter is submitted. >> the question before us is

whether the that the permit that was issued if it is at fault or if there is any error in it. and the property owner has indicated his desire and the appellant has indicated her desire, before us, is the permit that was issued and i have not been able to find anything that indicates the permit was issued >> you are not confusing it with the discretion. >> no. whether there is anything that we can find that is against the permit is the question. >> okay. >> that is what we are here for is just, and i agree, and there

are other circumstances that are involved, but our job is really to look at the permit, and the lack of a bed, to be stored under a bathroom unfortunately is not for us to hear and i don't know if i would want my bed under someone's toilet and shower. but as inspector duffy mentioned there is going to be loss of usage here besides the square footage. and you know, murphy bed would probably be a very good alternative to gain someof that space back and you know, and unfortunately once we make the decision it goes to a different form. right? >> and but, the permit itself, i don't see fault at it. and i mean whether the permit, is being pulled for safety, or for financial reasons, it still, the permit itself is what the question is here. well, i agree with that framework.

but i am a little unclear the permit you talked about a revised permit, and because of the permit currently does not have adequate plans, correct? and so don't we want to address that aspect of it? >> you have, and as the inspector mentioned, you can require that a conditioned permit be procured, and make our decision contingent about that. >> and a conditioned permit will be one where the permit holder would submit to the building department and get their blessing and would then be attended to our decision to, and that permit said then would become the official set. >> typically in that type of a decision, there is some

parameters given by the board so that when the permit comes to our office, we know how to evaluate it for compliance. and so if the board wishes to do that, that would be helpful to me to just have a clear picture of what it is that we are looking to see in this or in the revisions. >> are we, cap able of enabling you to consult with dbi for the comfort level of what is being submitted? let me rephrase that. >> and i think that the main challenge is just to make sure that the scope of work is well articulated and so i know that what has been proposed in the current scope of work, deals with the bathroom and the kitchen and there is nothing discussed about the kitchen and the plans for the kitchen and so that is one question that i would have as far as the bathroom goes, that is clear by the existing plans and what inspector duffy has said and i ask you to let me know if i am incorrect is that really what needs to happen for those plans

is that there is just some tightening up that needs to be done, and some, you know, architect stamp and some additional specifications. and but that is the concept, i think is pretty clear from the plans already. submitted. >> commissioners just on the plans, we would like a title bar, and a stamp, and a scope of work, describing what they are doing. and you know, taking and removing the floor, and the rear floor in the bathroom and the rest of the plans are not bad and we would like a fall, and probably a floor plan of the unit and the complete unit, and then the kitchen issue is something sorry i did not speak to that. i saw that today as well. but i was told by the property owners that they are not intending and doing anything in the kitchen area, that would effect any other unit. there is a part of i guess that it is the same condition, and not as much in the kitchen area

coming from unit eleven, but they have, and they have said that they are not interfere withing that at all. and they are going to, and because your base cabinets you neither going to lose a couple of base cabinets in the kitchen and they are giving that up and they are just going to box around it and so they are not going to and they are willing to, do without that if you can understand that. >> sorry, what is the condition between the unit eleven and the proposed unit for the work? >> it is similar and there is one of those, things that are coming into the, and it comes through the wall and comes in to the unit ten at that area. but i asked about that and they said that they were not going to charge that and they had spoken to the cabinet people and they said that they were just going to be as if, and it is a false front on it and there is nothing in that stairs that is, and because that is not as critical as i suppose as a bathroom as the way that it was explained to me. >> i don't understand why the unit eleven was there and i didn't know there was a

condition for the unit eleven or ten. >> me either, there is no work that would effect unit eleven. >> yes, that is what they said, and it is not as big of an impact i think, but the plans getting back to the plans we need a proper description of the work that needs to be done and some more tightening up of the plans that we have and i would be willing to do that, and that is fine. >> but, whatever the board decides. and i am happy to help out. and have, dbi plan check and maybe one of their managers look at this and see if i can get some input with the permit holder as to what, you know, what i can get the dbi plan check to see this every day. and on what we have a checklist that i know what needs to be on the plans before they are submitted. >> so, but i think that we no what we want. >> we want to make sure that miss goldstein is comfortable signing off. >> it usually works well and typically when i see the plans that are approved by the

condition permit, they are actually, you know, we have standards and the board has standards and dbi has standards and those are usually met. and so, okay. >> okay. >> so perhaps, if that is the will of the board, i would just work more closely than normal with inspector duffy before the board approves the plans before it meets the requirements that he just articulated and with respect to the kitchen, you may want to include, or consider including in your motion, something to the effect that it would have and that this permit will have no impact on unit number eleven and that will address the kitchen issue. >> actually, if i could speak to the permit holder for a second. >> would that be okay? >> so regarding the kitchen work, and so you guys have decided to just box around the insert? >> correct. >> and because i know that you mentioned that last time that you would have and there would be no work between that unit and the adjacent. >> yeah. right, the appellant will not be affected in any way, the

appellant is not losing their storage space. >> okay, and then the other question that i have is i understand that you have done this to two other units prior and they were larger and actually there are other forces at work here. have you looked into a murphy bed set up and that person could still have a living room and a bedroom. >> we did offer that up. >> yeah. >> and that was rejected. >> okay. >> and at least you tried. >> we are probably going to wish you luck on the next venue. >> thank you. >> i want to ask a quick question. and so i'm the board's lawyer. >> city attorney. >> someone mentioned just cause. >> it is more clearly a rent board issue, and that is the

idea of an eviction or a partial, eviction, and that is something that they will determine, and the board has made and exercised the sound discretion in deciding whether to revoke or grant a permit and it may consider the impact of the permit, on the neighboring property, and the evidence, and the residence thereof, and so if you have the discretion here and it is not a technical thing but the just cause falls within the parameters within the rent board. >> that was helpful, thank you. >> and i will take a stab at a motion then. and i am going to move to deny the appeal e >> thank you. >> you have to actually grant it if you are going to condition the permit. >> sorry to interrupt you, >> you are right. i would grant the appeal.

and condition the permit on the receipt, of an acceptable approval set of documents that would entail the full scope of work of the unit and including the kitchen. and to have our decision con tin intelligent on the issuance of the conditional permit accepted by the building department and our department. >> would it be easier to adopt this second set of plans with some wordage as to how they are supposed to be upgraded? is that does that make more sense? >> is there anything wrong with the second set of plans?

>> they don't meet mr. duffy. >> and there are no architect stamps. >> i was just thinking that if the board adopts this as sort of an outline, and then gives us some wordage as to what is needed, that might be easier for us to process at the board office. >> okay. >> only if this is acceptable, as an outline. >> as an outline. >> i will add and i will flush it out, then. >> my motion would be to grant the appeal and to condition the permit upon the revisions, excuse me, upon the revised set that was provided this evening, being upgraded for all of the permits, set requirements of dbi, and to include the scope of work for the kitchen.

>> okay. >> and mr. duffy? >> and... >> maybe, some language like to make dbi intake of requirements >> okay. >> yeah, yeah. >> you know, that is because you do have. >> you have a set process. >> yes, and there has to be certain things plan and the set that were taken and to meet the dbi intake requirements for a approved for a set of plans, or something like that. >> okay. >> okay. >> okay. >> and so, we then the motion is to grant the appeal up hold the permit on the condition first that the revised set provided tonight be included and then, that be upgraded to meet the dbi intake requirements and to include the scope of work for the kitchen.

>> okay. >> okay. the motion then is from commissioner fung to up hold this permit. and with again, that and the adoption of these revised plans submitted to us, dated november 6th, and that are to be upgraded to meet dbi intake requirements and amended to include, the scope of work for the kitchen. okay? >> on that motion, to up hold this permit, >> hold on one second. >> do you have a procedural question? >> i do. i was looking at the board's special instructions for parties. and it says here that in deciding a case the board may only up hold, over turn or place conditions on a departmental condition and cannot remanned or send back a decision. >> thank you, we heard that earlier. >> okay. >> apologize for bringing it up again. >> no problem. >> on that motion, to up hold

this permit with these revisions, and plans to be upgraded. >> president lazarus? >> aye. >> commissioner honda. >> aye. >> commissioner wilson in >> aye. >> and thank you, the vote is 4-0, and the permit is upheld with these revisions, thank you. >> president lazarus, there is no other business this evening, the meeting is adjourned.