olding into the process and spend more and more money out of a trust at this point there are hearings if they die they get nothing at this point it is going on for years they'll tried to do a settlement with ms. miller she's denied the settlement there is no money except for the sale of the property shows comment was there is not enough it seems like it is all about the money and pushing this through it is going on for 4 years so we're hoping you'll find it to approve the permit and not revoke it at this point and to continue it for a non-exist owner to allow the trust. >> i'm sorry your time is up. >> thank you.

>> thank you. next speaker, please. >> didn't go commissioners staff, my name is dave crow you've seen me a couple of the before i represent pamela the tenant and with i think the record is clear if you look at it that in fact, it is very clear that the ms. you were membership has attempted to deal with that procedure in fact at this time we're asking you to deny the permit and we're asking you to look at this look at ms. millers tenancy there's a human being living in a unit in back of this house and she ms. miller applied for the block book notice for the

permit the permit was issued in error as mr. sanchez told us and the permit was denied by the planning commission real issue that it the renter ordinance the permit be issued to move a dwelling unit ms. miller can be evicted if this revocation didn't faxing take effect it would be issued tomorrow and she could be evicted on a permit that was denied at the planning commission a permit that never got a chance to be heard because of the procedural thing we've been involved in i'm going to ask you to do the right thing and to deny the appeal tonight thank you. >> thank you. >> is there any additional

public comment seeing none we'll move into rebuttal. >> if you have anything else to say you have 2 minutes. >> the city is laid out the process for this kind of a permit we followed that 60 day notice specified amount of money given to the tenant for to relocation this is all spelled out we've gotten advise from the attorney about the process the process is written we've followed that so now you have someone that is following the process and someone else saying it is wrong

that will displace somebody somebody that is not really a person that is what the whole system is trying to project someone elderly not with the means to pay the rent or is handicapped i don't see where shows already been this much longer she would have been if the dbi notice was honored they went through the whole process and she with benefit everybody copes saying the permit was issued in error only because the procedural error that met all the criteria i respected through everyone to get it approved everybody submitted plans and fine give us the permit i don't know they say

it was issued in error it was issued properly except for the procedural error on the planning department that's all i dr. have to say. >> so your a the truest correct. >> is the cottage legal. >> they don't say that they say the cottage was built without benefit of the permit. >> so your permit to remove the cottage. >> only the kitchen. >> whoever buys the property will use this as a space they could live there whatever they want. >> is there current ais on the property. >> no. >> mr. sanchez. >> scott sanchez planning department following up on commissioner vice president honda's questions or comments we

don't have any records f that building is legal any permits to authorize that rear structure this permit seeks to remove the kitchen not abating any violation because again, no evidence of history no activity enforcement cases with the structure there doing their best to abate the illegal issue to sell the property but didn't necessarily clear all violations from the property it is a procedural error but a bit more than that had the proper process been fold they would have had a hearing at the commission and they did the permit shouldn't have been issued to say that was properly issued was incorrect it shouldn't have been issued we recommended the three the planning commission allow

approval of the permit but they reviewed the facts and at the hearing decided to granted dr and deny the permit to remove the illegal unit that's the decision we're seeking to support that it was issued in error because the proper notice was not done that give them the ability to have the real outcome reflected here we should have row revoked the permit last year but instead suspended it and tried to go through the simple process with the planning department maybe expect a different decision from the planning commission but the decision they made we'll abide by so if you have any questions, i'll be happy to answer them. >> so mr. sanchez understand how we got here

so if we uphold the denial of the permit than it goes back and what we're making the assumption it will be foiled for again and that lets make the summaries go their filing again in their wisdom or lack therefore denies the permit and the boil- we will assume at this point, i hate the words assume but based on the circumstances we'll assume the denial of that permit will be appealed and we're right back here again ; right? >> correct. >> so we're now in that situation if we were to honor that appeal that anticipated appeal what

would happen and that permit was changed and we approved the permit; right? >> uh-huh. >> what happens they would go through a 60 day they will notice the tenant and the tenant will have 60 days there's a legal process by which the tenant will be compensated improperly according to allowing law. >> gorth. >> yes. i'm an expert but the process and path if the permit as immunizing denied and appealed here there's 4 votes to overturn the appeal than the denial is over turned and the appeal is uphold and it starts the eviction process to complete the eviction process. >> and then so let's turn the

table and is that we agree with planning and planning we agree that no permit should be issued you'll have a house enencumbered by the tenant they'll preceded to sell the how is it is is a legal or let me unit. >> they could seek to legalize the unit. >> so then they can sell it enencumbered by itself legal unit. >> or seek legalization. >> from my point of view that's where we are whether we go with an let's resolve this today so we don't send it back to - for the inevitable to happen i'm

spewing u suggesting an illegal shortcut. >> commissioner, i see our analysis i would repetitive it a little bit differently in that the permit was before this board for a review weeks ago and the planning commission issued the dr before the commission before at this point in time and the commission voted by default to uphold the permit but essentially your arguing you could go the long way it's been before the commission and for the review commission by default disagreed with the planning commission at that point in time i'll reach the same conclusion. >> but tonight's proceedings is under a different standard so

tonight the board it charged with surveying whether the planning commission record. >> what motion will be raised i'm asking for dominions here please if we wanted to end this right here tonight what is the proper motion. >> under the what i just laid out so we don't see this a year from now one way or another. >> you'll need to request the rest indication in that the zoning administrator record. >> a quick question if the permit is denied forgot is there a timetable they

can't reapply. >> there's typically one year you can reapply within one year if the facts that led to the denial in this case we're seeking revocation we can foil the next day and in the initial permitting process in having a new application would also allows you to make the final determination on that building that is not legal and perhaps the more appropriate permit to remove not only the kitchen but united states structure that didn't appear to be legal that is probably a better case for them to pursue and this is my letter requesting the department of building inspection to row revoke the permit it is for the building inspection for the procedures and will have a hearing process i believe that

discussion can be appealed back to the board of appeals so there's that this is - it is the first step in the process but again, we feel this permit was not improperly issued and further did question about the legality of the structure in the rear yard. >> are you saying you think the permit is somewhat fladz. >> yes. for the reasons of the notice. >> but in terms of the issue the legality and yeah. we haven't seen this question was raised during the appeal hearings and commissioner vice president honda raised the issue we don't have evidence that structure was legally corrected we one way or another don't have evidence that was the case i think there was an extensive some permit that was conducted by the property owners to

determine what was legal and not not that i'm aware of. >> thank you commissioners the matter is submitted. >> from the very beginning i thought that the process was flawed i thought the permit was issued in error i agreed with the planning department also you know i'm troubled that you want to legalize it but only fix half of that as an issue in the structure is illegal and you want to legallize lists it the structure should come down so your splitting hairs as in the last one i'll support of revocation. >> since i don't have enough

votes you guys. >> i was on the losing he said the last two times how far how many votes are required. >> to deny the appeal. >> yeah. >> you'll need two votes arrest 3 votes to have the motion pass actually but 2 votes to have it stay in place by default. >> discussion? very complicated >> no, it hadn't i think initially it shove sent back the first time it is still flawed from the very beginning by accepting that the last time we just accepted a condition that was flawed in my opinion.

>> i guess clarify another point maybe to either one of you if we deny the appeal and uphold basically your request that it does go to the building inspection. >> correction this is a request to the director of the building inspection to revoke the permit it is up to dbi to then revoke the permit. >> they have discretion on that. >> yes. >> okay. and commissioner swig. >> he's shaking his head. >> step forward joe. >> i have a question after as well. >> just commissioners i sometimes dot revocation matters in my district i don't think we've ever disagreed with

planning if they excuse we do it i don't think our director is going to draw but definitely if dpw or planning whoever the health department asks us we always do it i don't know - >> i have a question for you mr. duffy the same question for the permit holder any outstanding permits on the property. >> i don't bring that with me i don't have it with me i took the details off the permit together. >> could you take a look. >> commissioners walk me through how to end this tonight. >> if we uphold the appeal.

>> you mean grant the appeal grant the appeal of the revocation request. >> so deny the revocation and uphold the permit. >> uphold the permit. >> ultimately now you've gotten me. >> uphold permit we're going to end up a year if now and the tenant is going to be offered an eviction notice go through the 60 day process and be compensated that is the way if we do that tonight or wherever it is unequivocal it will gorth

regardless i'm not denying the permit i'm agreeing with you commissioner vice president honda but you know i look at the if we already know this is probably going to happen a we're holding up an entire estate and putting a tenants invisible eviction i'm forecasting that it is going to happen anyway. >> i think i'm going to lose this vote too (laughter). >> that's where i. we're going to end up anyway to why not uphold you use the word i can't it's 715 i can't get the

words. >> would you like to make a motion. >> i remembered that the standard of error you don't have the permit a request are for a revocation. >> you have to state it the planning department record. >> mr. sanchez. >> other than the discretion. >> thank you scott sanchez planning department so at the previous hearing we didn't center a hearing on the merits that the tenant made we requested that the board deny the permit because of the fladz nature in that the item should have been disapproved if it comes back as disapproved you need 4 votes to overturn that had we had a hearing several months ago on the merits a clear will they were at least a super majority of board felt the permit was appropriate we could

have taken that as as indication how it would have held i appreciate the comments and what you're trying to get it i think i tried to get that at the previous hearing if the board feels this should be issued making a decision tonight will be the quickest way to get there. >> your agreeing with me awhile dangerously with me. >> yes. the planning department. >> did you summit that (laughter). >> having a hearing whether it's profile on the burden is on the appellants you get the four votes that's the concern we have getting to that point. >> that was my thoughts from the very beginning. >> do we need 4 votes or not. >> you need 4 votes to grant

the appeal. >> so my motion is to grant the. >> deny the - >> you're looking at to. >> you know what accident words. >> my sense to grant the appeal and overturn the revocation request you must state a basis to what error or discretion you want to identify on the part of zoning administrator. >> mr. sanchez. >> that was a joke. >> i was here last week my

motion to grant the appeal and to overturn the rest occasion request based on the error of the zoning administrator? >> or the discretion. >> right i think you should identify the error or the abuse of discretion. >> so you might say on the basis of the zoning administrator record because or abused his discretion because - >> commissioner swig in the disconnection i hear our going i can give you a suggestion of an error the error would be that a permit that has been upheld by the board should not be revoked. >> it was still upheld we

issued it by default we issued a decision to uphold the permit. >> no floor disagrees. >> yes. i have reservations i have reservations about that logic i think if the commission were to conclude that the permit was improperly issued that's was one thing but to conclude that the permit that the erred because of the default on the base it is a question - >> i don't know if i can make my motion i can't find of the error. >> i can make the opposite motion and take that vote is

that acceptable the way to go i move to deny the appeal and uphold the zoning administrator on the basis it was in discretionary error. >> i'll end it the someway. >> so, now we have a motion on the floor if the wanting to deny this appeal and uphold the zoning administrator, what say you? order on the basis in error or basis of discretion correct. >> yep. >> on that motion to uphold the zoning administrator, what say you? order commissioner fung is absent commissioner vice president honda commissioner wilson no commissioner swig. >> no. >> thank you. the vote is 2 to vote the motion fails so absent

another motion the zoning administrator, what say you? order would be upheld by default do we have another motion. >> i'm asking. >> we've got 4 zero so we'll see you in a year were there's not other motion and no other business before this committee this evening we're