at 2801 levenworth and they are still waiting to get the sign-offs for a couple of the permits and so they were given notice of the violation and then, did get temporary permits for the past weekend events and for the club malibu and for the weekend before, the multiple good neighbor policy violations and two violations of the conditions that we put on their permit, and a few months back. >> commissioner joseph? >> club malibu, so to the best of my memory we have been working on this for two years minimum, and no matter what happens they tend to violate, and so in what you are saying is okay, there is no security at the front door, and the door was opened, they were

unresponsive to their cell phone, did you go inside and talk to them? what did they say? >> the conversations we have are very brief. there is not a whole lot of direct communication when given instructions and we have questions, not a whole lot of answers. >> who did you talk to? >> i speak to nadia. and the manager, and i also interact with the dj/sound engineer from time-to-time. just seeing that i question occasionally is their ability to rectify the situation when they are approached and when i do show up they are able to bring the levels down and i think that it is a matter of them not, monitoring and managing that process. to the best of their ability. >> yeah, but the last i looked you were not their daddy and you can't hold their hand and

they have not been managing and they have been before this commission and they have been in the office and i made two or three visits out there, former commissioner hyde made visits out there and tried to work with the neighbors and tried to help them out. and keeping the door open is a blai tant violation, not having security and not responding to the cell phone is a violation and they keep doing that and so do you have any discussions on how we proceed? >> i don't yet. i am, i am anticipating very soon to know whether or not they will be paying this fine or appealing this citation and at that point, i think we should form a plan for the next steps. and i still have to hear back from them based on an e-mail with the citation that i sent and following this weekend to see if they are in receipt of the citation and what their plan is moving forward.

and regardless of whether or not they will appeal or pay the fine, i think that other than that, i am not sure at this point if the meeting is in order or or further reconditioning. >> were you there because there was a complaint by a neighbor? >> yes. >> okay, thank you. >> you say that there are more questions than answers, is it that they are asking you more questions than providing you answers? >> yeah along the lines of what do you want us to do? what should we do? i am not sure, what we can do. >> interesting. >> yeah. >> it sounds like at some point we may need to bring them in, but, let us know how they respond. >> i will. >> or if they respond, i guess. >> commissioners any questions? no. >> and does jar don have a report. >> yes. >> good evening, commissioners i was on vacation this past

weekend i don't have much to report. >> how was your vacation? >> it was great, it was great. another story. just one compliance issue that i dealt with and it was bruno's pizza and a complaint about them staying open past 2 a.m. and having entertainment and i talked to the owner and he said that they closed at 2:00 a.m. but it sounds to me like a soft close, but i told him i have talked to you and be aware that i am probably going to stop by and figuring out the entertainment i am going to let it cool off and pop in, and that was just about it and any questions, i will be happy to answer it. >> when you went there, were they still ringing up things at 2:00 >> actually i called them because i received a complaint and i immediately called them just to touch bases with them. >> i was going on vacation the day later, so i didn't get a chance to go by it.

>> okay. >> okay. >> all right. >> are there any other questions or anything from the commissioners i am going to open it up to the public comment, is there any public xhept on the director's report or the executive director's report? >> seeing none, the public comment is closed. we don't have any action to take on that and so we will move to the next item, which is permitting system -- oh, i think that director cain wants to talk about this. >> i am but just read the item because it is something that people are important and they understand the scope of the conversation what it is and what it isn't. >> sure. >> this is, permitting system for the street performance using amplified sound, we are not taking any action today, it is really more for discussion and for our informational purposes and so, there is going to be a presentation and a discussion of the possible options for creating a permit system to be administered by

the staff and the commissioner of the street performers with amp lified sound. >> i am talking about something that has been an issue since the beginning of this commission and i started as you know, in 2003, and we had meetings and hearings, and calls and complaints, and there has always been like 2 sides to san francisco, when it comes to the street performance. there is a side that loves street performers, that appreciates street performers that puts pictures in street performers on fisherman's wharf and in the newspaper covers and encourages this as a tourist attraction. and then there is the regulatory side which does not know what to do with street performers. and so, it was an issue that came to this commission early on because we began to do loud

speaker, or amplified sound permitting from the police department, beginning in 2004 and did never did receive any instruction around this issue. without going into too much detail i did give you stuff to read and i don't expect it to be read right now because it is too much and it is complicated but what you have in front of you is what looks like a resolution, but what was a resolution from 2006, and behind that, resolution, is the genisis which the first thing is a legislative report from the city's office of the legislative analyst, which looked at which problem in 05, and so in 2005, just ten years

ago, to look at how the other cities handle it and so there is a chart in the back to look at what they do in a vote of cities all over the country. and then you have a resolution that was put together at the time by supervisor magoldrik and because it was brought to the attention of the entertainment commission that the street program used to have street performers in it and it used to manage the street per per frmers, not only are we talking about how we will look at this issue and how do you manage this, but the question is who should manage it. not just but we are talking about and or that we issue the sound permits that it should be

us, and the thought about this and consider that, it used to be handled from the 70s up to, and i am not even sure when either the 80s or the 90s but it stopped, the arts commission, as a part of what was considered street artists. and at some point, then, the manager of the street artist program, who is still the manager of the street artist program, decided that they were no longer interested in including performers of that type and there is a letter, again in this package from this person, and then explaining some of that and you know, it does indicate their interest in working together, and so, but then you have is this resolution, that says, from the city and from the board of supervisors, it shall be the place the street art program shall be the place to put the street performance back, but it

never was passed. and i, that is why i, and i looked this up and i attached to the back of it, what indicates it was filed, which means that it never passed. and it went away. so, here we are again and i am not sure if that article, is there an article in your package? >> yeah. >> there was an article about a similar problem with amplified street performers in china town. so, even though it may not be the city streets, the rec and parks department is struggling as well in the square and one of the like, the positive parts of this struggle that is going on for years and years and years, is that as we looked at this issue, as we thought politically about this issue and as we tried to figure out what to do with it there was a huge crisis on it, and on the

crab sign and the police were dealing with and arrested a bunch of people around the crab sign. so like they would fight with each other and get into the fights and they confiscated some pa system and out of that, whole bru, ha ha was born this port of san francisco, street performer program and it is a huge success and it only covers the property that is under the jurisdiction of the port and so ultimately just that jefferson street area, i gave you a part of the guidelines, and and a map of the area. >> the 11 pages are just a part of it. >> yeah, it is complicated this is why this is our first conversation and it will not be our last conversation and it is not as simple as it sounds, but what you can see on page 8, is essentially like the area that

is covered, and then, they are like they are be the bush man and the silver guy who stands there still and they come in different kinds of it is complicated and it is okay, but in the end of the day, when we decide if we decide, where the

right agency to manage this, and understand that, and we are talking about the rest of the city and we are talking about a system that requires who gets to be in what space for how much time and how do you manage that with the resources that we have and so while i am every practically during the season between may and december, somebody comes in to our office at least every other day saying that they want a permit to do a street performance and we all have to tell them the line that we have told them for years, i wish that we could do something for you, the amplified sound permit is extraordinary expensive, and it is not annual permit, most of the time, it is for a certain period of time. and it is not, and can't go in any way for a street performer who is out there doing this for tips, and some of them make quite a bit of money. and also, another complication

just for the hell of it is to remind you that we don't regulate unamplified free speech, this is a free speech issue, and so it makes that much harder we can regulate free speech with respect to time, place and manner. but the content of that, is again, a touchy subject, we can't curate this group over that group and we can't decide that this is not good enough for this location. and so, it is, and we have to be very cautious in whatever we decide to do we need to go to the city attorney and talk to them about whether we are over regulating the free speech and going to face a legal challenge and so yeah it is complicated and here we are to discuss this and going forward. and then, maybe, i can get some direction from the commission? to next steps, but ultimately,

i think that we are here at the request of mr. comton who has had some problems on the street and i am sure that he will tell you about, and hear from some other folks who are doing this out there, and i think that it is important that you hear from them. >> i don't think that there is anything commissioner, and does park and rec regulate their own spaces like union quair and have you talked to them as the policies. and i know that the port policies are here. >> they do issue their own sound permit. but with respect to the spaces that typically are like requested, as performance spaces, like, union quair and those are handled by a management company that is under contract. >> oh, --. >> so there is a lot of organization and money spent to decide who gets to play in union square and for how much and for how long.

>> and what about, muni and i think that, and i don't know if i can remember amplified sound and i know that there are performers in the subway stations, so bart is. and it is in charge of and this is really jurisdiction issue also, and bart is in charge of what happens in bart plaza and so that is 16th and 24th emission, things that you see. around your control, and but i don't believe that there is a problem in any way, it is just they manage it. >> okay. i have another thought, but then, let's take the commissioner joseph first. >> so, i have two questions the city regulates the street vendor and they issue the permits for the hot dog stand or a food truck or whatever and

some of those cases, i am not sure do they assign them places to be? >> so, when you are the city you do what everyone else does which is you call all of us, and as you know, and so when you say, a food cart or a food vendor you are talking about the health department and dpw and the health department are together and those are some kind of mobile food licensing and there is a process for that, but it is this specific location >> right. >> or a specific like days, but it is, and i believe that it is an annual for a specific location, because their issues are around, what restaurants, or nearby, what part of similar activity is nearby. >> do they have a process of enforcing that? >> i mean, is there something and is that something that we could use or use as an example or take from? in trying to do this pod thing that you want to do? >> maybe. >> okay. >> and then other vendors if it is not food, who regulates

craft vendors? >> so that is the street artists program. >> it is craft vendors. >> the ones that i believe that it is mostly fisherman's wharf. >> jewelry --. >> okay, yeah, any of those big locations that is all that street arts commission program. >> street artists to them do not, however, include street performers. >> and do those folks have locations that they are limited to. >> absolutely. >> do they have a process of enforcing. >> absolutely. >> would that be helpful to us? >> absolutely, you have some of that in front of you, >> my other question is on the free speech aspect you said that we can regulate free speech in the time, place and manner. what do you mean by that? if it is not amplified what do you mean by that?

>> so, the not amplified we don't have any restrictions. >> only if it is amplified. >> correct. >> and so in regulating street performers who are not amplified, like the carpet man, or, yes, hi, or like the bucket man or the statues that, the guys dress in silver or the bush man, and the bush man and stuff and the guy in the street with the parrots. how do we roll it in and how do we, and if we say that the people that we regulate, you got to be in this place for this amount of time, and they did it with the power talks up and say that i am going to be right next to you and there is nothing that you can do about it because he is not regulated and there is no way to move him along and he is exercising his free speech. >> this is what we have run into as a hard wall at the city

attorney's office many times and i don't have an answer. >> taking the bucket man as an example because he is one of our best examples. he plays his buckets and it is not amplified and it takes noise and we know that we get multitude of complaints about the noise that comes up from the buckets into the office buildings like on the 9th floor in one case. and so, if we put the street performer regulation into effect it would not effect the bucket man and because he is not am ply identified what do we do with him? he is making noise? >> that is not entirely question, this is the open question and i don't know the answer right now, but it is part of the conversation. i don't know that we can't

regulate the activity even if it is not amplified i just know right now what our restrictions are, so to answer you, i am not >> okay. >> i am not prepared because we have had this conversation many many times. and given the structure that are in place and the tools, there is, i can't answer you. >> that is the point. >> last question. does every parade in the city need a permit, and those that have music and floats and everything, what about a demonstration that is a parade that is walking down the street and does not have music and just the people shouting and carrying signs that is free speech, are they required to get a permit? >> the police issue is called a parade permit and certainly if they are in the street it is required. >> because of traffic. >> correct. >> if they were on the sidewalk it might not be. >> typically that is not. >> okay. >> thank you very much.

>> let me get this straight, do the performers actually get a corner, when they get a permit, do they get that corner or they can go anywhere they want. >> that is an open question. i don't believe that there would be >> there are month permits. >> how has been done. >> it has not. >> it has never been done. >> it has not been done but the answer to your question is it would be a difficult thing to manage if someone were given annual permit to go anywhere that is probably not the best way to manage this. >> in the future, what you are saying is that we can say that they can have and their permit is for this corner and at this time and then and depending on what is upstairs and we can work out the conditions if we have to. and right now there is nothing. >> that is correct. >> there is no things.

>> okay. >> are there public nuisance laws? >> there is no loitering law on the books n stephenson, other than the one that is related to night clubs and using it for the purposes of the night life and the sidewalks and it does not relate in any way to this issue, as far as i can tell and there is no other loitering law, and there are, you know, generic terms of that but this activity not looked at like that, and no one is suggesting that street performer is loitering or a nuance in any

way, other than if the sound that imminents for time and begins to become a problem for and usually if the offices are retail and so the time in which these performances going on is vital. and that is why the port limits the time, if you have a band, and they are there playing for five hours and they sing the same songs over and over and nobody enjoys that, when they are in the retail establishment, it is great for the people who walk by, and that is the point. so there are no answers to this to make the people happy. >> out of historical kind of knowledge, when it has come up and you are saying that it is resurrected now, when it has come up in the past what has been kind of the killer of any legislations is it free speech, is it --. >> it is that --. >> the city itself, i can't say for sure that it has been

political in every case and we have certainly seen in 2006 there was attempt, and it was pushed back, but, post that, and it has been a problem for the city attorney to come up with some way and they felt that it was not going to be challenged. they are adoment to regulate the free speech in this way is not going to -- like, stand, in court. so we just won't proceed. >> when we talk about amplified sound for events, you know we always say that we can regulate what comes out of the speaker and the amplification and not necessarily what is coming out of your mouth, and i am not a lawyer so i can't say, but i am curious why that interpretation works for a nightclub but not --, because it is after 5:00. >> because it is amplified. >> if it is amplified i thought

that we could regulate it? >> and so again, we can regulate free speech respect to time place and manner. >> right. >> but it has to be a compelling government interest as well to place restrictions on free speech. but wholesale creating a program and guidelines is a much bigger list, and i guess and it has to be a one time, six hour amplified event. >> just to answer your question, there are a lot of street performers that have these little amps that they bring out and these little tiny amps, and in many cases those amps will require a permit from us and even though the guys, and that, and the permits, they have said are very expensive and they are for a limited

period of time, and nobody could afford them. and these folks are working on the streets for, you know, dollars in change and whatever. and some of them make good money and some of them don't, but i mean, if they could work in a nightclub and get paid a big they would not be on the streets, one it is san francisco and so it is really hard to regulate the free speech here where the city has free speech, and every major city has street performers and it leads to the vie brans of the sidewalks and the streets and i mean and there are cities where we say you have to keep your doors closed because that is our rules, other cities they want you to keep your doors open as the people walk by, they want to hear the music and so how we formulate the program will effect the streets of the city and san francisco is

anything but boring and we don't want to make it so i think. >> and i think that part of the reason why i asked about amplification is to see what scope we are talking about, and rec regulate what we can and we can't touch what we can't, and if we are going to come up with a program it has to be amplification and rather than any kind of free speech and the parrots and the drummers and that kind of a thing, i think that those are all of the comments. commissioner moshoyannis? >> it is impossible to go through all of time, but the two page memo is actually really important and interesting, because it highlights the fact that they can certificate the folks who are performers but only those wishing to sell a product like an audio video tape and cd and they have limitation and they want do sound permitting stuff but we can and clearly this does not fall clearly in any

one single department jurisdiction and if there is going to be a program it will ab i program and a collaborative one and i think that it is beyond either scope and that is why when there is no single entity in charge that is easy to say let's just forget about it because nobody has to take the responsibility for it. as i heard you speaking it sounds like it should be their program, so why, and if you could certify and one type of art based performance and why sxaot there are restrictions on what they can do and i understand that now, having read the mm mow and i think that kind of starting the conversation with them but that is also, the creation of a new program that regulate iss going to take some money. >> yeah. >> and bringing the people up to the table, all of these folks. >> right. >> and you are totally correct when it comes to that level of

complication, nobody has time, energy, or the funds, and it does fall by the way side again and again and again. and so, street performers get chased away and we dent get the regulations that we need to help them. >> right. >> yeah. >> i think that this is an interesting kind of a discussion and we have gained over time, more and more, on a plate as a commission. and so, you know this is sort of the next thing to conquer and i think that the commissioners up here have always supported the entertainment and how do we get the entertainment to be promoting this, but also promoting responsibly and happening responsibly and so, we will see how this all ends, but, i think that we may form a subcommittee of folks, on the commission as the commis