not comfortable finding it and 11b was a total rewrite and most of the inspectors in our city are -- let's just say we're not spring chickens anymore. we came in after working several years as contractors or what have you and our average age is in the higher 50's and learning a new code as big of a change it was was not easy for them and this is nice. this gives the code section. they know the measurements. they don't need it written down or pictures and scope has changed and they get that but for the most part the numbers haven't changed that greatly. there's a little bit -- and the thing is in the last three code cycles between

2010cbc to the 2015 change we changed the placement of the toilet three times really, so the numbers are a list are not always going to be there, and so we actually like the fact that it's condensed. i was trying to get it -- if i could have gotten it in one page it would have better form but you can't and you look at the ada ones and there is a four part one that i looked at yesterday, 88 pages. we already have a code book. we have pictures in the code book. but what we need is something to go through. we have a plan and it's the set of plans that we can go off of as well so just a reminder when we should be looking at things. some of the big things -- we get the big things and the toilets where they're supposed to be and when i check the fas set a certain

size and we need the reminders that okay are we looking at a doctor's office? do i need to relook at the parking? if someone wants to change something okay is it allowed under the new code and gives a checklist to make sure we're not running -- because the plans aren't always the way the plans are when they get built so this has been well received. if nothing else it helps them to go to answer the questions and gives the sections they need to go to and one of the things that the guys really like. it's only been a week. i haven't gotten a lot of feedback with. if it's five pages they're not going to use it. two pages yeah we can use it. >> thank you. how liz how does the enforcement play out in pacifica? >> it's permit based that it's in most of the jurisdictions on

the peninsula and the checklist will be used in our jurisdiction and many like it more as a reminder so we don't have what we refer to as the late hit, so the construction project is done and guess what the parking is in the wrong place or the ramp is missed or no handrail or whatever, so we can use it in the field just to go down and as we are there and read down and before the inspection and okay what am i looking at today? okay. i have it in my head and now you go out in the field and look at the plan and i have it all done and it was easy because we have the check list now and we will use it and it will benefit the contractor because we're not going to be out there as long. we don't need to be because we have a checklist and go boom, boom, boom and go around the site and do it one time so it's beneficial for the code and everyone's time. >> thank you. so randy can

you talk about generally some of the challenges you face in access compliance and if there is anything that this particular commission could do more for people that are in your industry? >> it's a great question. thank you. well, i think many of the challenges have been shared by other panelists, and and i share them. cass -- small business. we talked about that a little bit. they in particular i think the cass legislation and rule making is centered around the small business person and a list like this and i know one size fits

all. it has to be pretty generic but something that is focused for small business. i spend as others do a significant amount of time helping small business with accessibility and compliance, and walking them through that. that's a big part of my job, and a very important part of my job. if we can assist small business in a more robust way i think that would be significant. >> [inaudible] >> okay. i would like to thank ccda for having us here today. i can tell you as a board member and [inaudible] i would like to thank ccda for a job well done. this checklist had been helpful. i will bring

it back to my jurisdiction and have builders call us out for a consultant and encourage that and don't end up like we talked about and randy alluded to as well and we don't want the cold shower at the end of the job and by the way you need to tear this out and this isn't correct so with that being said i believe the checklist will be very useful and spoke to before it's a living document so we will make changes along the way and do that and good document. >> are the cass changes -- (low audio) and during final inspection? >> yes i found that to be true. >> yes. i agree. >> i don't know if there are any questions that have come in from over the phone? i also

invite members of the public to ask questions if they have them. yes, could you come to the front? thank you. if you can identify yourself, speak into the mic. thank you. >> dominick octave i don't with the city of delano. we know a common complaint from businesses is my business was inspected by a inspector in and passed and final and how do you think the checklist will help when a business is not compliant and how will it benefit inspectors in the field? >> i can take part of that.

the one good thing the list is brief and for the time that inspectors have to check code items and they have all of these things and accessibility is another one to be checked and what is grated it's a tickler checklist and what it's intended to be and the code is on the side if you need to dig deeper and we're talking about the dialogue with the contractor, the developer, even the owner, and let's have that discussion up front about this, so that's the benefit i see. >> and to piggyback on that a little most inspectors have the code book in some version with them on the job site. a lot of them have it on an ipad or tablet. some still have books in the car but when the contractor wants to know how to fix a problem they want the number how far does my toilet have to be from the wall? and

if you couldn't remember that there is the check list and the code book and bring it up on the ipad, show it to the builder and do it, great done and move on and it's an immediate answer and that's what they want. >> this commissioner dolim and i will expand it slightly and we have it as a guide when removing barriers or a permit active? front of us -- in front of us but what i got out of the question it's a relatively small percentage of the built environment out there today is currently under permit or active in the permitting process. there's a whole another facet -- probably the majority of our buildings are existing buildings that they're not in the process

of any permit work. they might not have the benefit of this but from the public's viewpoint there seems to be that thought that well it was built 15 or 20 or 25 years ago it passed all of the inspections, so i'm grandfathered. have we ever heard that? >> all the time. >> does anybody want to talk about that because it's really a conundrum? this grandfathering thing, any panelists? >> well there is a certain amount of truth to that because if it was built by the accessibility code during that time and enjoys a safe harbor and unless it's a item new in the code they can't use it, but it's one of the things about the checklist you maybe looking at a building where they put the switches at 54 inches above the floor and if you use the

checklist it says 48 so explaining that difference to people is important. >> as a practicing cass arnie do you find that to be easy to explain to your clientele in your experience that they have a safe harbor issue or possibly it was built wrong and doesn't qualify for the safe harbor? >> well at this point the first thing i ask them is do you want to meet current code that's in place right now or do you want me to look at what was okay back then and is okay now? and? people don't care -- and some people don't care whether it's grandfathered in and safe harbor and others look at current code

and make changes they didn't necessarily have to do. >> thank you. anybody else have something they want to add? >> this is gary again. the checklist to answer the question it's helped with the construction industry is in my jurisdiction it helped significantly with a project where because up in the front phase which was put in that you look at the stages of construction and you have to look at the plans and the complete plans of what the finished product was so an example was the electricians put in the electrical outlets at 15 inches to the bottom of the boxes. it says in the code at the rough floor stage, and when they looked at the check list to look at the plans what was going to be at the finished product

included an inch and a half light concrete over the floor because it was multi-story so for fire resistance rating and then bring the finished floor up and the electrical outlets would have been non compliant at that stage. catching it at the rough electrical stage is a big catch. actually the electrician that installed them was upset but his boss that owned the business was very happy because if it would have had to be done at final he indicated it would have put him out of business but also i'm in a small jurisdiction and in a small jurisdiction we all know about politics and so sometimes when politics come in play it affects when you're going to look at $100,000 fix and they know someone a little over your

head, and there's other things that roll down so this checklist at that point and time made a big significant catch, and saved a whole lot of process. >> i think also a value of the checklist is sharing this with the contractor before they start work. i like to -- like preconstruction meetings share with the contractor this is what i am going to use to measure these things. i'm going to use a 24-inch smart level and not 8-foot small level to check things and this is what i will use to check door pressure so they know at the beginning and this is from the inspector telling them this is what i will look at so think about it before you hit the first nail and sharing it with the contractor before work and contact the

inspector before you start and architects we put it on the drawings for contractors as possible and wait a minute -- have we dealt with that -- >> the front end work. >> thinking about what is coming. this is what the inspector is going to look for so i should look for it too before i start. >> how much education are you doing in your jurisdictions or communities both with contractors, architects and just with the community, your end users -- i consider myself one of your end users. what type of outreach or community education are you involved in and i would like to ask that of everyone. >> in san francisco inspector richard halloran put together a very ambitious program which he has been almost every week a

lunch seminar on a different topic and brings those in the private sector to come and talk about things. i'm going to be doing something in august on historical buildings and? -- and some people have taught them so that education has been very helpful. >> as a training officer with the city of l.a. we have done outreach on several different topics. we have taken -- we have done three classes on cass training. i do a lot with the inspectors but we're also doing outreach with architects and things like that want to come in as well and they have been very appreciative and in fact asked for more than i can actually accommodate, but i've also trained the code enforcement

because we have another issue that we have buildings that are not having permits. sometimes things don't meet what need to be done not because they were done 20 years ago because things have changed without permits and things like that, so they need to be brought in line with that as well. many of our code enforcement officers are not trained in the chapter 11 b because they're primarily residential inspectors, and so i have had to cross that barrier too because we typically only trained our commercial guys in it, and so we were missing a lot of things that could have been caught and so we're starting to train on there for two reasons. one, we're also seeing one of the things we hadn't taken into consideration because we have residential -- one and two

family dwellings and commercial inspectors who are different, but we got a lot of model homes that are set up, and they go through the plan check and there is parking. there is accessible routes. there are -- they have to have accessible bathrooms in these model homes or provide them elsewhere and they weren't getting picked up by the residential inspectors, so the last couple of months i had to go through this with them and explain to them yes you're responsible for that. they said we don't look at sidewalks and when comes to single family dwellings they're right whether it's a walk way or what have you but when it comes to needing accessibility because they plan to use it as a live /work -- in this case a model home, things like that they need to make the catch so they're going to get

those that are needing it, those in code enforcement and those with model homes will get a copy of the checklist as well and to help them understand they need to look at these things when normally not thinking about it. >> thank you. anyone else want to answer the outreach question? >> we have an email group for professionals, architects, and engineers so when we get updated information we do an e-blast to folks. we encourage folks that come in, architects and builders and to go to the institute and we have a lot of classes and i sometimes feel and this is anecdotal and we're in the bubble and the builders don't know what do you have behind the counter? no. this is public information. we will share it with you. we will tell you about the same training opportunities that we go to. we would love to see you there. it makes the process better.

>> [inaudible] >> correct. >> i formally the executive director of the chamber of commerce in my city has my cell phone and direct line to my office. gary was talking about politics. that's just the reality. she also understands what we do and listens which is a gift for me so back to my earlier comment about small business. we hold workshops, outreach for small businesses. i'm always available to go out and review an existing building regarding barriers and accessibility. and then informally it's been really important to me as i am the current chapter president for the valley association of building officials to reach out to the other groups, the builders the architects, to the people that write the

specifications. i mean there are many, many groups that are involved with this, and we put together association events just to informally mingle and it's amazing the information that gets shared and the cards that get exchanged, and it's really just staying engaged with that community. >> right. exactly. i was thinking along the same lines so as long as you keep up with the education committee, whatever group you're in. maybe sure you continue to go to the classes. put it out there you're having a class. invite as many people as possible. that's how you continue to build the trust with each other and get your compliance because a lot of times a change will happen in the code. the building official knows it's changed and the inspector knows but the contractor doesn't know. the

local designers in the town don't know either so if you invite them to the code change classes everybody is on the same page and know what the requirements are beforehand and design the projects to comply so we don't have issues down the road. >> i have a question and there are many years of experience represented on this panel and as you mentioned you're having folks that work for you who are of a certain generation and i think there is a spectrum represented in terms of what generation we're representing here. i am curious for those of you who have been in the field sort of -- we will just say pre-ada to now how has your perspective on access and the built in environment evolved -- not just on a professional level but on a personal level in all

the years you have been doing this work? >> this is gary lehman and i can kind of answer this. well, pre-ada i was in construction, started my construction career back in 1976 but accessibility was still required because we had the 1961 standards and it was required to be accessible. now, the understanding of what a curb ramp was supposed to be like because the standards was quite vague we did pour numerous curb ramps and tear them out and redo them and tear them out and redo them and trying to figure out what it was supposed to be where today it's pretty much there as to what is specifically supposed to be for a curb ramp. the same thing was for the

restrooms and it indicated that you had to have turning clearance and you had to have -- okay, it never gave a dimension where today's codes now it gives strict dimension, so that's come a long ways. also in the 80's i was inspecting under the ansi standards and under some of the california accessibility standards codes and the ansi standards was quite again quite vague. it's what we went by in nevada in the casinos and i was inspecting them in nevada and yes they had to follow the guidelines of accessibility, but it was still so vague that as an inspector you didn't really know -- okay. what do we and how is

it really supposed to be? where today as an inspector you can go to the code and once again it's more specific in telling you how it should be. there are the vague areas within it, but in most of it for a ramp or a curb ramp this is what we were having issues and problems with, or the size of a restroom or the layout of a restroom. this is what we had issues in the past and now it's all been modified much accurate. >> thank you. anyone else want to offer a personal perspective? >> this is jeff james. i will offer my -- i see most of this as far as accessibility and stuff you fall into two groups. those that have and those that will have. at some point in your life you're going to be able to access a public space

and it's important. >> yeah i was thinking about this. the old phrase "where there is a will there is a way" . if people understood and not necessarily the job of the building department. if people understood it's more than the code and it's basic civil rights and it's the right thing to do they might take it more seriously than a building code thing and this is probably related but a lot of the problems that i see in accessibility don't start at the first inspection with the building inspector. it goes back to the architects who don't design with dimensional tolerance, and if every building department will tell all of the architects to go to the access board's website and look at the study that they had david balace do about three years ago on dimensional tolerances and read chapter two. there's three of them and it's all about

designing in tolerance. the codes have changed in recent years so there are few absolutes and more ranges but still when i look at drawings because i do some reviews too i see the absolutes still appearing. one in 12 for a ramp and 32 inches clear, and people don't realize that people can't build that way, so if they would all go to the u.s. access board's website and look at the study and read chapter two and design the tolerance in their drawings by the time it gets to construction there is room for the contractor to move and you will have much more accessibility so it starts much sooner and that research is really important in building departments should let people know about it. >> it's interesting that you mentioned physical access and barrier removal as part of our

nation's civil rights laws and framework. do any of you see yourself as supporting the disability rights, civil rights movement? or even being part of it? >> absolutely. i started as kindly introduced 30 years ago in construction. made my way into architecture, and the code at that time was one small book, the ubc, and it did have ansi standards but it was minimal and what i have seen over 30 years is an awareness of inclusion that something that's very important to me with my inspectors, with everyone in my division, department, and the

ada really has assisted that, and others in becoming more aware, and i thankfully have a teenage and children in their 20's who poke me and keep me aware as well, but i see that as a very important component of my work. >> yes. >> and we're really educating the public. i have gone out on small jobs where you go there and say okay these are not meeting the requirements, and in one particular job the bar was not lowered for seating at 60 inches for accessibility, and the contractor, the owner they didn't want to take up their space, and i said it's not something that you're doing to be nice. it's not something to

attract people that have to be in a wheelchair and make it nice for them. it's part of what needs to be done. it's a civil right and i have done through and i have gone back to jobs after they have done -- they spent the money to get passed and they put it back in because they think they're taking up space they want to use. a lot of time at bars the area we lower it's a place for the waitress to come in and a service area and over and over again i insist before i sign the card that -- the isa is permanently installed so it can't be just something sitting there and remove it and use it for something else. i make sure that the areas that can be marked are marked and still sometimes they get changed back and it's a shame that you can't reach ev