in code enforcement and those with model homes will get a copy of the checklist as well and to help them understand they need to look at these things when normally not thinking about it. >> thank you. anyone else want to answer the outreach question? >> we have an email group for professionals, architects, and engineers so when we get updated information we do an e-blast to folks. we encourage folks that come in, architects and builders and to go to the institute and we have a lot of classes and i sometimes feel and this is anecdotal and we're in the bubble and the builders don't know what do you have behind the counter? no. this is public information. we will share it with you. we will tell you about the same training opportunities that we go to. we would love to see you there. it makes the process better. >> [inaudible]

>> correct. >> i formally the executive director of the chamber of commerce in my city has my cell phone and direct line to my office. gary was talking about politics. that's just the reality. she also understands what we do and listens which is a gift for me so back to my earlier comment about small business. we hold workshops, outreach for small businesses. i'm always available to go out and review an existing building regarding barriers and accessibility. and then informally it's been really important to me as i am the current chapter president for the valley association of building officials to reach out to the other groups, the builders the architects, to the people that write the

specifications. i mean there are many, many groups that are involved with this, and we put together association events just to informally mingle and it's amazing the information that gets shared and the cards that get exchanged, and it's really just staying engaged with that community. >> right. exactly. i was thinking along the same lines so as long as you keep up with the education committee, whatever group you're in. maybe sure you continue to go to the classes. put it out there you're having a class. invite as many people as possible. that's how you continue to build the trust with each other and get your compliance because a lot of times a change will happen in the code. the building official knows it's changed and the inspector knows but the contractor doesn't know. the local designers in the town

don't know either so if you invite them to the code change classes everybody is on the same page and know what the requirements are beforehand and design the projects to comply so we don't have issues down the road. >> i have a question and there are many years of experience represented on this panel and as you mentioned you're having folks that work for you who are of a certain generation and i think there is a spectrum represented in terms of what generation we're representing here. i am curious for those of you who have been in the field sort of -- we will just say pre-ada to now how has your perspective on access and the built in environment evolved -- not just on a professional level but on a personal level in all the years you have been doing

this work? >> this is gary lehman and i can kind of answer this. well, pre-ada i was in construction, started my construction career back in 1976 but accessibility was still required because we had the 1961 standards and it was required to be accessible. now, the understanding of what a curb ramp was supposed to be like because the standards was quite vague we did pour numerous curb ramps and tear them out and redo them and tear them out and redo them and trying to figure out what it was supposed to be where today it's pretty much there as to what is specifically supposed to be for a curb ramp. the same thing was for the

restrooms and it indicated that you had to have turning clearance and you had to have -- okay, it never gave a dimension where today's codes now it gives strict dimension, so that's come a long ways. also in the 80's i was inspecting under the ansi standards and under some of the california accessibility standards codes and the ansi standards was quite again quite vague. it's what we went by in nevada in the casinos and i was inspecting them in nevada and yes they had to follow the guidelines of accessibility, but it was still so vague that as an inspector you didn't really know -- okay. what do we and how is it really supposed to be?

where today as an inspector you can go to the code and once again it's more specific in telling you how it should be. there are the vague areas within it, but in most of it for a ramp or a curb ramp this is what we were having issues and problems with, or the size of a restroom or the layout of a restroom. this is what we had issues in the past and now it's all been modified much accurate. >> thank you. anyone else want to offer a personal perspective? >> this is jeff james. i will offer my -- i see most of this as far as accessibility and stuff you fall into two groups. those that have and those that will have. at some point in your life you're going to be able to access a public space and it's important. >> yeah i was thinking about

this. the old phrase "where there is a will there is a way" . if people understood and not necessarily the job of the building department. if people understood it's more than the code and it's basic civil rights and it's the right thing to do they might take it more seriously than a building code thing and this is probably related but a lot of the problems that i see in accessibility don't start at the first inspection with the building inspector. it goes back to the architects who don't design with dimensional tolerance, and if every building department will tell all of the architects to go to the access board's website and look at the study that they had david balace do about three years ago on dimensional tolerances and read chapter two. there's three of them and it's all about

designing in tolerance. the codes have changed in recent years so there are few absolutes and more ranges but still when i look at drawings because i do some reviews too i see the absolutes still appearing. one in 12 for a ramp and 32 inches clear, and people don't realize that people can't build that way, so if they would all go to the u.s. access board's website and look at the study and read chapter two and design the tolerance in their drawings by the time it gets to construction there is room for the contractor to move and you will have much more accessibility so it starts much sooner and that research is really important in building departments should let people know about it. >> it's interesting that you mentioned physical access and barrier removal as part of our nation's civil rights laws and

framework. do any of you see yourself as supporting the disability rights, civil rights movement? or even being part of it? >> absolutely. i started as kindly introduced 30 years ago in construction. made my way into architecture, and the code at that time was one small book, the ubc, and it did have ansi standards but it was minimal and what i have seen over 30 years is an awareness of inclusion that something that's very important to me with my inspectors, with everyone in my division, department, and the ada really has assisted that, others

in becoming more aware, and i thankfully have a teenage and children in their 20's who poke me and keep me aware as well, but i see that as a very important component of my work. >> yes. >> and we're really educating the public. i have gone out on small jobs where you go there and say okay these are not meeting the requirements, and in one particular job the bar was not lowered for seating at 60 inches for accessibility, and the contractor, the owner they didn't want to take up their space, and i said it's not something that you're doing to be nice. it's not something to

attract people that have to be in a wheelchair and make it nice for them. it's part of what needs to be done. it's a civil right and i have done through and i have gone back to jobs after they have done -- they spent the money to get passed and they put it back in because they think they're taking up space they want to use. a lot of time at bars the area we lower it's a place for the waitress to come in and a service area and over and over again i insist before i sign the card that -- the isa is permanently installed so it can't be just something sitting there and remove it and use it for something else. i make sure that the areas that can be marked are marked and still sometimes they get changed back and it's a shame that you can't reach everyone as important as it is but it falls upon

building inspectors to understand what needs to be done and to educate and i think we will get there. we are getting better than it used to be in some regards as far as people understanding. i have seen isa on bathrooms that i would have a hard time able bodied to turn around in so having the sticker doesn't mean anything if you don't have the room, so that's where code enforcement comes in. that's where if you have a permit that's where the inspector comes in and it doesn't start at the final and gee this is off. we have to change it. it starts at the beginning and letting them know it's important and you're going to be looking at it and make sure it's done correctly. >> when i was working at the center for independent living we would often provide consultation and advice to small businesses that wanted to know how they could improve access and

fortunately sometimes it was after they had a complaint or legal action so one of the first things we would do is refer them to a cass and tell them you need to get professionals involved, but it was always startling to me how many business owners would just say they didn't understand that they had to provide access, and what that meant and they always blame you guys. >> right. >> they always say "but i passed inspection". >> [inaudible] >> i would simply add that accessibility is just become more prominent as a concept really as a result of ada. i guess i came up from a different world. 1958 when my younger sister was born with cerebral palsy and go through special education, having her friends

of being one disability sort of another i just became more conscious of it and i think the hard part that we all get is representatives of the construction industry of the building officials department and the public that didn't have the opportunity to visualize and be able to explain we have grab bars for this reason because remember this is how it gets used, and so many building officials maybe put on the spot because they don't know a certain rational for why something is there and i would just encourage that it makes sense for everybody to understand the purpose of what we're doing. it's not just to meet a code. there is some function that it really does help. >> [inaudible] >> yeah, i have a quick story here. a couple years back we

were working with a business owner for a permit process for a candy store in the mountains and kicking and screaming about the requirements all the way but eventually complied and had a compliant business and i get this cold call three months later after the building was final and the business owner was apologizing to me and they called the board of supervisors and why are you making -- we went through the whole thing as gary alluded to and i asked why and having an accessible business was the best thing that happened and i asked him to explain that statement and with the tour buses going to yosemite he had a reputation of being a compliant business and all the thank you's he got from the public and that experience lead him to vol tarly update other businesses in the state. >> you should put him on a poster or something.

>> i was shocked. >> i need to know where the candy store is and i go to so semmity and sometimes driving up there and it's the reality. can i get in there? can i go to the bathroom? can i shop? yeah, i would like to know where the candy store is. i will tell my friends. >> just to follow up on the question basically my career was moat vaitd by civil rights and the first architect recruited by a vista in the 60's and in the early 90's i went to l.a. and looking for a job and we had dinner in a couple's house who had been involved in protests where they blocked traffic with their wheelchairs to get attention and so on, and all of a sudden it clicked in my head this is the same thing as civil

rights marchers blocking traffic and things like that and i think that's the thing for the public there isn't that connection this is a civil right. it's just an obligation and until it gets to that point where people understand it really is it makes it a little harder. >> i don't know they will see the day when universal is the standard but that would eliminate a lot of that and we design for anybody. anybody else want to add any thoughts? >> one quick one. i've had very few mentors in my life but one significant mentor, tim sullivan and a former building official for the city of sacramento and tim at one point before i knew him put all of his inspectors in wheelchairs and sent them through old sacramento

which is notoriously unaccessible, and that type of awareness is so important. that is one of our tasks as building officials and as regulators to increase that awareness, and that's part of my overview as an architect as well, but we don't just read black and white. we do a lot of interpretation and we have clients, and as building officials we have all the citizens of our jurisdiction and those who come into it, so it is a very, very important facet of what we do. >> for anyone on the panel how ucate small business owners or contractors talk about sort of the range of access? because i think oftentimes when

speaking about the built in environment and barrier removal and people envision with disabilities but we should design for code enforcement and a range of disabilities, and visual impairment and all sorts of things so if you could talk about some of the lessor understood aspects of accessible spaces. >> one of the big problems that i've had with architects is -- well, there's two, the line on the stairs. they want to make it go away and i said you can't. the whole idea is so you can see it. >> with individuals with low vision. >> low vision. they try to do something that meets it and looks like it fits there and i said that's not the point. it's supposed to stand out so they can see it. i had a couple of carpets and it's not

contrasting enough and they said there is no standard and there is a standard but it's not codifyd and that and also trying to hide if you will, it is truncated dorms, not wanting to put that and it's one that everybody likes to say something about because it's hard for a person in a walker to get over the truncated dorms but different for someone with a different disability so people complain about it all the time and try to leave it out and a lot of architects try to hide it. it's a warning. you don't want to hide the warning. you are not supposed to camouflage it and working with people on that and in the current building we're in it's very odd how they have done this step and using -- trying to use groves to make it

instead of using lining that makes it very hard especially in the evening and night time with the type of construction. it's a very -- looks neat but it's not very functional with a set of stairs and the fact they're using lines -- groves instead of the warning line it makes it very hard and yet a lot of architects still think that is okay. >> [inaudible] >> one of the -- this is commissioner dolim and the textbook and the examples that we all have in our career come up and i was trying to explain to a client with a strip mall and why they needed identification for the suites. we were arguing and no other way to see it and we're in a vacant

suite. i can't afford this and i have to go to the bankruptcy judge and get money because the property was in foreclosure and this isn't going to help anybody and right then the door was swung open and a lady that was blind and threw the door open and said "is this the hair salon and i am late and is this suite 204" and like i prompted that but unfortunately it was really a situation -- >> you were talking about the signage. >> we were talking about the tactile signage that would identify the suites in a long door to different suites and low and behold the argument ended with the client and the tactile sign showed up the next week. >> that's exactly what you have to do and your example came in the door so that was easy

for you. i have given the example and they have some element that is not accessible and door knobs. i say would you hire a veteran. of course i would hire a veteran. would you hire a veteran that had an ied that blew up and they need a lever hardware to access the suite. yes, i would hire that person. okay go get the levers and get rid of the door knobs and it's not just about that but hearing, vision anything that is not an element that was the way that i look perhaps or something you know, -- >> you frame it in a way that person might understand. >> and sometimes you have to be rather abrupt with it but it goes back to your civil right. would you hire a veteran? of

course. would you hire a person in a wheelchair? no. you couldn't, really? >> that's a different conversation. >> you would be in violation of the law then. you're good with that? yeah so there's a lot of that too so it's all about the visual. how do you get them to understand why the code is written that way. >> i find that in my role at sutter health so my job is to -- i basically see myself as the quarterback for disability compliance program so there's the policies and procedures but also the barrier removal, so i am kind of the quarterback for the team of planners and architects and everybody that's involved with building care sites or doing barrier removals and reporting on the progress there, and have two things that come up sometimes. either that wasn't called out in the survey,

and yet we have to do it to meet code, but the other thing that we're working on there is it's sort of -- you know, what i would like to see is have people think maybe not strictly to the code. some people are so focused well this wasn't specifically spelled out but the ada still requires to think about how a space is used and who is going to be using it and designing it in the way that people have equal access so i am wondering if anybody would talk about -- when you talked about doing outreach to architects and contractors and working with people that are the design end or building end do you ever have those conversations when there might be a gray area where the code isn't very specific about something but we know that people need to provide the access? >> that's when i ask people what was the intent of this and

especially in existing or historical buildings what are ways to get that at intent? because the code is built for new buildings so if you can get people to first of all take a deep breath and tap their problem solving genes and ask them to think about what do they really intend here? sometimes you can come out with other ways to get at the problem. >> that's exactly what we do in my work and i think the team is really good at thinking about how a space is being used or what the intent was so thank you. is there any other questions from the public? please identify yourself. >> my name is [inaudible]. i work for bart in transportation which is slightly different from building, and i to follow up on your question i believe most

cities have disability community, mayor's commission on disability. are you guys familiar? the building officials interact with the people with disability, mayor's commission on disability in your area? because some of the issues just like the question is that a lot of times the users actually in most cases can help you out, educate you. architects and people that are not familiar with the user needs in the environment, so an interaction and outreach to the community. do you ever suggest to the architects have you reviewed this with the disability community for example? if it's a big project that will impact a lot of users. >> this is gary lehman. in

orvil sometimes we have some historic and older buildings and they go in and do alterations and repairs, and so this is when e equivalent presentation is provided and northern california independent living service that i have a very close relation with as well as with my cass reviews that i have them assist me in review my review the process or what's being brought forward and provide their input what would be better used or better approach to them if they felt, so yes, i do use it and they have changed their name just recently but the northern california independent living services which is an advocacy group of different disabilities,

not just one, and so i take advice from them and i also have them review and approve along with my approval, so this is one approach that i use to overcome politics shall i say sometimes. >> it's a great question. randy good one. one of the many hats i wear i have been trying to guide a group in the city with our transition plan updating our transition plan which is a living document for a city showing that we are removing barriers and our self evaluation, and i have to explain that not only the importance of this and all of the facets of it. it's vast to

our council groups who represent different disabilities and have different agendas and again it's a task that often falls to a building official and it's an important facet of the community. i have learned a lot through the transition plan process and the different community members that we have dealt with. we still have a long ways to go, but yeah. >> i think we're about ready to wrap things up unless anyone has closing thoughts or impressions you would like to share. i will yield to angela executive director of the ccda. >>