be back with you. as a company, we've been at the fore front of innovation in the public space. we think it's important to take care of it. over the last years, 20 years, 40 years, things have changed. we see a lot of demand coming from the public. it is better bottom up than top down. we have to adapt. we have to change. i think it's all of us that are trying to make the city a better place and how can we achieve that? our expertise is how do we

connect services to the public. our clients are the city, but the users are the citizens or the visitors. so we think a lot about it. and we are not selling the services. we keep the maintenance. we are operators. so whatever is done on day one, we have to make sure that it would be functional, clean, something we can maintain in year two, year 10, whatever. as a company and with all our team around the country and the world, it's always very complex between what you can see the first time and you would like and what can be built and maintained? so we have to take care of these from top to bottom over the

years. so that's something that is thinking about it, back and forth, back and forth. but we're about to achieve it in san francisco for the last 20 plus years. the toilets have been walking nonstop for 20 years, 25 toilets, every single day. over the last 12 months, 800,000 people have used the bathrooms in san francisco. so more than the population of the city. innovation, the capital of innovation, in digital world, but we're living in the physical world and we believe that innovation is about technology, data, digital, and we are big into it, but innovation is also social innovation. and that's what san francisco bought with the toilets in the last two years, thanks to public

works with the attendant. so now we have attendants through a social program. they're controlling who is using the bathrooms and who can go in and that's been a change. sometimes some corners in the city are a little bit rough, socially challenging. and it doesn't matter what you have as a structure. if you don't have that, you need that for people visiting especially to have a clean, safe place. so that social innovation. and then innovation in the process. and that's what we've been doing the last four, five months, when

you ask us to go back and think again. so we went back to the drawing board and went through a process involving the commission at the same time, working with public works, going through the custom design and making progress. what we'll show you today is two models of public toilets and three models of kiosk. so we are far along on the publ public toilets. we see there is some engineering to do, but we're close to it. on the kiosk, we have three kios kiosks. we had a big discussion about

the -- this is still something that we're working on. so we'll show you some options that are more viable than the others. there is still a lot of engineering to be done. we don't want to mislead the city and the commission, the two commissions, i should say, but telling you it's a beautiful design, but three months down the road come back and say, we have to change the design. to my earlier comment, everything has to be tight, the usefulness of the service. so that's my presentation. will be happy to answer any questions. thank you, again, for your time and consideration. >> commissioner wolfram: thank you. >> good afternoon,

commissioners. i'm bill cates from smith group and i will walk you through the thought process from the original concept design and the process that beth outlined and bring you through that and talk about where we're at with these. as francois mentioned, it's the early stages, so we're engineering some of them. and some elements are further along than others and i will explain those as we go forward. with that, i will switch to this microphone? no? >> you can. we'll pick it up. >> can you hear me? >> yep. >> great. it's a rendering of the single restroom kiosk on market street. we'll get back to that image in a minute. just want to start with the initial questions and concepts that we dealt with to come up with the solution in the office. and really we wanted to create a singular concept object that could deal with the varied

neighborhoods in san francisco. it's happening in different locations in the city. our solution was to design transformative designs that had variations. you will see that when i get to them in a minute, so in some locations, the toilet kiosk can look one way and then adapt to the neighborhoods themselves. how can the kiosks reflect the rich history of the city while expressing concepts of technology and looking towards the future. our solution for that was a sculptural solution that merges nature and technology. we really feel that this is in many ways what asan francisco i all about, embracing our environment, but embracing what is around us and being respectful of our history. we hope that the kiosks and toilets represent that. the third element, we want to

create a design that's complex in its concept, but simple in terms of its maintenance and replacement and repair as necessary. our solution was to create a kit with the smallest amount of pieces as necessary. if something is destroyed or vandalized, it can be easily replaced over time. so the goal, as francois mentioned, to keep them running, as they have in the past. our team and our office, it's not just me and tyler who is with me, who designed this. it was a large group of people with all kinds of crazy, diverse ideas that have come together. it's been a community design. equally important is that all of those people live in the city themselves and have been using and seeing and admiring these kiosks and what they can accomplish for the city.

this image here, represents the board that we put together. this is the second-round board, that beth mentioned, that had all of our concepts and ideas combined. and i will break that out in the next couple of images to talk about the concepts and how they relate to the three questions that we were trying to answer during the process. there is a lot of collaborative work here and one of the steps of the process was a visit from both beth and francois in our office where the team came in and showed the sketches and concepts that led to the design itself and inspired by many different things, whether it's art, architecture, the way items are drawn, the way that water can be reused in the relationship and in the growing landscape. so here you see, for example, the notion that i mentioned about variations in the city.

on the left, you see the simple kiosk. as you look on the right, some have planting on top. some have trees adjacent. this was an ideas competition and we wanted to bring that home and collectively with these plus the kiosk create a story about the city and about sustainability. objects are meant to be sculptural for many reasons. one of them was to minimize their presence. in some cases, they bend in the middle to reduce the massing of them. also reflectivity. the more curves and different shapes they are on the outside and the changing, it reflects different angles of what is happening around the city. so it's not a mirrored presence. you walk up and see your full

reflection. the goal is that it abstracts it as an art piece itself. we're still looking at the exact nature of exterior material, texture and reflectivity. we'll work with that as we go forward in the process. constructability, as i mentioned, obviously working closely with francois and jcdecaux to build something that is buildable, maintainable, flexible. they're in the street. we understand the environment and understand the abuse of things that they will get. we want to be sure that they hold up. and optimizing the size and make sure that a panel can be rotated, placed on the top, and the supply of replacement pieces can be as limited as possible. that was the initial concept. as we get into the parts and

pieces, we're dealing with the realities of that and determining the parts and pieces to make them as maintainable as possible. in terms of materiality, there are many items in this that are really responses to maintainabili maintainability. we want it to be very strong as it touches the sidewalk and ground. and the areas that people reach and touch has different aspects of it. and above one's head, that can be a different concept. at the same time, being smart about the durability of them from the ground up. we want to go through and start with the public toilets and work our way to the kiosks. the public toilets are the item

we started with first in terms of the engineering process. and we're pretty far along with that. for memory's sake, to the right, represents the drawings of the existing restroom kiosks and then some photos of what they look like. here's some drawings that show you the single unit kiosk. there's a single toilet restroom kiosk and there's a double. there are no doubles out there now. that is being added to the mix in this process. here to the right, you see the elevations. the smaller elevation all the way to the right and then adjacent to that, the straight-on elevation of the long side. below it, you can see the plan. and the undulating shape that wraps around that and to the left, quick, early rendering studies. i will click it and there's a

change at the top. in the proper locations, there could be landscape on top of those. we've been looking at adding a skylight to the top of these so when you are inside, you get more natural light and it's less cavernous. so we want to make them a nice -- continue to develop the experience inside and make it a nicer experience. here's the double toilet solution. at the bottom right, you can see a plan at that. one is a.d.a. accessible and the other is not. it's a wider unit, but still has the same curves and shape for the most part as the single toilet. also, the notion of having the skylight and planting at the top is both of those.

so we're working on the exact details of these. we've looked at the curvature and relation to a.d.a. and people walking by, developing the signage and integrating it and making sure that the functional elements are integrated with the form, so it's a seamless process. those things we're still working on. all the things that you would expect to happen here, but still maintaining the initial concept and shape of the project. here's a rendering just done showing the single toilet and how it would look on market street. with that, i will hop over to the kiosks. as francois mentioned, we're really in the thick of developing these. it's a much earlier phase. there are three types of kiosks on the street. there's the retail version,

which opens up. there's the advertising kiosk that just has print ads on them. the future version of those will have the ability to have l.e.d. electronic images. and the third, one that is an interactive kiosk with the ability for touch screen interactions. the bottom image you see, represents the existing interactive and the one above that represents the current retail version. right now, you see the existing retail version and then we have three different solutions that we're still developing. there are different variations that affect the size or circumference or width of these on the sidewalk. we're dealing with the mechanisms inside and the addition of the l.e.d. screens, it involves more meat inside, for lack of a better word, to

make sure that they're easy to open and maintain and adjust during the process. all of these are important to consider as we develop the design. also, we're charged with placing these on the existing foundations. so getting that to work, as you can obviously tell, there's a round foundation with the existing kiosks and we have a three-sided kiosk that will take its place. so it's the age old, triangular peg in a round hole situation that we're dealing with. we're working to develop that, that has tied into the toilets the same, reflective material, same base at the bottom and then the curvature that will have a relationship to those. so it really is a family of elements on the street that tie into the development of these amenities in the city. the next three, and it's one of those things, where it's hard to

tell the difference, but we're dealing with the subtleties of the first one here, to the next one of dealing with the curvature of the corners of the elements, keeping them as tight and small as possible, understanding that every inch on the sidewalk is sacred and used by many different people and we want to make sure that these live up to that. there are slight variations in curvature and the relationship of top to bottom that we'll continue to develop as we move forward. with that, i don't know if there is something else you want to say, but we can open it up for discussion. >> commissioner wolfram: thank you very much. let's start with public comment, so we can get that -- any comments from the public? if any member of the public wishes to speak, you will have 3 minutes and there's a 30-second

warning buzzer before your time is up. >> thank you very much. a couple of things -- thank you very much. i'm stan hayes and i'm co-chair of zoning and planning for hill dwellers. this is very important. it's a once in a generation decision. the choice of the next design, you can frame our perception of it for the next 20 years. and, like you, we want these designs to be a success. for that to happen, there are several criteria 7 -- of design. it needs to evoke the history of san francisco. it needs to reinforce location context. it needs to improve on current designs and not be arguably

worse. it should not be hard-edged and too urbanized or so generic at its core that it could be anywhere. and we think that the design before you as it currently sits does not meet these criteria adequately, especially in areas that are of historic and heritage context like coit tower and washington square and north beach, which is why we urge you to further expand your design choices to keep looking. and if you feel it's necessary to go back to the drawing board and rethink the process a little bit, maybe even to reconsider, a fresh version of designs that are currently used. and we understand that while those toilets and kiosks are aging and many of them in need of repair, their design successfully evokes a sense of san francisco's history and

heritage. perhaps refurbishment is needed and not replacement. in any event, we hope that you will consider this issue, continue to find variations on what you've got before you and perhaps look even further out and define designs that are not even on the table at this point. thank you very much and good luck. >> commissioner wolfram: thank you. does any other member of the public wish to comment on this item? if so, please come forward. seeing and hearing none, we'll close public comment. commissioners, i only have the ability for members of my commission to do requests to speak, so i'm not sure how we'll organize this in an orderly fashion. normally we push our buttons and i call members in order and we don't talk over each other. >> how about we raise hands and arms? >> commissioner wolfram: that will work. first of all, opening comments, i'm very thankful to the city and jcdecaux for organizing this

competition. we're thrilled to see the design thinking that's gun to date. i think it's been a really great process that you have taken so seriously. commissioner johnck. yoip>> justin: -->> commissioner johnck: i am excited to have this discussion. i want to thank you for your efforts and i think it's been a success story. i remember the brouhaha over the idea of having public toilets on the street. and i will say -- and this leads to my question and my interest in durability. looking at the aesthetics and the design features, that's certainly of interest, but i'm interested in the durability and the material aspect of it, of the selection. and this leads me to, as i say,

the successful continuance of the toilets and the kiosks on the streets. and i guess my question -- my first question is, i haven't seen any graffiti or any exterior damage to the assemblage. [inaudible] >> jcdecaux maintains them. >> commissioner johnck: to me, i like the current design. it's historic. so as we -- if we move away from that, i would be interested in either hearing more about how much damage that you've had to correct on the exterior, versus what i'm worried about, seeing this material here and worrying about graffiti and vandalism. so that's the tenor of my

comments. >> commissioner wolfram: maybe you can address that question. >> again, francois with jcdecaux. thank you for the comments and the question. when we build and we engineer, it's done for maintenance and future use. in san francisco, we have a dedicated team working seven days a week, two shifts, and we have graffiti and vandalism, but we respond pretty fast, and maybe that's why you don't see it. [laughter] >> commissioner johnck: okay. well -- >> commissioner wolfram: doing a good job. >> it's a lot of work. we spend a lot of time. it's like any organization, it's operations, so you train your team and your supervisors.

you have me running around and taking pictures and calling the office. that's something that we do all the time, seven days a week. so if the unit is fairly well built and you have the processes in place, so you are able to respond very fast. two weeks ago, a car drove into the case of a kiosk. the base is cast iron, so it's impossible to mold the cast iron overnight. but we have spare parts in the warehouse for 20 years. that was only two weeks ago. at fisherman's wharf, somebody lit a fire inside the unit. it's a condition -- concrete shell, you open it and it's black. you feel like it's the end of the world. no. we have our team and we sent

three guys and the concrete is p polished. you get it back, and you are back in business. you can get that only if you have a commitment and a team working on a day-to-day basis. otherwise, it's not working. i think the belief was to get the more contemporary design, more modern, to reflect today's san francisco. so that's where we went to the design. so it's not generic. it's well thought out. and we think we have something. but we want to listen to your comments and see how we can adjust and adapt. >> commissioner wolfram: thank you. i want to clarify for the members of the historic preservation commission. we should be looking at this through a lens that we'll be granted certificates of appropriateness to the kiosks

and toilets in historic districts. it's a reasonable question to ask about maintenance and durability, but we need to focus or lens not on personal opinion whether we like or don't like it, but if they can be compatible in the historic districts that they will be placed. that's an important position. i had a couple of questions for the design team. what is determining the height of the toilet structures? it looks like there's quite a lot of space in the top. then the second question, and maybe you said this, but is there any reason that the kiosks can't be round, the advertising kiosks? two questions for the designer at the jcdecaux team. >> this is my opportunity. i've been working on this with bill. the space above the toilets, the

true maximum height of these is dictated by transport of them on day one. so they have to fit underneath muni overhead wires and cables, wall being on a low-slung truck, which sets us at about 12 feet. the height there, part of it is a function of trying to maintain the exterior cladding being identical. so the one that you see -- in the image that you were seeing, the bottom 18 inches or so is a concrete base, because that's where most of the abuse is. it's where you kick it, the cart runs into it. it gets really abused. the next 5 1/2 feet, which goes up to the head of the door, is metallic and really where you will get the most of the graffiti, because it's at writing level. and there's a texture on it to

prevent stickers and larger graffiti pieces on it. we're working on the exact dim he shuns -- dimensions and sizes. the two panels are almost identical, so that jcdecaux can stock one panel. it goes this way or you turn it over and it goes like this. it's a little shorter and roof works a little different, but generically, the same panel, so they wouldn't have to stock as many for replacement over 20 years. there's the door mechanism infrastructure up there because the doors are sliding and there are motors to get that to work. there's a skylight infrastructure and reserving space up there that could be a greenery on top of the roof. what was your first question?

>> commissioner wolfram: the round. they're round now. the question was, why are you moving to a triangle? is it impossible to do a round kios kiosk. >> there's a desire to have l.e.d. advertising modules and those are ideally flat. one of the options that we showed you is in that realm where the glass exterior cladding is not necessarily aligning with the panel behind it. it's a geometric exercise, square peg, round hole to, get that minimized as much as possible. the square footage of advertising on the kiosk is dictated in the jcdecaux and public works contact. it's trying to get the correct

width of a flat panel l.e.d., getting three of them in a triangle and wrapping it with a circle, it becomes enormous. so it's geometric, freshman-level geometry. [laughter] >> commissioner wolfram: thank you. very helpful. >> commissioner woolford: last week, commissioner schnair and i met with you for an informal. and it appears that there may be detailed differences between what you shared with us last week and what we are looking at today and can you explain those and why we're seeing a change? a couple of for examples. in the single-unit toilet, which is essentially, a double camber cylinder with a concave web that intercepts them, it appeared that last week it was a deeper

concave section and it's shallower now. and some of the details on the kiosks appear slightly different. and we would like to understand the changes. >> sure. the toilet kiosk has not changed. it's the exact, same shape we had before. it might be the appearance of the renderings, but it's the exact, same shape. the kiosks, we have changed, and we're searching for the right dimensions and curvature. so while one of the three elements looks similar to what we showed you, we're working through that. and it basically represents the strugg struggle of the shape. so we're still wrestling with it. instead of not showing anything,

it was important to show where we're at and talk about the issues we're struggling with and because it's so early, we will be back to talk about that. we heard the comments about the desired shape in relation to the toilet kiosk. we're trying to hold true to that while dealing with the specifics of the functioning kiosk. >> commissioner woolford: in the competition scheme, was the concave area between them deeper? maybe it's through rendering, but they appeared to be more clearly described as two columns, and now in the render, it appears to be -- >> i will check on that. we've made modifications, but

it's critical that it be as deep as we can get it. from the competition scheme, what we're showing here, what had to do with the a.d.a. staff and talked about the exact curvature of the elements, we're dealing with projection over the sidewalk. but we can look at the comparison, knowing that what we're showing you here is what we have a couple of days ago. if the goal is to continue to -- the deeper that is, the more it breaks up the massing. and that's very important to us. we can continue to struggle to emphasize that more if you feel like it's getting to the point where it's not strong enough. >> commissioner woolford: in the rendering on the cover, it looks

more than the vertical columns with a concave web. >> okay. >> if i may, inside, we have the minimum dimension for a.d.a. so we cannot go in. on the outside, most of the units have the curve. so we have to maintain from the edge, from the outside edge of the toilets. we have to maintain a minimum of 18 inches on that edge to the face of the curve. so in the design competition, we tried to keep the spirit, but we have to deal with reality to see how mechanically it can work. so we push it to the maximum as we understand it today.

what we showed last week is exactly the same as today. maybe the rendering, maybe the lighting, can be adjusted. >> commissioner wolfram: nip further comments? >> commissioner sadin schnair: a couple of comments. i know when we had our informal meeting, the reflective panels we discussed about the different materials. i know you are still working on that. one of the things, though, i think is important to consider is because you have the curvature, the reflective quality, on these major thoroughfares, is something to just be aware of in terms of -- from a safety standards and issues that way. so i wanted to be on the record saying that as we move forward and we work on bringing

different materials and stuff, that we keep that very much in the fore front. i know the concept is reflective. but there's a way it do reflective on curves without it being glaring. i know you are aware of that, but i wanted to state that. also, i'm wondering about the durability of the curved doors on the bathrooms because they're on tracks and stuff. if you could speak to that. >> francois, jcdecaux. the existing units we have today have curved panels. the door is curved. it swings in, but it looks like it's sliding in, but technically, it swings in. if we have 13 million usages plus, it means that they almost 13 million, so 26 million times. and still working, so it's kind of overbuilt. it's a concern, but we --

technique that we are using today and it's engineering that we have developed and we used, so we feel comfortable that we will be able to have a curved design like the one we're showing today that we work with over time and maintain as well. >> commissioner wolfram: commissioner pearlman? >> commissioner pearlman: thank you. i'm a member of the architectural review committee. i want to congratulate you on the amazing distance you have come from what i call the toaster or the bus and the earlier designs. i was in paris recently and just this morning i found this picture of a street piece in paris from what looks like the 1930s. i was amazed at how similar in essence the concept was to both

what we have now and sort of harkening to the direction you've gone. this has classical columns and things, but it's very modernist, 1930s element, that landed on the streets of paris, at a time when the streets of paris still to this day, of course, are very classical and must have been quite a shocking contrast between the modernism of something that looked like this and the buildings that were -- that it was next to. and i will be a little all over the map, because when i saw this design, when this came out, at first, i was very reactive to it. partially, i think, because of the materials. i thought that, you know, this looks extremely shiny, mirror-like, which i thought would be very, both, dangerous,

because you get the sun glare, as well as not really appropriate in historic districts, where, you know, you will be distorting the imagery of the buildings that are sitting near it. so i am pleased to see this response because clearly this is significantly less mirror-like and still has a shininess, a sparkle to it, but does not have that kind of concern that was just mentioned. so i'm much more in line with this. i think in general, it's -- you know, i mean, this is a very good image. we have a fairly important building over here, the old emporium store, at the west side -- westfield mall, and one of the significant san francisco architects. so there's a good image to look at relative to our charge of how

will this feel relative to historic districts. i thought it was interesting, mr. hayes talking about the criteria that they looked at and the first one says, evoke the history and heritage of san francisco. and it's an interesting thing, because the question is, should something that's a 21st century element that we're putting on the streets significantly be historical? you know, we've done that. that's what's there now. we have the false historicism. because i started exactly where mr. hayes is. what's wrong with what we have now? we've gotten used to them. they're handsome. they kind of disappear because we're used to them, but then it appears that cities change and grow and clearly there are reasons why we're looking at a new design at this point.

should that design be historical or should it be something that -- you know, we have a 21st century city. we're a tech city. we're firmly in the 21st century. and is that appropriate? at first, i was resistive to it. and i've really, actually, come a long way in my own thinking that this -- that this could fit in quite well. i don't think it's, you know -- and, actually, the fact that it is different and it is sculptural and it is kind of a stand-alone object makes it better relative to the historic fabric of the city. every time i travel to europe, when we see historical building and setting and new, modern building in it, there's no

efforts in places like barcelona or paris to necessarily, you know, kind of try to relate. but for the most part, you have a modern building in a setting that might be historic. i think it makes sense, because it enhances both. you see both, as opposed to one disappearing or one being imitative, which i don't think is appropriate. so, you know, i think this has come a long way. and i think that is -- that is an appropriate response. it's brilliant, the design, relative to the parts, the kit of parts. i mean, i had a professor 30 some odd years ago that talks about kit of parts. i had a studio, where we had to try to figure that out. and i know how challenging that is. it's easier now with machines

and 3d printing but still i know how challenging it is to come up with a design that's functional and aesthetic and maintenance as well as having four parts or five parts that fit. so that was challenging and brilliant. the one thing that i don't really understand or get is the need for the nature as part of this. it seems so strangely disassociated to have some plants on the roof. it will be a maintenance nightmare to keep the plants on the roof, especially the ones with a tree that you can only get to by going up 13 feet in the air. and seems a little odd to me that you would have a tree on top of a toilet. it doesn't seem to make sense to me. even the bench element that you've shown in this rendering and you show it as a part, it looks like a potty that you get

in the hospital because you can't get out of your bed. that's literally it looks like to me. maybe that's appropriate. but i don't think any of that is necessary to do their job and fit in well with the districts. overall, i think it could be a very nice amenity. and obviously each one will have to be evaluated when it comes to us relative to where it's located and we would take another look. thank you. >> commissioner wolfram: thank you. >> i'm beth rubenstein from san francisco public works. i wanted to address your question around the vegetation. when we -- the first go-around with the competition, a major part of the design was the tree on the roof and it was a wow

factor. and i think it's -- it was an interesting conversation with the jury that people were wowed by it, but they were like, it can't be built. we can't do this. what we heard is that theres with a real interesting connection and it was a sculptural, modern object. and the way we want to pursue it, because it's really not -- jcdecaux will say it's not feasible to put a tree on the roof. lots of reasons why a tree on the roof can't work, but we have talked about using vegetation in certain locations. when smith group presented what the toilets may look like. we may do that in a few locations, so that there is a connection between vegetation

and the sculptural objects, so two or three. then with the benches around it, it may happen in areas that have c.b.d.s, like cart row and market. they would be interested in that, because they see their toilet and the kiosk as neighborho neighborho neighborhood-creating, public space nate uurnatures. the rooftop would fall on jcdecaux, so we would have to make sure that it works. the ground level vegetation would fall to a c.d.b. we would not set it up so it would be anybody else's responsibility. >> commissioner woolford: i wanted to follow up on a couple of things then. commissioner pearlman, we had

the same questions and concerns. the city has done a beautiful job with medians on cesar chavez and a year to 18 months later, they're wretched looking. so we urged caution and were promised that it would be maintenance examples and so we'll see. when you came to us last week, the example of the kiosk that we were looking at was 02.c. is that correct? i would endorse that version and not endorse the only two, which are more conventional, triangular shapes, with radiused corners. 02.c feels in keeping with the spirit of the gently inflated farm -- form that the toilets

were. and that's what commissioner wolfram was alluding to, i believe. >> commissioner keehn: first of all, wasn't to thank jcdecaux for being so responsive to our committee and echo commissioner pearlman's comments and to note that both, i think, of our committees share concern around history and so i appreciate your comments around that. market street will be, unfortunately, in my opinion, revamped and we'll lose these beautiful, brick sidewalks. unfortunate, but that's the case. and then lastly in regards to the greenery on the top, i feel if it's a sculptural element, mixing the two doesn't work. it's a sculptural element. it should be beautiful and clean

and the green to me -- i like the concept, but when i look at it visually, it looks like someone's head having had their hair -- [laughter] has a little hair job there. i appreciate the work that you've done on this. so thank you. >> commissioner matsuda: i had a question for the public works representative. this is my first time seeing it because i'm not part of the a.r.c. and i also wanted to follow up on what mr. hayes said in public comment about perhaps refurnishment and not replacement. was that considered at all? >> it hasn't been. the toilets have been on the street for 22, 23 years. and they're -- i'm thrilled to hear that you have never seen graffiti on them and that

they're always looking fresh. that's to the credit of jcdecaux and i do want to commend them in terms of maintenance and deep understanding of what it takes to live on the streets for 22 years, but they're hurting. they kind of can't live past that. the interior mechanism is also old. so there was never really a consideration that we would reuse them because of the interior functioning or the lifetime of materiality. >> chairman stryker: thank you. first of all, i would like to echo my colleagues in saying how much i appreciate the new design and for the designers and also for decaux and your effort to make a strong, enduring design, both for maintenance and

aesthetics is very important and impressive. there's a couple of things that i wanted to talk about. i'm a landscape architect, so i will comment mostly on the plants, but i have one quick, little suggestion or question. have you considered for the kiosks putting in cell phone chargers? that might be something to consider. lots of people need that when they're walking around the street, a quick, little thought. >> francois with jcdecaux. yes, we have considered that. it's part of the discussion, especially on the kiosk, where you can have an interactive panel, so you can have a panel and you can have a printed map with information about the neighborhood and directions and a screen like an ipad and it's possible to add a u.s.b. port.

we've done it before. we don't want to create negative space. we want people to charge their phone. we've don't want people to camp. [laughter] so what we see -- it's something that can be done because it's fairly easy to install and remove. so maybe some locations it's a very smart idea and others maybe we have to wait a little bit, but it's one thing that you can do. you can remove it. you can come back again. so it's part of the smart elements that can be added to the program. >> commissioner matsuda: thank you. and i want to make a few comments about the planting -->> chairman stryker: it's an interesting idea, but i share some of my colleagues' concerns about that. we're talking about a pure sculptural form and then adding something on the top that to me maybe doesn't work well.

i think that the choice of plants is absolutely critical. the plants have character and how does that character work with the sculptural form? that needs to be discussed. the idea of grasses is in contrast to the form itself. do you want that contrast? i really don't quite understand your concept for why it's there. and you can address that in a moment, if you would like. the height of the form that you have chosen, if it's determined by the plantings, soil basin that's put inside, i think you need to make a very careful decision about what the plant is, because the root depth is different for different plants. if you do put planting in there, and we can talk about that, it seems to need to be uniform and neat and need very minimal

maintenance. to me, that means probably succulents, that tend to be roof plants, very successful rooftop plants. but i would consider not having them at all as an alternativalt. so those are my comments. if you would like to talk about your concept, i would love to hear it. >> sure. bill cates, smith group. thanks for the comments. in the design competition, keep in mind, it's an ideas competition, we embraced the idea of the relationship between the toilet and the planting. and our big -- the initial concept was to call them toiletries. the water from your handwashing would water the trees and then flush the toilet. it was a loop, and, sure, dreaming a bit.

we know it's done in different ways in different places in different architectural settings. and we wanted to tell a story about water and it may happen on some and not others. we wanted to be able to tell a story and could that whole relationship between plant and water and what's happening in there attract more people? and could there be plaques and something on the kiosk for them to go story to the other to hear the full story. that was the genesis of the concept of the relationship between the landscape and the architecture. whether the reality, the financial, maintenance, adjusts that, fully understood and the initial concept was that the planting would be different in each location. it was specific to the climate, to the depths of that space behind that that commissioner wolfram was talking about.

going to the depth of allowing the different things to happen there. i think all the comments are reality and we'll take that to heart, to give you the genesis of it. that's where it was. >> commissioner wolfram: i would throw in one thing about the planting that i think is appealing, is a lot of the toilets will be moved from above. on market street, a lot of people will be looking down on them. to me, the planting idea has an appeal because you will see it from above and i actually -- i kind of like the contrast. it's like seeing a beautiful plant in an elegant pot. the two go together. commissioner black? >> commissioner black: first, i want to, again, like everyone else, congratulations decaux

staff and the creative working together and thinking. so congratulations. given that our purview is limited to the relationship of the design, our purview on this side of the table, to historic districts, san francisco has so many buildings and sites with superior design, old and new. it's important that we do the same with the street furniture and functional characteristics. the design needs to be really, really good. and i understand the concept behind the current kiosks and toilets. they're very handsome. they were very well designed, but i thought they were fraudulent from an historic

standpoint. and i -- i know that the public -- they were well received by the public and they were beautifully designed. true, false historicism at every turn, in my opinion. i strongly endorse the concept of a modern design. it is really good design that fits our city full of good design. that's the goal here. i would encourage the design, which i think is well-conceived, to take it to the next level. i would like to see more interaction, interactive characteristics. i can see opportunities where, for example, the landscape budget is used toward preparing

exhibits of art, local artists, school projects. i would like to see a lot of that. this is a tech city in the tech part of the world. we need to make the best of that in my opinion. i like the simplicity. i think you've done a wonderful job on creating the maintenance and the kit parts or whatever it's called. i have the same concerns about the landscaping. i had not thought about looking at it from above. so i respect that concept. i think the landscaping is the least important part of these. the kiosks and the toilets themselves are the most