francisco public works. i wanted to address your question around the vegetation. when we -- the first go-around with the competition, a major part of the design was the tree on the roof and it was a wow factor. and i think it's -- it was an interesting conversation with the jury that people were wowed by it, but they were like, it can't be built. we can't do this. what we heard is that theres with a real interesting connection and it was a sculptural, modern object. and the way we want to pursue it, because it's really not -- jcdecaux will say it's not feasible to put a tree on the roof. lots of reasons why a tree on the roof can't work, but we have talked about using vegetation in

certain locations. when smith group presented what the toilets may look like. we may do that in a few locations, so that there is a connection between vegetation and the sculptural objects, so two or three. then with the benches around it, it may happen in areas that have c.b.d.s, like cart row and market. they would be interested in that, because they see their toilet and the kiosk as neighborho neighborho neighborhood-creating, public space nate uurnatures. the rooftop would fall on jcdecaux, so we would have to make sure that it works. the ground level vegetation would fall to a c.d.b.

we would not set it up so it would be anybody else's responsibility. >> commissioner woolford: i wanted to follow up on a couple of things then. commissioner pearlman, we had the same questions and concerns. the city has done a beautiful job with medians on cesar chavez and a year to 18 months later, they're wretched looking. so we urged caution and were promised that it would be maintenance examples and so we'll see. when you came to us last week, the example of the kiosk that we were looking at was 02.c. is that correct? i would endorse that version and not endorse the only two, which are more conventional,

triangular shapes, with radiused corners. 02.c feels in keeping with the spirit of the gently inflated farm -- form that the toilets were. and that's what commissioner wolfram was alluding to, i believe. >> commissioner keehn: first of all, wasn't to thank jcdecaux for being so responsive to our committee and echo commissioner pearlman's comments and to note that both, i think, of our committees share concern around history and so i appreciate your comments around that. market street will be, unfortunately, in my opinion, revamped and we'll lose these beautiful, brick sidewalks. unfortunate, but that's the case.

and then lastly in regards to the greenery on the top, i feel if it's a sculptural element, mixing the two doesn't work. it's a sculptural element. it should be beautiful and clean and the green to me -- i like the concept, but when i look at it visually, it looks like someone's head having had their hair -- [laughter] has a little hair job there. i appreciate the work that you've done on this. so thank you. >> commissioner matsuda: i had a question for the public works representative. this is my first time seeing it because i'm not part of the a.r.c. and i also wanted to follow up on what mr. hayes said in public comment about perhaps

refurnishment and not replacement. was that considered at all? >> it hasn't been. the toilets have been on the street for 22, 23 years. and they're -- i'm thrilled to hear that you have never seen graffiti on them and that they're always looking fresh. that's to the credit of jcdecaux and i do want to commend them in terms of maintenance and deep understanding of what it takes to live on the streets for 22 years, but they're hurting. they kind of can't live past that. the interior mechanism is also old. so there was never really a consideration that we would reuse them because of the interior functioning or the lifetime of materiality. >> chairman stryker: thank you.

first of all, i would like to echo my colleagues in saying how much i appreciate the new design and for the designers and also for decaux and your effort to make a strong, enduring design, both for maintenance and aesthetics is very important and impressive. there's a couple of things that i wanted to talk about. i'm a landscape architect, so i will comment mostly on the plants, but i have one quick, little suggestion or question. have you considered for the kiosks putting in cell phone chargers? that might be something to consider. lots of people need that when they're walking around the street, a quick, little thought. >> francois with jcdecaux. yes, we have considered that. it's part of the discussion, especially on the kiosk, where you can have an interactive panel, so you can have a panel and you can have a printed map

with information about the neighborhood and directions and a screen like an ipad and it's possible to add a u.s.b. port. we've done it before. we don't want to create negative space. we want people to charge their phone. we've don't want people to camp. [laughter] so what we see -- it's something that can be done because it's fairly easy to install and remove. so maybe some locations it's a very smart idea and others maybe we have to wait a little bit, but it's one thing that you can do. you can remove it. you can come back again. so it's part of the smart elements that can be added to the program. >> commissioner matsuda: thank you. and i want to make a few

comments about the planting -->> chairman stryker: it's an interesting idea, but i share some of my colleagues' concerns about that. we're talking about a pure sculptural form and then adding something on the top that to me maybe doesn't work well. i think that the choice of plants is absolutely critical. the plants have character and how does that character work with the sculptural form? that needs to be discussed. the idea of grasses is in contrast to the form itself. do you want that contrast? i really don't quite understand your concept for why it's there. and you can address that in a moment, if you would like. the height of the form that you have chosen, if it's determined by the plantings, soil basin that's put inside, i think you need to make a very careful decision about what the plant

is, because the root depth is different for different plants. if you do put planting in there, and we can talk about that, it seems to need to be uniform and neat and need very minimal maintenance. to me, that means probably succulents, that tend to be roof plants, very successful rooftop plants. but i would consider not having them at all as an alternativalt. so those are my comments. if you would like to talk about your concept, i would love to hear it. >> sure. bill cates, smith group. thanks for the comments. in the design competition, keep in mind, it's an ideas competition, we embraced the idea of the relationship between the toilet and the planting. and our big -- the initial concept was to call them

toiletries. the water from your handwashing would water the trees and then flush the toilet. it was a loop, and, sure, dreaming a bit. we know it's done in different ways in different places in different architectural settings. and we wanted to tell a story about water and it may happen on some and not others. we wanted to be able to tell a story and could that whole relationship between plant and water and what's happening in there attract more people? and could there be plaques and something on the kiosk for them to go story to the other to hear the full story. that was the genesis of the concept of the relationship between the landscape and the architecture. whether the reality, the financial, maintenance, adjusts

that, fully understood and the initial concept was that the planting would be different in each location. it was specific to the climate, to the depths of that space behind that that commissioner wolfram was talking about. going to the depth of allowing the different things to happen there. i think all the comments are reality and we'll take that to heart, to give you the genesis of it. that's where it was. >> commissioner wolfram: i would throw in one thing about the planting that i think is appealing, is a lot of the toilets will be moved from above. on market street, a lot of people will be looking down on them. to me, the planting idea has an appeal because you will see it from above and i actually -- i kind of like the contrast. it's like seeing a beautiful plant in an elegant pot.

the two go together. commissioner black? >> commissioner black: first, i want to, again, like everyone else, congratulations decaux staff and the creative working together and thinking. so congratulations. given that our purview is limited to the relationship of the design, our purview on this side of the table, to historic districts, san francisco has so many buildings and sites with superior design, old and new. it's important that we do the same with the street furniture and functional characteristics. the design needs to be really, really good. and i understand the concept

behind the current kiosks and toilets. they're very handsome. they were very well designed, but i thought they were fraudulent from an historic standpoint. and i -- i know that the public -- they were well received by the public and they were beautifully designed. true, false historicism at every turn, in my opinion. i strongly endorse the concept of a modern design. it is really good design that fits our city full of good design. that's the goal here. i would encourage the design, which i think is well-conceived, to take it to the next level.

i would like to see more interaction, interactive characteristics. i can see opportunities where, for example, the landscape budget is used toward preparing exhibits of art, local artists, school projects. i would like to see a lot of that. this is a tech city in the tech part of the world. we need to make the best of that in my opinion. i like the simplicity. i think you've done a wonderful job on creating the maintenance and the kit parts or whatever it's called. i have the same concerns about the landscaping. i had not thought about looking

at it from above. so i respect that concept. i think the landscaping is the least important part of these. the kiosks and the toilets themselves are the most important. what will matter tremendously here, the materials. and i'm very worried about the scratch-resistance because i think that's the form of graffiti that will be the hardest to maintain. without seeing a materials board, it's hard to comment on that, but it will be critical. one final comment. i'm sure there's an historic district reason for this, but on the kiosks, i prefer the rounded corners. i think they're superior, if you

can make that work. >> commissioner wolfram: thank you. >> i just wanted to note that part of the old, historic -- the old design of the kiosks, one of the generous contributions that jcdecaux had partnered with the arts commission has been providing resources to support the display of the related exhibition materials or promotional materials, i should say, so we've had the benefit of being able to showcase art organizations and artists and we're in conversation to see how we can continue that in this arrangement. >> commissioner wolfram: thank you. >> commissioner hyland: i have a couple of questions and then some comments. i don't know who would best be to respond to them, but where will the double toilets go? i'm assuming that the historic districts, which is the areas that we'd be most concerned, or

the higher traffic areas and would need the double toilets? >> beth rubenstein, san francisco public works. actually want to respond to the interactivity, but first about the double toilets. we're looking at up to 12 sites. and -- but it has a lot to do with the negotiation of the contract. complexity of the design influences the contract. the sites of interest to you would be civic center plaza, the port is interested in the double toilets, twin peaks is also interested in the double toilets. there are other ones. u.n. plaza. so u.n. plaza and civic center

plaza that would be under your jurisdiction. i don't think any of the others. >> commissioner hyland: not coit tower or washington park? >> no, definitely not. >> commissioner hyland: and on twin peaks, how would access be? >> right now, there are two toilets up there. >> commissioner hyland: there are? >> yes. two single-stall toilets. so there's an idea to put two double toilets up there. likewise, two adjacent toilets on jefferson near fisherman's wharf. it's just the number of flushes. it's incredible. there are 800,000 flushes, so tows are in high-traffic youras. and just to respond to the question about interactivity, which we believe is important. of the 114 kiosks, i believe that 69 of them are newsstand

kiosks. when the contract was written, it was written in a way that only media outlets could activate those. so we've activated them -- there's an artist that has activated down at the embarcadero plaza and she can do that because she's kind of a media outlet. otherwise, we've had to keep them closed, except for pop-up events. with the new contract, of the 114, we'll replace 20 with micro business kiosks that function kind of like the newsstand, but the contract is written that it could have multiple things. for cast rove -- castro and market, they would want a tourist information stand. there could be a coffee stand. we had bike repair. so something like that.

and then to director keehn's point, the architect talked about the three-sidedness of it. two of the three panels are general advertising and those are the panels that face market street. it's been programmed by the arts commission, which our intention is that that would continue and that's the side -- that's really important to us and that's an important benefit and that faces the sidewalk, too. >> commissioner keehn: on the foundations, it was mentioned that the round foundations would have a rectangular piece over them. what about the foundations for the toilets? will they be replaced? what will happen with the scar where the old foundation is? that will be a visible remnant.

>> francois, jcdecaux. for the public toilets, the foundation is 18 inches below grade. when you remove the toilet and put on the new one, you will not see it. >> commissioner keehn: they're not the same footprint, though? >> no. once we have the final design, we know that we will have to do some seismic analysis to get it approved, but they're larger. >> commissioner keehn: maybe there is something that could be addressed at the base that would not make it look like a -- something that wasn't thoughtful. the scars. that's something to think about. i do have some comments. what's interesting is over the years, the interpretation of

standard 9 kind of swings back and forth and the notion of historic settings keeping awe yet differentiated. i've never personally liked the current toilets. i think they're very parisian or whatever i consider are parisian. and when i think about paris, i think of all the evolution of design and the metro stations and how they're different. our toilets are art deco, kind of fake parisian something. i don't know. that's my personal opinion. i do think that having a sculptural element can be very successful and we may be in a period of time when we're swinging more into the contemporary design than in the more keeping, in keeping with the historic. i think of the pyramid at the louvre. and when it was first built, is

with there when we were building it for school, but i didn't like it, not that i didn't like the form or the solution, but the fact that the designer said it would be transparent and we knew it would not. it was a glass box that reflected everything. so on this, i think one of the challenges -- i'm on the architectural review committee as well. and one of the concerns that i had when we had the initial toasters, buses, whatever, linear forms, is that they would be more massive than what is current. this is addresses that in a good way. i think the design that we have allows it to be everywhere. there's a cohesion and it will fit within the historic districts, so they don't necessarily different. the other comments that have

been made, i can run through and agree with. i do prefer on the kiosk, the pillowed version. i think if we can get a more pronounced web in here, i would -- it seems like it was more pronounced. and i agree with commissioner wolfram, with the view from above. if we don't have green roofs, especially on market street, that surface needs to be treated so it doesn't look like a mechanical skylight well. so that would be important. and lastly, keeping it simple, keeping it to a sculptural form. and not mucking it up with amenities around ground floor benches.

i think you are complicating the solution. good job. >> commissioner wolfram: thank you. any comments on this side? okay. so -- any comments on this side? >> commissioner johnck: i want to add to the discussion about the standard 9 and the relationship to our mission here and i do think that the design and, of course, our photo here, when i first saw it without thinking about anything else i did like it, i said, this works for our standard 9 interpretation. and being more modern in contrast. so i generally like that approach. i did want to say to echo more about the public interpretation or interactivity of the toilets

and the kiosk. i see there is staff from the port here. when we get to one of the kiosks and the toilets and there are maps there and i point out historic sites and point out to where we're standing. and i think i would like to see how a new form, new shape looks like with the panels on them. for the sponsorship of cultural events or add ver use itting information. but the historic interpretation, whether it's a map or a marker or something, talked a lot about doing more with our plaque program for historic landmarks.

so how these amenities, furnishings fit into the public interpretation with the panels on the side. i would like to see more pictures of that. it could work and i would like some more details about how our two commissions work together on the programming for that. >> commissioner hylan >> commissioner hyland: i do but -- >> commissioner pearlman: i thought it was interesting to hear about the different plants on the different kiosks and i started to imagine like boston the freedom trail. we have the toilet trail, going from one to another. [laughter] that bothered me. the idea of looking down on these, there's another something

that could be paid attention to. the idea that you walk in there and it's lit, but not viewed, something could solve that. i want to echo what commissioner johnck said. the way-finding in our city is not very good in general. having been to many european cities, as well as american cities that do it better than we do. in terms of having description of the area where you are or other signs that describe historical events that might have happened in that location, etc. this is a great opportunity that offers, in place where's it's not right up against the curb, where you might be on the embarcadero where you could have the operation manual next to the

door but on the opposite side, also something that then has the map and information and something about that location. i think would be really, really beneficial and a great amenity to add to that. if you are 18 inches away from the curb, you don't want to put it there. otherwise, i think it would be a great addition to these. >> commissioner wolfram: yeah. where you are on the toilet trail. [laughter] >> commissioner pearlman: right. and is that grass or lavender on the roof? >> commissioner hyland: real quick as a follow-up to commissioner johnck and commissioner pearlman, on the interactive displays. we've been talking to project sponsors, ocean wide, is it? they will have some interactive interpretive kiosks based on

what was lost in that area. we've also talked to the various departments with the cultural heritage assets committee and having an ability to tie in and i think the cultural center is under the commission's purview, right? a lot of the oral histories and a lot of the cultural, intangible, cultural assets, that were expanded by the cultural centers, having access to the information. i don't want to expand the scope of their contract, but it's the archivist at the library. there's an immense amount of information that's digitally available and having that as somehow incorporated into wherever we can get it incorporated so they can be connected and accessed would be good. >> beth rubenstein, public works. i forgot to mention, thank you, that there are three types of kiosks.

one is a standard advertising kiosks with three panels. the second is micro-business. and the third is interactivity one. that would have an awning and have a panel for interactivity. it's exactly to your point. it would probably be digital, map, way-finding, history of the site. and we're really excited period tha -- about that. and i've been talking to community groups about seeing the kiosk as an amenity. it's good to know that you have the partners and we've reach out when it's time to figure out who is doing that. >> commissioner wolfram: when thing i've been thinking about that is an interesting precedent for us on this commission is the b.r.t. and the fact that in that location at civic center location, theres with a light

standard that we approved and the city wanted to do a historic fixture, but one that looks quasi-historic. when you get out of the district, you go to the fake historic ones. so it's a little piece of architecture in the historic center. >> commissioner hyland: we came up with a cleaner, elegant, modern station, in the midst of the civic station and worked with d.p.w. >> commissioner wolfram:

interesting, would we approve the toilets on the streets today? probably not. i want to congratulate the team on all the work they've done, impressive materials. i personally have plants that are an interesting idea and i can understand the concerns that others have expressed. i like the development of the toilet. i think the kiosks themselves still need further development. i want to be sure they have a relationship to the toilets as well. that there is continuity between those. that they don't diverge too much. i want to congratulate you on your great work to date. >> commissioner hyland: i don't know if staff is here to answer this, but as it progresses and the c of a is applied for, the locations within the historic district will come back before

us. >> correct. >> commissioner wolfram: because it's a prototype toilet, a sippingle toilet will be approved. my understanding is that jcdecaux doesn't want to do different toilet structures for historic and other locations. >> correct. we'll come back for certificate of appropriateness for the locations in landmark districts and then individual landmarks. that's coit tower, washington square park. and then come back as a permit to alter for the conversation districts, but one hearing tentatively scheduled for august 15. >> commissioner wolfram: great. that's soon. a lot of work it do. are there any other comments from any of the commissioners? >> chairman stryker: i would like to say to everyone how important it is and how grateful

i am that we're meeting together. i think it's helpful to us to learn from each other and to hear each other's comments and what our concerns are and i think that's very useful not only for us, but for the public and certainly for the designers and helping them expedite their projects, which is always thankful for that and look forward to doing it again. >> commissioner wolfram: and with all the work planned for the civic center, we'll be doing that. [laughter] yes, i want to thank the arts commission members for being here as well. i think it's a really great process for us to be here at the same time, not batting teams back and forth, but being able to have consensus here as well. with that, the hearing is adjourned. not quite adjourned. >> to summarize, in regards to

relationship with the surroundings, we find the designs to be compatible due to the differentiation from the historic districts. there way-finding, keeping in mind that it doesn't take away from the sculptural of the structures. you encourage the project sponsor to work a little further on a rounded form, whether it's the pronounced form and the kiosk. you sway away from the vegetation on the roof, but would like the roof to be a treated surface because of visibility from other structures. in regards to the material and colors, you would like to see a material sample and like the project sponsor to keep in mind the reflective quality and the

shininess of the materials. and then based on a timely response to the comments, i wanted to go over the project is tentatively scheduled it come back august 15. you will hear for the certificate of appropriateness. the comments we provided to the arts commission. on august 20, the project will be presented to the civic design committee. and that's for phase 2 and phase 3. staff requests that any design review commit question and arts commission comments be forwarded to planning staff for informational purposes. >> one correction. full arts commission is not meeting in september. so the next meeting after august

will be october 1. >> thank you. >> commissioner wolfram: everybody concur? >> i would say the green roof -- there's a mixed response. not quite half and half. >> thank you, commissioners. >> commissioner wolfram: with that, our hearing is adjourned. adjourned. >> shop & dine in the 49 promotes local businesses and

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