primitive tools, like commissioner falzone said, to measure the levels of government. i would appreciate it if you would work with us. i think commissioner tan, the whoest true thing -- i could think speak for myself. i want to be able to see you open to 6:00 a.m. seven days a week. but we can't. we can't, and the idea that we're treating you unfairly or differently, it's just not true. we're using the exact same tools that we have for everybody else. that's just my comment. so the idea that we could just work a little more in concert is, i think, the way out of this. i do want to move this along a little bit. i don't think there's any purpose in belaboring the point. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> so we did have a number of conditions that were suggested

by the staff, and i don't know if we want to make a motion to -- i don't know if we want to discuss them first or if anybody has comments or if we want to then move toward a motion. >> and i want to say, i appreciate the conditions that staff have put forward, and i think, you know, they do -- will help us do a good job of having more objective information of when the club is open and when it's closed and when it's staying late. i think miss milano was fine with all of them except the sound limiter one. i mean, i appreciate that what she said was she wants to figure out how to operate in compliance without using a limiter, but i feel like that's what hasn't happened so far is that she hasn't been able to operate in compliance without the use of a limiter.

so i'd like to move forward with adding all of these conditions. >> i have one thought about that, and there is an outstanding citation that's being appealed. if we want to set that specific condition aside, and maybe reexamine it after the results of the appeal. >> you talking about the limiter? >> yeah, because that was an above db violation specifically, and it was a citation specifically, and it is being appealed, and i really specifically to not want to make any decisions tonight on a decision that's making its way through the appeal process. but if we were to calendar a conversation about that specific item pending the appeal, that would be -- i'd be open to that. >> if we calendar an item, the permittee has to come back, and then, we kind of rehash all this again. >> so maybe there's a more creative way -- >> well, i think definitely respect the idea that there is an appeal.

i don't actually know the full content of the appeal, but i imagine that it's questioning the actual number decibel limit and how we measure that? i don't know -- is that -- >> so we haven't received miss milano's submission yet because it's due on friday. it is very much pending -- in terms of the current status, in terms of my prehearing statement, it's in the director's report. so the appeal is specifically around the citation that we gave on october 13 when she was peaking around 123.7, which is above her db limit of 116. but since i haven't received her response yet, i don't know what her arguments are. >> sure. i think it's fair to talk about a limiter because we're not talking about the decibel level, we're not talking about how we measure that -- but we're not talking about our own equipment. i think she's going to make an

argument that our equipment sucks. what she's going to do is say she can get a manager to regulate that. so, you know, i don't have a strong feeling that we have to discuss this today, and i'm happy to defer to the chair. i'm just worried it would reopen this whole thing. >> the only thing is if her ticket's being appealed, what does it have to do with the limiter? >> well, the idea is the limiter, we don't want them going over the db level, and one of the issues, they were cited for going over the db level. >> mr. president, if i can make a suggestion, i think what we're having to lock imposing the limiter is why. if we're imposing it for the totality of what's been playing out, then i think we're on solid ground. and i think it gets tricky if

we start second guessing an appeal because truthfully, it's just that. if we start looking at it from strictly a legal perspective, it will play out its own course. what we're talking about today is imposing on the totality of the circumstances, not because there's a citation. >> i mean -- >> or at least that's what i'm suggesting that we look at. >> correct me if i am wrong, but there are -- no, this is not -- we're discussing amongst ourselves. the limiter only dampens the sounds when you go over the decibel level -- >> but it's clumsy. >> yeah. if you go over, it's going to sound terrible, and everybody's going to know it. i remember back in the day when the police required a limiter on our systems. >> hoorah. >> i don't know what happened, but, you know, and if that's the only way to kind of keep us from coming back here all the

time, i think, you know, until they can prove otherwise -- this takes a lot of time and effort on everyone's part. i think set it at the level that you set, and it's done. and if it goes over, it's because they did it. i hate -- i'm industry, i feel for you. but it happened at my place all the time, but at least i didn't get complaints and calls in the middle of the night. >> let me ask a -- on a positive note, in the event we did impose a limiter, and maybe executive director, this is directed to you, and i thithin significantly improve, can they come back to us? is there a limit -- can they come back in a year? can they come back to any point? >> they can come back at any time, and then, it goes to president bleiman. >> and then, he'll determine if

he's going to put it on calendar. okay. >> just for clarification's sake, on this staff recommendations document, i did put an either-or for the -- you're talking about setting -- or looking at ambient levels, essentially, for the p.o.e. and e.h.p. i gave an option for just the e.c. staff, and i gave an option where they would hire a third-party consultant, and they would do it in concert with them. i do think you should ask the permit holder. >> can we say either-or? here depending the decision of the permit holder? >> yeah, you can, or you can invite her up and ask. >> i don't know, if gina, would you like, miss milano would you say, if we did -- i know you agreed to ambient sound levels at a particular time of night,

would you be comfortable with our people, would you prefer a third-pert alternate kent? >> i think i would prefer my people given my history with the commission. >> okay. >> thank you. >> then i would like to make a motion that we add the following conditions to the after-hours permit for halcyon. first one is that the permit holder shall provide a calendar of events that will extend hours of entertainment past 4:00 a.m. one week in advance to the president of the entertainment commission, concerned neighbors, and sfpd central station. second, the club shall keep a nightly recording time by a picture with a date and time stamp. condition number three, permit

holder shall keep a nightly record of the decibel level inside the permitted establishment from start to finish of all hosted entertainment. a host of the entertainment log may be made available if entertainment commission staff is unavailable to address them in real-time. the next condition is that the permit holder shall hire a sound consultant to conduct a sound study from 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. on a night when halcyon is operating past 4:00 a.m. to gather ambient sound levels and during the extended time perioded. entertainment staff shall be on-site during the study. the sound consultant shall conduct new sound tests in concert with entertainment commission staff for new -- potentially new place of entertainment and extended

hours permit sound limits based on the study of ambient sound. and then, the last two that, that the permit holder shall use a sound limiter at all times, and permit holder shall have staff on hand at all times while using equipment that understands sound equipment and knows how to adjust sound equipment at any time. >> if i could just offer a friendly amendment, i think on condition number three, staff suggested second-to-last sentence, if there are complaints, i'd prefer to strike that and just have us the ability -- >> yes. >> that's it. >> that's accepted by me. >> thank you. >> commissioners, i'd like to make a clarifying point. condition four, entertainment commission staff shall conduct a sound study, if we're trying to establish ambient, we should

be conducting a study while halcyon and all other clubs in the vicinity are not operating if that's the goal of that condition is to establish ambient. >> wait. that's not clear. what do you mean? so when halcyon is operating solely past 2:00 a.m.? >> the definition of ambient in the code states that the source at issue should not be operating and other sources in the vicinity should not be operating. >> so ambient is the sound when it is not in operation. >> i honestly don't think that that's a workable piece of code honestly just because the ambient sound levels that we'd be gathering during the p.o.e. period, it's going to be very challenging to do that at a point some other clubs are not operating. this has been going ongoing issue for 11th street in

particular, that their ambient is potentially based on other clubs being active while we do those readings. >> in my opinion, and based on the ambient sound testing in a i performed previously, i was -- that i performed previously, i was able to pick a time just past 2:00 where all the clubs in the vicinity within in operation. >> so it's not an anomaly, so to speak, there are times when they are just operating. >> okay. >> so essentially, the amendment is that we should do this a two-night period from 10:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. when halcyon is not operating. >> other clubs. >> other clubs. >> they're the sole operator. >> so we have an ambient noise level -- i understand what you're saying, sean, but it's

attainable? >> yeah. i think we'll figure out a time when everyone is closed at 2:00, and we would have to have another night where we did a second test to establish a sound level while just halcyon is operating. >> potentially, we can just defer to the code instead of getting in the weeds with this condition. >> okay. >> at a minimum, we've certainly provided a foundation for an argument down the road for their defense. no charge for that, by the way, counselor. >> one other friendly amendment, commissioner thomas, is just the fact that you said these are extended hours to their premises permit only? and i think the limiter affects the place of entertainment, so does the staff person on-site, so does the sound test. you may want to apply these to both permits. >> thank you very much for that

clarification. yes, i did intend for this to apply both to their place of operation permit and their extended hours premises. >> and finally, did you want to note when these conditions should go into effect? is it immediately or do you want to set a date for this? >> in particular, we should set a time frame for the sound consultant study since that's the most time specific. >> yeah. for that one, i think it's okay to say shall. >> right. >> i think they can take effect immediately, but then, they're going to have to coordinate -- >> right. >> the limiter is really what i'm referring to. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> so the conditions can take effect immediately. none theless, they're going to have to coordinate the testing because the condition doesn't state actually -- i mean, if we're really going to get into the weeds. >> i think the condition doesn't state when they have to do it. >> i think we can give them 30

days to get their acts together with it. i think by february 1 would be reasonable. >> by february 1. okay. >> and can i clarify, so that first additional condition about the calendar events, is that going to replace or are we striking how we stated it on the actual conditions, just to be clear? there's two conditions. one set permit holder shall provide a calendar of events one month in event to the commission president, concerned neighbors -- this is the old current condition, and the new one. so -- >> yes. so we are replacing those permit conditions with this new permit condition.

>> does anyone happen to know exactly when they're going to be open till 6:00, right? and if they're not open till 6:00, whatever reason, they contact the director and say -- because they only get 12 -- >> no. as far as i heard from the attorney, they're going to give it a month in advance, at least 30 days in advance. so by december 31st, we'll know what's happening in february . >> right. and there's no more like, oh, there's a lot of people here, let's keep it open. that eliminates that 100%. >> right. which is consistent with how every other club in the city operates. >> i'll second that motion. >> thank you. >> no. we're going to vote on this, and then, you can follow up with the commission staff for implementation of it.

we already did public comment. we should do public comment on this, as well, am i correct? >> you can. >> we'll do two minutes of public comment on this specific item. it has to be -- not the representatives of the venue. seeing none, public comment is closed. [ gavel ] [roll call] >> all right. the conditions have been amended. what's the proper term for this? >> i don't know. >> amended. >> the amended commission -- >> staff considerations and recommendations have been amended. all right. thank you very much. moving onto the last and almost final item, i'd like to get through this one as quickly as possible, but we have to cover it tonight kbauz the staff and a small group of -- because the staff and a small group of us

spent hundreds of hours adjusting the good neighbor policy, and maybe, director weiland, you can very quickly or inspector burke tell us what the impetus was behind this and what that was going to solve, but i'm going to assume that we've all read this already. >> that is the hope, yes. we hope that you all did your homework. i did hear back from commissioner tan today and worked to incorporate some of his changes after speaking with the city attorney. so essentially, our good neighbor policy is very outdated. i'm not exactly sure even the last time it was changed. i'm assuming that it was probably worked on by terrence allen and audrey joseph and a former iteration of the entertainment commission, and they did a fabulous job of putting this together, and the

police department, but over the last 15 years in enforcing venues and looking at good neighbor policy conditions as it is a condition of every permit, some of the previous conditions were unenforceable, didn't give our inspectors the teeth essentially needed in the field to be able to do their job and bring folks into compliant r compliance. some of them -- into clie compliance. so we tried to get really specific here. i can certainly go through each and every one of those conditions, although i don't think president bleiman would like me to do that. >> i think we all had a chance to read over them. >> it sounds like commissioner tan had some suggestions. can we -- >> yeah. i think it's already reflected. >> so it's already in those changes? >> yeah.

it was around trying to have a phone number. it was trying to combine a couple of ideas from the previous good neighbor policy that i thought was getting too vague, so there's just additional language. >> that's number four? >> yeah, number four. >> and then, i do have a couple quick comments that i would just like to share, and if i guys object, i duly accept that. let negame just start with the easier of my comments. permit holder shall maintain records at the premise of current lead certification for all persons working at the premises. my question is are we trying to achieve that all employees are lead trained or on-site? >> yes. >> so we're not asking that everyone is lead trained. that's what you're saying, i'm just trying to get clarification. >> sean burke here. i think our intent was that everyone should be lead trained, and the operator should have proof that everyone

is lead trained. >> i understand. unfortunately, that's not what it says. so i agree with you, and it can be a very quick amendment what we want to do it, but maybe let me get through all my stuff so you guys can chiu on it. my only other comment is regarding number two -- and some of this is just regarding thoughts regarding continuity. my make a comment regarding surrounding neighborhood. i like the word surrounding, but it's not enforceable. i would like to suggest surrounding remain, and then followed by at a minimum of 100 feet as that would be consistent with number zblix. >> -- number six. >> security plan shall be followed for safety of the venue, patrons, and surrounding neighborhood. my only concern is the word surrounding isn't definable. so i was just going to suggest, i like the word, but maybe if

you are -- my fellow commissioners are receptive, i would define by a comma, 100 feet. and that would be consistent with what comes into play on number six. lastly, i totally appreciate that we're addressing staffing levels at 10:00 p.m., but one of our challenge areas is broadway, and i just wanted to bring everyone's attention that we actually have clubs that are opening at 6:00 a.m., and the challenge on broadway is the club's opening at 6:00 a.m., a lot of their customers, they're coming for after-hours clubs, and the police have challenged it at 6:00 in the morning. i didn't have the language. i just wanted to put it on

everyone's radar. so i would -- >> i'm -- personally, i'm ak with adding that as a condition to others when we see fit at 6:00 a.m. >> so i guess the only friendly amendment i would be making is with regard to number two, after the word surrounding, we would just add a comma, at a minimum of 100 feet. and then, number five, that we reword it, in simple terms, that the permit holder shall maintain records and verify that all employees are lead certified versus what we currently have. >> and we had had one discussion ashround that. and i would just say -- i don't mind if their accountant isn't lead certified. >> i grow. i think it's hard to define what a customer service staff is. that's okay. if we can't -- >> i'm comfortable with either.

>> i mean, i just want to -- can -- can we actually do that, and what does it -- you know, is the employee, the janitor who's cleaning after hours or is the -- >> i understand. >> well, that's the president's point. he was trying to say those involved in the service. >> you can totally go above the city attorney's head with that. >> i don't want to do something that's in disagreement with them? i just think that some of these venues may have employees that for whom a lead certification is just not relevant. >> i'm okay on voting on this and -- >> what about those that serve alcohol zm. >> -- alcohol? >> well, there's other people that are involved that don't serve alcohol. bar backs. i'm okay with adding your friendly amendment. i totally trust or deputyized staff to go back to the city

attorney to cleanup that language, and if not, we keep it as it is. >> the whole spirit is to get this document to where it's enforceable. >> well, i think the city attorney will have to tell us how we can specify that. >> okay. >> honestly, they can make recommendations, and we can -- she wouldn't mind, honestly, if we added back in verbiage that said customer service staff as long as we can explain very thoroughly to a permit holder what that means. >> prior to enforce. >> pardon me? what was that? >> prior to enforce. >> i think it lends itself to a lot of conversation on-site. well, this door guy's not customer service. this bar back's not customer service. >> you know, lead training is on-line, and it's not difficult. i'm comfortable with saying if you're in this industry, you get lead trained. >> and hopefully, those dishwashers will advance up to

more important positions. >> one can hope. >> i know i'm not the industry person up here, but i'm wary of adding something that may make it challenging to hire staff including for -- i mean, is this for, like, part-time or fill in? this is an industry where folks can move from job to job, and i don't want to be making it difficumore difficult -- i don't want to make staffing difficult as much as i support the intent behind this? and i think our goal as an industry where everyone is -- >> i see this more as a management issue than a staffing issue. i think the lead training is offered in every language, and if it means a manager has to go above and beyond to get somebody trained and working with them, i'm okay with that. >> it's also an asset for the employee, and i would encourage we take a strong position on training. >> i just -- i think lead training is really important. i also think what we're talking about, is offers an

incredible -- it offers an incredible amount of cover to the venue itself, because everyone involved in the incident -- if everybody involved is lead trained, that's a really good thing for the venue, so we're kind of encouraging the best nature for that. >> i'm just worried, like commissioner thomas says, it's hard enough to find help. >> but to sit down with somebody and do a 30-minute lead training or an hour-long lead training with a manager. >> well, the manager does it. >> well, in the situation where somebody was not lead trained and maybe needed more help in order to get lead trained, that would be on the management in order to help them get lead trained and walk them through it and facilitate it. they don't have to be prelead trained, they just have to be

plead trained. >> it's all eyes and ears. >> great. well, i'm happy to defer to my industry colleagues. >> you don't have to be prelead trained. >> i do have one question. assuming we pass this, are all our permit holders grandfathered into the old good neighbor policy or does this apply to the -- >> so the verbiage on folks' permitted is they must adhere to the good neighbor policy. so this would be adopted now, and we would do an out yaereac campaign. it's hard to reach everybody, so we'll also use our enforcement staff to actually go out in the field and provide copies of the new good neighbor policy to folks. >> great. thank you. >> all right. did we have a motion yet.

>> just one more point of clarification. sorry, inspector burke here. i realize that number two, the first sentence is more of an druktory sentence, saying the -- introductory sentence saying that something is -- >> i think 100 feet is totally fine. i don't think we need to scrutinize it. >> well, i just think that first sentence, maybe we can workshop back in the office with the city attorney as opposed to adopting that exact verbiage. >> well, the only problem, from my experience being here for a very long time, we can't defer things out of our committee and then staff fixes it. if you do that, you're going to have to bring back the fix. >> i do think commissioner falzone's friendly amendment made it clear. what do you think? >> i think the 100 feet is

great. i just need -- i'd like myself and katelyn to have exact verbiage for that sentence. >> i provided it. what i'm saying is it is going to stay the same, except for an surrounding, with a comma, a minimum of 100 feet. >> all right. did we have a motion? i got lost in the -- >> i thought mr. thomas was on top of one at one point. >> i make a motion to approve the good neighbor policy as drafted with commissioner falzone's amendments. >> i'll second it. >> is there any public comment? seeing none, public comment is closed. [roll call]

>> it has been adopted. great work, everyone, and i want to just commend chief inspector -- is that what we're calling you? >> it is now. >> sean burke for bringing this to our attention, and that was really forward thinking and proactive of you, and i think we made a really big difference here with kind of -- with that move, so thank you for that. >> thank you for your help. >> all right. last agenda item is commissioner comments and questions. anybody have anything interesting? >> sichly thank you to the commission and staff for the great holiday party fantastic job, everybody. thank you. >> absolutely. >> i'll second that. >> is there any public comment on commissioner comments and questions? seeing none, public comment is closed, and this meeting is adjourned at 8:33 p.m.

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