unless you have more funding. you're make policy decision ob a short time frame without knowing what the real life of the program is. so i would advocate if no one can tell us what's going to happen, continue on as usual and let the program run its course and run out of money. because anything else will be artificial and will negatively impact some constituency in the program. we'll be true to the people in the program. there's landlords that are expecting they're going get their grant continued. no promises but they are expecting it. there's people already in the program benefiting and probably in anticipation will continue to benefit so let's not let those people down. let's just let it be known the program was popular and used up the funds and there's demand and

the city owes it to the small business community to continue funding it. oth otherwise it's highly subject how you throttle the program. we're not going do anything different tomorrow anyway. >> mark, let me just -- >> go ahead. >> we need to advocate to get some indication if we'll continue funding through the mayor's office and by polling the supervisors. one, a million dollars a year is a very small part of the city's

budget so if i can't muster that, shame on them. they ought to be make some directional -- indicate to us whether they plan to fund this or not. >> my reaction is i agree with you it's a small percentage of the budget so it seems likely it would be surprising if they chose not to continue. so i would advocate that we look at looking to do the work to look at what a sustainable program looks like over the long term. >> i think you're right. >> commissioner: and speaking only for myself, i would like to see a more equitable distribution that tilts more towards the smaller businesses and more towards the newer businesses and not so much towards these business where's the money as a percentage of their revenue is likely to have less impact. so i'd like to see progress in

that direction. >> yeah, and i think perhaps looking at changes to the legislation to throttle back and look at what audience we're serving. i would suggest we are best servi serving microbusinesses to what we consider small businesses and the small businesses of 90 to 100 employees like you say disproportionately gobble up the fund before they can help those most at jeopardy. >> i'd like to see the median f.t.e., full time equivalent employees being the primary beneficiary. then we can start talking about helping larger businesses. >> a study by the budget office in conjunction with some probably bigger policy.

this is our signature program. this is the only thing we have really legislative control over this fund is the one thing this body has at its direction to really help the pocket book of small business. so we need to impress upon the supervisors' and mayor's office, this is the one thing. we're dipping into businesses pockets all day long right and left and this is the one thing we can do to put money back in to businesses pockets and we should lobby for increasing the funding well above $1 million a year to the extent we can prove it's effective at helping small

business. >> commissioner zousounis. >> i'd like to show my support for all the recommendations but forward and if we have to mitigate id -- it should be closer to the median of full time employees. >> and there will always be a baseline commitment of $1 million for the program. that will always be in the budget like the baseline commitment for the budget for the office. to make sure that's clear. >> i don't understand.

>> at least $1 million a year. >> i thought there was a sun set on it? >> no, there's no sun set. we'll reach our committed obligation of over $1 million in '21, '22. but there will always be -- there is a committed baseline funding each year of $1 million. >> that was my question whether the program is funded into perpetuity or only on the horizon you presented today. >> that's why i asked, we need more money to continue to go. what happens is because of the $1 million, our capacity no longer fits because it's so attractive so the million isn't anything so i'm for more money. our obligations will exceed that amount.

>> problem j funded this program into perpetuity? >> a slight correction, yes and no. as long as funding is allocated, then the grant programs gets funded. when it was time to start discussing funding a baseline commitment came out of then mayor lee's office of $1 million each year and i don't think -- at this point there's no indication that is going to change. it's just whether it's more or not. >> i think if we were to board to increase funding it would be good to have a report to back us up. >> you can't do it otherwise.

>> >> a case in funding would be better received to prove we were distributing it in a more equitable manner. >> thank you, rick. have you our recommendations. >> next item, please. >> clerk: assembly bill 161 and staff briefing on the bill and implication to small businesses. >> commissioners, the assembly member team he's submitted this bill which would require business to or customers the ability to receive their receipt via e-mail. initially it was introduced as a

blanket for all business being last week on the 19th there was a slight, some amendments and it's now been changed to any business with revenue over $1 million would need to comply. there's multiple issues. there's many businesses even business are over $1 million that have p.o.s. systems. i think of those businesses that have high number of inventory items where changing their p.o.s. system that is not integrated with e-mail technology that that can be very costly. one hardware store shared theire

theirest -- their estimate is a cost of $100,000 to make that shift to integrate e-mail into the system because it's more than just purchasing a square p.o.s. system which may be a little easier for a very small shop but for a hardware store that has lots of inventory items and their inventory management system. there are broader implications we need to keep in mind for our businesses and to provide feedback and direction. the department of environment -- let me backtrack. so assembly member ting is part of the motivation is environmental in terms of saving trees but then also much of the

receipt paper has p.v.c.s and is toxic. so there is toxic-free p.v.c. paper that is being produced and is out there. i know our department of environment has been look at this and there's interest in a solution that's workable for business to the other element in terms of the bill is there's a california privacy act governor brown signed into law last year. so this down the road could be requiring businesses to offer and collect people's e-mail could conflict with that. so that said, this bill may not move forward in this formation.

there's a potential this bill may not move forward in its current formation at the state level. there's an indication a local supervisor indicated they're interested in carrying it forward if it doesn't move forward at the state. so understanding the privacy issues, the department of environment their recommendation sto have a p.o.s. system does not print receipts unless asked. i'm not a p.o.s. expert but i do know there are still even done at the local level there's still a lot of long-term businesses who are p.o.s. systems from

1990s. >> i do know a lot about p.o.s. systems and not everybody has square. what i have heard from many businesses i don't use square but world pay or something else and don't have that option and to get this option would cost them a lot of money. which at the end of the day is another straw on the camel's back do i want to be in san francisco. the supervisor thinking of this, i hope they're hearing this, be pro-small business. not everyone can afford this. the margins are so thin right now sith -- with some of these businesses something like this would again close up some shops. that's all. commissioner ortiz. >> commissioner: i want to speak both on the local and state

level. i implore people to look at this from a cultural perspective. i'll give it to you at a local level. a restaurant could gross $1 million but maybe the owner take home 30gs. so create new complicated p.o.s. and p.o.s. is point-of-sale. more restaurants the point-of-sale is a cash register with maybe a credit card processor on the side. this would be an extreme burden to a small restaurant even if they gross $1 million even if they're only taking home $30,000 and there's a lot of agricultural forms where there is no internet. this would be an extreme burden, yes, they can grows $1 million worth of produce, but the take home, i remember one of my first businesses i was grossing like

$1.2 million but i was spending $1.21 million. i was broke. i think sometimes people don't understand business. like you said, they never had to make payroll. stop doing this to small businesses. you're breaking our back. >> $1 million in sales does not make you a millionaire. >> that's true. >> commissioner: commissioner riley. >> i agree with commissioner ortiz. the chinese community is a lot of cash register business cash business as well and they have sales at $1 million but don't make $1 million. i'd also like to know what kind of outreach effort they've gone through and whether they've reached out to the small business others, the restaurants and retailers to see what kind of effect this is going to be for the business owners. >> to my knowledge in talking

with alex walker from assembly member ting's office the conversation with the local office is none. >> commissioner: great. >> we're engaging the council of direct merchants to also be involved in terms of conversations with the assembly members office. i think the issue that will happen locally is there is a process and our office doesn't engage with it that often but we do have what's called a state legislative committee that hears state legislation and makes a determination as to whether the city wants to be proactive in making a recommendation for or against or recommendation with modifications like you do. and then have the state

lobbyists go and work sacramento on behalf of the city. so because we have a department with the department of environment that has some interest in seeing this move forward, there's also o.e.w.d. and the office of small business that is very concerned about the implications. and so we are going to have to prepare a presentation and try to -- department of environment wants to work with us but this will eventually come before the state legislative committee. so it's very important for both o.e.w.d. and our office to really receive the feedback and to hear what the implications are going to be so we one, can articulate the implications and then with that information to see if we can potentially come up with some recommendations

that we could either carve out our small businesses or address this in a different way. >> and also, if receipt paper is toxic, why don't we ban the toxic paper instead? >> right. >> commissioner dooley. >> that's what i was going say too is this is too much. why can't we just give a time line to get rid of the thermal paper and have something non-toxic. that would be much less stressful for our small businesses that do that. i know where i work we have to give receipts, that's it and they're all on thermal paper right now. we should just be saying, please, just give ace time line that's realistic to stop using the thermal paper rather than

this whole thing. this is going to damage small businesses. >> i can't tell you how many small businesses i know that don't even take credit cards. it's all cash. >> commissioner laguanas. >> there's been different pronunciations, it's been town listen to. i'll take the opposite side and challenge you guys to consider a different perspective on this. with apologies and full respect for everyone. so first of all, i reached out it ting's office who i've worked with previously on passing legislation last year because you had mentioned stephen some of your concerns at the last meeting because it did sound

alarming to me based on what i was hearing. my friend got back to me and said you're spot on it's easy to hit $1 million and not make a penny. you could even be deeply in the red. i agree with that point as an arbitrary number. she did say that amendments were forthcoming that had an exclusion for cash only businesses for business had no internet service. i think that take that off the plate. speaking to some of these businesses that are the cost of transition would be extraordinary, the $100,000 hardware thing, that sounds awful.

and if the intention of the bill was to force that change i would certainly be opposed to the bill on that principle alone but she made the point the fine is actually capped at $300 annually. so if the cost of transition is truly $100,000, then certainly it makes the most sense to just simply pay the fine if you even get the fine which i think we know there's not going to be investigato investigators fanning out across the entire state. >> that's not necessarily true. >> well, lets stipulate every business, i'm doubleful but let's stipulate every -- doubtful but let's stipulate every business gets it. i viewed this from my perspective -- it seems to me there are certain attributes of

living in modern society. this concept of public goods. they talk about the tragedy of the commons where we all fail to take care of the things around us and that's the right place for government to step in and provide a regulatory role so as to avoid the tragedy of the commons, to avoid losing these public thing. -- things. it does seems the vast majority of us when we get a paper receipt, we don't look at them. they don't really serve any real purpose and what i'm hearing is the only thing the receipts are being generated because people are using the legacy systems. now, i'm persuadable on this issue but it seems to me the harm is not the $100,000 system the harm is the potential $300 fine. i view this as more of a nudge to business and the p.o.s.

manufacturers to start make -- making the move on the right direction on a global level which is reduce the use of these resources. it's a complicated thing where as a small business commission we're heard to protect small business but we're also human beings that have to protect the planet and i come down on the side that i reject the idea that i have to be reflexibly protectionist with everything with regard to small business. sometimes i think it's appropriate to ask our community to say look, we're going to stand up and stand shoulder to shoulder with everybody else because it's the right thing to do. i think the merits of this

legislation, what it's trying to accomplish, it's not trying to punish small business but trying to accomplish something with a higher purpose, a better goal. something i think we'll all have to contend with more and more as time goes by. i would encourage the board as they have considered this to make sure you factor in that side of the equation to. it doesn't sound like there's a vote in front of us at this time. is there a way here we can chart a path to help nudge these p.o.s. systems and these businesses to maybe useless paper and let's keep this in perspective. nobody's asking none -- anybody to take on a $100,000 system for a $300 fine. >> i agree we need to be talking about things in the big picture

manner to a degree but this is just another example of who is paying for the commons and it's disproportionately falling on small businesses in san francisco when it comes to initiates on public health and environmental protection. senator ting and wiener have another piece of legislation they have had zero follow-through on in which the state is sending enforcement agent to retailers to see if they're collecting cans and bottles. there is no cap. $30,000 invoices republic sent from the state of -- being sent the state of california to small retailers. we have the compostable material ban and tie row foam -- s styrofoam and there's litter

reduction fees. we're not looking at the context in the big picture in that sense either and there's no support for transition. i agree, i don't think the city should try to ban amazon stores and our response shouldn't always be to fight the future it should be how do we help the businesses transition into the future and we're not doing that at all. there's no resource for small businesses who don't know who to talk to for an internet provider because in my experience, they don't want to work with the small guys. it's not worth it for them. there's a huge gap in access to how small businesses transition into the future so i think that needs to be integral to these types of legislation for it to work because more enforcement is a big issue for brick and mortar and retailers, we have enforcement non stop and frankly it's like policing.

especially for immigrant retailers it's scary and confusing and a lot of it has to do with environmental issues or legislation. that's my piece. it's important to note for businesses right now in accounting some old school businesses the merchant copies of resets -- receipts are integral to their business. for my dad, we have a giant bag and this is how we do stuff. i want to push him to do quick books and bar coding and all that stuff but it also needs to be paired with resources. >> commissioner dwight. >> commissioner, i agree we should not always defend everything on the basis of whether it has a financial impact on small business because

there's moral imperatives an ethical considerations but i think we have to be careful we don't create laws and say, well, if you don't follow the law, don't worry because the fine is de minimis. it puts law abiding decisions of make an ethical position to follow the law and that's not the democratic principle i want to promote. we pass laws with the expectation people will follow them not to find a way around them by paying fines or paying lawyers to get them out of a jam. it happens all the time for those who can afford it. i too looked at the fine and said, well, that's not very much but you have if provide a pathway for complying with the law and should not implement

laws meant dto be broken. we should keep a bright line on that as well. >> commissioner riley. >> i agree with both mark and commissioner zousounis. we're not diabetes -- we're not against the law behind out shouldn't be mandated whether you can afford it or not. i've gotten receipts online from nord storm and i still get printed receipts from smaller retailers. like you said, we need to have a sympathies way to help the -- a pathway to help the smaller business to comply instead of mandate and then you don't comply, $300 fine. it hurts the small business and

it's frustrating for the small business. we come across small business unfriendly in san francisco if we do that. >> commissioner dooley. >> i agree that we do need to be looking to the future on this with the environmental but to me until it's available and it should be encouraged paper manufacturers get rid of this thermal paper and have something they can provide to all of our businesses that fulfill the same need then i think this is just like we've been saying, there's no nobody to help you with this. i know where i work, i would say 75% of the people want a receipt. so we can't go back to handwriting receipts because we're too busy for that. i feel it's all great but we have to push to get the

non-toxic paper and then do our outreach and say this paper is now available. you'll need to start using this paper as of some date that's not like the next day. and i think that would resolve it. i think this is just a little too much without the consideration of what your small businesses are really able to do. >> i think if they would have done outreach they would have written this differently >> commissioner: commissioner a laguanas. >> commissioner: i remain persuadable on this issue. i've not closed my mind.

work i heard and agree with you. i'm in a highly regulated business myself and understand in deal with regulations and fines for everything under the sun. thing you never heard of or a way to finding out about even if you tried. miriam, i think you have a compelling argument with the challenges of transition for somebody like your father's business who's been operating and doing a storage of paper receipts. irene, i think you made good points as well you did too, kathleen. i'm still of the thought that we have to find a way to provide

that guidance. even if we didn't do the outreach in terms of like a p.o.s. system and it's a supply and demand issue. and kathleen, i hear you, a lot of customers are expecting a receipt in your business. something in your neighborhood or something they can walk out of the store with. i think all of these are important points and remain persuadable i want to properly consider the other half as well

and want to make an argument for the other half of this. >> commissioner zousounis. >> commissioner: this covers the slip behind the check and all that? i know businesses i work with we have a lot of vendors and whether it's beverages or snacks and write a check to the delivery person. >> that would be a wholesale sale and this is for retail sale. >> thas that also carries to catering. a lot of people use note pads. >> if somebody's providing a

quote i think those are valid questions. where does retail begin and end from the read of it it's dealing with retail, proof of purchase. probably looking at p.o.s. technologies and thinking it's a great idea. to commissioner dwight's point there's a trend and they're trending in these technologies but not all businesses are there, want to be there. is this a law that needs to be in place because the trend will go in that direction?

do we encourage newer p.o.s. systems or it's a cash register with a credit card machine, do we try to encourage the financial institution to make their transactions machine read and not automatically printed. those things need to be researched. sometimes they're out there and a did reach out to the director of the small business vancouverment center who works with our small businesses one key point is that we have a lot of small businesses like

commissioner ortiz-cartagena and commissioner riley spoke of because they have the older systems because they don't break down or have to be upgraded every three or four years with a new piece of technology. or every 20 years. do we find the balance and what do we need to do and is there funding for outreach? there are sbdcs that help businesses come toe the future and there's a buffer in providing funding helping the entities that want to transition

being able to have that funding and support because it isn't just the system, it's the whole financial books and allocation. >> commissioner: we need stakeholder input and we need to find out all the things that fall under the parameter of this. >> commissioner: any feedback you have or know of businesses we can talk to that would be helpful. >> commissioner: commissioner riley. >> i want to let commissioner laguanas know we're here. that's the proof of us being here is to provide our input, comments and concerns on behalf of the small businesses so legislators so we're not here to criticize and attack the legislation.

>> commissioner: any questions before we make go to public comment. any members of the public who wish to comment on item number 5. public comment is closed. any other comments before we go to the next item. item closed. >> clerk: item 6, approving of the minutes and there are two corrections i'd like to read into the record. one correction for item 4, commissioner dwight had approved and seconded by commissioner dooley and for item number 12, there's a correction in that commissioner ortiz-cartagena motioned to adjourn and commissioner dwight seconded. >> commissioner: okay. i'm glad we got that straight.

do we have a motion to approve the minutes with the changes? >> i move to approve the minutes. >> commissioner: wait. public comment. do we have any members of the public that would like to make a comment on the meeting minutes from march 22nd, 2019. now do we have a notion? >> i move to approve the draft minutes with the corrections for the minutes. >> second. >> voice vote. all in favor. aye. any nos? >> one absent. >> clerk: motion passes, 2-1 with one absent. >> thank you, next item. >> clerk: update and report on the office of small business and the small business assistance center, department programs, policy and legislative matters,

announcements from the mayor and regarding small business activities. discussion item. >> commissioners, we haven't received new updated numbers on the checklist as of march 15. there's both increases in the number of checklists committed. the vacancy legislation was signed by the mayor march 22. it goes into effect on april 22. so d.b.i. is draft letter to all commercial property owners notifying them of the ordinance and so we'll also include a reminder about the a.b.e. deadlines. that is another point of contact for that. i know we've been forwarding you announcements from the mayor's press office but to make sure in

case you didn't see it, mayor breed has appointed a new fire chief nicholson who has been with the fire department 25 yiers and -- years who will be the first lgbt fire chief and she appointed michael lambert as the city librarian. he served as the acting librarian and worked directly under louis herrera. and last year they received the national award for city libraries. and then city administrator hired and made the announcement of the new director for the office of cannabis which is marissa rodriguez from the d.a.s office and so she did work with

the district attorney's office on the retroactive expungement on marijuana convictions. there's a little blurb about her but three key appointments that have transpired. for small business week we had legislation introduced which is on the back side of the director's report. and we will hear that on april 8. i haven't quite integrated back into not being out on the bay in mexico. so i apologize for that.

supervisor brown has substituted legislation so there are amendments to the brick and mortar requiring cash -- requiring brick and mote ar businesses on cash and we'll have legislative reviews sent out soon. and two items that were also introduced on and there's a restriction on restricting tobacco activities on commercial property. that is i think commissioner dwight you mentioned the council's district merchant's meeting and the second is restricting the sale and manufacturing and distribution of tobacco products including electronic cigarettes for retail establishments. and so it does say that who have

not received an order from the food and drug administration approving their marketing so it's a little nuanced because i don't think the food and drug administration has made -- as i understand it from the press release from city attorneys there's not been approval. anyway, this will be something that was just introduced. haven't had time to look at the fine details of it. it will be coming before the commission. it does look like it's another one of those significant impacts to our corner store gas stations and any entity that does sell e-cigarettes. and then we've talked about the one key state bill, a.b.161 and i don't have any other updates for any other state bills.

that concludes my report for today unless there's questions. >> commissioner: okay. commissioner riley. >> the 190311 does that include cannabis? >> no, it's e-cigarettes. i think cannabis is -- >> you can smoke weed just not e-cigarettes. >> the products don't have tobacco. >> what about e-cigarettes, don't they have e-cigarettes with cannabis in them? >> yeah, but this don't have tobacco. >> this is specifically with tobacco and variations of tobacco products not including all electronic smoke devices. >> got it. >> >> do we have any members of the

public that would like to make comment on the director's report? seeing none any other questions for the director? item closed. next item, please. >> clerk: item 8, commissioners report allows the president, vice president and commissioners to report on small business activities and make announcements of business to the small business community,duct n discussion. >> i participated with the mayor and supervisor mandelman and castro. open for all means you sign a petition that says i welcome everyone into our business and believe it or not, it's a big deal. there's certain parts of the country where they just don't do that. i was proud to sign onto that. my company signed onto that.

we had a good turnout for that press conference. following that i participated in a merchant walk with the mayor in the castro which was very good. >> can i ask a question about the prn -- open for all. >> it's already city wide. so your neighborhood can participate. open for all is san francisco is open for all. >> is there signage? >> yes, signage. you can go to the website. it's opentoall.org >> i'll reach out to maryanne and vos was helping to distribute the open for all stickers. if he's not doing it anymore. >> i went to the open for all website and signed on through there and i did it both here and

in michigan for offices in the midwest and they sent us all their stickers and everything we need. >> for instance was the kickoff city for the national campaign. >> commissioner dwight. >> i attended the monthly council merchant's district meeting on behalf of the dog patch business association of which i am a member and also on behalf of the small business commission. we heard two pertinent conditions and one is the requirement to take cash. there are some opinions about that in small business. one being the risk to employees as having to have a lot of cash on hand especially people open late at night or aren't in areas

where they may feel vulnerable to being robbed and business owners who may not want cash being in the presence of the employees and risking theft of cash in the business. anyway, there'll be some discussion about that we also have a presentation from cruz, the self-driving cars you see circumstance lating around the sit -- circulating around the city. it's a company partly owned by general motors. i was interested to know is gm will own the fleet of cars and essentially their goal is to basically create a driverless uber type system to put that whole gig economy in jeopardy. to the extent we consider independent operators and drivers of uber and lyft

vehicles and other shared vehicles to be businesses of themselves it will be an impact on them. it's coming. that's all i got. >> commissioner: commissioner laguanas. >> i'm looking forward to the first legacy application of an uber driver. i participated in a workshop with the d.a.s office. we have a meeting coming up towards the end of april. to the extent that any of you all have any particular insights or ideas about ways to stop or control the nation's highest per capita rate of auto burglary,

i'm certainly welcome -- would love to hear those ideas and would love to take them to the workshop on your behalf. >> don't leave anything in your car. not a penny on your dashboard. >> you'll still get broken in to. >> any other commissioner comments. do we have any members of the public that would like to make comment on commissioner reports? seeing none, next item, please. >> clerk: item 9, new business allows commissioner to introduce new agenda items for future consideration by the commission. discussion item. >> do we have new business? commissioner zousounis. >> i would like to request of our staff to draft a formal resolution from the commission based on our september 24th meeting minutes that we as a commissioner voted on an

outlined mitigation measures on the ban of flavored tobacco and now that we're facing another ban on the last remaining inventory the businesses can sell, we need to affirm from our body it has to be paired with litigation and we did outline those measures and i would like the staff to put that in a formal resolution that we can then discuss with supervisors and the mayor's office. >> >> okay. well will do that, thank you. any other commissioner comments for new business? >> do we have members of the public that would like to make a comment on new business? seeing none. >> and if we can do that before the april 8th meeting. >> to have ready for the april

8th meeting. >> yeah. >> not schedule a separate meeting. >> thank you. >> commissioner: okay. any members of the public? seeing none, public comment is closed. next item. >> clerk: sf gov tv please show the office of small business slide. >> commissioner: okay. it is our custom to begin and end each small business commission mede mete a reminder the office the small business is the only place to start your new business in san francisco and the best place to get answers on your question doing business in san francisco. the office of small business should be your first stop when have you questions on what to do next and you can find us online or in person here at city hall and our service free of charge. the small business commission is the official public forum to voice your opinions and concerns about the policies that affect the economic vitality of small businesses in san francisco. we want to hear from you.

if you need assistance with small business matters start here with the office of small business. next item. >> item 10, adjournment, action item. >> i would like to adjourn this meeting in the member of ernie austin the owner of clips variety who passed away last week. ernie was fourth generation owner of cliffs variety on castro street and he was very instrumental in changing -- taking that business when a lot of businesses weren't changing, he changed that business model into the hardware store that is a successful hardware store today and is being continued and passed down to future generations of his family. so i'd like to adjourn in honor of ernie austin. >> second. >> a great legacy. >> wonderful. >> clerk: motion by commissioner adams to adjourn the meeting in

memory of ernie austin seconded by commissioner yee-riley. >> all in favor. any nos? meeting closed. thank you.