>> clerk: item number 1, call to order. [roll call] >> clerk: we do have a quorum. >> thank you all for being here for those that are watching remotely and for those in the audience, and this is the transportation committee of the treasure island authority,

commissioner haney, and we appreciate your presence. >> clerk: item number 2, general public comment. >> are there any items that are not on the agenda that the public would like to make a comment? seeing none -- >> clerk: item number 3, consent agenda, approving the minutes of the may 21, 2019 motion. okay. i second the motion. all in favor? the ayes have it. >> clerk: item 4, wastewater treatment plant update. >> so tom birmingham from the wastewater treatment plant will be providing us an update. >> thank you for having me this morning to talk about the project. my name is tom birmingham, and i'm the director for the

wastewater treatment plant for the san francisco public utilities commission. today, i'm going to give you a quick overview of the location and objectives. i'll talk about some of the technology decisions that have been made and some of the other things that we're going through right now. so as you're aware, treasure island is an island in the middle of the bay. there's a wastewater treatment plant out there, as well as other wastewater infrastructure which is ageing and well past its useful life. this is all old navy legacy infrastructure which is a challenge to maintain. however, the staff that works for the p.u.c. is doing an incredible job of maintaining it and moving forward. we currently have an m.o.u. with tida where s.f.u. has a contract on the wastewater,

water, power, and gas. as i said, our staff is doing a great job going forward. we have problems, but we are quick to react and keep things going. in addition to the m.o.u. that i just mentioned for the current operations, we have another m.o.u. for the tida plant, supporting 300 new homes, and 200 acres of open space. phase one was started last year. it will include 2100 homes and be completed in about five years. the contract that we have with tida says that we're able to treat water for this new development and recycle water for the new development.

the plant is -- the existing plant is in yellow. this is the northeast corner of the island. the red that you see on this map is our study area, which we are looking at for the new plant. so within this chunk of land where we're going to locate the new plant and all of the associated infrastructure that'll go with it, in addition to this, there'll be another portion of the future that will be used for the yard and other uses. we're trying to be flexible as we're trying to grow. we don't want everything built on day one, we want to make it more modular of sorts. the primary thing is addressing the ageing infrastructure out there. we want to move as quickly as

we can to get things replaced. we also want to make sure we meet the future regulatory requirements. we don't have a crystal ball, but we are going to make sure we are compliant for the foreseeable future, and we're also going to make sure we meet the water and wastewater recycled needs of the development. so the new plant is going to be relatively small. for those of you familiar with our other facilities in san francisco on the main land, the southeast plant is about 60 million gallons per day g.p.d., but this one will be

1.4 billion g.p.d. so we recently concluded our alternative analysis report, the a.. the a.a.r., we'll call it looks at all different technologies and things like that. it's a 3% and 5% design. so for the liquid technologies, we looked at four different options. we looked at conventional activated sludge, which is what we use in the southeast right now. very familiar to the p.u.c. however, it takes a larger footprint and it's on -- it's proven, i'll call it. it's been around for a long time.

oxidation ditch is another alternative that we looked at. that's an older technology that is proven, however, it takes a much greater footprint and it's really not really flexible if you look at future lregulatory needs. we want to make sure we're flexible in the future with whatever regulatory needs may come down. we then looked at s.b.r.s. they are proven, but not as flexible for future growth, and they tend to be more of a package unit. you buy it, it comes in a box, and it works fantastic. however, we tend to be a little flexible when we design and build things with the existing things that we have so if we had to switch out bells and pipes and pumps, that we can keep one item on a shelf

somewhere. we then looked at membrane bioreactors or m.b.r.s. this is the choice we decided to go with. it's productive, been around for a while, but it also produces the highest quality effluent. when we looked at the size of the plant, we decided some wat water -- we decided to produce high quality effluent, so if our water quality uses grow in the future, we'll have that. it's also a smaller footprint, which is good, so they can use less land for it. we then looked at biosolids and digestion, and what we wanted to do there. the first choice was aerobic

digestion. ultimately, with that, sometimes odors find a way out, and we were not excited about that. this is also a known technology to the p.u.c. we tend to go with anaerobic digestion at the p.u.c. over time, the challenge with that is with a plant this size, it doesn't really make sense. it doesn't make sense right now because the flows are so low. you know, at full buildout, maybe it'll make sense to go this way, but right now, it's not cost effective considering the size of the plant. so we ultimately decided to haul our sludge to existing facilities. for the foreseeable future as

the development grows, we're not producing that much in the way of biosolids, so why not utilize the two plants that are going to be treating their biosolids to a much higher degree, and in the future, maybe they haul those solids back to t.i. for application on the land farming. or in the future when the development is built out, let's look at the technologies that are out there then, when we have the people there and the biosolids there. the last thing we want to do is build something that's modern and really great now, and not have the flows, and when the flows come in in the future, the technology is old and outdated. so currently, we haul our sludge to the oceanside plant. it's about a truck a day. this new plant, we're going to thicken to a higher concentration of solids than we're hauling now, so i believe

it's one to two trucks a day that we'll haul to oceanside. we're not ruling it out, we're just ruling it out for now. we then looked at effluent disposal and how we're going to get rid of our water once it's treated. one option was to build a new outfall. building a new outfall anywhere is a challenge. building a new outfall into san francisco bay is a really big challenge. this would have added at least two to three years to our process for the permitting, so we decided this really wasn't the best way to go about it. we looked at the existing outfall and tried to see if we could slip line it or just use it as-is, and that outfall has been with the plant since the 50's, is also past its useful

life, and it was not a good way to spend our money. so we thought going a more creative direction would be a good solution for this plant, so we're going to create some wetlands that'll be between the plant and the bay, and i have some images that i can show you. these wetlands will serve as hydraulic retention because what happens is we're going to put very clean water into our retention. it's very clean water that has no end restrictions, so these will be able to have walking paths around. people will be able to touch the water and not going to have signs everywhere. we'll produce wildlife habitat, and eventually, when they reach their capacity, they'll flow

into stormwater pipes on the site. eventually, if it looks like the stormwater pipes are full, they'll have the ability to store the he flueffluent, so we able to store a couple days of effluent during wet weather and storm events. the image on the bottom is small, however, it shows you a cross section of what it could look like, with your bike path on the left, some of the trees, and the plant in the middle. and then, on the right side, you can see where the wetlands going into the way will be. this is the recommends treatment train. i won't see here for long, but it just shows, you know, we have thought through the process, come up with a solution that is viable and will be a really good fit for treasure island. then, this is a high level

conceptual -- don't get too attached to this idea because it will change as we go forward, image, but it does show how we're thinking for this plant and how it will tie into the wetlands and the surrounding area. the gray infrastructure is what you see in those buildings, so those will be the treatment facilities, buildings, and then, there'll be four wet land cells that'll sort of surround the plant high into the trails for the entire island. i'd also point out everything we're doing is outside of the 100-foot bcdc barrier. it will be a different process that we build out to. so in order to build a plant, we needed to -- or are going through a property acquisition process. the gray infrastructure will be

going to the state land commission this summer and be pulled out of the trust. the buildings and treatment facilities are not a trust compatible use. however, the wetlands are a trust compatible use, so they will stay within the trust, however, they are an integral part of the treatment plant, and under retention, so they'll be part of the treatment plan and under a 66-year lease with tida. we're looking right now at several different project delivery methods. staff has recommended that we go forward with a design build operate procurement, however, we are still going through discussions with our unions and going through the board of supervisors process, so it is not a done deal.

however, we are considering several alternative delivery methods for this project, whether it's a design fill project, project build. then our project schedule, we are currently working on the c. e.r., which is the conceptual engineering report. some things will be 30% level. if we go with that project method, we'll be looking to issue an r.f.q. later this summer and then an r.f.p. later next year, and then we'd like to start construction in 2021 and get construction done in early '23. after construction is complete, we'll go through commissioning and all of that, so it's not going to -- it's not

construction will finish, and we flip the switch, there will be a start-up period. and with that, i'd be happy to answer any questions. >> thank you, mr. birmingham for this exciting presentation. i'm sure we have a lot of questions here. right now one up front. so right now, we are not having any treatment first phase. >> >>er -- you are treating the liquids, but not solids. >> i will come back later and ask some questions, it will be on odor, since things will be hauled away and all those questions. commissioner tsen? >> thank you. i think this is the first comprehensive review that we've

had about the wastewater system, any ways. the terminology is very technical, so there are some questions that i have to ask of you so that you can clarify. but to begin with, are we going to be recycling the water for -- for use in -- for landscaping? i mean, what -- what is the use of the recycled water? is it going to be used, like, gray water within buildings or is it simply going to be used for landscaping purposes, or is it simply to be used at all? >> for all the buildings on treasure island will be dual plumbed. so your toilets when you flush your toilets, it will be recycled water.

the gardens on the island will be recycled water. those will be the two uses, toilets and irrigation. >> and then, the dual plumbed, that comes directly from the treatment of the water on the island? >> so it goes -- so the wastewater comes in, it goes through our treatment process. it's disinfected, and in addition to your wastewater pipes and drinking water pipes you have in your streets, you'll have recycled water pipes, and that will recycle water throughout the island. >> and that's different than water that is used for the landscaping? >> no. it's dual plumbed, so it's for the landscaping. >> and i've heard, and perhaps you can enlighten me that for

our situation where the groundwater is really high, that there's a salt content to that water, that if you recycle it, it actually has a corrosive effect on the pipes. can you tell me a little bit about that? >> so right now, the groundwater is high up there as the tides go up and down. groundwater goes up and down, as well. in the future, the new wastewater distribution and stormwater distribution pipes are going to be new and will not allow the groundwater to get into the system. in the interim, there is some salt water that gets into the system. i wouldn't consider it overly corrosive for the pipes. however, what happens that we're going to have to look at as we go through this process, the salt river is not necessarily great for the plants. so they'll have to have a

treatment that takes the salt out. but when you look at the project ten years out, you'll have new pipes that won't allow salt water into the system, so you won't have the salt water coming in. >> well, it is an issue that i hope you will be looking at. >> yes, we've considered the salt river. >> okay. great. thank you. so let me just ask you then, in the -- in the liquid technology, the options that you have, you're going to be using a membrane bioreactor, m.b.r., it's complicated. but can you tell me, this disinfected water for reuse, how is it going to be used? >> so after it goes through the treatment process, we zap it at

the end. you can do it through ozone, or chlorine, like you do in your swimming pool, or ultra-violet

lights, so -- [please stand by]. >> -- the truck drivers don't want to be sitting in the traffic, and we also want to coordinate it going to the

oceanside plant when it's easier for them to receive it, and generally speaking, that's 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, but these trucks are leaving the island later at night and not causing more traffic. >> i do like the fact that the effluent disposal is going to the wetlands, because i think there's the opportunity, as you say, an opportunity for habitat and walking paths, but there's an opportunity for sea level rise, so the more wetlands that we can create around treasure ey island, the better. i think that those are my questions for now. and then, the only other thing would be the possibility for

some sort of cogeneration could be used effectively and reduce our dependence on other charges. i don't know what the status is of that, but i hope you can look into that goal. >> my team and i will be looking at that at the appropriate time when biosolids come into the plant. >> thank you. commissioner lai? >> just wondering whether any

treasure island designs are also designed to have their own wastewater treatment design within the project? >> no, we have the plan for the plant, and the plant is going to be producing reclaimed water for use throughout the island. we have centralized treatment and management for both wastewater and stormwater, so where some buildings in the city now also have on-site stormwater diversion, we're collecting all of our stormwater flows from the island from both road ways and buildings and centrally treating those in the open spaces. >> okay. great. and then, i think the -- i echo some of chair tsen's comments about concerns around truckloading. just for perspective, can you help us understand within san

francisco mainland, how many truckloads of the sludge has to go to the oceanside treatment plant daily? >> so what happens right now at oceanside in the southeast plant is all the wastewater from the west side flows to the oceanside plant and then to digestion. and after it's digested, the biosolids get transported from the plant for disposal elsewhere, so we're not hauling things from outside into the plant. it's really being hauled off. the same thing happened at southeast. i do not have the number of trucks leaving those plants off the top of my head, but the southeast plant -- if the plant were looking at one or two trucks a day of that size, the southeast plant is much bigger, so there's a lot more trucks

leaving the southeast plant right now, but i don't have a number. >> i see. i just i want to make sure i heard you right. i think i heard in your presentation that you're only anticipating one truckload from t.i. to -- >> one to two. >> and then, how many would be going back to t.i.? >> the digesters are located at oceanside at t.i. >> i thought i heard you say that once the -- >> if the future -- >> oh. >> if -- if people on the island decide that they would like to see the biosolids come back for beneficial use, whether it's on the ag or ball fields -- the biosolids have

uses, nutrient use, they would have the opportunity for that. >> okay. thank you for that. you might have already said this, and i missed it. were you saying that currently there's no plan to ever treat the waste, the digestion on treasure island or are you saying just in the interim when the island is still building out, that we will be hauling to oceanside? >> in the interim. we'd love to treat it on the island, but we'll have to wait time. the biosolids isn't being produced. we'd rather wait ten years, see what the population looks like, and see what the technology is. so we're all for doing on the island, we just want to wait until the population and load right side there. >> and then, sort of related to your last point about

footprint. just curious if the land procurement, do you anticipate that to be sufficient if the plant ever wanted to expand on island treatment? >> we have space set aside for growth on the island. we have space set aside for the biosolids. the existing plant may come back to the city, so we have land set aside for reasonable growth on t.i. >> okay. that sounds very thoughtful. >> so trucking waste all the way to the west side is a long distance. i'm sure there are many reasons, contracting reasons why we don't -- it might disincentivize us to think along this path. it seems to me geographically,

there are probably closer wastewater treatment plants that are perhaps not within san francisco county, perhaps east bay mud that's perhaps much closer. are there any possibilities or benefits in exploring perhaps trucking to the east bay than going all the way to the west side? >> so as we go forward with the new plant, we want to explore -- so we want to show during the a.r. that we have one viable solution, that oceanside works. the reason we didn't go southeast is because there's going to be a lot of construction there, and we don't want to go there. oceanside is further away, but it's right off the freeway. but as we go forward in the plant, where we are producing a more thicker sludge that's more reliable, we are going to be looking at other pgs ones in the area that we can haul to. -- at other options in the area that we can haul to.

but right now, because we have other options that we have in the city, we'll look at what our options are. >> i think coming from an urban planning background, planners always think about regional resources. problems are not always solved within boundary lines, so to speak. i would just encourage you to explore options wherever feasible, if we can reduce our carbon footprint by collaborating with other jurisdictions, to just explore those. and then just curious about the wetlands designed. who's designing that? the -- >> c.m.g. is on their team, and they're involved with the rest. if you look at that image,

things seem to mesh together, so it's great that they have that team on board. they have a couple other teams working with them, and then, we have a team looking at the depth and things like that. so it is -- everything that we're doing is following the guidelines for the island, so whether it's the wetlands or how the plant looks, it's going to be the design guidelines planned for the island because we want to blend in and not stick out. >> great. that's what i was thinking, too, to engage the public design teams for what -- the wetlands. it's very important for us to thoughtfully design the wetlands so that they are usable by the public. and then, last question you mention about the schedule that is alternative delivery is the path that you're pursuing then, it would -- then that's like the timeline that you're laying

out. what did you mean by alternatives delivery? >> so that's a design build or design build operate. we would move forward, and with those two procurements, you tend to put out design documents around 10 to 30% and then let the design builder operator carry the design forward. the consultant will design everything to 100%, and then, somebody comes on and builds it. so we would get somebody on board sooner to start the process. >> okay. meaning that your entity will have to decide which delivery method to go with before the end of the summer effectively. >> right. right now, i guess that we're still -- we're talking to the board of supervisors and just moving through that process to see where things land. >> got it. and then, the design build operate, that obviously will narrow down the options, right, because not every operator

would also build or would it be, like, a project team where there would be delivery team and then an operations team where they would pair up? >> generally speaking, the design build operate is three teams. we have a designer, operators, and a builder. if we go that route, we'd have five teams that we'd go to for the r.f.q., and then, we'd narrow it down for the r.f.p. >> all right. thank you. >> thank you. you can see that we're very excited with all the questions. initially, the perception is with the p.u.c. is that everything will be on-site. today, however, what you're talking about is right now, at least in the interim, at least for the initial phase, that

there will now be biosolids on-site treatment, that's correct? okay. so the question that i have, i'm very familiar with the southeast wastewater plant. i've lived in the bayview and been in the community for decades. one of the things that we want to make sure is owed arrest treatment, no matter how small, even if you have is just a spec compared to the southeast wastewater treatment plant. however, we do know with donated transfer, we do encounter a lot of odor. so specifically going back to treasure island, you'll have one of these two trucks daily. what kind of transport system are you utilizing when you're

taking from -- the biosolids that you're taking -- loading from the plant to the truck? during that process is when we think a lot of the odors escape or what's that neighborhood that live around the waste treatment plant, you know, have complained about. so lessons learned, how are you dealing with that on treasure island? >> so right now, it's a tanker truck, so it's a very sealed truck. it is very liquid that's being hauled off. in the future, the same plant is going to have the same odor standards that the southeast plant have. we're not going to let odors leave the fence line. we're very conscious because we're going to have a lot of people in the area. the last thing we want to do is create wetlands and then have it smell like a treatment plant. we will ensure when biosolids

are off hauled, it's done with very robust odor control that does not allow the odors to leave the inside of the plant. >> so ultimately, you'll be considering maybe going to the completed or southeast wastewater treatment plant, but that's still a couple of 7 or 8 years or decades away. >> eventually, but right now, it doesn't make sense to go there. >> right now, for decades, for p.u.c. out flflow, you only ha one pipe, and the wastewater-water will be for the outfall combined? >> for the outfall?

the outfall that's there, that will be -- >> oh, you're using the same thing, you're not changing the infrastructure? >> no. so the existing plant uses existing outfall. when we change to the new plant, the existing plant and outfall will be decommissioned and reused. >> according to the housing schedule, i know looking at your scheduling, 2023, but the first wave of housing on the island will be on 2021. so the first phase will be using the old system, not your system, because it's not going to be under 2023. >> they can handle well over 1 million gallons a day, so the

existing plant that's there will be well able to handle that. >> okay. and then, at some point that you decide right now as you build, you will make the provisions to ensure that if, at the end of the day down the line, you decide to do the biosolids treatment on-site, that we will have the necessary permitting and capabilities, so whatever we need that's necessary to do that, so that's in your system now, to you allow your system to do that? is that what you're anticipating or will you have to start out all over now or at the outset, you can make some -- >> if you went back to the diagrams and saw those boxes, you envision one of those boxes will be nothing, and then in the future plop down one of those future biosolids

treatment, whether it's processing or drying, producing something that we can use on-site. >> so lastly, looking at your schedule, the wetland, which is one of the greatest things on this. according to your construction, all of your visions, at what point do you envision having the wetlands vision? >> we envision having half of it ready to go when we turn the treatment plant on. the piece between the gray infrastructure of the plant and the bay, they'll be operational from day one. mind, our effluent is going to be going in there. these wet lands are not an extra, they are part of the

process. >> and the funding will be coming from you guys? >> the wetlands are already part of the treatment plant, so therefore we are building and paying for them. >> commissioners, do you have any questions for mr. birmingham? >> i know this is way down the line, but are we also considering, in addition to the biosolids, the organics generated on the island? are we going to have garbage disposals in the unit? it's not a bad things because you could digest those and get the energy from them, but are we looking at that extra capacity or capability at the plant might be? >> that's a great question.

you can handle those organics if you plan for them. if you don't plan for them, you really upset the bugs in the digesters, so we want to look at how the island is developing, and if there is a source that we'd want to put in, organics, that would be great. >> yeah, because that's less hauling off the island of those organics, so -- >> thank you. any other questions, commissioners? any others? thank you so much, sir, for coming, and we'd like to have you back. this is a very interesting conversation as part of the development of the island, so thank you for your presentation today, and we'd like to have you back. >> thank you for having me. >> clerk: item number 5 on-island utility system

upgrade. >> thank you, chair richardson and members of the committee. with the update on the wastewater treatment plant, i just thought it might be good to give a brief update on some of the other major utility systems on the island and the improvements that are underway. so in addition to the wastewater treatment plant, there are upgrades underway on the electrical distribution system, on-island water storage, and on the natural gas distribution system, as well. tom talked about the wastewater treatment plant that'll be constructed out at the northeastern corner of the island. the electrical switch gear will be adjacent to that. also along the west -- or sorry, the eastern shoreline will be the new permanent gas

regulator site, and then on yerba buena island, the new water storage reservoirs. so these are the wastewater treatment plant/electrical switch gear site as it looks like today. all of the structures that were there have been removed, and they're in the process of processing the demolition debris in the background. you can see the wastewater treatment plant -- the existing wastewater treatment plant. our existing service on the island comes from the davis substation, which is on the former oakland army base site on port of oakland property, and we have some underground and overheadlines in the east bay. and then, the primary switch

gear is in hangar three, and distribution goes out from that primary switch gear both to yerba buena island via second submarine cable and then to the rest of treasure island, as well. so the new -- in terms of the new electrical switch gear, there's -- this diagram shows where that a where -- where that electrical switch gear is going to be and it may switch around as they complete their design there. but the red line is a new overhead line that'll be constructed to bring power to where the primary cables land, and then a primary trunk from the switch gear along 9th, and then down 9th to avenue c where

it'll connect to the existing services. we'll also feed existing services on the island off of that new line along 9th street, so -- so the first three bullets there address some of the points that i've made verbally, but here he in the process, as i mentioned, of completing the removal of debris -- demolition debris from the site, and that will be followed by the geotechnical work starting later next month. and then to be completed by july of 2020 with the target of the installation of the new electrical switch gear which will be a p.u.c.-provided infrastructure by january 2021: and then, on the natural gas

item, the image isn't showing up, but the location -- oh, it is there. you see the black box just in the upper left just east -- or just north of 4th street and portal passage, in the east side park there, which is the box, that's the anticipated gas regulator site. and this is that site today, so the demolition crews that are currently working at the wastewater treatment plant site, they'll be moving over here to remove this structure as well as some other structures in this vicinity, and the concrete surfaces. and then, this area will also be undergoing geotechnical improvement. the natural gas service is to be provided by pg&e.

they own the existing infrastructure which supplies natural gas to treasure island from the east bay, and ticd is coordinating with pg&e on the design and construction schedule. but the target to complete the installation of the new switch gear or new regulator station is the third quarter of 2020. on yerba buena island, we have the new water storage reservoirs that will be constructed, and this work is also getting ready to begin. this is the site today, so the work that t.i.c. has been doing has been to excavate and construct the shoring wall, so this is now down to the grade at which the foundation of the

tanks will be set, and they'll be constructed, and a portion of this site will be backfilled, so the new reservations will be partially buried in the hillside. capacity of the three reservoirs has a combined capacity of 4 million gallons, which is a maximum daily projected demand plus four hours of designed fire flows. the construction of the site utilities that feed into the tanks is going to begin next month follows by the instruction of the new reservoirs continuing in august and that'll be followed by about a year testing by the water's distribute division with the target of being on-line and operational in the fourth quarter of 2020.

and so that concludes my update, if you have any questions. >> yes, we have questions. something that concerns the distribution of the electrical systems. that is still going to remain in the port of oakland, managed by p.u.c., right? >> the substation on the port of oakland property is a pg&e substation, but the lines that come -- and we have an operating agreement with the port of oakland. and then, lines that come out of that substation to the submarine cable are currently tida property and will be p.u.c. property in the future. >> so the transmission will remain in pg&e, the delivery. and then, inside, the p.u.c. takes over, right? >> yeah. we are using hetchy power, so hetchy only has transition from

hetchy reservoirs down to newark, and then, from -- and then, they would put the power on to pg&es network, and there'd be a wheeling charge that p.u.c. would pay pg&e to transmit the power and then take that power off of pg&es grid at the davis substation. >> commissioners, any questions? oh, commissioner tsen. >> yes, mr. beck. have we looked at alternatives to energy sources, as well. refre treasure island is a very windy site. it seems like this might be an opportunity when we're looking at electricity to look at those alternative sources, as well. >> yeah. there have been a number of evaluations that have been done. right now, the plan is that 5%

of the power on the island will come from power generated on the island. >> you mean, from buildings. >> yeah. the roof of hangar 3, they intend to install solar there. that's almost three acres of solar, and then, many of the buildings will have solar, as well. the city also evaluated the potential of constructing a cogeneration plant on the island. cogeneration, for members of the public that may not be familiar with it, is a conventional generation using natural gas or other fuel to heat water that is then put through a turbine to heat

water, and then, the condensed steam will be used to heat hot water in buildings or through heat pumps for cooling or air conditioning and other uses. but because we're primarily residential, we have a very -- they call it diurnal demand, where we have a peak in the morning, and then, in the evening, when people are cooking dinners and takes showers, with relatively low overnight demand and relatively low midday demand, as opposed to a community that is more like downtown san francisco where you have a combination of commercial and residential spaces because that commercial enterprise provides a high

midday demand for power and for air conditioning. so we did look at cogeneration, and it was not -- seemed to be -- did not deem to be optimal for the island. and there is also a study done of wind generation, and the -- this was done before -- several years ago, but my understanding is what they found was that the wind most of the day was relatively low, and then, when it picked up, it picked up to levels that it often exceeded the maximum that the wind turbines could process before. if the winds are too high, they -- they just release, go out of generation and go into free spinning. and so it -- it was kind of -- we had low -- too low sometimes

and too hyaigh at other times. so it's not currently included in the development plan, but perhaps some on-site wind generation with certain projects may be feasible. >> yes. i do think that for solar and wind, the technology has changed so much that studies that might have been done several years ago may not be the current thinking on it. and i just would urge the team to look at those possibilities. solar panels are much cheaper now, they're more efficient, and certainly wind turbines, too, there's been several generations of wind turbines, and we have the ability to do it specifically in the northwest section of the island, so it may be something that's worth exploring now

again, so i would urge the team to look at that. >> yeah, we can discuss that with ticd and even work with our consultants to look at that again. >> and then, in terms of -- was there any thinking to a district system of -- that's heating, cooling. you know, vancouver is an example, where the old olympic site was, has been primarily turned to residential, as well, where our island is residential, and in fact they have a district cogeneration system that works for them. and i think it would be good to look at those types of models and see if there's some applications for us. >> yeah. the district heating system was part of the cogeneration study that i discussed. but because the -- the demand period is really limited to about seven hours a day, couple

hours in the morning, and four to five hours in the evening, it -- it was not deemed to be economical. >> yes. well, again, the vancouver example that i am citing is primarily a residential district, as well. >> okay. but i think these -- the technology has changed so quickly, i think it would really be a good idea from the time that it was studied, which was maybe 8 years ago, there's certainly been many more advances that we can look at. [please stand by]