i'm glad you're not obstructing literally bedtime, but you know, this is something that -- that just makes the room -- the front of these apartment buildings that are there, a lot of which are old victorians, they don't have acoustic insulation, really makes it hard to escape the noise from the street. so i'm asking you guys to take that more global view on this. i real that they're not particularly problematic operators. some of the things that i've cited in the brief are unfortunately true. they've used dishonesty to get to this point. one of the reasons that i've been unable to negotiate this with them head on was they weren't aware of this. they filed this permit with d.p.w. actually mentioning

b.b.n.s, the day my b.b.n. expired, october 30, 2018, which was the day they originally applied for it. interestingly, the language for their outdoor seating area was added to their b.b.n. permit two days after my b.b.n. permit was filed the day they had a building permit suspension because they installed windows which are directly related to the issue of noise. so i'm ready glad to be bringing this to your attention, and i'll happily take any questions, but that's -- >> commissioner honda: i've got a question, sir. are you done? >> yes. >> commissioner honda: so if i'm not mistaken, i believe this property has been before this body a few years ago, isn't it? was it a year ago? okay. were you part of that appeal process, as well? >> i made a public -- are you talking about the outdoor

seating for urbana? >> commissioner honda: yes. >> yes, i did make a public comment at that time. >> sir, this permit doesn't really stand out to d.p.w. it's pretty standard, and it has a condition in it related to the level of noise. >> through d.p.w.? >> yeah. permit itself has a condition on the level of noise. >> oh, yeah, there are a.b.c. permit has a condition on noise. it says no noise should be automobile within residences. i personally don't think that realistically a group of 16 people on the sidewalk is not going to be audible. i actually went to another one of their establishments last night, amano, which is on hayes street, and measured with a decibelometer and measured noise within the seating area. >> so what i'm talking about is the condition in the table and chairs condition in the permit,

condition 16, which relates to the amount of noise that can be made related to the ambient condition. have you seen that? >> yes. >> i'm just wondering why isn't that condition good enough for you. >> because the ambient noise is going to be really problematic to measure if there are particular instances of interruption. it's going to be based on not some broad average of ambient noise but is there a night where i'd rather not call in a complaint? it adds an undue burden for me and my relationship with the restaurant. forget about eating there, i don't want to be policing my neighbors. i feel that's an undue burden. whether or not they're going to actively police it, no, they're not. so that's on me to constantly

either bring it to d.p.w., okay, am i going to ask, can you take a measurement on the ambient noise and then record it? but i think this makes it go on but at least there's some level of accountability that's leading up to my neighbors calling the restaurant. the most powerful body is the a.b.c., which is a blunt tool to be used in something where right now it can be used on a business. i see this as adding a lot of burdens to my relationship with them and my block.

even the thought is do i just call this in from my place? it's night and day, so -- i'm interested in qualitatively are there disturbances that need to be monitored versus quantitatively. it's much easier for me to say now that i have the chance to prevent noise pollution, which is a very amorephous problem that has a lot of different sources, it's easier to say don't go down this rabbit hole. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you.

>> clerk: thank you. okay. we will now hear from the permit holder. >> commissioner honda: welcome. >> good evening, commissioners. my name is anut matthew. i'm with the back of the house restaurant group. we operate and manage barwali, the restaurant in question here. [please stand by]

>> in addition to that, we went with the sidewalk permit and we specifically put in a patio policy that states that we would

close down the patio at 10:00 p.m. we have several other restaurants and we have established restaurants from the restaurant and many different neighbourhoods -- in many different neighbourhoods. all of these restaurants have established patio policies and you have seen our policy here, as well. we have always said to the appellant and to our neighbors, please, we have given them our self owned number, our director of operations. if there any concerns, please contact us. we want to be good neighbors. we have posted outside our restaurant that they be mindful of our neighbors. please do not make any noise. we will put up another poster next to the patio if this passes through stating the same. so we are doing everything on our end to try and make this.

we want to be respectful of our neighbors and we want to be good neighbors. we have been operating in the bay area, in san francisco for a number of years and we intend to be here. that is all i have. thank you. >> good evening, commissioners. i am a consultant 4661 do visit arrow. i attend almost every hearing, i have for many years in the entertainment commission. 90% of the problems or complaints are noise related, so when they brought me aboard here , i said, okay, we are here for a table and chairs permit, four tables, 16 chairs, it seems like a lot of the appellant's concerns are noise related. what can we do better that we aren't doing -- the other aspect

that we are involved in here is that area is being revitalized right across the street on grove is another restaurant with an open -- it is open air, you cannot contain sound when it is open air. what can we do? make sure the windows or shut. make sure the doors are shut, be more conscious of things that can contain noise, but at the end of the day, the voice is an instrument. and when people are dining, they may have a beverage, they may be eating and they may be talking, so that sometimes, that chatter can disturb some people in some shape or form, too. we're doing everything we can. we do have a good track record,

and five of the other establishments in san francisco that have outdoor seating, and we don't have any complaints. there's no notices of violations , so we are in total compliance. what we are asking of you today is we will keep a good dialogue with the neighbor, but at the end of the day, that area, there's more people moving to it , there's more popular places that people want to go to, you know, there's going to be accumulated noise in that area because the area is not a quiet pristine place that it used to be because popular places are moving in and people want to go and patronize those places. at the end of the day, we can do our part, and that is what we will continue to do. what we are asking you here is to uphold the permit because we have followed all the requirements, and that is the proper thing to do. i think it was properly issued. >> are you done? i have a question.

as you mentioned, you know, people are dining, they are having something to drink, voices tend to get a little louder, when this was before this body the last time, we heard from a 10-year-old girl that basically needed to study and do her homework and evidently, they didn't get their permit the last time. and the question was, although, as mentioned, it is on this street, you have a much broader, broader stretch on grove street and speaking of your restaurant, as i am a patron of most of them , i eat at star billy frequently, but instar belly, you have mitigation and the means of a tarp or canopy over the patio area. have you guys thought of any mitigation for this particular property? >> what we can do is we can look into getting some sound testing. those great people like charles salter out there who have acoustics that deal in this.

we can always do more. >> i understand, but is there something in particular -- i mean, my office is that 503. i remember what it used to look like. we understand the changes of the district, but there's people that have lived there prior to those changes and, you know, change comes slowly to some people and as you are dining and you are talking, you know, at 9:00 p.m. or 10:00 p.m. you know , when does a finally get cleaned up and one does somebody actually get to go to sleep? i would like to see some type of mitigation other then a thought. >> sure. >> okay. >> if i may add, we are putting up wind barriers similar to what you have probably seen at star belly. i think star belly specifically you have an awning and you have barriers there. the plan was always to put some

barriers in place. >> to your benefit, you know, because i have seen you, i have seen your other businesses, i would imagine that you would just be as amenable to less property, as well. >> we can do some research on sound testing and get some expert opinions on what other mediations are available. >> okay. >> that is something we can explore. >> thank you. >> go ahead. >> i thank you said you will not have it, but why was there going to be a speaker outside? >> why did you have a speaker? >> we had a speaker outside. we did listen to the neighbors and we have moved it and dismantled it altogether. >> what was it for? for music? >> we had music playing from there, but it was out there partly because it was a large-size space and just to get people to know that they are there.

>> but that is not a requirement of your permit that you have no speaker, right? >> no. >> it was more to be sensitive to the appellant. >> anybody else? >> so when abc gave you your permit, did anybody come out? did anybody from abc come out? >> yes. >> and look at the site conditions and see that there is that one side and then the grove street side? >> they did. they did come by a few times and came by and checked on the sound , as well. we have it is as part of the exhibit here, but our representative did find inspections of the area. she saw and heard multiple busses, tour buses and private autos travelling on the street. she also heard sounds coming from the barbecue restaurant on the northwest corner.

people would be seated and dining and it may create some added noise of their own within the environment. she said the applicant was likely to produce undue noise as a part of this knowledge. >> the key word in this dispute is the street. it is not on grove street, and i think the concern of the appellant, obviously, is you are intruding, -- intruding into residential area, and that is the key issue. i know you are a fine restaurant please not compare apples to bananas. they are still in the same fruit family but they are completely different, so i just want to temper that behavior.

when we had a restaurant issue about a year or so ago, i think it was lusk. >> yeah,. >> and it was a similar issue. in this case, they wanted to put a deck up and, you know, because it was a business and everything that you were doing -- i'm not questioning your integrity, i'm not questioning your business, you're good at what you do. the problem is, there was a resident next door who had a child who wanted to do their homework. there were other residents who would be bothered by things that you can't control. you can't control that fourth drink that raises the volume of people's voices. you can't control that. so is there any flexibility for

putting a further limit if we were to allow these sikhs -- 16 extra seats? would you be open to putting a limit on the service? because we did the math in the lusk discussion and, you know, i have been in touch with folks in the restaurant business forever, and there is the time at which the service stops, and then there's another 30 to 45 minutes to an hour where there is cleanup, that is all noise pollution and will affect your neighbors. is there an opportunity here to find your willingness to limit your hours to 8:30 p.m. or 9:00 p.m. instead of going all the way to 10:00 p.m.? 8:30 p.m. means 9:00 p.m. and nine means at least 9:30 p.m. when it comes to noise. >> we are open to be part of the solution. i think what we can do is maybe go 9:00 p.m. during the week. we are already limited from 11:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m. on saturday and sunday, so that is

limited severely. >> that should probably be expanded a little bit, but what 9:00 p.m. be reasonable? >> we will have a discussion on that one. i really appreciate -- >> i do, too. >> perhaps a final point of what the president said because it is where my mind was going. seating would stop at eight and the -- your seating and that nine of the patio is cleared at ten. so just to be clear, think about what process we are saying is stopping at what time. >> like seating at eight. >> last seating at eight in the patio is cleared at nine versus moving it up in our. >> -- moving it up an hour. >> we are open to that. >> thank you. >> thank you. we will now hear from the department of public works. >> welcome.

>> good evening, commissioners. thank you for having me. i am here and happy to answer any questions about our process. i will tell you categorically it was determined this application, compared against our public work order, compared against the public works code, was deemed to be conformant. as such, it was approved. we have worked actively with the applicant to try to mitigate the effects on the community and we have had some success. they truncated the hours, they shrunk the footprint of the tables that they were seeking to place in the public right-of-way , these are all dismounts -- demonstrative of good faith efforts. the public hearing was held. we had eight objections in advance of the public hearing which triggered it. we had six testimonies during the public hearing sharing that you have a scale of concern. aside from that, i don't really

have anything that i need to share, but i am happy to entertain questions, and we have a few staff members from the commercial permit team here to observe the process and understand how this works. >> thank you. can you talk a little bit about the length of time this permit lasts, and if it is renewable, if it is appealable when it is renewed, what is the future of the permit's life? >> that is a great question. yes, it is renewable, it is appealable, it is revocable. if we determine they were not conforming to the conditions set forth and it was referred to enforcement or inspection to escalate, revocation is high on the chain of escalation, but it would be subject to that, and it is subject to an annual renewal is all table and chair permits are within the public right-of-way. >> and those renewal applications are appealable in a similar fashion to folks that had testimony and provided testimony at a hearing that you

held? >> they can be. we would probably want to convey the expiration date because we have some permits of public works that they have a single date of expiration, we have others that are based more or less when we receive or prove that application. >> okay. so just for revocation in advance of that, are you able to adjust the conditions, for example, if revocation is a last resort on the path towards that, if there were issues you might adjust the hours are just the number of tables and chairs, what kinds of things are you able to do, or has public works done if things are not going as planned? >> i don't know of the precedent for changing conditions after a permit has been approved. the consideration of these conditions is part of the process that we are all engaged and now at the public hearing, doing outreach for the community , soliciting their input, communicating the input that we receive to the applicant so that they have an awareness of what the concerns are, so i don't know that we have enough flexibility that we can just change things after we approved

the permit. we are responsive to all complaints. if there were concerns demonstrated about any permit that we issue, we would seek to follow up accordingly. >> thank you. >> i have a question. i should have probably asked the permit holder. the 11:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m. on the weekend, that was there request? >> that was what was placed on the application. >> there was not an additional requirement they put on the permit? >> that is correct. it is a change in hours of the operation that went from 11:30 a.m. until 10:00 p.m. and then for table and chair permit, 10:00 p.m. means the tables and chairs are not permitted within the public right-of-way. it does not mean that at 10:00 p.m. we begin to disassemble, it means that i cease to have permission to operate in the public right-of-way. >> since we have you here, welcome, i'm glad you are here, gives us the opportunity to get educated, especially me, for my purposes.

so having grown up in this city, there were no tables and chairs on the streets when i was growing up. there wasn't tables and chairs until a decade or two ago, and there are a lot more and it is good for commerce, it is good for the restaurant business, i fully support it, but how do you deal with chair and tables creeping into residential areas, and how, as a department, do you evaluate residential spaces, if i could use that phrase of encroachment? >> when we receive an application for tables and chairs within the public right-of-way, we will solicit a document from the planning department, and i'm just looking so i get the verbiage on it exactly right. it is a request for planning code compliance. so before we pursue the application to the extent of the

public hearing with public works , or before this body, we would have solicited an approval from the planning department that is compliant as a use. the table and chairs are for businesses that are meant to promote activation of the public space and commerce. we wouldn't give them, for instance if i just had a friends that were hanging out in front of my house, i couldn't do that. so there's definitely a defined focus. there's also some consideration given by the planning department so far as the use related to the property. if that doesn't address your question i am happy to follow up >> i am more -- so here we have a situation where we have a restaurant, it could be any restaurant, but we will use this one as an example, where there were no tables and chairs at some point, now we have tables and chairs in the front, and then they want to swing around

the corner and put in 16 tables and chairs, and how is the encroachment measure, how do you deal with the encroachment so 16 -- between 16 and 18, 18 and 22, or eight, instead? where -- is as arbitrary? is it a well studied metric? study in -- especially in this case, the appellant happens to be a resident. it is just any case where it happens to be someone like the appellant who is concerned with their peace and quiet and tranquility of their residence. >> there are no codified elements that dictate gifted to deal the proximity to residential areas. there's nothing we can recite within code or public works order. that being said, we value being good stewards of the public right-of-way and we understand that the conflict arise. more likely than not, our phone will be the one bringing. one example, if i may put up

some -- >> overhead, please. >> just space it as you would look at it, sir,. >> this was the original submission that we received for this permit. as you may notice, this is the frontage on grove street that the tables and chairs are being placed upon. when this was originally submitted to us, you may notice that beyond this, there are two additional tables. these tables are absent on the permit that is before this body today, so that would be an example of a way that we seek to mitigate impacts and we seek to work cooperatively with applicants and the community, and that we are working with to mitigate negative impacts. so while we don't have codified or order oriented density or proximity, as an organizational

value, we always seek to mitigate conflict, and this would be an example there and. >> i have a question. first of all, you are new to d.p.w. i like you, you are informative and you're very informational. what was your thought process knowing this property and this particular type of permit had come before this body and been rejected prior? or were you aware of that? >> i was aware of it, and they took the time to listen to prior proceedings so i had consideration for the community that is being impacted, that i was mindful of their concerns, and also so i had an understanding of concerns that were raised by this body. i would say we have to consider each application on its own merits and issues. if i am going to be an objective , transparent, and functional body, i have to view the application performing as it is, but i understand their long-term residents and people in the community who maybe impacted by these choices.

that being said, a lot of the issues that were raised by the prior appellant and the prior tenants were related to the door , related to noise, they were planning code issues. the tables and chairs, i believe there was a notion that it exasperated those issues, but the crux of what was put before you had to do with planning code violations, the doors, et cetera so we are very mindful of -- i would be a fool not to take note >> thank you for explaining that , again, you are very good. good job. >> thank you for having us. if you have additional questions , let us know. >> thank you. >> thank you for your preparation, we really appreciate it. >> we will now hear from mr. sanchez. >> you have a hard act to follow he's pretty good. >> i agree completely. he took all the wind out of my sails. a couple of points a clarify about the subject property. it is located within the neighborhood commercial zoning district, which allows, as of right, hours of operation from

6:00 a.m. to 2:00 a.m. it is conditionally used to go beyond those hours. outdoor activity area like this is principally permitted and does not require a conditional use authorization. behind it is it -- just down grove, the property has changed to r.n. one, which is a residential zoning district, typically commercial uses are not allowed, his issues like sidewalks eating and hours of operation are not an issue. however, as you know, there are many nonconforming shoes are limited commercial issues speckled throughout the city they do have commercial uses in these residential zoning districts. it allows commercial upper -- commercial uses operate between 6:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. and allows sidewalk seating. that is something that was amended and added by the board of supervisors in 2006, and i think catching up to -- i agree, the relatively recent propagation of sidewalk seating in san francisco.

so those are principally permitted can even in a residential zoning district. i am very familiar with the enforcement case that arose from the previous use. the board of appeals have heard this in 2015 and just about july 15th, 2015, and they allowed for the sidewalk seating to occur, but had two conditions. addressing the concerns that were raised by the neighbors, that the garage doors that they had become snow later than 9:30 p.m. in the permit expire after six months. that was to give later certainty that they would be good operators. i don't know what has happened exactly with that permit or how or not they used it, but we subsequently have enforcement action against them in 2016, we issued a notice of violation at a zoning administrator hearing. we asked them to close the door all the time because it really was a nuisance to have that door open.

they were ignoring our advice. we are going through the enforcement process, they closed we never actually got to compliance other than they had closed, unfortunately, but subsequent to that, we became aware and the neighbors helped make us aware of the change or potential change of ownership of the space. our staff reached out to the previous owner, and if not both owners to say, hey, we have enforcement history here, was do something about it. they did obtain a permit in 2017 that addressed the rollup door issue. it sounds like they have made this -- i think the restaurant opened in late last year. i'm not aware of any complaints about the use. we see a lot of complaints about noise, i don't see a lot of complains about noise related to the sidewalk seating. i do think that d.p.w. does a very good job at dealing with these permits and reading them out, and i think his

presentation today, there were changes made to the project, it is focusing the seating closer towards the commercial corridor. there are appropriate limits on the hours, so i'm not aware of a lot of the complaints, but his phone would ring, not mine. d.p.w. does a good job of implementing this program. i'm available for questions. >> my question goes back to enforcement if there were violations of hours of operation or any of the conditions of approval. who would be the enforcement body, if there finds related to that, who enforces it? it maybe depends on the terms that are being violated are, you know, how quickly or how slowly those violations might result in some kind of penalty to the applicant such that it would encourage them to comply with the terms of the conditions. >> for the sidewalk seating, if they are violating the

conditions that d.p.w. imposed, d.p.w. would be the appropriate agency. if they are operating this past 2:00 a.m., the not only would it be public works issue, it would also be a planning issue, and with abc, as well. you have the trifecta of multiple agencies. >> thank you. >> thank you. is there any public comment on this item? [laughter] >> good evening and welcome. >> thanks. good evening. i live in the house two doors away from the restaurant. first of all, to be honest, i'm a little frightened by the comments that i here today. it seems like the majority of the board is board is willing to side with the business, as long as they have some sort of technology to prevent the sound, if they could shorten their hours, then it says ike the majority of you guys are willing to give the permit.

we, as neighbors, we think this is a noise box. we are ultimately powerless. we don't want to police them, we don't want to have to constantly monitor them and make sure they follow what they did. [please stand by]

. >> this may not look like a serious problem to you guys, but i just want you guys to really imagine the second and put your guys in our hands. when you go home, you get off work, and here's this restaurant of 16 people having drinks and having loud

conversations. i don't want to do that. and that's why we urge you, please, that -- the thing is we have no place to escape. customers can go home, restaurant workers go home. you guys get to go home. but where do we go in we're already at home. so yes, i just really want to put our individuals up at a higher priority than the business issues. >> i have a question. how long have you lived on that block? >> i lived there since october last year. >> so if you're on grove street, the barbecue place is a place that used to be an enclosed barbecue place and now it's an open place. >> oh, i don't hear the

barbecue. but there's a bar that's there, and they will have things that i will hear. having something close to my house monday through friday and saturday and sunday is a different story. >> okay. so you don't hear the barbecue at all? >> the barbecue is further away from me. >> clerk: thank you. is there anymore public comment on this item? >> good evening. >> good evening. i'm greta gall, and i own the building at 1315 to 1321 grove street, and it is a victorian. all of the rooms -- there's four units in that building and all of the rooms are on the street of grove street? it's a victorian so i can't change the windows.

they need to remain the original ones, which they're sing sing single paned, and they're not double ones. i've gotten a lot more complaints from tenants about the noise and asking if we can do anything about the windows in the front of the house, which i cannot do? so i'm all about supporting did i see -- divisadero street and the development of this community, but it's been mentioned that this business is on grove street, it's not on divisadero street? it's all encroaching on divisadero street. the back of the building that's a storage unit, the back of it

is insulated. it's not on the side that's open that shoots down grove street. so as you all know, voices do travel? and so i'm -- so the other thing is there's, you know, people come and smoke and in my stairwells to go down that's -- always filled with cigarette butts and things, so a lot of people come out to smoke and it's right in front of my house. and the other point is i don't really know how these tables could be approved, that there's enough space there. i know that was already established, but there's a light post, there'si an electricity post, there's trees. i don't know how there's going to be enough there. so i am just asking for the 14 people that live in that building that voice regular

concerns to me about the noise, that you take that into consideration and to not approve the tables on grove street. thank you. >> commissioner honda: thank you. and by the way, the planning department -- there is replaceable windows that are approved for historic windows. >> okay. you want to give me money to do that? >> clerk: thank you. is there any other public comment? >> hi. good evening. i'm also a resident on grove street, just two buildings down, and as the discussion has been going on this evening, i am absolutely not in favor of having the sidewalk seating permit on grove street. as has been evidenced,

divisadero is well activated. it is really nice to be able to turnaround the corner and have some peace and quiet, so i would really just urge the board to consider the appeal. thank you. >> commissioner honda: thank you. >> clerk: thank you. any other public comment? okay. seeing none, we will move on to rebuttal. mr. laurent? you have three minutes. >> great. thank you. commissioner honda, the 4505 outdoor seating area is completely acoustically insulated. that shipping container blocks -- it actually blocks

some of the noise from divisadero from coming down grove street, so it is a lower acoustic profile for their residence. i want to respond to something that the counselor -- or the friend of anu brought up, that they're revitalizing the neighborhood. this is something that you hear a lot. the revitalization is coming from you, the neighbors, the city planners, from people that's using their space. the argument that it's a blessing of commercial activity is disingenuous. they followed us here. the neighborhood was popping before -- they got here 1.5 years ago. outdoor activity, we're talking about one of the most fun neighborhoods to live in the city. i've lived there 12 years. i moved in when it did start to change, and i've been happy and supportive of what that

neighborhood has been turning into, but by no means are we throwing our right to our quiet enjoyments of our apartments out the window. the other thing that's been revitaliz revitalized is our rents. so i guess the more we enjoy our apartments, the more they feel it's okay to encroach on our quiet time. yeah, i don't really buy that. i guess that's about it -- oh, anut had brought up they had installed garage doors working with us. that was after i filed a b.b.n. following a suspension. their hand was very much forced, and as a retaliation against this, two days after that issuance -- after that

b.b b.b.n. was issued, i got a call from adriano who said look, you lost. can you ask your friends to withdraw your alcohol protests? i said sure, and that was the day that they added to the floor plan the additional outdoor seating. so this is all a part of an unfortunate contentious and dishonest behavior pattern, and for that reason, i feel very little trust when it comes to negotiating with them in the future or about hearing that they're going to things to work with people. they've really burned that bridge. so any way, that's my rebuttal. >> vice president swig: so let me ask you a question since i brought it up. is there any compromise in your world if the seating was -- if

you were comfortable with the seating being removed at 9:00 p.m. and -- or is there a compromise in your world with regard to reducing the -- the amount of seating from 16 down to 8 or something -- >> so there are a couple areas where i would be willing to work with. not in the hours, but in the presence of acoustic insulation. a compromise for me is what are the motions to put some kind of acoustic barrier between the seating area and us. not -- like i said. i mean, how long is the nuisance or the disturbance going on? i'm not going to get into that. i want to -- someone to say we're putting a motion -- i'm not sure of the department, but we're making a motion to have trees planted long the

divisadero, or not even trees, maybe some bushes, something that blocks some of the sound, something that makes it a little more appealing to sit there. when 4505 opened up their area, first thing he did, he had a meeting and assured us that the storage container would block more sound, and they're right. in fact, they've moved to not have acoustic insulation when it comes to the windows. so i haven't heard one thing about this where we're going to lower the burden of this or lessen the blow. to what i was just saying about the sort of bad faith that's emerged in this relationship, i'm very had esitant to leave

to management discretion -- >> vice president swig: i'm asking you a direct question and so the direct question is with regard to either the -- a time restriction -- and i proposed one, which was -- which was echoed by my fellow commissioner and kind of tightened up further, last serving at 8:00 and we're off the streets at 9:00, or i'm adding another one, a reduction in seats. >> a reduction of seats would be first and foremost. >> vice president swig: give me -- this is your shot. >> wiggle room, a reduction in seats i think would be more effective in limiting the number of hours than what's going on. >> commissioner honda: what number?

>> vice president swig: yea he's giving you an opportunity to weigh-in. >> i think six tables of two tops or four tables of two stops. >> so eight seats. >> eight seats. >> and you don't care that it goes to -- >> oh, i want it limited. >> so as far as time, though. >> as far as time, if they were completely closing down by -- if they were -- dinner was over at 8:00, that would be preferable to 9:00. >> vice president swig: okay. great. i appreciate your direction. that's why we have these hearings. thank you. >> thank you. >> clerk: thank you. we will now hear from the permit holder. >> good evening members of the board. i'm rick warren. i'm the lawyer who handled the

a.b.c. hearing. that's 100% of my practice, is representing alcohol licensees. several things. there would have been no opportunity for any protest whatsoever at the a.b.c. process if the outdoor patio was not part of the original plan. the argument that this was adds as some kind of retribution or reaction to a complaint about operable windows haven't -- having to be made inoperable is a misstatement of the fact. this always had an outdoor patio as part of the plans submitted to the a.b.c. it was that expansion of the premises from the urbana space. it was the transfer of an existing license and an existing space. secondly, the applicants here,

b b barvali has a proven track record of working with their neighbors. if you look on the photographs on the back that were submitted as part of our brief, we submitted photos of five other restaurants that this restaurant manager owns and operates. the hours of 10:00, we have to have the tables and chairs off the sidewalk by 10:00. if you -- if you want to tell people that they can no longer be seated after 8:00, you're getting to people like me who do not begin to think about eating dinner until after 8:00. you're forcing us to go inside where it's noisy instead of sitting outside where we can have a meal with our friends and enjoy a quiet conversation. the second things is the permit

as -- the second thing is the permit as approved and the a.b.c. license is whenever there are patrons on the patio and consuming alcohol, they must have an employee there to monitor their behavior. they will also monitor the consumption. that person is probably going to be taking orders, as well, so they can track and monitor consumption, so any concern about overconsuming i think is mitigated by that. when we submitted this, we had two other tables. d.p.w. suggested we give those up, given that because they are closer to the residence, we said absolutely. no question about it. we just said that's a good idea. no doubt about it. i think the permit should be approved as it's submitted. >> clerk: thank you. >> commissioner honda: so got a question for you, counselor. so as you heard in the previous

testimony, our president asked some questions about give and take here. you heard what the appellant said. where are you and your clients at? >> i think it's important if you're going to have a vibrant patio seating at all to have the hours where no new patrons can be seated past 9:00, and it will be completely cleared off by 10:00. our policy is one of our attachments to my brief. >> commissioner honda: it's a pretty simple question, counselor. >> i'm getting to that. we would go giving up one table, so three tables with 12 patrons, and we would give up the table closest to the residents. >> clerk: okay. thank you. mr. slocum, do you have anything further?

[inaudible] >> clerk: okay. mr. sanchez, anything further? no? okay. so commissioners, this matter's submitted. >> we going to start with a motion? >> let's have some discussion because we have some -- what i've heard as far as compromise is a reduction of one table and also in the argument section, a willingness of closing down by 9:00, so i'm going to combine those two. >> yeah, i would agree with that. you know, to the residents that are here, we are sympathetic to the quiet enjoyment of your homes and the places that you're living. we also want to balance the needs of not just our business community but the communities that are patronizing the commercial district. they are really important parts of our city, as well, so that's why we want to listen to compromise and see if we can find a happy medium.

i am supportive of the more restrictive hours in part. if you guys do do a good job, and you are supporting, i imagine we would see the support of the neighbors. if not, i would imagine that we'll be seeing mr. slocum and the neighborhood again. >> i have a question for the permit holder. >> permit holder? >> i think you can probably answer it. the 11:00 to 3:00 on the weekends, is that sort of normal brunch hours? >> yes. >> so there's no incentive to you to let it go to 4:00 or

start at 10:00? >> i think we'll keep it as is. >> i was here when this case came before us four years ago. i was very reluctant and hesitant and did not want to grant the permit just because i did feel as president swig said that you're getting commercial encroachment into the quiet lives of people that didn't really plan on having that. to the member of the public that says that we should think about how she is, we do all the time. this is a very serious situation. we put lots of time and effort into it, and unfortunately, not all parties are going to be happy at the end of the day. i remember that place when it was a plant store, you know, before it was a restaurant, before it was anything else. so -- yeah, and it was not a pleasant place 25 years ago as some people have said.

i think that as the representative from d.p.w. mentioned, this is a per, and if they violate -- permit, and if they violate that in any way, it can be revoked. and it is required to be renewed on a regular basis. so if they are not good policyholders or good neighbors -- in fact i'm sorry you might have to police this, but this is your neighborhood. this is a trial-and-error process that we unfortunately have to abide by. i'm in line with rick and -- regarding to limit one less table, table closest to the parties above as well as the hours of last seating at 8:00 and cleaned up by 9:00. i'm also -- i don't think that i would condition it or continue it, but i'd like to see some type of sound mitigation, and that's to your

advantage because if there is no sound mitigation and the neighbors complain, you may not get a renewal for your permit next year. >> yeah, i -- i was having that argument with myself with regard to whether we should condition, and i think that's a -- that's really up to -- >> that's a slippery slope. >> that's a slippery slope. and the permit holder understands the -- if you get it for one year, you do a good job, you get it for another year. if you get it for one year, and you do a great job, and you say we want that table back, that's an opportunity if you do a great job. one of the things that you you may want to do voluntarily is sound attenuation by putting up some kind of sound blockage. we don't want to mandate that, but we do want to notice that

d. d.p.w. is here. they're going to see you, and you do a great job, you come in next year, and you get a permit for all 16 seats. so let's start crawling, and i hope that you do a great job, and if you choose to put in some sound attenuation, that might help you get to 16. >> we're hoping that this will go forward. >> i have a question. i want to clarify the 9:00 or the 10:00. looking at what i think was the d.p.w. order, no patio seating will be allowed after 9:00. patio should be completely vacant by 9:45. if there are patrons outside, they would be asked to move

inside. what is your current understanding of the restrictions on the permit of what customers at what time? are there no customers at a certain time when you have to clear it out. >> no customers, no employees, no tables and chairs, stacked to the side. we have to close down the service station and have everyone inside by 10:00. >> okay. so if we move it an hour, just changes all that by an hour. >> yeah. >> i have a -- i have a question for public works, just to clarify. when is this permit -- when is the one year up? do you know when -- if this would be issued, when would the one year be up? i want to figure out how residents would stay informed of the -- kind of what's going on in the background. >> is there