as long as the city can secure hotel rooms, that that should go forward. so that was -- that was my understanding. so it didn't seem to me to make sense to do an order if the city has the capacity to negotiate and get hotel rooms as the board of supervisors has also passed an ordinance, as well. >> supervisor ronen: well, dr. arag aragon, i completely disagree with your statement. but second, you have a unique

power to order individuals that walk out on the street and may someday need help in the hospitals have decided not to issue that order in the past seven weeks. i want to know why because it doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't make sense to my constituents, both housed and unhoused. if you walk the streets of the city, it doesn't make sense to any of those thousands of people that are obviously dangerously camping in the street right next to each other with no access to hygiene. so i don't want you to hide behind the city attorney, i want to know why you haven't issued a health order requiring intervention on the basis of public health facility. you just shutdown the entire

economy of san francisco, and you were willing to do that, and i stood by you, and i stand by you in that decision. you have not been willing to do that for the homeless population, and i don't understand it. we as supervisors have done everything in our power to try to force the situation, but we're not the public health officer. that's you, and i want to understand why you haven't issued that order. >> i'll explain it to you the best way i could, and that's really all i'm prepared to say at the moment. >> supervisor ronen: well, that's really disappointing, dr. aragon. i have nothing more. >> president yee: okay. thank you, supervisor ronen. i'll say it mildly. i don't disagree with supervisor ronen. supervisor safai? >> supervisor safai: thank you, president yee. thank you, dr. aragon. thank you for -- let me just say that you -- for all the

questions that i have had, all the ones that i have funneled your way during this crisis, i really appreciate your accessibility and your response and your ability to explain things in a clear manner, joining us for our town halls, and for working so hard to get this information out as quickly as possible. it's been tremendous. i want to ask you, and if i missed it, i'm sorry because i know that there's been a lot of questions. i want to talk a little bit about our skilled nursing facilities. i know i've talked to you about this last time. i know we've had some conversations about when testing would begin in an aggressive manner, and when i see that new york is -- has

issued -- the governor of new york has issued that all persons in these facilities would be tested twice a week, and they would be moving aggressively, and they then changed their orders that said they would no longer allow covid-positive patients to be transferred into these nursing facilities. and then, when i read the statistics in the state that over half the people that have died have been in these skilled nursing facilities, it makes me wonder why and how we haven't moved a little bit more aggressively. i know you said you're still debating about the types of swabs and so on, but what can you do -- i know you've told us recently that the orders have changed, and now, all the staff in these facilities are going to be tested. but we put out on sfcity, testsf that people can get

testing at 7 and brandon without an appointment, or any person can get testing on pier 32. i'm just wondering how and why we haven't been able to move more aggressively in our skilled facilities. this is a big concern in the entire jewish community >> yes, thank you. it is our long-term care facilities, especially the s.n.f.s, is our highest priority. and i think what you'll see if you go back and look at all the orders that were done on skilled nursing facilities, strom screening, temperature checking, we made it at laguna honda, the residents that could prior leave, are not allowed to leave. so what we did -- what we did early on with laguna honda

because that is the biggest location, we asked the c.d.c. and the california department of public health to come in and actually develop a framework and an approach that we could provide to long-term care facilities, and we've gone beyond that, and we're requiring testing for all staff and all patients. >> supervisor safai: i know that you guys have consistently changed your orders. it just seems that we're not moving aggressively enough, given the statistics of people that have died, and i just wonder how we can move more aggressively. >> yeah. so let me just real quickly tell you our goal. our goal is to get every two weeks of testing. it's big logistically, and the health department has committed to making sure the testing gets done. other places will pass the orders and then just expect the

skilled nursing facilities to do it. what we've heard is they don't necessarily have the financial resources or expertise to do that. so we're stepping up to do that, and if we see that it needs to be done for frequently, we'll move in that direction. but we agree with you -- and i'm actually getting some texts that i need to leave because i needed to leave at 6:00, and it's 6:15. that all your questions? >> supervisor safai: well, i did have one more questions, and that's abaho sphere, and how it's going to be distributed throughout all the hospitals. >> i know our staff is looking into that, because there's been changes how that drug is going to be distributed.

we're getting instruction from the state, and i believe something may have just been distributed within the last 24 hours, i'll send it to you so you have an idea of how it's going to be distributed within california. >> supervisor safai: more specifically in san francisco. >> yeah. you'll want to know where it's going and where it's not going. >> supervisor safai: okay. thank you. >> president yee: thank you. there's two more names added, but supervisor walton, do you have a quick question? >> supervisor walton: i know that supervisor fewer had a few questions, so i'll pass it to her. >> president yee: yes. supervisor fewer? >> supervisor fewer: yes. dr. aragon, i can say i understand the frustration. once, when you came before us, you said early, the unhoused population, the people in s.r.o.s, they are our main concern, yet, we have not seen

a public health order, and therefore, we don't know the plan or direction what is happening to these people. i think also in the recovery, but not only the recovery, but as go forward in the next couple of months, we don't know what the plan is. if we're adopting a strategy of safe sleeping sites, that's something we should be doing right now. we can't leave it to people in the bayview, to leave it in their hands. this is leaving a whole population, and we're talking about thousands of people without a direction, and we as supervisors don't have direction of where you're headed with this. i think that it's -- it is disingenuous, quite frankly, to say. this is a population from the very beginning that we've had concern about, and not had a public health order, not one

direction. we also say to people, thousands of people, in a very middle class way, wash your hands 20 times -- for 20 seconds every time. we hear from public health officials, yet they don't even have their clothes in their house. they have to undress before they get into their own homes. when we are saying these basic things to folks, and yet, in the unhoused population, we don't even have a place for them to wash their hands, i would say that we are looking at it through a wrong paradigm. we are looking at it through a middle class lens, when actually, quite frankly, where we are going to see this outbreak, where we are going to see saving lives of people, it is in this paradigm where they don't have these options. we don't know what's going to happen, and even when we start to loosen up the restrictions,

these people still have not been quarantined. so i join my colleagues in wondering what is really happening and what will really happen? we have not been shared on a plan, we don't know what the plan is. i actually, quite frankly, think that during this public health crisis, that should be a public health mandate. so that is not a question, that is just my opinion, and i'm happy to have a private offline conversation with you about this, but thank you. >> i appreciate the honest feedback. thank you. >> president yee: dr. aragon. >> i'm going to have to -- i'm going to have to run, so i don't want to be rude, and i know that we still have to -- >> president yee: well, dr. aragon, excuse me, there's been this question over and over again, and you're not going to be able to answer it, of course, today. and you're at least, i think

for next week, you should start off answering this question, what the plan is, if any, and if there's a reason for it. and i want to give at least one more person a chance who hasn't asked a question at all, even though you're way over. >> no, it's okay. >> president yee: okay. supervisor peskin. -- supervisor preston. >> supervisor preston: thank you, president yee. i want to share my concern of my colleagues. in your explanation, i heard a reason why you felt you couldn't issue an order on kmo kmo on commandeering hotels, but that

is only part of the issue that supervisors ronen and fewer has raised. my question is, you came before us on march 17, you said that we could do everything right in our response here, but if we don't address our congregate living situations and homeless people, that we could have an explosion of cases. i think you were right then and would like to see the orders that my colleagues have referenced address homeless people. but my question isn't looking backwards as to why you haven't. i'd actually just like a direct answer as to whether you plan to issue any health orders regarding homelessness on the issues that have been raised: social distancing among homeless people, the availability of rest rooms, showers, hand washing stations

for homeless people? are you planning on issuing a health order on those issues? >> yeah. so everything that you're describing to me are really policy decisions and strategic options, and so what i want to do is i want to just convene with dr. colfax and our executive team and really come back and decide how we can respond in a holistic way. i'll work with president yee to make sure that we can come back and discuss this further. >> supervisor preston: thank you. >> supervisor peskin: mr. president, i just want to remind all of us, and i'm sorry for jumping in and keeping dr. aragon, but i want to just raise the original contention that dr. aragon presented at the beginning. and i admit that san francisco is unique because we are a city and county, but the reality is this: the city attorney believes, and i share this

belief, that along with the other 57 counties, it is the legislative branch that appoints this position. and while it is true that as a doctor in the health department, dr. aragon works for dr. colfax and is part of the executive branch. it doesn't actually have to be that way. that's not the way it is in the other 57 counties, and the city attorney says that should we desire to have dr. aragon be a completely independent person who does not have to take marching orders from dr. colfax -- not that i'm saying that dr. colfax is giving him bad marching orders -- we have that power and ability. so i think we really, for the health of the body politic and communications amongst decision makers and communicators and the public, we need to change the dialogue between the chief

health officer and this legislative elected body, and i just want to leave everybody with this thought. >> i'm really going to have to run because my wife is going to be very upset with me. president yee, is it okay if i -- >> clerk: mr. president, you might be muted. >> i just want to be excused appropriately. >> president yee: i will excuse you as soon as i finish my sentence. >> okay. thank you. >> president yee: so basically, you answered some of the questions, and thank you very much for doing that, and there's some outstanding ones that were on the list that you didn't get a chance to get to. i think there's some fundamental frustration or questions that we have

frustrations about that's going to come back over and over again. you need to have a plan when you come back on how to do this, because it's not going to go away. the people on the streets aren't going to go away by themselves, and the danger that's afforded to them isn't going to go away, and we can't come back every single time and say, we're thinking about it, and we have a plan. okay. thank you for staying a lot later than we asked you to. >> okay. thank you very much. have a good evening. >> president yee: okay. thank you very much. okay. thank you, colleagues, and i will continue talking with dr. aragon and dr. colfax to try to get to some of the questions

that you have presented, and i will now adjourn this update. thank you very much. >> supervisor peskin: okay. thank you.

>> in meeting is called to order at 11:01 a.m. the small business commission thanks sf gov for viewing on livestreamed at sftv.org. members of the public who will be calling in, the number is (888)273-3658 and the access code is 210-7452. when prompted, dial 1-0 to. added to the speaker line. the auto prompt will indicate callers are entering the question and answer time and this is the public comment period. if you call in before public comment is called, you'll be added to the cue. when you're called, mute the

device you're listening to the meeting on. please show the business slide. sharky, you're muted. >> can you hear me now? perfect. today we will start with the reminder that the small business commission is the official public forum to voice your opinion and concerns about policies that affect the economic vitality of small businesses in san francisco. also, that the office of small business is the best place to get answers about doing business in san francisco during the

local emergency. if you need assistance with small business matters, particularly at this time, you can find us online or via telephone and as always, our services are free of charge. before we go to item one, i would like to start by thanking sf gov tv for livestreaming this and please call item number one. >> item one is role call. (role call). >> commissioners adams is absent and commissioner duly is not yet on.

>> mr. president, you have a core rum. please call item number two. >> small business recommendation for recovery and rebuilding, discussion and possible action items.

>> we will provide on the economic response to the local emergency and i think one thing that's important to emphasize to the community, a lot of times locally we talk about a recovery and i think from the perspective that the community that we should think more in terms of building. we want to make something better than it was before because what we had before wasn't great. so simply recovering to where we were was not good enough and we need to do better. so along those lines, we ask for comment to pass on to the economic recovery task force and we've received a number of public comment submissions on the matter. we convened the meter toda meeto reflect back on that and from many of you in the small business community. our goal is to submit a robust set of recommendations to the economic recovery task force and that is informed by both last

meeting's discussion, public comment and input from everyone in the small business community. so we want to thank everyone who has provided your feedback and your advice and your comments and has helped to inform this document. this is an ongoing process, the first of many suggestions that we anticipate making to the economic recovery task force as that task force does its work. staff has started us off with a draft that you've all received and hopefully you've had the time to review and our director is also available for questions. with that, commissioners, are there any questions regarding the draft set of recommendations? >> commissioner, i have a question. >> i just saw that. please. >> i don't think that we should

be limiting these recommendations just to the work of the economic recovery task force. with respect to the task force which was an amazing group of city and small business leaders, it is meeting monthly and it's first set of recommendations are not due to be drafted until august. and hundreds of businesses are facing imminent closure. and i know we've all talked about this, but i want to be careful because i think we've done a great job coming up with proposals and you and i both know, some of these things need to worked on yesterday and i don't want the work of the recovery task force to slow us down in any way. >> i completely agree and support your position here. of course, the framing for our suggestions is the initial set of recommendations to the economic recovery task force and the task force has said during their meetings that particularly

comments by rodney fong, the cochair, this is a living document and we'r the city is nt going to wait until the final recommendations are made in august before acting. and so i do believe the recommendations that we make today can be taken into account and acted upon today and the sooner we get the recommendations in front of the folks from the task force and the city at a large, i think the sooner the city can act and i would hope the city not wait until august to act. so let me ask you a question. are you suggesting that this document should be tested on other recommendations for this task force? >> yes. i think it should be entitled

proposal to save small businesses in san francisco. the title is less important to me than how we present it. in your opening that you just did so eloquently, you made it clear that this is about the task force and i just feel like that should be a part of what we're doing here, but i just don't want it to be too tied to the task force if the task force has a timeline that we might differ with. >> i'm open to that, actually. and i think -- i guess a question would be, do you want to talk about the proposals first and then save a conversation about how we should title it at the end? or do we want tuke about how we title it now? let me just say broadly, the goal that you're orienting towards, i'm in complete alignment with. >> let's talk about it afterwards, then.

>> ok, great. and any other comment, commissioner ukudio? >> not at this time. >> commissioner azunis? >> hi, everybody. thanks for being here and the recommendations look great. i agree these are definitely guidance that we can keep on file both for our internal communications with the city and the state. i had a question about the reopening support. so i know that some categories of businesses have been deemed by the state to be allowed to reopen for curbside and whatnot. and my question is, how is that process being decided? who are the determining parties

of deciding that? and what warran are the means ft appeal process or contesting that preference in our document? and do we have any say around that? because this i there are some categories of businesses not included and wondering what the recourse is for that? thank you. >> so obviously, i agree with that question and that's why we're putting it on there. i think from the perspective of small business community, what everybody is hundred gerring f a clear idea of how businesses are being opened so we can track our progress in real-time. i think we would all like an idea of who is making the decision. as far as i know, it's with the department of public health, but

some guidance on who to talk to is helpful. and i also think that there needs to be an appeal process. i think i'm ok to explain that the task force sent out an email this morning for our next morning and they have heard that concern expressed repeatedly throughout the business community and they're now expediting the gathering of information on what it takes to open, how businesses should open and what sort of criteria and factors should the city be looking at. and, perhaps, it would be appropriate for the commission to dive into that into more detail, specifically how do we open and how is that

accomplished safely and quickly. i'm a little concern on the timeline because the task force is having that meeting on thursday. i'm worried that the commission won't be able to meet again soon enough to really have input into that. we could amend more public details and submissioner azunis, you're dead on the money and correct, that the community is not getting enough communication and that's making it very difficult to plan and making it very difficult to predict the future and understand how we're moving forward. >> yes, the department of public health states on any city level, there's not an objective body

and that will be done in a way that may not make sense. i feel like there's definitely a question around who they're deeming essential and who they're not. who they're deeming can be open in the next phase. >> right. and so, you know, we can potentially -- as i said, we can amend to and flush out the details more if you have immediate input. or we can leave it as a broad-level concern that's expressed now, which i think the task force has already heard. >> are there other business categories that you guys have been reached out to who are not included in this next wave who

we can contract who the constituents are that are concerned by this? >> this is regina, the director of the office of small business. the office of small business as the hotline for small businesses, and we are definitely getting calls and tracking the various business senters. sectors that are not either considered or clearly articulated and so we're working to get clarification as to whether certain businesses fall within some of the categories in the phase two opening. >> great. >> i think there are a lot of businesses and sectors with a lot of questions. i'm sorry? commissioner, did i interrupt

you? >> that's great, director. if we could, as a commission, get some of the categories that are not included and raising concern, that would be great. >> , we'll providyes, we'll proh that update. >> and i think looking at the different sectors, including manufacturing, retail and i just think clarity needs to be provided overall so that folks can understand and we need to emphasize that however we can. ok, was there any other commissioner comment on the draft document? by the way, for the members of the public, if you go to the small business commission

website, click on meetings and then for may 11th, you'll sigh supporting documents and click on that and then you'll see a link for draft, initial set of recommendations to the economic recovery task force and if you can click on that, you'll see the documents that we're all referencing. i'm wondering, should we be -- i mean, it would take awhile to read these allowed. are we going to skip reading these allowed and just rely on the document being online? >> until we have a lot more in the agenda, i don't see why we wouldn't read them aloud.

>> i'm reading it aloud from my phone. >> you also have such a wonderful voice. [ laughter ] >> flattery will get you everywhere. [ laughter ] >> i just want to point out that i'm trying to keep up with you on a sartorial level. i was hoping to get some comments about that today. [ laughter ] >> maybe later. [ laughter ] >> this is the initial draft and it will take me a little while to read through this. in th the category of general support, we would like microbusinesses are included in relief packages and prioritized. put anwe would like all regulaty agencies to respect the rolling-back recommendations that are out of date and onerous

or otherwise business development without compromising software. under the category of communications, we would like to ensure that all guidance and resources are available in languages other than english at the time they are released so that all groups are able to accept the information at the same time and folks that do not speak english are not disadvantaged. sf gov accessed via mobile devices and pushed to medium. a streamline communication strategy needs to be put in place. each business registered with the city should be opted into a communication's line that provides the critical information that it is published. businesses can opt out.

whoever is having background conversations, if you could please mute your microphone, it would be very much appreciated. under communications, i believe we should have clear communications regarding the criteria for opening and should is making those decisions regarding what businesses shall open and what sectors they're in. >> noted. >> reopening support, under the category of reopening support, expedite applications received by regulatory agencies that are associated with small businesses and commercial corridors, mcds and ncts and so that is neighborhood commercial districts and neighborhood commercial -- what is t again?

>> transit districts. >> that's what i thought. all reopening allowances by determined by the state and san francisco department of public health should be subject to an appeal's process where businesses may make an appeal to reopen. this is an important point. not all businesses are the same or identical and many of the policies that have come out is one size fits all and not everything is the same. all reopening guidance shall be made available in a timely matter, at least a week in advance and safety protocols and signage shall be made available to businesses via tool kits which can be accessible online. the city should purchase ppe at both costs that small businesses would purchase from the city at a lower cost and lower volume than if they had to purchase it on their own. we should ensure equitable and affordable access to broad-band internet to small businesses. and under the category of dbi,

department of building inspection -- >> sorry to interrupt, but for the signage piece, perhaps we should add that the reopening guidance, perhaps we should add there would be a physical place for people to pick up signage for people who don't have access to a computer. i know some small businesses do not. >> agreed. dominica, did you get that? >> yes. >> great. under the category of dbi -- by the way, all commissioners, if while i'm talking about this, if you hear of snag you would like to add, just raise your voice. it's ok to interrupt me. it's going to be too awkward and difficult for me to recognise everyone. you're good, manny, and i want to encourage everyone else to use the same process. dbi soft story, the existing compliance deadline of septembee

are 463 properties that still need to complete the work and we would like the deadline to be extended by two years for properties that have not started the construction and commercial spaces activated b occupied by e tenant. should bars and restaurants be closed for another month or longer? we would like to incentivize property owners to prioritize requirements and for businesses that need to temporarily shut. it might be possible via text credits and this is particularly essentially for restaurants, bars and places of entertainment. and if i'm mingling the words a little bit here, they're written better than they sound reading aloud and i'm trying to turn this into understandable english. under fee mitigation, waive all

fees by regulatory agencies, dbi, san francisco fire department and sfpd for a calendar year and we would like to waive all penalties that are not related for a calendar year. and a waiver of application and referral fees collected by all regulatory agencies for one calendar year, waive business registration fees for small business for one year. refund or apply a credit for permits that businesses paid for but did not use, examples would be a contractor parking permit and dpw temporary permits and entertainment related permits such as limited live performance and events. these folks bought and paid for permits and they should be able to use those credits at a future date. waive the unsecured property tax for small businesses. under the category of land use, we would like to allow for more

flexibility for businesses who are seeking to move in order to reduce monthly commercial rent costs or for other economic reasons. for example, waive the conditional use authorization requirement if one exists and supplement with the neighborhood notification requirement. all temporary use authorizations to be granted for additional flex use purposes which would support a business' need to pivot and no application should be necessary. businesses will be given implicit authorization to add additional and reasonable uses. if complaints are made by the community, businesses should be required to fill out an online authorization form. this is an important concept that we're promoting which is implicit authorization and let's reduce the hassles businesses have to do to get going again and to pivot to a working business model. let's give them implicit

authorization and it can be withdrawn by it community if it's not working. create a one-stop shop specifically for small business support where representatives from all regulatory agencies, planning dph, sfmta, fire and oewd may process all permits, fees and applications. this exists to some extent now but big business is in the same room as small business and it is time consuming for small business which can move much faster through this process and we're asking for a specific lane for small business. temporarily extend hours that businesses are allowed to operate by neighbor corridor, provide technical assistance to businesses interested in pivoting and how they can successfully do so, expend the flex use legislation that is currently available and, i think, two districteds to be

applicable city-wide and liberalize use alone corridors o stimulate new development. amend and expand the definition of formula retail to relax current restrictions and relax restrictions on exterior signs to allow for multiple projecting and non-propertying signs, all temporary exterior signage should be implicitly permitted. temporarily suspend discretionary revenue for one year and temporarily suspend the need for conditional use authorizations for one year. encourage the city to create plazas and open spaces wherever possible, including potentially streets, alleyways, sidewalks and parking lots so that businesses can expand their operations. and sfmta in coordination with dpw should propose the first set of sites this would be applicable within a month's time.

under the category of evaluating existing employer obligations, we would like to look at and potentially reshape hcso. the program should be suspended for one to three years and eva evaluated for any issues raised in its absence. under the category of commercial rent and mortgage assistance, the city should incentivize property owners who choose to abate rent owned to their commercial tenants and an example, allow property owners to depicket from grocery seats thgross receiptsduring the entif emergency that is in place.

stop third-party platforms from high-commission fees and adding businesses to the platform without their permission. under the category of funding, a reopening fund should be created for small businesses to access assistance for a fund item such as ppe and reopening fee expose any othefees andthis would worke resiliency fund by oewd but with a $5,000 limit per business and what with a starting bucket of $1 million in the fund. we would like to create a grant program where merchant corridor organizations could be awarded up to $10,000 in funding for

corridor beautification projects, including the feasibility -- this would not include, a separate item. it looked like it's a part of it but it's just a separate bullet part. explore a rainy day fund to be used to provide grants and loans to small local businesses at times of emergency. and in fund would be between 50 and $100 million. and request an immediate injection of funding to the legacy business program, as well as fast-track the approval process to get necessary funds into legacy business' hands. under the category of economic evaluation, data collection and analysis. one thing to note for the members of the public, both policy makers and the commission rely heavily on data for make decisions about how we move forward and how we allocate our resources. this will be more critical important now than ever because

we have significant budget deficit expose we'rs. so in order to address problems and issues, the first part is, we need to actually measure what those issues are and what those problems are. so the issue of data collection is actually really critical to bthe downstream impact of how we address the problems. if we don't measure it, we can't fix it. the next section is what we're measuring and what the city should measure. so first, the monthly number of businesses that have closed since march 13th, 2020 to december 31st of 2021 by industry, naics code and neighborhood commercial district and employee size, including self-employed sole prio propries

and the employees one to five and six to ten, 11 to 25, 26 to 50, 51-100, 101 to 500 and 500 employees or more. we would like, also, to be measured the loss in taxes paid, including sales, payroll tax, unsecured property tax by businesses and the number of businesses opening by industry, business formation and employee size and open date. the number of businesses that access technical assistance from the city in any form. we would like to require the delivery acts to provide information regarding the delivery sale's trends. we would like to track any of the relevant data to the various spaces returning to normal operations as that relevant data becomes clear. we would like to obtain the number of ppee i.d. l advances in average amounts that businesses received, the number

granted per bank and the average loan amount. with would like to know how many businesses used credit businesses and would like to know the average length of time for businesses to receive the ppe and eidl loans and measures of storefronts or commercial rents, non-referral and personal mortgage costs. and i believe that is it for our draft documents. so with that, do we have any other -- before we go to public comment, any other commissioners suggestions or comment? >> this is cynthia.

>> hi, cynthia. >> hi. i just wanted to say for you and manny and everything, thank you so much for putting all of this together. this is such a comprehensive document and i really appreciate that you read it outloud. i didn't get to say this earlier, but now that you've read it all outloud, this is a really substantial piece of work that i think is really important for the next phase of rebuilding the city's small business environment. and my questions are kind of -- historically, because i've only been on the commission for a couple of months now, historically, has the commission put together documents like this before? and if so, what is generally the steps afterwards? because i had a conversation with someone recently where we kind of talked in general about commissions and advisory

councils and things like that and oftentimes what happens, it seems like is that people spend a tremendous amount of work on something, put a lot of thought into it and then you kind of never hear about it outside of that meeting or outside of that council. and i'm just kind of wondering what next steps historically have been there and what next steps could we take as commissioners and as the public to be able to amplify the work that you've already put into this document? >> you know, that's a great question and that's always a burning question, right, which is when the commission has work product that's issued, how can we be certain that that product will be taken seriously? i guess historically in the past, the commission has issued resolutions. generally, my overall sense from just reviewing past meetings and

minutes, historically the commission has primarily been reacting to legislation that was issued and rarely initiating action. and so, with the hearings or the meets that we've had last month regarding a letter to the mayor, recommending proposals to pelosi and this now new meeting or new set of proposals to the economic recovery task force, we're certainly taking a pretty, i think, relatively to how the commission was structured previously, you know, a proactive state. but i think a lot of that is just a function of the emergency we now found ourselves in. we don't have a choice and we have to be more proactive and so that has given us the luxury of being more proactive.

and i know director dikendrezy can provide more comments about how things worked in the past because i, myself, have been on the commission about a year and a half. and so i can't speak authoritatively on the history. but i'll say this, with respect to the economic recovery task force and with respect to how this document is treated at city government, i think first and foremost is, the burden is on us to make it impactful. and that's our responsibility. it's other people's jobs to pay attention to what to do and read it and hang on to every word and turn it into policy. the burden is on us to raise it to their attention and to raise it as a whole to advocate for

ourselves and to the extent that they agree with the draft recommendations and i believe generally, most of them do, because that's where these regulars came from. and i will also say with respect to the economic recovery task force, the commission has throwe members on the task force, including myself, yourself, commissioner dewey and carthina. as commissioners that serve on that task force, it's the responsibility to encourage the task force to -- prin (inaudible). ( indiscernible).

>> they need to become familiar with it as we move it to this next phase in the process. as i said before, we have to advocate internally and externally and as commissioners and advocate as a community. and so with that, director, i think you have some comments about the context expect histore history prior that. >> thank you, president laguana. president huey, to answer your question, while the commission over its history has been responsive to legislation and drafting resolutions, fortunately, except for when the last economic crisis happened, it happened in a very different

way and the impact of small businesses was definitely there but sort of spread out and the response was different. and so, to a substantive document like this, i would say the commission has not created a substantive document like this as it relates to what we're going to see with the city and the country, kind of a recovery rebuilding over a long period of time. and so, in terms of what happens with this document and moving forward, a couple things come to my mind in terms of what the commission can do. one is having a standing agenda item in terms of reports to the commission on items in this document in addition to reports and feedback that the commissioners can provide who

are sitting in on the task force and so what are updates. and also, there are different departments that many of these items will be dependent upon in terms of making it happen. so the commission can invite those departments to its meetings, to how have the discussion and work together on how best to implement these recommendations and those are a couple of suggestions. and then the commission can make a determination in terms of at what point would you like to have a summary report as to the recommendations in this document to kind of close the loop when it's time and in terms of what was accomplished and its impact. from the recommendations in this

particular document and any future recommendations the commission may make. i hope that answers your questions. >> that anticipations answers qd and introduces some suggestions in moving forward. i had not gone that far along yet in terms of thinking about how we would process this afterwards. and so those are, i think really thoughtful and well-received suggestions in terms of how we can digest this moving forward. i would also like to say for the benefit of the public, a city chartered commission that's actually a part of city government, we are particularly well positioned to make suggestions regarding city policy with respect to small business and i think an

important role we're going to be playing as we deal with the ramifications as we deal with the covid-19 crisis is simply collecting and curating your comments and feedback and suggestions in ways that the city can be better and organizing it and preventing it, which is essentially all we've done here. some of these ideas were internal, but the overwhelming majority of them came from you, came from the small business community and members of the public. and all we're doing was assembling this and putting it into a single document so that policy makers can see it all in one place and understand how all of these pieces go together and then we can have a lively debate around what needs to be instituted and maybe what's abridged too far. but we can't start to have that conversation without having

everything assembled and put into a single document. and so i think that's probably going forward the most important role of the commission and probably a good framework for how we move forward to the covid-19 crisis. >> just one more follow -up.up. do the members the board of supervisors, as well as the mayor's office, obviously, but will they all get, like, a copy of this, also, that we can review with them, especially with some of the legislative aids and things? i just think this is so full of ideas that not only are end points, but things to spark more ideas on how to generate the business again. >> yes, you know, i think we can

certainly send a copy to the mayor and the board of supervisors and i think we wouly objections to that and i can't think of any reason we wouldn't do that. of course, if someone can come up with reasons why we couldn't or shouldn't do that, i would be interested in hearing from either dominica or our director. >> director, yes, definitely the board of supervisors and the mayors will receive a copy of this and in addition, we will also be sending it to the relevant departments engaged in providing some of the information or providing information or the city or this body, the commission would need to work with to accomplish what is set out in this document. >> so i will tell you

anecdotally in my conversations with various city leaders, they're hundre hungering for ths information and it's well received an and to members of te public making suggestions, this is a great way to ensure those suggestions get seen and heard. if you have previously made suggestions and you don't see them on this document, that is because our internal review process determined either that the request was duplicated elsewhere so that's part of the curation process, is just making sure we're not repeating ourselves. or might not be feasible or legal in that we wouldn't want to take up anybody's time making requests possible to fulfill p. before we move on to public

comment, i want to make sure that if any commissioners had any comment that they had an opportunity to do so. and commissioner, ukudio. >> hi. i want to reiterate what commissioner huey said, a lot of work went it into from the staff and office of small business and passing around all of the various organizations representing small business expose shoulbusinessesand acknos viewed by ggra, as well as the chamber of commerce ceo. so it comes well vetted. i agree with the director that we should have a standing agenda item for every commission meeting where we review progress that's been made. originally, i thought since there's ten subgroups that might be good to sign one or two to each commissioner, but now i think actually, a better use of time would be, perhaps, at the

office of small business staff, knowing kind of as much as they do sitting in city hall, might be able to figure out with these proposals kind of what the mechanics would actually be to do some of these things, right? it's one thing to say make this change or relax this rule, but i think we don't have, necessarily haven't tnecessarily, have to ge process would be. we might go through and actually how to do some of these things so that we as commission e commn advocate for that to. so that when we do bring the enforcement agency staff to us, which i think we should do in the next commissioned meeting, at least some of them and the rest of them in the meeting after that and we can come with our homework done, well

researched and understanding that the way to, you know, make some of the very specific changes, for instance pushing the retrofit deadline. what the process actually doing so that when we bring in planning, we can say that we did our homework and this is how you move the retrofit deadline, how can we do that? so i leave it to you, president and director, whether this is something the osb can do on their own, figuring out the actual mechanics or if you could like to help with the commissioners and i'll say a lot of the recommendations, even though they're in different areas, some of them sit within the same agencies, so i wouldn't want us to look disorganized with some questions. so if there's a capacity within osb, it makes sense for this to be centralized. the second piece, i think, we

should immediately send this to the board of supervisors and i don't think it is a bad idea for individual commissioners to forward this because it increases the divisability and we should see who is able to come to the next commission meeting and ask about enforcement of some of the changes. we need to ask how to represent the three businesses on the economic task force. i hope and do not expect that the enforcement agencies and our legislators, surely, would wait on some of these changes based on the economic recovery task force recommendations. but i think if the economic task force recommendations reflect

the work that we've been doing and these proposals, it will only add to their feasibility. and i think we attack this on all flanks and they we have to be loud and public an and have o work to do as much work as we can. >> so i agree with everything you just said. >> commissioner? >> just one second. i'm sorry, i'll get to you, i promise. so commissioner, the last thing i want to say is that we may want to consider forming subcommittees to look at this by, perhaps, agency and so i think we need to have a separate conversation as a commission whether we have the bandwidth to manage that process. that could be one way to get

that done. in terms of next meeting, i think we have to get together and work a triage and figure oue in a different place in two weeks -- where is the economic recovery task force at, where is the city at and where are the most important needs and that's, obviously, a dynamic and rapidly-changing landscape. and so, with that, commissioner, duly, i'm so apologetic, i saw your check a couple of minutes ago but i welcome your input. >> i've been trying to comment for the entire meeting but haven't been able to. i've been blocked. i just wanted to also mention that some of the things on our list are going to need a very fine grained approach. for example, in my opinion, allowing more formula retail is the opposite of helping small

business. we all know that deep pockets exist in formula retail and very few, if any, small businesses could ever afford what they have. and my concern is, i just don't think it's a great idea for our retail corridors unless they're greatly desiring more formula retail. i can't think that we should make a blanket statement and allowing it to go to 51 is just saying go to it, take over all our spaces. and i think that's a fine grained issue that we need to go over carefully, and that's just one example. >> can i just respond to that briefly? >> sure. so there was an earlier draft that mentioned 51 and we did take that out of this letter and i think it's important to note that formula retail is a ballot

measure and, as such, neither the commission or mayor can change it without another voter ballot measure. i think to the extent that norm la retail can be addressed or modified or loosened or liberalized, that's to be exsent of how a business corridor is defined under the legislation. that's the one area of wiggle room. so that's entirely subject to community input. i don't think there's any opportunity to change that number 11 from the current number 11, absent another ballot measure. so that's why i said let's take out the reference to the specific numbers because that's a much more complicated and lengthy process. so i just wanted to speak to that part of it, but please continue.

>> i apologize for interrupting you but that was an ongoing conversation. so i'll absolutely come back to

you, commissioner duly, if anything else comes up. commissioner azunis. >> thank you, everyone. i think a kind of step-by. step oby-stephow to actually ace recommendations is something that we have access to because we have access to extent constis to people who are our case studies for these recommendations. i have a question about the planning and land-use flexibility elements of our recommendations. and it does kind of cross of over with the formula retail question because we have -- actually, we have the written comment in our last meeting from an individual who was a fran franchisee, right? so it's a small business owner, but a business that requires a

ceu and this individual needs -- is an example of someone who is caught up in the ceu process waiting for their application to be approve. so something i would ask, also, is clarity for our business community on which departments are still functioning with our city and, like, what processes are actually being undertaken and which have frozen. because if someone is waiting for their permit to be oked or something, like, we need to know if they need to change course or if that department is still functioning with the city in getting through those applications or something like that. so that's kind of a nuance that make come up, but i just wanted to flag it because i, frankly, don't know, you know.

and i know that there is a government doc from sfmta about how to apply for curbside permits. so i would like to make sure that that's accessible, as well and kind of a step-by-step process if we're requiring new permits for changes to business operations and that should be more, too. >> and so the first planning recommendation is that there be guidance to the small business community about what agencies are open and how to contact them? >> yeah, i think that's definitely a big part of that. we need to let the business community know which entities with our city are still doing

their puerto rico vid work, especially when it comes to what people are waiting to be able to function. >> so let me rephrase that for dominica. under the planning section, provide guidance to the small business community regarding what agencies are open and if they are open, what is the appropriate manner for interacting with them for the purpose of obtaining permits and/or making payments? >> i it noted. also, every agency at this point, i have they're all respective covid-19 websites where the public can access, like, what is open and what's not open and what's being processed and not being processed. now anand so, perhaps, our offin

collect that information pretty easily and distribute via our newsletter or on our website or oewd can add it, too. >> i guess, does osb have it's own covid page or do we rely on the oewd page? >> this is the director. we made it a specific decision because our office would be handling all of the hotlines with the emails and the phone calls, oewd has the website. and it's managing the website. and so, i just really want to reiterate for commissioners that if businesses that you're engaging with, if there are specific questions in terms of once the stay-in-order place went into place, construction stopped, what's the status of my

permit, have them contact our office. we do, then, refer and we have people in oewd that are engaging with the departments like construction, the restrictions around construction were lifted to a certain degree and, so, the status of an individual's permit, if they were in the application process, the status of that permit will be reflective of what the guidance that's being given by the department of public health around what can be done to complete those permits. so just really want to encourage commissioners' direct businesses to connect our office and also, commissioner azunis, in the covid website, we do have the te linking to the smfta's

application to be able to get temporary -- to be able to do a temporary loading zone in front of the business while the emergency is in place, the state of emergency is in place. and so, again, direct people, businesses to the covid website with oewds, because we're working hard to make sure those things are up and on the website as they become available. >> great. and thank you, director. commissioner duly? >> i just wanted to add a little bit to that. (indiscernible).

>> so this happened to my wife the other day, on your laptop, there's a microphone and i believe you're blocking the mike microphone with your hand because you were cutting in and out because we could hear the >> we'rwe have suggested requesg that the meters not be enforced and the other thing, perhaps, was for letting the restaurants or the bars open up on to that parking area and so these are things that need to be done immediately, because we don't know it's going to be lifted or not. but in the meantime, all of the

merchants in the restaurants, especially and bars, are very anxious to get out there and get some legs on the street, which will help their business. >> we did say in the land-use section, that restaurants and business shoos be ablbusinesseso spill on to the trees and alleyways and parking lots and to encourage sfmta to expedite this and to more, importantly, get back to us within a month of specific sites where that's possibly. obviously sooner would be preferable. let me ask you about the meter question. with respect to meters, are you saying people should be able to park longer than an hour? >> no, but just to do that as an encouragement for people to come to the neighborhood and we would want to have a limit on it.

otherwise people from the community would probably park their cars all door in the commercial corridor, but it would be an incentive and we're anxious right now to get this going and we've contacted our supervisor and said, please make this happen because, you know, our community -- our neighborhood corridors are dying. >> so you're saying waive the fee but not the time limit. >> right. >> ok. and dominica, can you draft that as a proposal to sfmta to reduce parking fees but not the time limit? >> yeah. thank you. if. >> i wanted to know as a resource that i don', sf.gov enl

of the our city's resources in one central location and that's something else that citizens and members of the small business community could look into for when they have the question. >> i'm sorry, so repeat that again? sf.gov is another resource that, essentially, has brought in all of the city's resources and linked out to respective pages and is a very central repository. >> i see, got it. you were referencing the other item from earlier, got it. commissioner ukudio. >> ok, i just wanted to return back to a previous point real quick and just to make sure that i have clarity on next steps. i think the first question is

sending this out to small businesses and, also, individuals that represent small businesses, and i think that will be very important. and so the question for you, commissioner laguana, is do you want eachch us to send this to the commercial corridors that we are all associated with. i know commissioner duly is with the corridor in north beach and, perhaps, we can task you to sending it out to the chamber to get a sign-off. i think doing that immediately >> you would like a letter to be

sent out to the corridors immediately to cosign. >> yes. or for feedback or just to submit, like, this is the work of the commission, because a lot of small business owners don't know what we do and, frankly, don't know we 'do anything. sdo anything.it's important to f and get they're feedback if they're comfortable. >> yes. so let me say two things. one, the working title of the letter is first initial set of recommendations, which, obviously, implicit is that there will be an ongoing number of recommendations and i think this is the beginning of a long process we'll be engaged in for a long time and so, yes, i think, absolut absolutely, we se

in constant communication throughout the city, with the commercial corridors, with the various local merchant groups, local business groups, wherever they are. and we've mention aded a few we engaged in early on because they engaged with the commission and there's an ongoing outreach effort. and i would say in the most gentle way possible, that is one of your responsibilities as a commissioner, is to reach out to the folks that you interact with and have relations with, and presumely why you wound up on the commission in the first place. and i would expec expect you would reaching out to community members and sharing with them and encouraging them to give input on an ongoing basis.

and i would say that this document will be lengthy and exhaustive, neither definitive or final. >> i feel like continuing to position this five-page document going through multiple aspects and multiple agencies is a working document and open document constantly evolving and i think it makes it a lot harder for it to be effective because, you know, we have five pages of individual points, each of which would be difficult to get done and if we constantly position this, this is something we're working on and liquid and evolving, i worry, commissioner, that might affect our ability to actually, as a team, with efficacy work to accomplish these things. at one point do we say, here are a bunch of things that need to get done to support small

businesses and let's see if we can get them done. >> i hear that and i think that's a valid concern, but i think we need to be cognizant of reality, which this is a rapidly changing situation and none of us have a working crystal ball and i think that it is too soon to present suggestions as definitive or final when we're still figuring out what works and what doesn't work and what's appropriate. i don't necessarily get the sense at all, even just in the conversations that i'm having behind the scenes that it's not being taken seriously or that the fact that some stuff may change or be amended in the future, decreases the efficacy and i'm not as worried as you are at this point. >> with respect, i don't know what a changing situation actually means as a result to

extending soft story retrofit deadlines or waiving fees for the next 12 months o. i don't care how much the situation changes over the next two weeks. these things, many of these things will need to get done anyway, even if shelter-in-place gets lived next week, small businesses will needs these things. i mean this with respect, commissioner, i don't think we wait to see how things evolve. there are a solid set of suggestions here. >> this is director tracey here and i think going back to outreach, commissioner duly, could you mute your computer? so first, i think, definitely as we share with the board of supervisors and the mayor's

office and mayor's office, we should be sharing with the business community. the way that can be done is, one, once the document is finalized, it's up on our website and so it's there and two, we have our eblast and we can inform the business community from their input that this document has been finalized with these particular set of recommendations and that the commission will be work on it with the city, with the task force and on their behalf. the office can also send it out to other business organizations to inform those business organizations as to the sets of recommendations so they're fully informed. and i think it doesn't hurt to have as many organizations and the business community aware of these to also help advocate and to their supervisors and the

mayor's office or the task force on what their priorities are. and going back to an earlier point that you had, commissioner, is how do we work with this and so we have a good set of recommendations and who is involved in accomplishing them and how do they get accomplished? perhaps the next step is for a working document or a project kind of management document for the commission and dominica and i can take this and say what may be short-term, long-term, you know. items, things to put forward and discussed within the city and can they get accomplished relatively soon?

and wha what can be accomplished more through working with agencies with the office or what is better accomplished by having the agencies come before the commission and the commission have that discussion as to why these are important things for the department to be working on. with then followup from the office and working in tracking those items. and again, if we have this as a standing item, then we can also inform the business community that the reports of what is being worked on with this particular document, they can come to the commission meeting, view the commission meeting, either live or at a later date to get updates. so those are some initial thoughts that i have.

>> the commission recovery task force as a quote, unquote, living document and so i think this is just sort of an ongoing discussion. as the director said today, we will be voting on this document. once we have voted on it, this document will be final. and these recommendations will be -- this is on our website as our final letter. now, of course, we can make new suggestions of recommendations in the future based on new information. but, the recommendations that we're making now will not change unless we decide to change them at a future date and maybe

that's helpful. >> thank you, director. a followup, i love that framing of this and i think that sounds perfect. figuring out what can be doing working within the agency's back-channeling versus what is bringing the agencies here and also the how of the planks. do you think that can be done now and the next commission meeting should we choose to have it in the two weeks? >> the working project management working documents that are digging in through this stuff? >> i would say mostly yes, in terms of a good scoping of what that would involve, identifying what we can initiate from a conversation now with the department and what is likely best to bring forward -- what's

best for the commission to be the primary initiator. i mean, even if when we invite the department, staff will have some conversation with those departments, but to have a more exploratory discussion as to what can be done and accomplished with these ideas, then identify where that is maybe best to happen with the commission. >> two more quick follow-up questions, commissioner. one is how, commissioner, do you perceive the commissioner can be supportive ove in that process? is that something we should be involved in or not? >> just how can we be helpful in that? >> i think how you can be helpful is really -- i mean, if we want to take some of the land-use conversations, right, or the land-use bullet points and we invite the planning

department to the commission meeting, is being able to articulate to that agency what some of these newer ideas look like and what would be involved and what the need is. so you're out there talking to the businesses and for those of you that are on merchant corridors, you are hearing what businesses are talking about. and you're hearing what businesses are thinking about without having -- many businesses don't know when they're going to be opened or when they open, how much of their business activity will they able to do. if they're not going to be able to fully do their business activity, what are other things that they're thinking and giving consideration to, right? so i think this is where you being in the business community can help articulate those thoughts and needs, toabl to abo

help our businesses survive this rebuilding, so to speak. >> my last follow-up question, do you think strategically in order to be productive it makes sense while you are doing that work to dual track by asking enforcement agencies to come to our next commission meeting or having another commission meeting going through feasibility study and inviting them after that? so in about a month's time. >> my recommendation is, i think that there are some agencies, that it might be beneficial, because i think it's going -- the feasibility study may need to come after you have the conversation, right? because much of what's in here will be dependent on the departments beginning on doing the work and how will they able to do it, right?

and so, i don't think we -- unless you want staff to do it all, then there's going to be elements that we don't have a feasibility study done until after the conversation takes place. >> which departments? >> i would say planning. somist could be around the data collection. if we're dealing with waiving the fees, we'll need to be -- it could be departments. it could be discussion with the controller's office. so i would have to go through and outline which departments are going to be affected by or impacted by the recommendation or needed, i should say, to implement the recommendation. >> can i just maybe ask for

permission to empower the office of small business to make that determination and invite them to the next commission meeting so we can talk to them ourselves? >> yes. and president laguana, what i wanted to add to that, that is something to work with the president and if the president -- work with the president and the vice president on. >> awesome. >> and so, yeah, just to add to that, i would like to say, commissioner ukudio, you did an extraordinary amch wor amount on drafting this document and i wanted to commend and thank you for your work and ideas and your suggestions. and you, along with commissioner cartahena were with a task force bringing this document to its current state and as such, i

would say that as we move forward with implementation and the project management around implementation, you would certainly be an included voice in how that gets implemented, given the amount of work that you put into the document already. and i would certainly want you to participate in that process of how we get this over the finish line. with respect to setting the agenda for future meetings, i think -- and how osb's staff time is allocated, i think we need to be careful because there's only so many hours that they have available to them. and so, it's an important conversation to be sort of respectful that they have multiple different things that have to get done simultaneously

and so there's a triage to how we move forward through this process and it's -- i would encourage us as commissioners to not be too aggressive in setting the agenda for either the office or ourselves and that we can have those conversations off-line in terms of figuring out what is the most logical way moving forward through this. i think sometimes in these hearings, it can be very easy and tempting to say let's do x and not realize we're knocking y and z off the to-do list or creating an impossible situation for staffers or creating a stress and anxiety. and so we'll connect off-line on how to implement the document and we'll do it in a way that is

sustainable for the staff so that we can get this done in the most efficient way possible. and commissioner duly, i see you removed your request to speak, but i did want -- especially since we had trouble earlier, i wanted to make sure and confirm that you didn't have any other comments. >> we're running out of time, so i am just feeding it -- just forget it. we'll move on. >> ok. >> so with that, i think we will, in the interest of time, we'll move on to public comment. one important point to make to folks that have called in, you need to dial 1-0 in order to get in the cue to speak. so if you have called in and you are listening, you need to dial 1-0 in order to be recognised and heard.

and so, let's open up public comment. >> operator: you have one question remaining. >> hello. you have the floor. >> they may need to un-mute. >> sounds like they may have dropped off and we'll leave public comment open for another couple of minutes to give people a chance to call in, comment. again, once you call in, you have to dial 1-0 in order to get in the cue for public comment.

we'll leave this open for another 30 seconds. >> that iwhat is the phone numbr people to call? >> (888)273-3658 and the access code is 310-7452. >> take your time. >> operator: you have one question remaining. >> hello, commissioners, can you hear me? >> we, we can. thank you. >> i'm mark dwight. hello.

i'm the founder and owner of rickshaw bagworks in san francisco. thank you for this. i'm writing that you help me educate owners about the reopening. people are using vented or valved masks, which is explicitly banned in our face-covering ordinance. this issue is poorly understood and has received very little public discussion. the prevalence of unfiltered valved masks is a threat to our containment efforts and a serious health risk to customers as we gradually reopen our businesses. they're prevalent in our area because so many purchase them for respiratory protection during wildfires. they're designed for protection, not containment, as the one-way valve has no filter. exhaling through the valve expels whatever germs you exhale in a high velocity jetstream.

we should be certain that our employees do not wear these masks or that they cover the unfiltered vents if they wear them and warning signs should be posted so anyone interacted is alerted to the valve masks that they are not sent for virus containment as stipulated in our own face covering ordinance. costco assisted with valve masks. i have been working several weeks with dr. matthew springer at ucsf for a educational effort but so far the city has not provided any further guidance or signage despite banning this type of mask in the ordinance. i created a sign which i sent to you regarding vented valve masks as a communication tool for my own business modeled after the signs the cities have made and i ask that you make this available to business owners until such

time as official signage is made available. ateducating people is a challenging task, is often meant with skepticism. this helps employees avoid confrontation with customers who are uninformed of the issue and i created a video describing the problem and demonstrating the fix for these masks which is placing masking tape over the vents. this needs to be done before anyone wearing such a mask interacts with fellow employees or customers. thank you for your consideration. >> thank you. and i appreciate you bringing that to our attention, mark. mark is the former president and at times vice president of the small business commission and you've been a leader on this important issue. i don't believe we have any other public commenters. is that correct? >> yes.

>> i have feedback coming to me. somebody's line -- i think it's gone now. so with that, with the public comment closed, so do we -- before we move on to the next item, any last commissioner comments? >> do we need to vote on this now? i would like to make a motion to approve the final draft of the proposal to support small business during this time. >> i second the motion. >> commissioners, there were several amendments made to the motion requesting that dominica add a few points. do you want to ensure those are included, as well? >> yes.

so why don't i first make a motion to amend the document to include the suggestions made during the meeting. i'm looking for a second. >> second. >> so we need to do a role call on that. >> do you need clarity on those amendments, dominica? >> no. role call vote on commissioner laguana and seconded to amend the draft recommendations. commissioner adams is absent and commissioner duly. >> yes. >> commissioner huey. >> yes. >> commissioner laguana. >> yes. >> commissioner ortiz.

cannot hear you. (role call). >> motion passes. it's 6-0 with one absent. >> and now a motion to approve the final language o our proposs to support small businesses during this crisis. >> second. >> motion to approve the final draft as amended by the motion prior and seconded by commissioner duly and role call vote. (role call). >> commissioner adams is absent.

>> motion passes 6-0 with one absent. >> ok. next item, please. >> item 3, director's report, update and report on the office of small business and the small business assistant center, program's policy and legislative matters, announcements from the mayor and announcements regarding small business activities, discussion items. >> you're muted, director. >> thank you, commissioner. so commissioners, i will provide you with some updates. so as i have noted earlier in the meeting, the office of small business staff is staffing the

hotline which is our website -- excuse me, our email and main line phone number for small businesses. to date we have service to 2020 business inquiries and they all -- each week it is slightly different based on what is new information coming out -- at any given time. most of it is around financing and wanting support services and lease negotiations and jus negof it is essential businesses and as the phase two rolled out, we are receiving the calls and inquiries, even though we still have one more week to go before businesses can partially open.

we are also developing a resource guide for the ppe. the commission has put in its set of recommendations the request to environment city take a look at whether they can source the ppe so that businesses can purchase it affordably and in the interim of that, we have put together a ppe resource working with our local manufacturers and some of our local businesses so that we there can be b-to-b purchasing at a local level. rick has just completed this and it won't be live on our website because we need to go through certain steps with the city administrator, but we'll be -- as businesses inquire, we'll be providing that information so they can start sourcing those

items locally and we'll share that list with you, as well. last week, the historic preservation commission had its meeting and asked for a presentation on what sorts of support the legacy businesses are receiving during the covid crisis. so rick and i went through -- rick has been individually communicating with the businesses, but they're receiving all of the information that we're providing all businesses and then, i have, i think, indicated to most of you that the business assistance grant has gone grant for this year and that went to 136 businesses that applied. and the average grant is about $8,000, a little over $8,000.

the percentage of nonprofits receiving the grants is around 18.5 proceeding expo a majority of th18.5% and a majority goingo our nonprofit entity. we did have $150,000 set aside to assist legacy businesses through the abe process, but under the circumstances, we decided that it was probably better to reallocate that 150,000 to the business system's grant and we were able to make the grant allocations slightly higher than what we had projected for. so then i want to bring to your attention last week would have been normally small business week, the first week of may.

due to the circumstances, that did not take place. though the mayor did announce deer sf, which you have been informed of, to post your hearts for not only your business for other businesses that are important to you and have impact. working with the chamber of commerce who will lead small business week, it is being moved to june 22nd through the 26th, at least at this point. it will be a virtual small business week.

we will not be likely to have this unless we do find a way of doing the reception. and there is an emergency ordinance and i want to bring it to your attention and there will be some follow-up in the next day or two, that supervisor mar has introduced and because it is an emergency ordinance, it does not need to sit for 30 days. it's scheduled in the government and audit's meeting, so the next meeting will be may 21. this ordinance is a temporary of right to reemployment following lay-off due to the covid pointing and this ordinance does apply to all businesses with ten or more employees and it does have a fairly rigorous reporting and communication process not

only with the employees but with the city. what we are looking at, there's roughly 8,540 small businesses that will be impacted. there are three that required, if this passes, with the ten or more employees, we have 3,700 businesses that have over 100 employees. and 2500 nonprofits registered with the city. and so not only wil does it afft some governance of what is passed and what is required of businesses, but it is also a substantial -- will have substantial implications, particularly for the office of labor standard enforcement in terms of bureaucratic requires forequirements for them -- it could be relatively costly in

terms of its implementation. now and so you will receive more information on that. >> director? >> yes. >> so clarify for those not familiar with the legislation and also for my own clarification, that legislation, essentially it says that employees shall be hired back in the order that they were terminated wit and the position shall be offered to people that were term though thought termina result of covid-19 before the position can be offered to anyone else. is that a correct summary of the proposed legislation? >> relatively. its order of seniority may not be order of laid off. and, also, that there is a 90-day reemployment period.

so i think that is also something that's very important for businesses to take a look at that regulation in context. as wi know many of you have been hearing for the challenges of businesses that have not opened or are partially opened. the challenges of the ppp present, that if the dates don't get extended, there will be many businesses that the ppp will now, if they keep it, will now become a debt because of the challenge of meeting those employment deadlines and so, i think this regulation needs to be taken in context with what's happening with the ppe, as well.

>> ppp, you mean. >> yes, the payroll protection program. so anyway, we will be providing a detailed analysis. it just came to my attention and just introduced last week and so i've just been able to sort of sketch out some of the key elements and we'll be providing a more detailed analysis. >> but just to clarify, in addition to specifying who you hire back and in what order you hire them back in, there are reporting requirements on top of that? >> yes. and again, i will say this with the caveat of not knowing this legislation in intimate detail. but my first read is that there is a requirement for any

employees that businesses laid off since the stay-in-order in lace or emergency went in place and you will be needing to know those businesses with very specific requirements. of what will be required of the rehiring of employees. in that notice is asking the employee for the permission to provide osle with the contact information of that employee so ose has the ability to be able to contact them. and then as businesses come back online, businesses are able to refirrehire, there's a reporting requirement of how you are rehiring, if i have read this

correct, to osle. >> i guess the question will be whether businesses feel it would be helpful in the current climate to have additional reporting requirements and whether the goals here, which are certainly well intentioned, whether those goals are more important than the goals of helping to facilitate survival and recovery for small businesses and those seem like really pertinent questions. will this legislation come before the commission? >> the legislation, if it is heard at the government audit oversight committee meeting, which the next one would be may 21st, it would not come

before the commission unless the commission determines it would hold a special meeting. >> commission azunis? >> thank you for that report, director. yeah, i have some questions, too, given there was a lot of grey area during the last -- i mean, in the last couple of months and people were electing to take unemployment because whatever subsidized agreement they came to, it wasn't enough. so i'm just wondering if those nuances -- if they're delinquent crated with what type of separation triggers this? because a lot of people went on unemployment on their own volition. >> again, on my first read, i

would say no. so i think there is active education that is going to be needed at a fairly rapid rate to the board of supervisors as this does affect or small businesses and all of the various nuances of what businesses -- how they chose to operate and the decisions they made often in communication with their employees. so if that answers your question. >> yes, i mean, definitely. i think that this doesn't put a good will on the side of the small business, unfortunately, because we need workers. the service industry is so hungry for workers and we hire local and we hire everybody that we can and everybody is looking for workers. so i don't see how small

businesses would necessarily argue hiring back people. i think that that is their plan. but we're definitely getting into an area of, like, privat private -- determination for a business to employee on what lead up to this. so it definitely doesn't leave room for the good will expect reality of the service sector to already comply with this, without having regulations. i have a lot of questions. >> i completely agree, commissioner, and i think that's very well said. and i would say that for many small businesses, we're so hungry for workers that if we're choosing not to hire an employee back, there may be a good reason for that. you know, not everybody is a

great person to work with and for even their coworkers, sometimes. and i understand the sentiment behind the legislation, but i have reflec a lot of concerns at mandating from the top and also adding additional reporting requirements to small businesses. that seems really problematic at this moment in time. >> yes, we don't want to make it people for hire back people. so we need to mak make sure this doesn't do that. if you have a plan to hire somebody back but now you have to go through all of these steps. >> right, that's right. >> and i think the one overarching concern is that i don't know if the legislation was written which will have to reach out to the supervisor's

office, we have yet to do that, to get a full briefing on it, but, again, is it making the assumption that businesses are going to be returning to full operations and so much of what businesses are still waiting to hear from is from the city and the department of public health just to the degree of how they'll able to operate their businesses? that's still a big unknown for a high number of businesses. so it's not just within the business' purview of how businesses will be conducted and how employees will be there to conduct it. so much of that is influenced and impactedpy thed by the citys determination. and lastly, i'm going back to some of the early questions.

oewd and our office are taking different sectors such as manufacturing, office space, retail, and we're working on personal services and starting to develop what may be -- what it looks like to come back -- what will be some of the requirements to come back to open and conduct businesses? so personal services such as hair salons, tattoos, things where there's definite human-to-human contact, those will probably be on the tail-end. so i do, to your question, i think, commissioners azunis, there is information to work on what it will look like to have these businesses open. and with that, i'll conclude my remarks.

>> ok. are there any members of the public who would like to make comments on number 3? >> operator: you have zero questions remaining. >> public comment is closed. next item, please. >> item 4, commissioners' report allows president, vice president and commissioners to report on business activities and make announcements that are of interest into the small business community business might. item. >> commissioners, any updates? >> yes. >> i just wanted to make a couple of comments. i know myself and probably all commission ecommissioners will o reach out with the updates paper that we've put out and i know i can share that with the poke street people, the northeast

people and we need to get that out because i'm very anxious to hear what our business associations would say about it. i think they haven't had that opportunity to see it and i think that is extremely important. >> i agree. so as soon as the final document is drafted, we will have that forwarded to all of the commissioners and, as well as all of the business associations that are on osb mailing list, if that's possible. and i will say that it has been a supporting document on our website for, since at least thursday, friday, but i hear your point and not many people may have had the chance to see that and reflect upon those recommendations. so i agree, we should get as

much comment and feedback as possible. >> yes, before our next meeting. >> right. >> commissioner, ukudio. >> thank you very much. i wanted to report back on the survey that we conducted on the valencia corridor merchants. i'm on the board of the valencia corridor merchant's association which is the longest stretch of the independently small businesses in the country, i recently learned. it was an amazing survey. i have some numbers. so 89 businesses participated, which is a lot, considering i believe it's an eight-block radius and we have a lot of businesses to fill out the survey. it ranges from less than a year to over 62 years. so we had a very wide range of length of business ownership. 48.3% of the businesses were

completely closed and 21.3% were doing delivery or take-out and 39.5% applied to the resiliency fund that oewd created and 17.4% applied for the zero interest loans that the city created. and 9.3% applied for the neighborhood mini-grant and that's probably because we're not considered in an economically depressed corridor. i'm not exactly sure why. 84.9% applied for ppe and so, a very strong majority of people and 62.8% applied for the employment economic injury -- the disaster loan. 51.2% have not received any funding whatsoever. and 41% have been rejected from funding and so i've been told they will not be receiving it. of the corridor merchant own ow,

15.7% spoke english and 47.7% are women-owned businesses who responded to our survey and 1,184 people have been either furloughed or let go on the corridor, based on our survey with and average of 13.3 per business. 16.93% of merchant owners have not paid themselves since this started at all and 20.5% paid something of a reduced salary. 50.95% have either 100 or 95% revenue drop, 13.8% responded if they do not receive financial assistance they'll have to shut down permanently and the rough estimates to reopen is 25 to 35 per merchant. there were reopening amounts that were astr astronomical andy

51.9% expected to rehire 100% of their staff with or without ppe. we asked are you planning to rehire 100% because you got ppe and are you planning to hire 100% and only 51% expect to rehire. 31% set up a go-fund-me and we received a ton of idea to beautify the corridor. lots of good information there and i think this is a survey that could easily b utilized are city to get a sense of, you know, how many of these businesses are received funding and how long do these businesses have as a runway and how much does it cost to reopen and what percentage are owned by women and folks who speak english as a second language. so i'm happy to create a version of this at the osb an.

>> i completely agree that this is something that could be deployed either at the association level or city-wide and i think we should have a conversation with osb staff about whether we have the mechanism to deploy a survey like this and we need to figure out how that plugs into our current triage.

if you could forward that, it would be great. >> happy to. >> commissioner huey? >> thank you very much. i really just wanted to put a couple of exclamation marks on some of the things. i think one of the things that was mentioned earlier is

streamlining processes and having a one-stop shop. after talking to so many different people in the last few weeks, i really feel like small businesses have to know where they stand in terms of, like, fees and deferrals. i don't even know what the final tally is, annually, unless i look in my quick-books and things like that. >> my feelings of the conversations and.

(inaudible). >> it's not an old paradigm of small versus big business or -- i'm sorry not business but government. people think of small government versus like whatever. i think what i would like to see in san francisco and maybe starting with the small business community because we are so innovative and how technology fits or parameters. not selling any of our data or having anyone profit off of our data but using this so our community can thrive and that to me is the opportunity that i see in the small business community. and so i'm hoping that as we start to look at these things, and even like if something what the director talked about in terms of this last back-to-work ordinance piece, i'm so

appreciative she brought that up and i would like to dig into that more. that's another fee we're talking about. we just went through a five-page document how to streamline the process and now we're creating more systems and processes. and that's just going to be another piece that i don't quite understand yet. so i feel like, you know, as a commission, if we can kind of keep pushing for the innovation to lead into government, to me, i feel like that would be a huge win for this rebuilding process. i've attended meetings and talked to people i don't know, but that's one piece that i saw. i did see, too, in one of our meetings where rodney fong mentioned there were 114 different line item or different fees. and so that leads me to believe the chamber does have a lot more

data that maybe we aren't tapping into. instead of duplicating work, i would like access to the merchant corridor and all of the data. maybe if we need data, we can put a call out to different organizations to be able to kind of support us so that we're not doing all of the legwork over again. that's been a huge work i've. wonderini'vebeen wondering, ands entirely possible. i think those are my key things. >> excellent suggestions. thank you. the challenge with data, particularly with data gathered by business associations is that the associations representative one slice, one particular constituency. in my experience, they're very happy to share what they have

and you have to be cautious about interpreting it because in businesses than can afford to join tend to be more successful than a cross-section of small business city-wide. and so you run the risk of leaving out important voices which is why in our document we try to encourage the city to collect specific sets of data, which is not to say your idea is a good one. it's a great one but that is something we have to keep in the back of our minds, is that the scope of what we do is much wider than the scope of your typical business association. commissioner cartahena.

>> i wanted to report back on a couple of updates in the commission. we have tackled small businesses to food scarcity, immigration services during covid-19 and, obviously, the disproportionately impact it has had on the latino community in san francisco. also, at meta, we were able to get 20 ppp loans pushed through. and so latino business owners rejected by the majors, we took them and we went through the process and we currently have 20 loans funded. we've in, partnership, with oewd have reallocated funds. (no audio). >> i think we lost him. >> sorry about that.

>> and then if addition, i wanted to give some shout-outs and just to let everybody know, small businesses are not only worried about themselves, they're helping the community and there are restaurants that have been instrumental in serving seniors, ready-to-eat meals at their costs. (inaudible).. also our former president, he donated bags in order for us to be able to deliver food.

>> we're sorry, your conference is ending now. please hang up. >> and lastly, just a shout-out to businesses -- can you hear me? >> yes. >> and just lastly, a shelf we o our food drives or deliver foods to seniors without vessels to put them in so any bags would be greatly appreciated and thank you to small businesses. and also the ggra, miss thompson, she has a survey and she did it in spanish. it's a killer survey and thank you for including or people in it and that's all i have to report for now. >> commissioner ortiz, that's an excellent update and can i ask that any work product or output

from that mission recovery task force, would you be willing to share it with the commission? >> certainly, especially as it pertains to small businesses. i'll have more data as we progress. >> and if there's anything that we can do to assist or be helpful, definitely continue to let us know and even if it's just shooting me an elizabeth ea text. i want to make sure we're constructive in making sure they get everything that we can offer. >> i appreciate that, president, and i appreciate your efforts to be culturally sensitive to our needs. thank you. >> sure. >> any other commissioner comment? seeing none, are there any members of the public that would like to make a comments on item number 4, commissioner reports? seeing none, public comment is

closed. next item, please. >> item five, new business, allows commissioner to introduce new items for future consideration and commission discussion item. >> any commissioners to introduce new business? commissioner ukutiel. >> the only new business to add was, i've heard that supervisor peskin's office is working on a packet of legislation to involve fee installatio instigation. >> thank you, commissioner. you're making me feel bad

because i should have mentioned that during the commissioner report. supervisor peskin's office has been working in coordinating. and that item will come before the commission in a future hearing and there's been some great conversations facilitated with both cdma and gg ra, as well as a few independent restaurant owners and getting lots of different inputs and so i think this will come before the commission. it's on a current 30-day hold and it's not an emergency legislation. it will come before us and we'll have a chance to review the legislation and what is finally

proposed once they figure out -- there's a lot of ongoing discussion in the background about what should be and shouldn't be in the legislation. so we're letting that process work itself out. >> and can you clarify, is it fee mitigation he's working on? >> it is a whole suite of items, not just fee mitigation and so my experience, without speaking to this legislation in particular, but my experience in past legislation is that stakeholders will get together and negotiate amongst themselves what seems to make the most sense and represents everybody's interests. obviously, our role is to represent the small business community and to the extent i've participated in this discussion, it's been largely to support the

small business folks and make sure that their interests are represented. when it comes before our commission, we'll be looking at it through that lense. >> thank you. >> and is there any other new business from commissioners? >> sseeing none and if anybody thinks of anything while i'm talking, feel free to pop in on the chat. i will introduce one bit which is, i do -- i've been harping on this for, since i think my first meeting, as a commissioner, and that's i think that the small business commission's communication, technology needs a dramatic overhaul and update and i thunderbay the covid-19 crisis has underscored and

underlined -- that's the same thing, but whatever -- has made it clear that we do need to focus on that and that we can't lose sight that that's an important task that needs to be implemented and as expeditio exy as possible. it would be great to roll this out to the small business community in a very streamlined and quick way, it would be great if we could text it out to folks and it would be great if we could send text notices of an upcoming meeting so people can have their voices heard during public comment, that they would have an easy way to submit public comment and that they would have easy access to documents. you know, even just listening to

the hoops that people have to jump through to make a public comment. they have to dial a ten-digit number and access code and then after that, ten. to me, that is too difficult and it is asking too much of folks to keep track of all of this to keep track of their businesses and survival and getting through this tough period. and i just wanted to put out there that it's important to think about all issues affecting covid-19 and affects small business, but we, at the same time, have to think about the infrastructure of the commission itself and that the commission itself needs to build and improve and be a better version of itself and i think that is our biggest opportunity right now is to improve how we communicate with the small business community. so i'm just going to emphasize

that we need to keep that front of mind and really develop resources to making sure i that gets done. the reason i'm letting you all know is because there's lots of different things that we devote resources to and so, this is something that we need to plug into that triage. in terms of assessing how we allocate our limited resources and staff time and this is a conversation between all of us. not necessarily tapped down. but i want to make sure that important task is not forgotten or lost. so with that, if we do not have any other commissioner new reports, we will open it up to public comment. are there any members of the public to make comments on item number 5? seeing none, public comment is

closed. next item, please. >> please show the off of small business slide. >> we will end with reminder that the small business commission is the official public forum to voice your opinions and concerns about policies that affect the economic vitality of small businesses in san francisco. and that the office of small business is the best place to get answers about doing business in san francisco during the local emergency. if you need assistance with small business matters, continue to reach out to the office of small business. next item. >> item 6, adjournment, action item. >> i move. >> seconded. >> motion by commissioner to ajourn and seconded by

commissioner laguana. commissioner adams is absent. role call. (role call). >> motion passes 6-0 and motion a adjourned at 1:19 p.m. >> thank you. , everyone.

>> this is a huge catalyst for change. >> it will be over 530,000 gross square feet plus two levels of basement. >> now the departments are across so many locations it is hard for them to work together and collaborate and hard for the customers to figure out the different locations and hours of operation. >> one of the main drivers is a one stopper mitt center for -- permit center.

>> special events. we are a one stop shop for those three things. >> this has many different uses throughout if years. >> in 1940s it was coca-cola and the flagship as part of the construction project we are retaining the clock tower. the permit center is little working closely with the digital services team on how can we modernize and move away from the paper we use right now to move to a more digital world. >> the digital services team was created in 2017. it is 2.5 years. our job is to make it possible to get things done with the city online. >> one of the reasons permitting is so difficult in this city and county is really about the scale. we have 58 different department in the city and 18 of them involve permitting. >> we are expecting the residents to understand how the

departments are structured to navigate through the permitting processes. it is difficult and we have heard that from many people we interviewed. our goal is you don't have to know the department. you are dealing with the city. >> now if you are trying to get construction or special events permit you might go to 13 locations to get the permit. here we are taking 13 locations into one floor of one location which is a huge improvement for the customer and staff trying to work together to make it easy to comply with the rules. >> there are more than 300 permitting processes in the city. there is a huge to do list that we are possessing digital. the first project is allowing people to apply online for the a.d.u. it is an accessory dwelling unit, away for people to add

extra living space to their home, to convert a garage or add something to the back of the house. it is a very complicated permit. you have to speak to different departments to get it approved. we are trying to consolidate to one easy to due process. some of the next ones are windows and roofing. those are high volume permits. they are simple to issue. another one is restaurant permitting. while the overall volume is lower it is long and complicated business process. people struggle to open restaurants because the permitting process is hard to navigate. >> the city is going to roll out a digital curing system one that is being tested. >> when people arrive they canshay what they are here to. it helps them workout which cue they neat to be in.

if they rant to run anker rapid she can do that. we say you are next in line make sure you are back ready for your appointment. >> we want it all-in-one location across the many departments involved. it is clear where customers go to play. >> on june 5, 2019 the ceremony was held to celebrate the placement of the last beam on top of the structures. six months later construction is complete. >> we will be moving next summer. >> the flu building -- the new building will be building. it was designed with light in mind. employees will appreciate these amenities. >> solar panels on the roof, electric vehicle chargers in the basement levels, benefiting from gray watery use and secured bicycle parking for 300 bicycles. when you are on the higher floors of thing yo of the buildt

catch the tip of the golden gate bridge on a clear day and good view of soma. >> it is so exciting for the team. it is a fiscal manifestation what we are trying to do. it is allowing the different departments to come together to issue permits to the residents. we hope people can digitally come to one website for permits. we are trying to make it digital so when they come into the center they have a high-quality interaction with experts to guide then rather than filling iin forms. they will have good conversations with our staff.

>> the bicycle coalition was giving away 33 bicycles so i applied. i was happy to receive one of them. >> the community bike build program is the san francisco coalition's way of spreading the joy of biking and freedom of biking to residents who may not have access to affordable transportation. the city has an ordinance that we worked with them on back in

2014 that requires city agency goes to give organizations like the san francisco bicycle organization a chance to take bicycles abandoned and put them to good use or find new homes for them. the partnerships with organizations generally with organizations that are working with low income individuals or families or people who are transportation dependent. we ask them to identify individuals who would greatly benefit from a bicycle. we make a list of people and their heights to match them to a bicycle that would suit their lifestyle and age and height. >> bicycle i received has impacted my life so greatly. it is not only a form of recreation. it is also a means of getting connected with the community through bike rides and it is also just a feeling of freedom.

i really appreciate it. i am very thankful. >> we teach a class. they have to attend a one hour class. things like how to change lanes, how to make a left turn, right turn, how to ride around cars. after that class, then we would give everyone a test chance -- chance to test ride. >> we are giving them as a way to get around the city. >> just the joy of like seeing people test drive the bicycles in the small area, there is no real word. i guess enjoyable is a word i could use. that doesn't describe the kind of warm feelings you feel in your heart giving someone that sense of freedom and maybe they

haven't ridden a bike in years. these folks are older than the normal crowd of people we give bicycles away to. take my picture on my bike. that was a great experience. there were smiles all around. the recipients, myself, supervisor, everyone was happy to be a part of this joyous occasion. at the end we normally do a group ride to see people ride off with these huge smiles on their faces is a great experience. >> if someone is interested in volunteering, we have a special section on the website sf bike.org/volunteer you can sign up for both events. we have given away 855 bicycles, 376 last year. we are growing each and every

year. i hope to top that 376 this year. we frequently do events in bayview. the spaces are for people to come and work on their own bikes or learn skills and give them access to something that they may not have had access to. >> for me this is a fun way to get outside and be active. most of the time the kids will be in the house. this is a fun way to do something. >> you get fresh air and you don't just stay in the house all day. iit is a good way to exercise. >> the bicycle coalition has a bicycle program for every community in san francisco. it is connecting the young, older community. it is a wonderful outlet for the community to come together to have some good clean fun. it has opened to many doors to the young people that will

usually might not have a bicycle. i have seen them and they are thankful and i am thankful for this program.