called to order at 4:07 p.m. the sheriff oversight board is now in session. we would like to thank the staff at sfgovtv for providing technical assistance. please stand to resite the "pledge of allegiance". >> i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all. >> can you please cal the roll. >> yes, president. member mangle is present.

>> present. >> member brookeat ther. >> present. >> vice president carryion is not present today. palmer, appears to be present. member sue is not present. president, whackster is present. we have a quaur many. >> thank you, please call the first agenda item. >> line number 1, resolution under california government code section 5493, setting forth findings under assembly bill 361 that would allow the sheriff oversight board and any sub committees to hold meetings remotely as specified. >> do we have public comment on this item? >> for members of public, you may view today's broadcast on channel 26. at this time the public is able

to a approach the board for line number 1. opportunities to speak are available for members of the public who are present by lining up at the podium or for those not present, via phone by call 16415-655-0001. press pound and pound again to to* join the meeting as participate. you will hear a beep when you enter the meeting. when public is comment is announced, this will advise the moderator. when you hear the moderator say you have two minutes, you'll have two minutes to provide your comments. once the two minutes are ended, you will be moved out of the

queue unless you decide to disconnect. members of the public may stay on the meeting and listen for when another line is called to be added back into the queue. we have no public comment in the room and no public comment online. >> do we have a motion to approve resolution under california government section 543e? >> so moved. >> is there a second. >> i second. >> would you please take the vote. >> member mangle? >> yes. member brookester. >> aye. >> member wynne. >> aye. >> president. >> yes.

>> the resolution passes. >> okay, before we move on to the next item, we're moving item 6 presentation by the department of police accountability up to follow agenda item 3 recruitment of inspect or general. call the next item, i think that's the adoption of the minute. >> calling action item 2. >> is there any public comment on this issue. >> for members of the public who would like to make public comment for line item 2, if you're present, line up at the poed um otherwise call 415-665-0001 and enter code, press 3 to raise your hand to be added to the queue.

there are no callers. >> okay, do we have a motion. >> motion to adopt the minutes. >> do we have a second. >> second that. >> member mangle. >> aye. member >> aye. >> president >> aye. >> minutes from the september 26, 2022 meeting is adopted. >> okay, i call the next item on the agenda, i believe this is the web ex presentation. >> yes. calling line 6 >> no 3, inspect or general. i believe we have waiting on web ex.

>> my apology. caller 9 on item 3, recruitment and inspect or discussion and possible action item. regarding recruitment and selection of inspect or general regarding time and cost estimates associated with outside firm recruitment and selection. after words we'll have a presentation about best practices recruiting and establishing an office inspect or general. >> sorry, i thought we were going to have the presentation roseenthol and then the presentation from dhr?

>> all right, hopefully it will not take that long, i know they're waiting on web ex. ms. howard. >> good afternoon, president members of the commission, indicate here from the department of human resources to report back regarding the process of recruitment of inspect or general. may i have my slide posted please. are you able to see them? they did solicit our prequalified list of next slide of recruitment firm. we did have one responsive to that proposal,

>> which was from, affirm, in the city and other public sector agencies and has more than 30 years of experience. >> thank you. i wanted to bring back to the commission the oversight oversight that you requested one was the explanation of process if you worked for an outside recruitment firm. and listed in front of you are the steps that recruitment firm proposed to essentially working closely with you to develop the profile of the candidate that's you're seeking, conducting out reach and then reviewing those candidates and presenting

recommended finalist to the commission. and then supporting you through the process. next slide please. i just want to highlight the proposal from bill murray which you can see here on the slide. they have conducted similar for will he serve including in orange county, in sacramento in sonoma and press no and for the district, also known as barge. they have conducted 65,000 to conduct the recruitment and up

to 50,000 for reinbursment and the placement of specific ads. on a reimbursable basis. they propose 3 to 16 weeks to respond. --13 to 16 weeks. you requested that i also workup a basic proposal about dhr capacity to conduct this recruitment on your behalf and i have that on the next slide. we have recently conducted recruitment and the mayor's department of housing development. the typical timeline for us to reconduct is about 5 to 6 months. and the cost would be based on

the actual time and my estimate based on the planning director would be between 40 and 50,000 dollars. and i'm happy to answer any questions that the commission may have. thank you. >> do any members have questions? >> no question for me as much as a statement. i'm glad that dhr heard us. and the first meeting that we had so i'm glad that they came back and supportive of this body in termds of what we're looking for and moving forward.

any other members wish to be recognized for discussion or question? >> i have a question, for i guess either option, are we able to recommend applicants? or i don't know what the vetting process looks like for bob murray. >> yes, whether you work with dhr or with for example bob murray as not executive recruitment firm, either of us would get recommendation from candidates. because you all have network and relationships in these communities that are going to be important to get the word out. >> awesome, thank you.

>> i have several questions. has dhr recruited for similar position? somebody involved in oversight or investigation--conduct, running of departments that administrative or criminal investigations? >> the two most resent are the two that i have noted. if they can move, commissions have largely relied. so not to my knowledge. >> so if dhr were to do the recruitment, how would you establish the knowledge skills and experience for candidates

in order to scan candidates? >> i think the question is how would dhr work with the commission to develop the profile? >> yes, the criteria. >> it would be a project with you. we would look at the practices in the industry in the terms of recruiting in the field. and partnership with you. ultimately to meet the expectations of the commission.

when i spoke last time, they typically want to use an recruitment firm because of the expertise that those firms bring. >> has the executive firm indicated how they would do recruitment process? and the screening for the position? >> they did describe that in their proposal and it included working closely with the commission to stakeholders to learn as much as possible about the ideal candidates that you would want. they would also bring to the table, examples of education,

experience and other things that they've seen in similar profiles. >> all right, thank you, any other questions from other members? thank you, we can move on to doctors rosenhal. by way of introduction, you have heard their bio, these are two individuals that i'm familiar with both extremely experienced in the field. both have started and lead milt tibl oversight entities similar in nature toft inspect or general office that we'll be establishing. and dr. rosenthal has transitions to the world of

academia with oversight issues. >> good evening, i hope everybody can hear me. >> yes, thank you to the board for inviting me. i'm very happy to be here. for purposes of this discussion evening, important discussion, you should know that two agencies that i started off i spent 14 years i have after starting in the police compliance in washington dc which is similar to your department of police accountability in san francisco. and then, started off the office of inspect or general

nypd which i lead for 7 years until the end of last year. so during that time, i was part of law enforcement, so i've had, quite a bit of experience in learning how to get offices up and running. i'm not selected but i am very familiar as a former chief, i have a sense of what --[indiscernible] that said, i don't think there is a one size fits all approach. seems like they've got some good plans in place solicited. so i see my role to -- ~>> you're somewhat fading in and out the volume of your voice.

>> how does that sound? >> that's better. >> so i see the purpose of this discussion, this evening as an opportunity to answer questions from ordinance relling to recruitment and hiring and others starting off the police accountability office. san francisco i have always admired forward looking nature of san francisco and the area in many oversight offices. that's the important thing to remember from my presentations. and we learn from each other in the scale. i offer suggestions and answered questions, i'm not on the ground in san francisco i don't know how precisely how any particular recommendation may play out. but i'm here to answer questions. thank you.

>> and dr. rosenthal. >> yes, good evening everyone, as mentioned, i stood up organizations in oregon, colorado and british columbia and for the state of washington and california and directors in three programs, in portland, cleveland ohio and for the state of washington. and also in my academic pursuit, i investigation agencies worldwide and i've also interviewed many heads of the oversight in the u.s. about what it takes to create and sustain the oversight agency. so from all of that, i really take five take aways from you and just obviously, as fill mentioned open to my questions that i may have. the first take away, you need

to avoid any arbitrary deadlines. you've got to give the agencies the gift of time. the necessary infrastructure or without policies and procedures in place. second, you need to take great care in the hiring of your inspect or general. that person can make or break the agency and will be a primary factor in the successor failure. normally, i recommend phil eure but apparently he's unavailable. oversight director who is most likely to succeed and the participates dwiebd a wide away of trades in being collaborative and tactical and strategic, political savvy, resilient, passion al principaled, articulate and objective. basically you're looking for a

unicorn and you need to make sure that your posting sends out a mythical creature that going to be looking for. third, you need to hire the ig first and allow the ig to build the company from the ground up. or make important decisions such as where the office will be located or information system will be used. while often no right or wrong decisions to be made in those areas, they will be the foundation for the agencies missions values and they need to be made by the person who is ultimately responsible for the program success. 4, don't shy away from using experts. in denver, the ordinance requires the person oversight be on the hiring panel. in your case, you may want to

ask a panel of oversight directors to help you identify your panelist. or your finalist. finally, be plexable in your hiring process. finalize the process only after you've identified, only then will you actually know what impact a process may have on your pull of candidates. your ultimate goal is to find the best possible position. and really what i mean by that, there are people out there who may be interested in a position but would not be interested in publicizing that fact until they receive an offer from you. in cleveland where we're hiring right now for the administer office of professional standards. of the three finalist none of them objected to having a public interview there are by

they're able to have more transparency. but there is always the danger that you will either dis swayed candidates from applying or cause them to withdrawal if you're trying to be transparent to your process. and then they have to answer to your their own con sti two enlt to why they're looking for another job. and open for any questions you may have. >> and dr. rosenthal none of a gave a overview of your background. can you please state your qualifications before you came to the oversight field, because you were both distinguished in your field. >> before i started at the police complaints in washington, i spent 11 years as a trial attorney in the civil

rights division justice in washington. and i worked in the section that frames employment discrimination lawsuits against police department. so i had a background of these practices before i stepped into oversight in washington dc. >> and it's actually and i phil started almost exactly at the same time, within a month of each other and we actually met for the first time in conference in denver in 2001 just after 9-11. i for one had been a prosecutor for the district attorney office for 15 years and the last three years the three defense so i was prosecuting

and as well investigating and prosecutors police officer and public officials. i ultimately turned a dirty police informant resulting in the lapd rampart scanneding and after costering the city of los angeles one billion dollars 500 million to gang members that were framed bit lapd and another 5 million consent decree i decided to leave as their first director for inter police review. >> thank you. do members of the board have questions? member mangle? >> is it pronounced? eure? >> euere. >> thank you both of for your

experience and just getting on the call to share your thoughts and recommendation. for mr. eure, i have questions with you. i love that you started office in new york, nypd is a very politically rot city. so i want today ask you, how long did it take for you from the time that you were given, from the time that you started to hire the ig position for the office? let me reword that, how long if you know this the answer, how long did the organization take to hire you? how long was that a year a few months? >> so there was a new mayor,

eric was just a time table quickly. mayor debazio was selected in november 2013. i got a call from mayor's office in early january of 2014. >> okay. >> i started undergoing various rounds of interviews in february 2014 and resulted ultimately an offer being started with me. and i started at the end of may. so from the time they reached out to me, that i thought it was a period of approximately 4 months. >> that's great. that's amazing. and then i want today ask my last question actually, are we able to tap you both to reach out for recommended guidelines? or experience for how we, you know, the kind of candidate that we want?

>> i'm happy and i get these calls all the time. i think that's part of the job, want all to succeed. and i my colleague richard on the panel, has does. happy to have follow-up discussion with your board members. >> okay, thank you so much. >> basically, just one of the good pieces of news is a lot of cities have been doing what you've done. so it's really a matter of if you can just identify two or three cities with strong programs and asking them to see the job description to find out the processes that were used for the hiring. and one of the things about this type of hirings, there is a lost way to see do it. it's really not necessarily a best practice but a best fit.

so what is fit so you feel comfortable getting the type of person you want. >> thank you, just baz i saw kate howard's presentation and gave the presentation, this is more of a statement rather. they are, it takes about 3 to 4 months to for them to vet and help us find a candidate a viable candidate. although, i would love to be of course thoughtful and considerate about this, role this inspector general, we're building it from scratch, but it makes me happy that mr. eure was hired at the same time. we want to make sure that we don't let perfect the enemy of good here. that's just a statement. thank you. >> if i may just one other comment on that. phil's hiring was fairly unique

among many cities, to hire within four to five months, that's pretty amazing frankly. when i left denver, it took them a year to replace me. the current in denver right now, they're still operated with a, a temporary monitor while they're trying to hire somebody. it can take three to four five months, it can take longer. a lot depends on what kind of salary. the good news is that san francisco is a place where people want to live. the bad news is you've got a very high cost of living. there are a lost factors that go into play and while having hired in 3 to 4 months would be wonderful, know that that would be considered fast.

>> in fairness, i'll echo what richard said. given in new york city, i left in december of last year and they're still trying to hire my replacement. first candidate went through. that's delayed the process a little bit. this is not the first ig but all of this to say that needs hiring periods for somebody up routing themselves in another part of the country that builds extra time. but if the effort, proper effort can be put in the process. now there are imperatives in getting somebody on board sooner rather than later. i agree wholeheartedly that

richard, saying that happy ultimate hire to support in terms of grand decisions that they've made by the agency and hopefully, they're in the background and experience for the job will help pay dividends. >> that makes sense, of course two to four months seems ideal and not quit. but not impossible. i really want to hone in on the point that you know, we can't really do anything as a board until we hire this position for this role. and you know, it will take the time that it takes if it's 6 months from now, but i just, i want to make sure that you know, we're marching towards a time lehmaner, that's it. >> other members.

>> absolutely and thank you for that, member. i absolutely completely concur with your statements. and thank you both dr. rosenthal for being here and philip eure for being here. and dr. rosenthal is sharing what it's okay, making sure that we hire the ig first and don't shia way from experts and being flexible. so one of the things that i was thinking of and this is for philip, what would you share with a brand new ig, the fact that you have been in the role and started that position in the lapd of looking back now to 2014, what would you share with

an incoming inspect or general that you now know that you didn't know when assuming that position? i can hear myself. okay. >> mr. eure, if you're talking, we cannot hear you. dr. roseenthal texted me that he can't hear anything.

the feed is muted. dan, didn't want me to talk. rosen and he's texting that he just heard the first minute of the commissioners comments.

>> some sort of delay sounds like? >> it's always the technical issues. >> it is, outside of our control. test, test, test, test.

testing. if we don't get it through the video, can we ask them to call in? can they speak at the same time by phone?

we don't know how long this is going to take. mr. eure is on the east coast and i'm sure he has other obligations. dr. rosenthal texted that he got booted and cannot join but as an attendee and not panelist. and if necessary, i can call and hold them both to a microphone.

dr. rosenthal says he still can't hear anything. >> this is what happens when you ask questions. >> you broke the internet.

>> it's all about time. >> is that preferable, me calling them on the phone? okay. then if we're going to call

another item which could be a discreet that could be interrupted with discretion. okay we'll call item 4, sheriff chief report until we can get dr. rosenthal and mr. eure back online. thank you, chief. i want to say thank you very much for sending the materials in advance. it was very appreciative to see them in advance. >> you're welcome. before we get started, i know we have several items and i brought my expert here for a cup of them. we're going to start with the

first power point related to our programs. that's going to be about 15 minutes. i'm going to bring up the director and she will explain the program. >> i'm allie and from and i have no problem being interrupted by the other speakers without losing a beat. so you're going to pull up my slides? >> can we? >> please, i hope that's what i was told. it's a power point. beautiful. yeah, if you can go back to the initial slide, that would be great.

there we go, i can see it on your computer. >> alie, tells what you see. >> i can see my first slide. i'll start out, there we go. ji i didn't think about the subtitles. i know i'm here to talk about the programs and sta tuesday sips covid and our staffing challenges. i wanted to start off my comments by saying in february of 2020, the san francisco sheriff's office was a national model on in our custody programs. we're the only jurisdiction in the country that has won the

harvard kennedy school innovations award twice, once for our rsvp and again for our five keys charter high school. we recognized by national model by urban institute for the one family program has a program that facilitates the contact visits for our incarcerated parents. le so when covid hit, we were the national model, and we've just been struggle to get back to that place. two of our legacy programs are roads to recovery and sister program they are both programs that focus on substance use recovery. they were both started in the

mid-90s and created as therapeutic communities in the jail dedicated to that programming. when covid hit, we had 32 men that were housed in a unit which is the 7th floor. when that jail closed, those participants were scattered among all the jails. and they required us not to do group programming at all, we pivoted to doing individual management and independent study packets. it made us we think how we do this programming. so as the vaccine became available, and we tried to have lots of stutter, and start stop, start stop with out breaks and issues, we started to do groups again. but because of our participants

were scattered throughout the two jails, what we've done is have small cohorts who are participating in groups. so there is, no i cannot read it. it says there, 25 participants who are doing independent study and there are 12 that are participating in three different housing areas who are doing groups with the staff. we valley in-person programming, we know the importance of groups but this has been our challenge to come back up. can we go to the next slide.

works with anyone with a violent charge and very survival centered. during the pandemic, we did the individual work as i mentioned before with roads, but we also had a few tablets that we had some groups that happened via zoom on these tablets. as we start today open up more for groups. now we have about half a housing unit. and they do come out for groups. there are two groups scheduled today. with a staffing challenges, sometimes the groups later on in the day are canceled because we don't have enough staff to maintain that. so we're definitely impacted. i mention the parenting

program, they have started back up recently over last few weeks in both county jail 2 and 3. the contact visits we've done some through over the last several months. right now since september s the man of county jail 3 are able to participate in contact visits with their children. and we're working with a jail justice, we're collaborating with visiting this new county jail two for the incarcerated moms. that space should be ready in mid-december but in the interim we have a plan to have contact visits in using our gym at the top of the floor which is not bad idea but just to have the visits open. the covered program, when we

first started, we totally had 48 men in one housing unit dedicated to veteran services. the veteran population in custody has greatly reduced over the years. and we even before covid, we didn't have many that was in custody. and because of the veteran justice court which really seeks to get all of that into treatment as quickly as possible and out into the community. so they do a great job. right these numbers are until the end of october so it's pretty dynamic. at the same time, we had three we had them housed together and they were doing groups every day. and then the vets that were not there, were seen, we were seeing them individually. next slide. i want to mention.

we would have education quarter of the jail and any persons who were able to go for classification could go into that classroom from different housing units. because of the staffing what we have now, is we have the city college class happen in one unit. so it reduces the number that it can go. but it is happening. we also have a collaboration with stanford university. there is one currently happening at two housing units. and i want today mention the collaboration wlt san francisco library. they're an amazing partner, they distributed books so they go to the jails every week.

they also, one of the liberians does a trans representation in media group that is in our tgn housing unit. >> okay, so out of respect for mr. rosenthal and mr. eure, i would like to try and if that does not work, maybe tell them that we'll delay. i will try to do a conference call and then we'll come back. >> thank you. >> hi i'm going to try a conference call with you and dr. rosenthal.

ob, we're going to try this by phone, we don't want you to have you, just know that we may have to continue with this some other day. are you both there? >> yes, richard is here. >> and phil is here as well. >> okay. is this loud enough for us to continue? >> yeah.

>> i can hear you. >> that's can they hear us? >> can you hear us? >> i can hear you, yes. >> okay, i think, you were asking a question? >> yeah, thank you both for being with us in this era of technology that we're still sorting out and figuring out our se.z i want today thank dr. rosenthal for sharing all the things that you shared on what it takes to sustain and maintain was definitely heard, taking great care and who he is that we bring on as a ig, not shying away from experts and being flexible as a body was take great away. and then when i began to share

with philip, what i wanted hear was just since you were the first ig at nypd, what are, as a self-reflection piece. what are some things that you would share with incoming ig knowing that you were in the role with the things you know now versus whether you came in as one. and also being able to hear from you both, just even and dr. rosenthal you shared some things. but maybe a little bit more on advise for a new oversight body that is now charge and responsible for working through bringing on this new ig? maybe outside of some of the things that were recently shared? >> yes, can you hear me okay now? >> yes. >> so in terms of things that i would share, having started and things to keep in mind for the new ig and for the board,

whoever you hire is going to have to be nimble and we can use a long list of adjectives that describe what you need in the ig. there is a lot of stakeholders within the police department not just police officials and executive staff but the police union and other city agencies, corporation council the city attorney's office and the mayor's office sometimes. and of course the community which is diverse and sprawling and in the city such as san francisco and new york. you need somebody with a people skills to manage those relationship. it's not easy, these are tough jobs. but those relationships need minding. and key to that is hiring a good staff, whether it's the ig or people immediately under the ig, i would argue in some agencies, most agency right side important and the second

in command, the heads of the different units in the oversight entity. you know, whether it be the head of the investigation and head of policy units. those people need the substance and knowledge, they're charged with and having familiarity with engagement and police reform issues. but they need people skills too. and i would just, as board members, even though it will be the ig's duty to hire people under them, the board members will want to pay close attention from them. >> absolutely. >> i can go on and on but those are things to focus on. >> i think you hit on the question for me.

>> the record should reflect that member palmer joined the meeting at 5:05 p.m. we're hearing from dr. rosenthal and phil eure and they're speaking about best practices for recruiting and selecting an inspector general and for establishing an entity. so we had technical problem with the webex feed so we're using a cell phone and they're taking questions. so other, do other board members have questions? one question i have is the issue of establishing the knowledge skills and abilities for recruiting the head of an

oversight entity. here it's called an inspect or general. what do you see as the challenges there? and advise you have? >> so this is richard rosenthal. i want to understand what you're asking, it seems how do you come up with, in essence the job description and the knowledge skills and abilities skills to do the job? a good news a lot of agencies have already done that. and frankly, inspect or general's office would be a good start. but take a look at what they've

got and among you, is a commission that has to figure out what is most important to you and make it your own. so i would be taking, i would be asking the recruitor or your staff to identify some agencies and obtain the job recruitment, they all have them. or the inspect or lapd inspector another good one. and frankly between those three, i think you would find enough example that you would be able to craft your own job announcement and description that would be really affective. >> thank you. and dr. rosenthal, when you and i talked earlier this week or

last week, you were relating about the recruitment, that you participated for the state of washington, i think it's an independent investigation bureau. and the difficulty of finding qualified applicants and needing to look in unconventional placed something to that affect? >> yeah, now the washington office is a little unique in the united states. they're conducting criminal investigations that police uses a deadly force throughout the whole state. it's the only type that sticks to the type in the u.s. and modeled on the canadian mold. we spent, we used a recruiter and we also spent a lot of time shaking trees trying to find people.

we actually found an excellent director who was a judge but it was by happenstance. one of the key points is often the people who are the most qualified for these positions are not necessarily even looking for a job. they need to be reached out. they need to know that the job is out there and know that they are potentially, you have an interest in them so that's where a recruiter aggressive recruiter is an interesting thing to have. i have not aware until phil rementioned, it sounds like the new york mayor's office reached out to him as a head of washington dc. and that's the thing that needs to be done. we found our director because i ended up speaking to the director in maryland and this individual called him and found

out that he was interested. so it's things like that it's a lot of networking, it's a lot of searching, a lot of candidates. >> this is phil, great suggestion, this is phil just adding an a quick additional suggestion. there is a conference, you're not going to wait until the next conference to network. but i heard about the new york job also at a aco conference. even though they're not going to wait until next september's conference to start shaking the trees for your ig. you should consider reaching out to some of the board members of naco and others in the organization. as or certainly the executive recruitment firm, and perhaps they're already do this sort of thing.

>> thank you, another question i have is you were asked about the time frame could you each if you recall give us the time frame for the other informations? --positions and whether that was handled to a recruitment firm or through internally through a city or community's department of human resources? >> this is going back more than 20 years and i want to say that i'm not putting up the hiring practices used by washington or new york as best practices necessarily but the time frame to answer your question, i believe i got an offer in, i'm

sorry, started off, so i'm a little hazy on the exact month. but i want to say that it was nine months for from me applying to when i started off the agency, that was a three quarters of near easily maybe off a month or two. and there was a lot of pressure because of i'll be honest on this, the board took their time and in getting hiring process up and running. so a lot of time was spent as they were getting themselves together. and once they hired me, it was, hurry up and open up this agency. so, short, based on the--but, and there is plenty for the

your board to busy themselves with in this process and doing other things. you should, not take a long amount of time but recognize that this could take four or five months or longer. >> and dr. rosenthal your experiences? >> well very similar, again going back to 20 years is a little too far in portland. friends new about it from--l.a. mine generally took 6 to 9 months on the time from the recruitment until i joined the office in portland and denver and even british columbia. one really important thing to point out is that, of the independent critical investigation axes and that's, i studied them globally and

every one of them had huge challenges and start up. and the idea was, it was very much this thing of they hire somebody and they know, it was, they hire somebody and they immediately wanted that person to start. so in british columbia, we started within six months and we were not ready. and the result was very bad poor start up for the first two to three years of the organization. and so, if you have an agency like you're trying to create, which is to be competent thorough investigations, it takes more time to start those up. you know, have to have policies and procedures in place. you have to be of hired qualified people. and so frankly, the only organization that was successful and start up was manitoba of all places because it took them a year to hire

their director and gave the director two years to get started. so in washington, the director finally got hired, it took us trying to remember, i think we started the process in october of november, we did not get the director on board until july. and now he's saying the soonest he can start is it in january. and one big issue frankly, is finding a good candidate is salary. you know, you get what you pay for, does apply here. so a lot of places for example, i know boisei idaho, for years and years tried to hire somebody but they simply were not offering a living wage or appropriate wage and that

happened in lots of cities. you really want to make sure that the salary is comiss rate with the responsibilities and that will bring potentially good candidates in. >> anymore questions, hearing none, thank you for being here. and our apologies for the technical difficulties. good night. thank you. at this point, we'll take public comment on this item?

>> we're unable to take public comment web ex is not working. and they're not answering the phone. >> does that mean that member a of public would be unable to call in the phone. let's wait until the city attorney clark returns and get her advise about this issue. thank you, dan.

. >> okay. sure. i was wondering whether one of the other slots that you had indicated sf gov. tv was open and i think it was. >> i think it was the second tuesday if you have those, that document? >> preference, it does not have to be on sf gov., but it does

have to be video [indiscernible] [volume low] >> okay. and do you have that schedule? >> it was the first and third monday in this room, first tuesday from 8 to 12. and second tuesday from 8 to 5. fourth wednesday room 4.

well since three of our members are two of our members are not present, that's something that we will discuss. it will not be a substitution for the first meeting on friday but a subsequent if board members are available. so we do have a motion to adjourn. is there a second? >> second. >> thank you, can you please call the roll. >> we can do all in favor. >> thank you very much, the meeting is adjourned at 5:25 p.m. thank you all. [meeting adjourned]

>> you know i've always wanted to do this job that drives my parents crazy we want to help people i wasn't i did not think twice about that. >> i currently work as cadet inform the san francisco sheriff's department i've been surprised 0 work within criminal justice system field i had an opportunity to grow within that career path. >> as i got into the department and through the years of problems and everything else that means a lot i can represent women and in order to make that change how people view us as a very important part of the vice president you have topanga you have to the first foot chase through the fight are you cable of getting that person whether large or small into captivity that is the

test at times. >> as an agent worked undercover and prevent external and internal loss to the company it was basically like detective work but through the company from that experience and the people that i worked around law enforcement that gave me an action when i came to be a cadet i saw i was exploded to more people and the security he was able to build on that. >> unfortunately, we have a lot of women retire to recruiting right now is critical for us we gotten too low faster the percentage of women in the department and us connecting with the community trying to get people to realize this job is definitely for them our community relations group is

out attempt all the time. >> in other words, to grow in the fields he capitalized any education and got my bachelors degree so i can current work at city hall i provide security for the front of the building and people are entering entering but within any security or control within the building and checking personal bags is having a awareness of the surrounded. >> there is so month people the brunet of breaking into this career that was every for easier for me had an on the with an before he cleared the path for laugh us. >> my people he actually looking at lucid up to poem like he joe and kim and merit made they're on the streets working redondo hard their cable of

doing this job and textbook took the time to bring us along. >> women have going after their goals and departments line the san francisco sheriff's department provide a lot of training tools and inspiring you to go into the department. >> they gave me any work ethics she spider me to do whatever he wanted to do and work hard at the intersection. >> if you're going to make change you have to be part of change and becoming law enforcement i wanted to show women could do this job it is hard not easy. >> finds something our compassion about and follow roll models and the gets the necessary skeletals to get to that goal with education and

sprirmz whatever gets you there. >> if this is what you want to do dream big and actually do what you desire to do and you can go vertebrae far it is a fast job i wouldn't do anything else. >> ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪

♪♪ >> san francisco! ♪♪

>> this is an exhibition across departments highlighting different artworks from our collection. gender is an important part of the dialogue. in many ways, this exhibition is contemporary. all of this artwork is from the 9th century and spans all the way to the 21st century. the exhibition is organized into seven different groupings or themes such as activities, symbolism, transformation and others. it's not by culture or time period, but different affinities between the artwork. activities, for example, looks at the role of gender and how certain activities are placed as feminine or masculine.

we have a print by uharo that looks at different activities that derisionly performed by men. it's looking at the theme of music. we have three women playing traditional japanese instruments that would otherwise be played by men at that time. we have pairings so that is looking within the context of gender in relationships. also with how people are questioning the whole idea of pairing in the first place. we have three from three different cultures, tibet, china and japan. this is sell vanity stot relevar has been fluid in different time periods in cultures. sometimes being female in china but often male and evoking

features associated with gender binaries and sometimes in between. it's a lovely way of tying all the themes together in this collection. gender and sexuality, speaking from my culture specifically, is something at that hasn't been recently widely discussed. this exhibition shows that it's gender and sexuality are actually have been considered and complicated by dialogue through the work of artists and thinking specifically, a sculpture we have of the hindu deities because it's half pee male and half male. it turns into a different theme in a way and is a beautiful representation of how gender hasn't been seen as one thing or a binary.

we see that it isn't a modest concept. in a way, i feel we have a lot of historical references and touch points throughout all the ages and in asian cultures. i believe san francisco has close to 40% asian. it's a huge representation here in the bay area. it's important that we awk abouk about this and open up the discussion around gender. what we've learned from organizing this exhibition at the museum is that gender has been something that has come up in all of these cultures through all the time periods as something that is important and relevant. especially here in the san francisco bay area we feel that it's relevant to the conversations that people are having today. we hope that people can carry that outside of the museum into their daily lives.

>> >> my name is sofy constantineo and a documentary film maker and cinema togfer, producer and director. it is inevable you want your movie to get

out and realize yoi need to be a commune tee organizer to get people together to see the story you will tell [inaudible] pretty rich and interesting. in what we do as film makers is try to tell the best story possible so i think that is where i [inaudible] learn everything. lighting and cinematography. i got jobs of stage manger at some place and projectionist. i kind of mixed and matched as i went and kept refining i feel like it isn't just about making things that are beautiful and appealing and rich and [inaudible] the way that the films [inaudible] it has to tell a story. >> my name is sumell [inaudible] free lance multimedia produce. my project is [inaudible] mostly oof street photographry with a few portraits. i'm

going arounds san francisco and capturing the [inaudible] as we started to do this project i was reading about the decline of african american population in san francisco and i wondered where the remaining population was and what they were doing and how life was for them. >> i wasn't very inspired by school, i wasn't very inspired by continuing to read and write and go to class. i watched a lot of movies and saw a lot of [inaudible] i said that is what i want to do. i had this very feminist [inaudible] and i felt like there was not enough of a womans vision on the stuff that we see, the movies that we make and the beginning of the [inaudible] the way we look at women and the roles women take in the

stories being tolds. they felt [inaudible] they did want feel complex. i was like, i have a different frame i like to see the world shaped by. >> my grandsmother was a teacher and taught special education for 40 years in los angeles and when i was growing up she inspired me to record everything. we recorded our conversations, we recorded the [inaudible] we recorded everything to cassette players. learning multimedia skills, from the other crossover employment opportunities for young people. someone who grew up in la rks san francisco feels like a small town. i lived in western addition and i was looking for someone to cut my hair, i found [inaudible] he seemed

like a very interesting guy and grew up in the neighborhood and had a lot to say about something that was foreign to me. that local perspective and so important to me because i think as someone who isn't from here, knowing that history allows me to be more engaging in the community i live in and want the same for others. i want people to move into a new neighborhood to know who was there before and businesses and what cultural and [inaudible] shape what we see today. >> my guiding principles have been, if you stick to something long enough and know what it is and go for it you will get there. [inaudible] where i want to go, what i want to do and it is totally possible so, the impossible is you know, is not something to listen to. all right, thank yo

everyone in the community for participating in the great shakeout. i don't have everyone's attention, i would love to have it here. thank you so much. so our great shakeout instructs our students and staff on what to do in a real earthquake. it is key to practice and prepare for an actual earthquake. we are honored to have our special guest here today participating in our great shakeout as well. i would like to introduce our san francisco mayor london breed to talk more about the great shakeout. [ applause ] mayor london breed: first i would like to thank you for

letting us join you all. thank you for welcoming me to the classroom. it's great to be back at everett. in fact i was here a couple years ago and it's great to be here with you at the great shakeout. i have a question, how many were alive during the 1989 earthquake? you guys were really alive? in fact i was alive and i was in high school at the time. so i'm not completely sure that you were alive, but the fact is during that earthquake, it was a very challenging time for our city, but the good news is that we were prepared because the entire time that i grew up in san francisco and went to school like everett. i went to benjamin franklin listen and my brother went to everett and galileo high school and every year we did

drills like this. as soon as it happened, we were prepared and we knew what to do. i remember learning about being prepared and going home and telling my grandmother all the things that we needed to do to keep in place so that we can take care of one another just in case an earthquake hit. i want you all to take the information that we had in class and to make sure that you go home and work with your parents to ensure that when an earthquake hits because it's not about if but when. san francisco is earthquake territory. it's inevitable. i want to be sure that every student at every middle school is prepared for that. can we agree with that? [ cheers and applause ] all right. i'm really excited to be here to really pay attention to preparedness and earthquakes and really bring a number of disaster preparedness people in san francisco. if a disaster hits, the people

behind me, most of them, including myself, we are going to be responsible for keeping you all safe. so, thank you so much for allowing us here to talk to you about what we need to do to make sure that everyone is prepared when the big one comes to san francisco. and with that, i would like to introduce the president of the san francisco school board jenny lam. all right. [ cheers and applause ] >> good morning, hello everett community. it's so wonderful to be here with you all this morning. i'm excited to be here to participate in the shakeout. i want to thank the principal and all the educators and staff at everett for hosting us this morning and all the work you do everyday for our students. every year on the initiatives of the big one in 1989, i also was in high school, mayor breed. i still remember that day, that

afternoon. i left tennis practice early, and i was in the hallway and the lockers started shaking so loud that i just thought it was a bunch of students running around making a lot of noise. then i quickly knew what had happened and i was alone in that hallway. i was very fortunate to have a school counselor that came out of his office and immediately offered me a ride home because i knew i had someone waiting for me at home and that was my eight year old little sister. just now i was thinking about the moment i opened the front door and saw her underneath our dining room table and the look on her face. i know many of you are also taking care of your younger siblings. i want to share that story and to know that everyone was safe with my

family. what happened this morning? this morning at 10:20, students and staff participated in the drop cover and hold drill. every was in position for 30 seconds. i know it seemed longer when we were squeezed under our desk. after our drill we evacuated into the evacuation area. it's really a reality as mayor breed said. it's not just how but really when the big next earthquake will hit our city. all of our schools have detailed evacuation plans in case of an emergency, and we encourage all of our students and our families to develop your plans. today you received this postcard to making sure you have a plan. it's so critical to know what to do not only during an earthquake but very much important what we

are going to do after an earthquake in terms of keeping safe and taking care of one another. i'm very privileged to having these special people here this morning as they work everyday to keep us safe. i'm going to introduce the emergency manager mary ellen. [ cheers and applause ] >> good morning, i'm mary ellen, this fancy title but i am the master of disaster in san francisco. when something goes wrong, we try to fix things and make them better. you did an incredible job. i would like to say thanks to robert and javier. in this case of earthquakes, you probably know more than most adults. so you all are experts.

just like the mayor said, when you go home, we want you to talk to your families and share what you learned so your family and friends are also safe. the other part of my job is i run the 911 center. so you all know the number to call, right? i wanted to say it if something happens, what is the three numbers that you call? >> 911. >> it's 911. good job. anyway, we practice this every year because we haven't had earthquakes in a really long time, but it could happen at any moment. i want to thank you for doing what you are doing to help our city which is to make sure that you are safe if an earthquake happens. so good job. it was great to meet all of you and remember what you learned today. thanks.

[ applause ] >> you. >> well to the epic center are you ready for the next earthquake did you know if you're a renter you can get

earthquake shushes we'll take to the earthquake authorities hi welcome to another episode i'm the chief resilience officer for san francisco i'm joined by my good friends for the earthquake authority we're at the el cap center for the city and county of san francisco started in 2013 to get the community and talk about the risk we think about earthquake if usual great city you'll see one of the demonstrates we've built the model home and i encourage other episodes we'll be retroactively retrofitting and showing you as property owners to employ you work for the california earthquake

authority talk about your role and earthquake shirnls up think the viewers want to know if you're a renter or property owner how the insurance issues. >> i'm the chief mitigation officer or c e a a property line funded pubically managed entity that provides earthquake shiners for one to four units and mobile owners to come down and renters throughout the state of california. >> what make the c e a deft. >> we work with 19 participates the insurer that sells you, your homeowner policy you're not obligated to buy it but you can buy a policy. >> am i covered with homeowners insurance. >> no california homeowners understand their homeowners insurance doesn't cover

earthquake they need a separate policy if you're an shiners you can get the earthquake insurance policy. >> so explain why it is for the c e a is deft if a traditional insurance agency. >> irreverent so in the 80s the state of california passed a law that requires any company that writes the policies to over earthquake insurance the homeowners are not required by commissioner cranshaw can bye there was so much loss they were going to stop writing the insurance policies for earthquakes they wanted to stop a serious insurance policy. >> we're talking about the homeownership's buying the earthquake shiners but 70 percent are renters what's my opposite. >> the option for renter the earthquake be insurance company is affordable i think people don't realize just exactly what

it covers it covers damaged property but loss of use if you have to be under a building they have a quarter main that was broken as well as emergency repair if interests glass breaks in the carpet you need to be in our unit that's whether earthquake is important. >> you're title you're the excessive mitigation officer for the state of california when i think of insurance i don't think about mitigation. >> so as part of public safety mission the c e a started to put aside mitigation loss fund 5 percent of invested income and when i joined the company 34 years ago we had $45 million to make a difference for moving and incentivizing and mitigation for california homeowners to structure engineering a unique opportunity to cervical

homeowners to help them to mitigate the equivalent. >> whether an owner or renter i want to find more information about earthquake insurance where should i go. >> earthquake authority.com not only information about insurance but a calculated figures and as of january lots of deductible and 25 percent if a homeowner mitigate their hope up to 20 percent off their premium as an incentive for the work. >> what does mitigate the home mean. >> strengthen, renovate, retrofit through a home particularly older to earlier codes and you put in adding streamlining maybe collar bolts to tie to the foundation or to the wall so it is braced to earthquake can be very, very

affordable and really makes a difference. >> thank you very much for being with us i encourage the viewers not only to checkout the earthquake authority but we'll talk about

>> good afternoon, everyone, thank you for joining us this afternoon. welcome to the bar association program on recall elections in the state of california. we are really excited that all of you can join us this afternoon to hear a very dynamic and well-informed conversation about recalls in our grailt state. my name is yolanda jackson, i'm the director of the bar association in san francisco and justice center. some would say that recall elections seem to be happening more frequently now more than ever in our state. in resent years since 2018, we have seen i may be missing a few, we have seen recall in the sonoma, los angeles d.a.'s race, the state governor newsom race, the senator josh newman race, and the san francisco

school board a year or so go and then just perksy in san jose which i'm sure many of you are familiar with. i want to start with having our speakers introduce themselves and then we'll make our way into the questions for our great speakers here. david, why don't we start with you. >> hi everybody, david executive director of california constitution law. >> larry. >> larry professor mertis university, co-author of two books on both the gubernatorial elections in california. >> jamar haner. >> survivor of 7 recall i would

love to not make that 8. >> joshua. >> josh, before mention josh newman recall. i serve senate for the 29th district. i have the distinction of being recalled and regained which gives me a particular perspective on this conversation. it's great to be here. >> thank you and joshua. >> research fellow at the constitution center and author of recall elections. and i would like to recall last 12 years. >> okay. so to our guests, if you have any questions, please enter the questions into the q & a feature, you will not be able to do that in the chat feature. however in the chat feature, you'll be able to get the materials used for this program. so you have any questions,

please use the q&a feature. i'm going to ask this question, are you pro recall or against recall elections in the current state of law that it is now, the current rules, the current processes and procedures? so i'm going to start with at the stop, jamar. >> i think con is what they are, as a democracy we have to check in on the tools to see if they're in line with our values. and from a transparency, one person one vote, we're getting a little bit far away from that. so it is time for to us take another look at it. >> okay, joshua? >> there is definitely changes that could be made but i think that there are power vasly overstated. they have been very limited

actor in california despite the resent explosion of recalls on the state level. >> okay, josh newman. >> as you may expect with my intro, i'm with jamar. i think the recall has out lived the purpose and it's in need of reform and its current state subject to gaining gainsmanship and as you saw we should look at some reforms. >> okay, larry? >> too much unanimousity here. i see a place for recall as a bumper guard to protect, you know, extreme cases of of abusing one's power but certainly not the way it is right now.

i think it's much too easy to exercise and cause a lot of problems. >> okay, and david. >> well i will disrupt the uninimity. it's a important tool and some people call it a weapon and it's not inaccurate. but the people judiciary, it's fair on the recalls are quite rare, even though it seems they're happening everywhere all the time now. in the grand scheme of things, it's not exactly true. but that said, being a reasonable person i agree with my colleagues, there are always ways to improve tools and prevent gainmanship. i have a couple of reforms that i would be in favor of. >> great. so the next question, it's whenever wants to answer first,

the next question what are recall elections and what do they look like in california on the local and state level? and historically why were these laws created? >> david carrillo is in a good position to answer. >> i was going to differ to professor garstim but fine. the historical along democracy reforms in they felt that the state was taken over by the basic interest. those are all historical facts. so progressive felt returning power to the people and allowing them to directly legislator remove corrupt or non performing legislate tours, those weapons and tools were the best means of not just returning power to the people but returning democracy.

that was the original justification. >> anybody else? >> that is a good summary. >> yes, that's correct. of the abusive along the country and california and several other states from the midwest to far west. and you explained it why it happened here. >> so some have said even though it started with the railroad industry. that is now kind of being taken by big technology, either inter tees or individuals? is there any truth to that?

>> when you say it's being taken over. history has replaced railroad as the bad guys so to speak. i think it's, it's far broader than that in terms of potential forces that do disservice to it? service, we could spend the rest of this time talking about various powers interest groups and big businesses. royal industries of this type of thing. that basically, exercise tremendous power over legislature. >> it's far more fair against the initiative process. in the recall context, arguably the po at this time cal parties have been the biggest players. and when you see a distinct

absence of big internet corporate interest like, facebook or lyft or uber, you do see them in the initiative context. >> the biggest misconception that i've recall it falls under the ballot measure generally for the state of california in terms of transparency and other things. a lot of the concerns that people generally express with proposition whatever side, you can pour a bunch of money and some things will happen. that's what we play the california not the committee role. >> the importance is the initial step in carrying a recall is process. so if it's statutory, that recall components have to reach

in order to get the question on ballot and then the question on the ballot is, it's a two-part question. the first recall and with whom would you replace him or her. and you know, my argument which you'll hear is the precedence of the second question that has created a whole partisan mischief if you will. >> really policy base and not, not at all partisan, as many have partisan issues, they're generallier one party or the other. while you may say it differently about the d.a., the san francisco d.a., that there was a lot of money given by some tech backers but generally

they're very issue focus. and i'm glad you raise the idea because if i have it correct, unlike the california recall where there is two-part process. in the case of d.a., the mayor -- ~>> charter city. >> right. so she has the power in this case to appoint an interim d.a. we need to be aware of some differences. my interest primary is at the state level. >> you're right, there is three categories that we should look like and they don't overlap. one is state wide official recalls which is defined by the state constitution. then there is general law city procedures by recalls which are set by statute and then charter cities which are the option of doing recall and they can create whatever procedures they want. >> okay.

so josh bebac how california recall compare to other states where they may be doing it differently or better? >> there is a lot of election in the recall, the recall is not a west only mexico president is recalled this year. taiwan has been very active in recalls. but in california we have this one-day two-step process which is vote on the official, vote yes no and then vote for a replacement. in many states there is no statement, there is an appointment. there is a snap election, we saw that in which is withs where it was just a new election.

in some places, there is a two-day process, where as recall and then days or months later, and in other places that candidate with run into the replacement race and they can win that. in massachusetts, the candidate ran, the mayor ran and won even though he was recalled in that same race. >> okay. so why do we have these laws? why do they exist and what was the intended purpose from the beginning of time? and what do you think the intended purpose is now. >> i cannot speak to the beginning of time but the progressive ideas that we talked about a moment ago. that was the rational behind the recall, at the time the sun of pacific railroad voting for people was not enough. there had to be an opportunity to remove people for whatever reason that they proved to be

unsatisfactory to the voters. and that basic reason still applies here today because, because california is not what you call malfesant base. >> i understand though that again in the origination, part of the reason may have been to get rid of corrupt politicians. that threshold where does that exist in measuring that before somebody can be challenged and a recall being filed against them? >> there has to be corruption, that's one reason. so if somebody gets caught taking a bag of money from facebook or railroad, that is obvious recall. but newman described it as bad

faith. and that's something in the subjective in the minds of voters. and you learn what voters think when they go to the ballot box. >> if you go back to look at their recall election, gavin newsom, a year ago, the process best to the ability, a dozen or so reasons, they didn't like the taxes, they didn't like the k-12 registration. >> covid rules. >> but not any of those reasons had to do about corruption. we can say a lot of things about gavin newsom but there is no allegations of breaking law and there was only policies that people did not popular

policies. >> it was intended but never intended to be a requirement. it was not then and it was not now. >> it's important to remember the validation step in the expectation by the framers, is that if a politician elected, manifested bad faith the proof was the securing of the threshold what we saw in governor newsom's recall, because the pandemic, the judge allowed the extension of the time limit. without any recall -- ~>> corruption was not, it was mentioned but it was not focused in the debate it was corruption in the general sense and that's what i don't like about that a official. if you go back to 19 03 bh l.a. adopted it, you'll see it was

not just, hey they knew about the limitation. another factor that is not necessarily in california in many cases we have increased the terms. and you see this in 1992 where they moved from 2 year to 4 year and at the time they adopted a recall statute. they were always much shorter in recall history. if we're going to give them more time in office, we should give the voters a way to take them out. >> of course in california, we had of any state, the strictest, we also have the strictest term limit law. so if you think about it, we're really tying a lot of hands

here. very strict term limits, you cannot run again once you're out and done unlike most states with term limits. and as i said, the toughest one in terms of making it impossible, for the governor to run again, as part of the b part if you will. or, or any other way, like the lult governor stepping in or several. it's strange combination here. >> so camarah, you represented a lot of recall, what do you think of this being so low in terms of what you need to do to put somebody in the recall. >> i think, that in an ideal world, i think that's great. i think where we are currently, unfortunately, an apology any

other political consultant on zoom, politics is also a business and has become a cottage industry. this now allows for whoever to say, let's start a recall and the first thing a campaign manager is going to say, what are the limits, how much money is can we make and pend, and it's unlimited. you can have as much as you want come from when are ever, and the things you're generally concerned about and that the fact that we don't have any disclosure requirements in the terms of silt sens united. fior me, i care about transparency and the other guard rails that we have in most other parts of our elections or should and whether

it's propositions or other things, where we don't have them, whether family industry, dialysis, those are really great ways to spend observe, a big amount of money and what is different here is you get to give it directly to a candidate committee unlike any other candidate election. unlike 10 million dollars here you can say, your honor, here's 10 million dollars i want to save your career. just from a balance. >> and just to be clear, it's unlimited fund race for those facing the recall and those against the recall. >> 100%. >> and i'm going to look to you david. how many recall elections have we had in california since these laws were enacted? >> this is from the article, we

submitted as part of the materials. all california from 19 11 to 2021, 179 petitions only 11 qualified which 6% of filed. of succeeded at the ballot, which is 55ish of qualified. so you've got 5 recall legislature and one recall governors. the other petitions either failed to qualify which is a 96 failure rate. we have only resent years worth of data centered to the century worth of 179 at the state level. so just in the last ten years, saw 155 local recall drives. 139 of the petitions qualified which is 20%. 86% succeeded at the ballot

which is 62% of qualified. last at the ballot is about an 85% failure rate overall. >> thank you. >> so sing we touched on this a little bit but i'm going to ask the question more pointient for you to answer. what are the positives on a recall. >> i was going to say i think a positive can be, if involved in a right way, it rewards the ground game talking every single one of your neighbors, the part of no cra see that you like. if you have a strong field game as opposed to relying on the tv commercials. like anything else, i think that part is fine. >> larry?

>> look, there is benefit to removing somebody from office who really doesn't belong there because of behavior that people believe is not right. even if it's not illegal, unethical. there is a reason for the recall. if it's set to a high bar i guess. and like a lot of things, direct democracy is good when people really are involved beyond pushing the lever, or beyond filling out the ballot. when they really are aware of what is going on. to the extent that it heightens awareness, that's another good thing about it. i mean, there is some good things about it. i think most of us believe that, that they're good right now is, impacted adversely i think by some of the other

things that we will talk about later on. >> can i go? >> yes. >> i would look at it in reverses. you would be pissed if you didn't have it in the following three circumstances. number one, while trump was president, i bet everybody would be happy to launch a recall against him. here in california, judge percent--persky, a woman rallied the troops and lead a bomb burning, people were pissed, they wanted him out and they made that happen. jason goode, kind of same thing. some wealthy people donated the money to do the signature drive, fine. that does not change the fact that over 50% of san franciscoian voted to recall him. they wanted him out.

people would have been angier if they had no ability to make their opinions felt at the ballot box and we were just forced to ride it out. >> i've got with you on this one. in two of those cases, the best of my knowledge there were no breakages or violations of the law whatever. people didn't like the way they were carrying out the responsibilities. to me, that's the reason because i don't like a person is doing something. we have elections for that. scheduled elections. and as far as trump goes, okay, there may be in fact that has been illegal. once again, and i'm talking about trump here, until these things are proven, even then we have to hold back. this idea of, to me it borders

on whimsical. how they somebody else might recall better and then, we vote. but to make it easy for no reason other than win, i think that underlines the democratic process. >> it's not so simple, or we would have them all the time. one of the big arguments here is the amount of voters who support rerlds. not based on polls polls, don't really mean too much. in california, when in 1911, it was over 70, it was like 75%. new jersey adopted in 1993, 75%. minnesota had a in 1996, they adopted it with this malfeasent.

it would have destroyed the recall in san francisco. more people voted against that ballot measure than voted against hudin. so even people who were in favor of huedin did not want to lose that power. >> so can i ask a question about huedin race. i think you said, 72% -- ~>> no, 50%. is that preventive, 55. >> okay, was there only 20% of the voter base or the voting population that voted? i think it was extremely low. so i just wanted to clarify

that and that was the question we had in the audience. >> if people loved him, why didn't they vote against the recall. >> good question. >> sometimes i do see that question, and sometimes it's low and sometimes had thes high. 2003 saw proof, same thing with sky walker in wisconsin in 2012 versus when he was elected in 2010. so recalls is not just this low turn out race. it could be a very high turn out race. >> you're right and in the dennis recall people were angry for a number of things that happened. not just one thing. and out of that anger, they did vote in higher numbers than we normally expect.

>> so another question from the audience, is it naive at best that money does not have an over sized affect on the election. the huedin recall was not about money. >> every election money has an outside impact. >> let me actually if i can illustrate it in my own experience. i was elected to the senate in 2016 and to raise gas tax. and because i had won a seat in hill, one of the most closely contested election in the past cycle, i was the one member targeted for that recall, house voted but it was 26 democrats and one republican.

and the narrative that i had arbitrated the recall. the money had come from state. and that money paid for, you know, gathering the signatures, and had got to the ballot and to the earlier district, it was a low primary vote in which the recall ballot took place and fewer people voted for my recall than voted. than the recall. and that runs counter to the framers to remove a corrupt malfeasent or bad faith appointed >> the fact that in general, laws will regular elections don't apply to recalls.

they're always one off, they're always special elections. there is no contribution limits. all of these things can be fixed along with replace candidate by statute. so the legislature can make the independent candidate apply to replacement candidate so they have to get 1% of the voters, all of this can fixed by statute. >> it's not whether money should be because it's a fabt of life, if you play the game like foul, it's a question of voters wanting to know where the money is coming from. i hope that nobody is arguing about that. >> and i'm in favor because it's so easy because they can do it by statute. >> was it david, easy relative term.

>> amending the constitution. >> yeah, we're going to get to that question. >> so another question from the audience is, are recalled from--is it en thaous aist for people who oppose the elect than those who support the status quo. >> let me start, and other folks can step in. so we made a change legislatively to allow for the partisan designation of the targeted to be included in that line. but previously, that was not the case. so what you had, an elected official, yet most people don't know who represents them, 10% of voters can answer the question unprompted. soing there was an implicit bias that came into play. if you had two questions. should sean should be removed from office.

well tom tom, may have done something wrong. but six candidate and and that voting, what the hell, i don't know who tom is, but i get to choose somebody from my party, why not, why not. so we change that but i still thing there is a bit of a bias against the incumbent once it gets to the ballots. once recalls get to the ballot they're more likely to succeed. >> a little bit, we skal calculated at 55%. >> the one stat that really goes through my mind, i did expect, somebody calls are on special election days and some are general election days or primary days if they can tie it to those they do, you would have thought that the special elections were more likely to succeed. in fact they're less likely to succeed.

so you're more likely to survive a recall in a special election than a another election. so it's not that big of a difference. it's really do we dislike this person or not. >> but josh, other kind of questions causation, in a special election, that's the one thing. in a general election, you come to the ballot for a lot of reasons. it may not have familiarity with the person subject to recall. it's hard to discern what is driving them. >> well actually, i could site this really great stat. in 2018, speaker of the assembly in michigan faced a recall. the speaker of the assembly face a recall. andy. and on that he's facing the recall on the same day that he's facing reelection day so

it's highest turn out day presidential election. he wins overwhelmingly. but 2000 voters. there is a huge difference between the turn out between his first vote and his recall, almost everybody who voted for him, to be recalled, also almost everybody voted against him also voted for the recall. it was a 2000 vote. so it's further down the ballot and yeah, as the thing, they did ignore it and get rid of other people who were focused. let's go both even if he was going to be there for three months. generally it's surprising. >> i think the biggest impact for special elections on the county general budget and i think that's one thing that some folks are concerned b they're born by the general

fund of whatever happening. there is no extra rainy day fund for elections. ish million. but especially for smaller countries, they don't have the general funds lying around because they have forest fires and other things that they panic about. it's about how much money does your county have lying around. >> so that takes me to my next question, jamarah, what are the cons to special election? we've heard the cons. we've heard the unlimited amount of money that can be thrown into these races. what would you say, how would you define smft negatives? >> i would say that recall a little bit of a recall broken records, but recall he lebs are the less transparent elections that i can think of, other than

american idol or something like that. there is not a lot of transparency and as we sit there more frequently, i appreciate the longer terms statistics but we look at a lot of things going on and much like a business, cash grab happening right now. all the more reason to put some guard rails on politicians but also on political consultants. >> aoufr saying. >> right. >> because of the money issue? >> correct. >> it does not come from anywhere. >> anything else. >> got you. >> exactly. >> let me answer it, which we touched on it but i think it's important so josh you mentioned the number of recall petition that's don't succeed that don't qualify. i would argue that that step probably has more deterious affect than people realize.

in the face of an attempted recall. it has, you know, a real challenge in succeeding as a public servant, and even if they don't succeed, the noise that they generate, the passions they unleash, clearly especially at the local level have been had a massive negative affect in the last ten years. >> can't really disagree. that somebody resigned. i would say that the negative is one of the things that jamarah mentioned that they would --that's what they did, they should not develop this because that's what would happen. i think that's negative of officials being scared.

not taking the steps that they should take, i think that argument is always there. the recall, the real basis for the recall, the goal here is philosophical between what is an elected official? or is it somebody that we're using as a representative who is there to establish our positions and the recall is very much that on the scale of represented model. so if you prefer that trustee model and many people did, alexander hamilton was a huge proponent of it and that's why he proposed recalls back in the constitutional days: but if you're a fan of that, yes, the recall is a big negative. and there are a lot of good arguments to be made, that would be a better situation if we had a more trusting model.

>> can i go? >> yes. . i would echo jamarah's comments about money and that's where i would focus. in three parts, i would increase the signature appointment, it a little too easy to qualify, i would make people spend a little more money, money standing in for serious and support. i would make it harder to become a replacement candidate. again it would cost more money, again showing seriousness and support. and i'm troubled by the that there are no legislature. >> i will agree with david in any own experience. as my recall started, one of the democratic caucus, said

i've got bad news and good news. bad news is this recall is going to qualify the good news is that you can raise as much money as you want. >> so professor, in our call when we talked about the signature threshold, you were the one that said there is a risk to lowering that and i hope i have the right person who weighed in, who said yes, we should increase number of signatures needed. but one of you thought there was a risk to doing that. >> it should be higher. but i don't know who it is. >> it was the legislature and unfortunately, i think it's real. moore importantly, i think it will be received as a, you know if it's a prevalent proposition.

>> doesn't that apply to anything? anybody who wants to attack a reform to the recall, their first argument will be to that it's self-serving. isn't that the first response that you get? >> i guess, depends on how it resonates. my proposal, i have a constitution amendment that i will introduce this year. as we touched on it earlier, is to restore, the recall as a mat per of integrity. but other reforms that many of us here, i think will consider, are really hard especially if you bundle them together. because it creates more service area for folks to shoot at and more doubt, as to whether or not this is good for me or them. >> can i go to josh's last

point for a second. you said, because this amendment you're proposing would eliminate the second question, no arguing with that. but my question is, how the governor or somebody else has been moved, what do we do? >> so you apply the same replacement processes that you would for others, so if the governor is removed, no different than if the governor died. if the constitutional officer is removed, no different than if the constitutional officer moves to the next regularly scheduled election. for a legislature no different than if i were to resign, that would wait for a special election. so doing, would you remove some of incentive to chin up, you know, a new election that would get you a different result than the most resent election. >> so just to follow fup, if i

understand you correctly, the lieutenant-governor would go ahead and be governor or acting governor. in the next election correct? if it's within different parties, what if they use this as an opportunity. you know, that is possible, it's also very enlightening in california, you're going to have it in the future. but that takes so much work. that it seems more likely that that governor is going to invest in simply running for governor. i can recall for the next 20 to 40 years. that does not bother me, simply because, i'm so much institutionalist, that's one of

the problems that i operate with. >> that does not bother me either. >> that model is issued in many states. and one of the things that we have not seen is that breaks down recalls. so oregon has that. and they have basically even the state is a fraction of a size, the same amount of recall as california in the local level. and they tried to recall the governor because there was a possibility that the replacement, it was very unclear would have been a particular an but it's not clear that it would have been. but they made serious efforts there. and they also got to the state. >> 500,000 signatures so they recall just in case the courts

adopt and say the lieutenant-governor should be in office. it's not clear that that would really help. but in fact, it could be like why don't we get all of those people at once? let's take that, let's take that approach. i don't see why they wouldn't. >> because you can put as many people in the petition as you want. >> and david made a point earlier, three different classes of he electricked official that pertain to each. right now i'm talking about slate level and above. for governoring law cities, we can change this statutory. we would make changes last year that make sense fpt but once you get to legislature constitutional official with governor, you know you're looking at a ballot proposition. so keep it simple and make it underable and compelling to the voters in order to secure their

incentive. >> so have any you, do you have a good example of when you think the recall process was abused? >> oh i do. [laughter] >> and tell us how you define abuse when you give your example. >> okay, if you want me, real quickly. so again, you know, elected fair and square close election, so closer to 3 weeks to determine a winner. along with 80 people cast a vote. i was the only member in the recall. i was known as the weak, orange

county, it was hard for them to believe that i won this election. and going in this constitutional to get rid of a democrat in red orange county. i warn you to my dine days, that was an abuse of the process. >> you know, senator newman and senator deminute, both over the democrats having a two-thirds majority. if you look all the way back to senator e grant in 19 14, it was similar, and the person he placed was the candidate that replaced him eddie wolfe. there were no recalls for a

long time. i think the judge is one to consider. it's very hard to say. should judge be elected and then face the recall. i think you have a really good case for that was really big discussion when you were adopting the recall in 19 10 lemg slate tour, it was a major topic in the 19 12 election, presidential election. so judicial, recall of judges is a kind of a very touchy complicated subject that did not work. >> and in l.a., can't council districts are million of people. we had an elected who beat a recall. so you would have had a recall and run off forever both within 8 months and that does not make sense. so it's a question of can you

wait 5 more minutes when it's literally months away, that's common. >> i think yolanda, i'm struggling with your word abuse. for my own definition, i guess, i would say the recall system with the newsom recall. no laws broken in issues in the way if you use it that way. and davis case, i think there was certainly the question of some abuse in his, unwillingness. one of the problem with the davis, we suddenly had a budget shortfall of 35-40 billion

dollars back in the day, we're talking 2002. and that almost all of that had been kept secret. it didn't come out, well to me, that's an abuse. that's an abuse, so i can understand why, why that moved forward and i would say that there is some legitimacy. but word use is abuse. >> what we're talking about is exploitation. so using my case as example they were exploiting. everybody agree that there is something off about that about the framers and in 2011, it was not thought about you may have majority, it was about something much larger more profound in that that's what was intended.

>> my response would be similar. i think one area where recalls trouble me is when they're deployed as tactical weapons by the political pearls themselves. so the example of a couple of people switched flags and that changed the speaker of the assembly or changed legislature majority control, that to me takes it out of the realm, the people are angry and it's much more partisan, political party warfare. i think that's what the recall is designed for not for. >> quick reminder anybody who has questions feel free to drop those in the q&a. my next question do you have example of when it works the way it was suppose to work or successful? or a good use of the process?

>> taking the k.k.k. out of that, the one that we could not sent the use of the recall process, that was in 1922. i can tell you that the recall finest hour was that it solved in 59, we think of 57 as the end of that. but 59 was the money. and i'm going to disagree with david and with others. i think the recalls of doris alan were exactly what you want to recall those for. those two officials switched from republican to democrat, or independent allowed willie brown to remain speaker as republicans won majority. that's a first political betrayal. you're voting for the candidate but you're also voting for the candidate to support a party.

and it's never been more important who dp s going to be in control. who is going to be the speaker? who is going to have control of the committees. so that official switch that vote and, and basically deprive, the reason you voted for them that they are comma democrat they would have lost. to at least have another shot of that person have a date on whether that person should survive or not. >> i'll agree. and i'll also say, i don't live in san francisco so i don't know about the recall. >> well the sentiment was justified because they got required signatures but to talk about big money including big money put in the removal side, that certainly tilted the odds.

again, i think that to my own values and again i have no horse in that race but i think, the recall is when you recall somebody because you don't like what they've been doing even though what you've been doing is perfectly legal. he had an approach beinger he was elected with that approach. and that's what he did. >> as with, i think with the gray davis deficit, i think there is a larger context there. which was the perception was the crime is exploding in san francisco. and again, the sense was that the d.a. was not attentive to them, and underlining. as you talked to people in the aftermath, the end goal is

right result was, what happened. you're not wrong, you didn't commit a crime. but in the context the perception of crime in san francisco, it makes sense. >> i have one. senator marshal black recalled in 1913 for mal feasence in office for funds. >> that works. >> also, you have one. >> great with it. l.a. is in political free hall and our city hall is in complete mess. others will resigned from city council and others will not. it's the amendment in that

tampering with the citizen redistricting, but there is no other tool. so you're effort of los angeles is dealing with that. i'm not sure of my opinion just yet. but they'll give a number of tools and they're all inperfect. but looking at this reform as we're talking about today is needed. >> okay, so if you all david, kind of alluded to the scenario. but if you have control to change the recall election laws in california to improve the purpose and the outcome, how would you fix it? >> i will start. i mean, i have some agency here. again, i have a constitution amendment as constitution which i'll reintroduce. we didn't get to it last year because there were a lot of other things in the ballot that were thought to be.

but my amendment is narrow and what ifng is attainable notwithstanding other things that we may do. but if you get too ambitious, it may get challenging. >> i would, two things that come to mind. one we already discussed and the other one gets kind of dicey. but the first one is to get rid of the second vote. it's a no-brainer. the way it works right now, you know this, it take place a place of the governor can get far fewer votes than the governor to have to stay in power. that's cacamami and it sets up this haounl, in the davis campaign, like 135 people, cast and character too. and somebody could have won

that race with 18% if it was not for schwarzenegger. and the other thing, and this is a dicey one. would i come up with a list of things as reasons for the recall. i know, i'm stepping on toes here, that's okay. you know breaking the law, obviously would be first and for most. now after that, it gets dicey. what kind of ethical lapse? john but i would want to have, just because i don't like the person, to me is not good enough reason. it just isn't. you live with that until the next election. but i believe to josh's point in the trustee model, not what we call the delicate model. that's the other one. i want to have a set of reasons so that in my mind