jury room good morning welcome to the rules committee. today monday, december 12, 20 twoochl i'm the chair of the committee aaron peskin. remotely joined by vice chair supervisor mandelman and committee measure supervisor connie chan and our clerk is mr. vict our young. thank you for your service this year. this is our last of meeting for em2022. and with that mr. clerk you have an announcement? >> the board of supervisors and committee are convening hybrid meeting allowing in person and

public comment and remote access via 12 phone. public access is essential and will take public xhern first on each item on the agenda those in person will speak first and then we'll take those on the phone line. for those watching 26, 28, 78 or 99 and sfgov.orgs call in number is streaming across the screen it is 415-655-0001. and access code: 2495 351 0253 ##. when connected you heart meeting discussions and muted in listening mode only. when your item come up those in person lineup and those on the phone dial star 3 to be added to the speaker line. remember to turn down your tv

and other listening device. we will take public comment in person first and then to our public comment phone line. you may submit comment e mail them to myself the clerk at victor. young sfgov.org. if you commit it via e mail tell be forwarded and included as part of the file. you may upon 7 written comment it city hall 1 dr. carlton b. goodlett place room 244, san francisco, california 94102. that completes my initial comments. >> thank you, colleagues i can't join you in person remember today i finally got covid and hope to be back soon. mr. clerk could you read the first victim. >> yes. item one motion to approve rejecting the mayor's nomination

for reappointment of anna van degna to the redevelopment oversight board sending january 2026. >> thank you. clothes interesting day to day, i as chair of the committee did last week what i usually do i thee have i backlog on my calendar and through this and item number 2 on the calendar which were on the pending list. mr. clerk could you read item 2. >> yes, item 2 is motion to arule of law the nominate of moses core end to the oversight board ending january 24 of 2026. >> and as you note in as the clerk noted in these matters the terms of these 2 mayoral

appointments don't expire until the end of january of next year. therefore i have been advised upon given the change of the board of supervisors the new board needs to vote on these. i intended to send them at committee reports to get them out of the way but instead we will not be entertaining them as committee reports but will hear them and send them in the due course where they will be heard next year when the 92 board is seated. having said that why don't we hear from mrs. van degna who served on the oversight board. mind you this , is not the redevelopment successor against commission. this is actually a body that has oversight over said commission

that was created after the dissolution of redevelopment agency's state of california back in 2011 or thereabouts. mrs. van degna sorry i'm not there in person but i know you are. >> thank you. and am good morning chair peskin and supervisors. i'm anna van death nat director of the controller's office of public financeful i'm honored to be here as you consider my potential reappointment to the oversight board first former redevelopment agency. in my role as opinion finance director i'm responsible for managing a 5 billion dollars portfolio and over see dent. since appointed in 2020 i endeavoured to serve as a to the

obligations and the taxing entities that are entitleed receive an allocation of property taxes once the obligations are met. i look forward to continuing this work if i'm reappointmented to the oversight board. thank you for your time and consideration. let me know if i can answer any questions. why thank you. and if you could explain a bit about the interplay between the oversight board and the successor agency commission. it is my understanding that they vote first and then you vote to approve or alter or deny some of their actions. do i have that correct? >> that is correct. yes, we act before a specific low when reviewing the recognized obligation payment schedule. that is also reviewed and

submitted to the state of california. and i understand and this has been an issue i have been looking into along with several long standing not just redevelopment agency but other city commitments that have after decades not come to fruition by wave background like --the old mint. which has -- after 2 decades still not been adaptive reused or have a long-term tenant and 706 mission the millennium project on corner of mission and third which also for a similar period of time has been the subject of discussions for a mexican museum where in the

successor agency has promised grant payments to the entity in the amount of 10 million dollars, although. it would appear that -- mexican museum is a long ways if ever from being able to actualize a museum. my understanding is that the 6 round of -- grant dispursements came before the oversight board and questions were asked. i did not prepare you for this may be out of left of fieldism wonder if you could expound on this. >> so obligation that predated me and joining the board however, when requests come to us and this one, there is questions that are asked about the timeliness and the schedule and again because this is an

obligation that is being reservedmenting to make sure the project is making some progress and that the recipientses of the grant be accountable to held on a time framism believe with this one it has been going on for quite a time. >> okay. and just for my etification this is an interesting body. i note that the bart district has bart board member janice lee as a mfbt oversight board the document in our file shoes the superintendent of education is represented by david golden i assume this is not true because he was long ago replaced by former city employee don. do you know if who serves for the board of education?

>> it is neither of the individuals you just mentioned. i have to check with confirm with the staff at ocii. >> and irrelevant stiff to the community colleges, do you know who serves for that? this has nothing to do with your reappointment an opportunity for me to learn. >> certainly. i janice lee is on the boofrmd lydia elias is on the board. moses corvette for reappointment today and one or 2 others that are not coming to the front of my minds now. >> got it. >> is kim still on there. >> no longer still on the board. >> okay we have to get an update to this piece of paper. i see no one on the roster so why don't we go to moses

corvette >> i was checking to see if there is a log in. gi noted in your e mail, mr. young, you were silentace to his attendance in person or virtual. >> i did not receive a response to my invitation. we don't a log on for him at this time. >> is there any public comment on items 1 and/or 2.

>> members who wish to speak and join nothing person have lineup now. for those remote call 415-655-0001, access code: 2495 351 0253 ## and press story 3 to enter the queue. for those in the queue continue to wait until the system indicates you are unmuted then begin your comment there is nobody in the room for public comment at this time and nobody on the line for public comment. >> okay. public comment is closed. and colleagues i would suggest the follow thanksgiving as to item 1 at line 3 we remove the word [inaudible] from page one. and on page 2, line 13, remove

word reject and sends the item as amended to the full board for hearing in january, with recommendation on that motion for item 1 a roll call, please. >> on the motion to amend and recommend supervisor chan. >> aye. >> vice chair mandelman. >> aye. >> chair peskin. >> aye. >> the motion passed without objection. >> and then colleagues i would suggest given that this item 2 can be heard in january and that mr. coret could be reappointmented before his term expires, that we continue item 2 to our first meeting in january. can we have a roll call on that motion?

>> yes. the motion to continue to january. supervisor chan. >> aye. >> vice chair mandelman. >> aye. >> chair peskin. >> aye. >> the motion passes without objection. >> all right. next item. >> yes, item 3 hearing appointment of a member to the police commission. >> thank you, mr. young. colleagues, let me say it is making a number of opening comments. with regard to this item. first of all, it is listed number of e mails and a couple of articles in the newspaper. there is nothing untoward or under handed about considering

an appointment to the police commission before the expiration of the term. as a matter of fact, it is not uncommon such was the case in the first 2 items like with other items today, things were expirations don't happen for several months into the future. i was ruminating on this in the reverse which is that, people got quite exercised a few weeks ago. when the elections commission chose not to reappointment early the encum ban director of elections which was to the board of supervisors and -- i remember when i was president of the board and enjoyed the opportunity to appoint and

reappoint members to planning individuals doing a good job. i reappoint the kristina with the board confirmation i think 5 months before her term expired. not the least of which was that i wanted her and everybody to than she had the confident of her appointing authority the president of the build and board of supervisors. of it has been interesting to me particular low as it relates to the police commission that the last member of appointments that both the mayor has nominated and the board confirmed and that the board has nominated and have been the subject of little controversy, quite limited public comment. and if you look at the history

in 2018, there were a number of interested applicants when there was a vacancy i believe after board of supervisors appointed commissioner julius termin passed away. subsubsequently, when commissioners and others appointee chose not to seek another term after a long and term of service, there were not any applicants. as a matter of fact that seat remained vacant for 9 months. in this case, i personally believe that mrs. elias appointed outputly by the full board 2 times and was reasonable elected by majority of her colleagues to be the chair of that body, is doing an excellent

job and deserves to continue. and deserves to have the support of this board of supervisors. let me say this as a threshold issue to those who think nathere is hanky-panky going on. the new board of supervisors, which would change by one member will be the ultimate a jude indicator of whether mrs. elias gets reappointed to the commission or not. so this board of supervisors certainly can state its intent but will be the next board supervisors that will be seated on january ninth that will ultimately make that decision. i want to say another thing, which is that there is an argument i have seen in the barrage of e mails that we did not opening statement seat up for people to apply to.

that is a profound misunderstanding of how the application process works. as a matter of fact i'm proud that as the chair of the rules committee for the last 2 years that together with the clerk of the board of supervisors and my staff and the knowledge of this committee and our clerk, have made a number of long over due process improve ams. those preesz improve ams included not that it is jermaine here getting rid of unnecessary revows by the full board of supervisors by this committee for actions that the full board supervisors thinked take with action on the adopt or without reference calendar. those are on the calendar tomorrow that was a process. in addition we changed things such that people with apply for

every commission all of the time of if you go to the board of supervisor's website and this has been true since may of this year, under wha what's new, you see every single commission that one can apply for. can you apply on the spot. there are dozens of commission listed this . is like conditionius testing and application that is a process improve am that this chair and this committee together with the clerk made. anybody can apply for anything at any timism want to state that for the record. with that, i would like to remind folks about the appointment history of mrs. elias that date back to when supervisor safai was the chair of rules.

where in the interviewed dozen candidates and recommended one that was mrs. elias. and that recommendation came from a rules committee that was then composed of supervisor safai, supervisor yee and member stefani. that was ultimate low finally approved unanimously by the full board of supervisors. ful who's president at that time was london breed. included cullen and supervisors kim and fewer and she he and tang and yee all of whom are gone. but did include the affirmative votes of supervisors here, myself issue ronen, safai and stefani. mrs. elias was at that time appointed a seat that only had a year remaining on it.

and in 2019, the rules committee, which was then chaired by hillary ronen recommended unanimously and the board of supervisors in 2019 approved again unanimously with a slightly different change in composition. i wanted to sit that out for the record. and then i want to talk about the dynamic around policing. not only in san francisco but in the united states of america at this time. and let me say the obvious which is that we all deserve to be and all want to be safe in the city that we live in. that we work in. and we all want a police department of the highest

standard. and highest integrity. but policing is complicated and the role of an inspect sides's oversight commission in a landscape where nuanced and sensible police reforms are sweeping the country is important. and is something that i have supported historically and and continue on and mrs. elias represents both. a desire to have a safe city for all of us to enjoy. and while employing best practice and appropriate reform in urban policing. >> now i then and there has

become politically rauh in the wake of district attorneyy and so forth. but i think this is actually a pretty straightforward reappointment of somebody who is respected and with that, i look forward to a robust conversation and questions. and would like to welcome

commissioner elias to share her thoughts and experiences and vision with this rules committee. good morning, mrs. elias. >> good morning chair peskin. thank you for having me. good morn supervisor mandelman and chan. i stand before you a proud public servant i dedicated my life and free time to serving my community and the public. i have been a police commissioner since 2015 and i'm proud of that and proud of the accomplishments i have been able to accomplish on the commission. i'm the most senior member of this commission. when i first came to the board of supervisor in 2018 and applied be a police commissioner i promised the board and the community that i would seek truth of power. that's what i have done since my appointment. i like to gone by telling you about myself and i apologize i, too, have a cold my voice may not be the best. i'm the proud daughter of who hard working people. my parents worked tirelessly to ensure that every opportunity were aford ed myself and my 2 brothers. they worked 2 to 3 jobs to make sure we had a better life. i was fortunate to benefit from

their hard work. i'm first child to go to college and become a lawyer in my family. it was pretty big. i have always done things to make sure they are proud. i begin my willing career as a public defend and one under for a decade. and i made the transition to labor and employment law. i joined the labor commissioner's office in 2018. and at the labor commissioner's office i was able to accomplish amazing things. one of them or several of them are cases that i prosecuted and was able to secure over 8 million dollars for workers >> wages stolen from them. wages that were oweed them and never paid. and so as an enforcement attorney for labor commission i have been able to fight for the work they'res did not have a voice and cheated out of hard

working money that they were due. a trail blazing watch as such we are a state agency enforces the labor laws. we ensure that workers are aware of their right and worker's rights are protect exclude ensure well is a level playing field amongst employers and they don't gain an advantage over employers that are hard working and abiding by rules and trying to dot right thing. birch begin with my accomplishments i like to share what i learned. i learned commissioners are responsible for more than study policy and conducting disciplinary hearings for the

department. i learned this therea a huge learning curve especially if you want to do it right. because you are a lawyer you are good with words or a good writer does not mean i are a good policy maker. policy writing is more than words on the paper. policy does not kneel mean anything unless have you [inaudible] for those who implement the policy that you write. policy does not work unless you have collaboration and trust, because again, without it, it does not work. i could have a beautiful policy and amazing words that will tickle your feet but unless it is functional and the people will have to carry it out, are not doing it it means nothing. >> this job requires the 8 to be open and learning new things and

understanding different perspectives. i have learned this job is harder than it looks and requires more work and time than i imagined. i compromise and [inaudible] a different perspective is crucial. you can't do this alone. often time when is i started on the commission i would be in the room with individuals that were like minded. and oftentimes felt i was the outsider because i had a different viewpoint. i believe that when you are in a room with those that have the differences and have opposing points of view you come up with the best strategies and policy. because fican't defeld my position, you will never understand. no matter who has been on the commission with me. and it has been changing overnight will last several

years, despite difference we have managed as a commission to make changes in policing in san francisco. i have worked with the mellow commissioners, members of the san francisco police departmented from the chief all the way down to the patrol officers the d. police accountability. city attorney's office. the da's office the public defender and other agencies and commissions to implement meaningful policies for the members of the police department. this is will not about politics and have no political aspiration. my goal is to do this job well. i want to make san francisco a safer city for everyone. through thoughtful, innovative and meaningfulful reforms and policing. i'm focussed on using evidenced based analysis to provide a

police force that is effective, efficient, inclusive, transparent and accountable to the people of san francisco. i'd like to turn to the accomplishments i have been able to achieve since 2018. and i hear they want to do a documentary about the police department. so -- when i joined the police department we were tasked with implementing 272 recommendations from the doj and at that time had only i think implemented less than a handful. i'm proud to see we are 90% done with the recommendations and a portion of the doj recommendations remaining have to do with technology and system with the department. they are substantive [inaudible] i have been here on the

commission for that. upon one of the proudest accomplishments is my spearheading revision of 3.01. department general order that out lines the process hoe the rules of officers are required to follow is conducted. some of our dgo's are from the 90's. and they don't give officers guidance when it come to dealing with 21st century policing issues that we are faced with. when i first started the commission i was on a working group and a working group made of community members and the department. the working group come up with a final draft of the dgo. and at that time process was the working group would come up with their edits and sent to a whole

bonjour rattic chain within the departmentful allowing people who were not part of the working group or the discussions or the research that was done allowing them to oshg sxien edit to the document before it would come to the commission. when would happen it would go through concurrent, edits were made and the document was then sent to commission for approval. the working group the people participated taking time out of the day and blood, sweat and tierce engaging in the process were never being noteified of the changes and upset the community and the working group members i was confused why that communication was not there and level of respect for the people who took time out of the day to participate in the process.

with the chief and laz as other individuals within the departmentful i'm proud to say we now have a more will thought, fortunate process for how dgo's are created and working groups conductd and how we can solicit feedback from the community in this process. one thing that is important to me as a policy maker soliciting input from individual who is have to implement this policy. with 3 will 01 i allowed air provision after working grouper policy is created by the department is posted on the commission website for 30 days, during that period the community can review the policy as well as police officers.

give revision tot website then distributed to the police commissioners. we as police commissioners view that information prior to the dgo coming up and finalized to the commission and officers are allowed do this unanimously they don't fear retaliation or fear their ideas or suggestions will come back to haunt them this is important because i'm not a police officer. and -- i need to know what it is like when they are out there on the street policing if this policy is in the working. i think providing this avenue it allowed them to do that. and a transparent process for the community approximate public they seat w we to and how the policy is made. before this it was done in the

dark. the the time you saw it had it came to the commission for a vote. and imposed time line. to when it come to the dgo so they are moving and not stalled or stuck in the process. another proud accomplishment is additions and revision to dgo50 the use of force. . first the use of force was a transformtive policy. when it was originally revised urpdz the leadership. now it is used and expanded the

use of force to make sure the data is collected. prior to this revision the time use of force data collected if it resulted in an officer involved shoot being or injury. when an officer pulled out a gun xoint its it a traumatic event. now we will track that. we will track when and what circumstances are officers pulling out guns on will will people there are also, data stet sets we have implements will give us more evidence practice and allow to make adjustments if necessary. one thick i appreciated when i made the revisions with the

chief of the policy the training department and members indicated that there was problems with how it was wordd and how they would implement and roached out and told me the concerns and explained them and we went over it and adjust today the policy so it was workable for the officers. because through that lens we have to write this policy. i love the part of dgo50.3 the investigative detention and 50.7 prohibits biassed pleasing. they are 2 innovative policies have conflicts never introduced before. biassed by proxy. an idea that the chief submitted and we were able to include in this policy and again it is never been an issue that has been in these type of general

orders and now used by other jurisdictions. in this country the other dgo i am working on is the banning of [inaudible] 90.1. that is in the revision process and up for a vote. we worked hoard this. and i thank you the 2 things i'm most proud of is not only does it address racial desparity because well is a problem with the racial disparity in our city. but aloud officers to redirect resources and instead of focusing on violations that haveless failed to produce any tangible drugs or guns they focus on things that matter like

true traffic enforcement that is plaguing or need in the our city like rung red lights and stop signs. things that are important and i think need to be addressed and need to dedicate resources to those issues. in addition to that listed a few i want to go through areas on the commission in order to draw attention and bring awareness to. one of them in upon 2018 was the 96 [inaudible] the statute required butt police department tracked data uses of when i began looking at the dast it was clear that the racial desparity were troubling.

people of color were the victims of uses of force 3 times more likely than those [inaudible] in white individuals. people of color were searched 60% more than any other race. and the yield rate when is they are searched where do we find on them. was 30% meaning -- 3 out of 10 people are searched contraband is found. 7, nothing is found. people have been searched for and nothing has been found. the other topic was daunte king the former train whore raised concerns about antiblackness in the departmentful i asked if this item on the agenda for

march. i made a notion have the issue agendized and get it on the agenda this is an example of my persistence and having difficult [inaudible]. having this issue agendized we were able to open and up learn more and talk about what the issue was and am how the police department was responding i also requested the morale presentation agendaized before the commission. i asked the chief, what are you dog for your officers. they have covid fatigue. after covid and after were officers were complaining of low morale. i challenged the chief to talk to us about what the department was doing to address the issues and services they provided for the officer and what the officers want. and through this agenda item and conversation that i learned what

officersment happened they said we want clear and concise policies. consistency and we like respect they have a hard job. and so through conversations like this, that we were able to find out what it is that officers truly need. i asked for a clearance rate presentation. i think it is important this not only do we agendize things that commissioners are interested in and think it is important what the community is interested n. articles about police not responds to crimes the fact there were several article busy crimes commit in the fronts of the police and nothing was done. we had a presentation this indicated our clearance rate in san francisco is 8%. below several jurisdictions in california. that is a problem. we need to ensure that if crimes are occurring they are investigated and they are

solved. and before any prosecution can happen an arrest needs to be made. we needed to have conversation busy why the rate was low and yet complaints from sideses about police officers not -- responding to their complaints or arresting people for crimes was an issue. >> another topic that i requested was the traffic enforcement issue. we saw articles and the commune complainted about why traffic enforcement was not being doneful had a presentation by the department yet traffic division was not issuing tickets or meeting reverification zero goals and we learned there is a staffing issue. learned that the officers frost traffic division were being

diverted yours in the tenderloin and union square and other yours that need their presence. so we were able to have the conversations and make the community aware of what was going o. and again we got the difficult conversations the items agendaized the communities does not have a clear answer from the department as to what happened. upon one other issue was the twitter issue. thereof the district stations using the police department twitter account for inappropriate comments related to george floyd. we put it on the agenda. shortly after the issue was fixed and i policy was credited ensure that access to the district station twitter account was not accessible and we would not have this issue again. i added a (egg regarding

homicide. mrs. brown come every meeting regarding the death of her son and talked about the pain she is in. and an article that come out regarding the rewards not being paid out. to alleviate the occurrence the brown and those who lost loved once how this works and hahappened. it is through these difficult conversations that agendizing difficult items we are able to have the conversations and input from the community and the department. another area i am a part of is the disciplinary review board. this is a board that reviews the trends in thes department approximate make adjust ams to

some of trends or violations that internal afares and the d. public accountability are seeing. or an agent out to just stick it to officers with any type of discipline violation they comprehend i say that is not true. because in my participation with the review board, we were able to come up with solutions. i was shocked to finds how many officerers not familiar with the disciplinary process. because of that. dpa and the department go to district stations and this is

the conduct we are investigating and in the permit today is an education for the officers how a process works and what the 2 charging agents are looking for when they file charge bunkham investigate officers. that in addition on policy making saddam is the other aspect. i vamped the disciplinary hearings. as the longest standing commissioner and before i handled the most case than any other commissioner. and assignd and cleared my docket we had a backlog and no longer have one.

revamping has been beneficial it creates a stream line system we are aware of procedures happened during the hearings. >> handling the vacs case real received and happy to report we cleared out all the vacs case. additionally i helped create the policy for 1421 state law allowing the police officer and conduct records for. created an online portal and under my leader ship we are updated with all of 1421 requests. we are now moving on to the sb16 pace allowing when the conduct record.

allowing access to the records to the community. i assigned dgo's to every commission. as president i assigned a handful of dgo's languishing for near low 2 years now each is responsible for their dgo and they give weekly updates to the progress to ensure they are moving along and not languishing and creating transparency for the public and members where they are in the process. and we will remain on a more -- fortunate schedule to getting the dgo's finalizes and able to

revisit them on a 3-5 year cycle it is important as policing changes and our you know our society changes we have to keep up with that and know and keep up with the policing will require from our officers. when i join in the 2018 i promiseed consult the city attorney on any potential ethical issues or potential conflicts of interest. i kept that promise. i have active low sought advise of the city attorney on any issues that concern me or presented mow with the appearance of a conflict of interest. not only i sought advice but followed temperature i followed the same rules and abgations our

fellow commissioners did when he served a decade on the commission. he was a partner at a law firm and represented police officers and disciplinary cases that appeared before this commission. ethices and reputation were never questioned. as a kwam, especially a woman of color i'm will held it i different standard it is unfair and should not be happen nothing san francisco. rather than judging me for who i am and what i accomplishod this commission. they cast dispersions on my legacy the focus is never on my work or accomplishments or accomplishments of the commission or my work ethic. and iment to say enough is enough. the sexism needs to stop and have no accomplice in san francisco. i'm a proud latina, filipino prosecutoring and take my job

seriously. i can and i do exercise sounds judgment in my duties as a commissioner and i do it without my husband's involvement. because i'm a woman of color a hard working ram of color i'm an asset to this commission. i bring personal perspective other don't bring to the tain. my participation is important and needed especially when it come to racial and gender disparities that the san francisco police department struggles with. i am speaking truth of power and challenge the status quo which makes some uncomfortable. however i have a proven track record and thoughtful reform working with individuals with integrity, empathand he putting public safety in the principles of 24th century pleasing, first. why do i.

to continue had? other than i'm a gluten for punishment? i want to finish what i started. i want to seat policies i worked on play out. i want to continue to help this commission set the bar and standard when it come to policing. for example, amazing prb program cncr. upon teaches techniques with situations that are stressful and teaches them to focus on the facts known to them in the moment. not the would have could of what is happened. this type of training allows them to be mindsful. our ownllowllow won awards and in the field for this amazing program and the w we have done we are ensure the officers

receive this training. another example was 501 now a national model we have jurisdictions reaching out to chief scott and asking for policy so it can be used in their department. there are so many other examples i can't list all of tha them in 2020 when the campaign launched san francisco had completed the 8 items. this is an example of what leaders and vision easier we are and that i hope we continue to be. finally i want to thank my family. being patient with me. put my energy and focus on this job rather than them at times. also to the individuals who are always there to help me navigate

through this ride i thank you and i'm grateful. and i like to thank the commission staff. thank you for putting up with all of us and thank you for make thanksgiving machine run limp it is not easy viewing with 7 commissioners important and it is demand of all of us. not only do you it but the dedication is admirable and i thank you. thank you for this opportunity. why thank you. upon commissioner elias. i have to say in the 15 years that i have been a member of the board of supervisors -- that was

the best most comprehensive tour of what the police commission does for a-z. thank you for that etification as well as your service. i adopt to also note and i was impressed by this -- because amidst the barrage of e mails that seemed to be the result of a request from stop crime sf, there was an e mail from a gentlemen i know and used to work with who was commander of the police at the san francisco police department. who served with integrity, our department for over 30 years.

steve ford who is new chief of police in antioch. good for antioch. giving his full endorsement of reappointment of commissioner elias i am glad i was able to weed that out from the e mails in addition to support from folks like known and highly respected professor bill hang a former member. dj book and others. with that, i see supervisor mandelman and supervisor chan, i believe that i saw in an e mail the other applicant terence tracie has with drawn. let me confirm. if he has not. was that correct >> yes , i received an e mail noting he is no longer

interested in the position. >> okay. >> so with that. supervisor mandelman. i put my name on the queue for a procedural point whether we want to consider mrs. black we are far enough it makes sense to go afford and now defer to supervisor chan. >> i apologize mrs. black you are getting i suspect your reappointment will be less lengthy than this one and while i'm at it i'm sorry i'm not in the chambers i understand the sf community school is in the chamber i like to shout them out and wish i could be there don't want to infleck you supervisor chan? >> thank you, chair peskin. i agree and i would irrelevant

want to thank commission president elias for service and wellingness to serve it is in the an easy commission to serve on. in san francisco. historically not just now. the political climate make it more difficultism think for the commission and the d. to really move things forward without a being polarized. i think that it is all the more reason why we need commissioners who are bipartisan. so to speak and objective in their service and the ways they serve. and -- so i also see that -- that -- our police commission

president cynthia elias is not the most senior police commissioner who has served with former supervisor and police commission president cullen and president commissioner president elias would be voip of this commission. a police reform supervisor. and apointsee of london breed to the police commission had to step down to run for a state wide office. nought commission president basement only woman of color on the commission one of the only 2 women commissioners among 7 members commission. majority of the commission is men. and yet she was elected as the

president by a commission that has mayor's appointees in the majority. i think that means a lot for all of us in this time and often time public safety becomes more a political messaging than an in the seek of policy solutions for real public safety and safety reform. appreciation of our police departments to make sure we understand the morale. to make sure we deliver the public safety measures that san francisco deserves. i for those that have questions

about you know the appointment and why it is moved forward. those are my reason. i don't see how my vote will change now and later. and it is because there are many qualifying individual this is is in the any way to deny others can actually also qualify because of their existing work but i think this upon given that commission president elias 'history the most senior i have talked about it is not something this anyone can just step in and tick a leadership role of this police commission and would take awhile for gone come in to get to that point and the reason i didn't think she did not qualify to continue to serve in the just our police commissioner but as our police commission president. and anybody has questions about her qualification i urge you to go online and really check out

her résumé. it is for public view. and any moment so we can all learn more about the candidate and this applicant and i think for those eatingtory serve or suggest there are other qualified candidates that, all commissioners have expiring terms. they will all come up for appointments at some timism hope no one should give up if they want to serve and not the time that they are opening. there will be other opening and vacancies down the road and in fact for police commission if you are interested there are 4 commissioners appointed by mayor breed and 3 appointed by the board of supervisors. there are 2 different process. but i believe that you can still submit your names to a mayoral appointee to the mayor's office

and for the board of supervisor ash pointee understanding that dead lines have been difficult to meet and will be alerted to the deadline it has been a rolling application process. i don't think this is a moment just because to move forward with this appointment should deter anyone's be interest to serve on the police commission or get involved. for those interested i suggest to start off by a attending police commission meetings. often time that will be one of the really qualifications that i personal low as a member of the board of supervisor looking are for you may not qualify at this time or have the experience on the commission but if you attend the meetings, and be able to get involved and be active, you can prove your qualification down the road. beyond your work. qualification. so i think there are many ways

to go about it and the process has always been transparent especially involving the board appointee. with that said, i think i want to again thank commission president elias for your service. thank you for your willing to between to serve and no salary come with this commission. >> supervisor, 100 an among we get >> my apologies. 100 dollar stipend. if you think anybody can look at the commissioners and know how much they are earn happenings each year and you can make that conciliation by 1 huh human per month whether it it is truly a labor of love for our city. to serve on a police commission. thank you, thank you chair

peskin. >> thank you. supervisor chan. supervisor mandelman. >> thank you chair peskin. i want to thank commissioner elias for her service and her introduction which was impressive and i think that responded to some of when was raised in the conversation i had with her this weekend. i guess i mean i want to appreciate the chair's desire to clear the dock on his way may be out from his chairship of the committee and leave the next committee with a clean slate. and i don't have a terrific problem with starting this conversation about the reappointment of commissioner elias now i do think this is

quite bit ahead of april 30 deadline but why not. i don't know i will be prepared today to give the vote of full confidence in commissioner elias and the police commission that i think the share is seeking but men get myself there by whenever this board does consider this nomination. i do have concerns about the state of the san francisco police department. right now. and i'd like to take this opportunity with my colleagues and members of public who are you eager to weigh in. since we have this time may be we can start a conversation we may be continuing after the hearing. commissioner elias. the first thing i like to talk to you about this weekends is the department staffing. it is my perception we have a

significantly under staffed department. i'd like to understand your thinking about staffing in the department. >> thank you i think i agree we do have a staffing issue. but when we had presentations before the commission regarding staffing some of the occurrence were alleviated. the reality is we have a labor shortage throughout the country. the department is no different and they are having a difficult time recruiting individuals to come be police officers. in 2019 the department conducted a staffing study of the department. and 2022, in march they presented the commission with results from 20 upon 19. and they also concluded there

were significant staffing deficits between sworn and nonsworn staffers in the department of the there were problems with their study. one, it was out dated. results had it was based on 2019 dastasm they are presently nothing 2022 and we have a 3 year gap of where staffing needs to be of the department are. the staffing report only conduct on sort of lower ranking members in the department. and in terms of the call time. sponse times and taskd and time allocation they are required to do. when they presented some of the recommendations i had for the staffing consulting firm were, one, i wanted know item there was not an analysis of upper management.

the police department does have a large upper management and are top heavyismented to know what is the time allocation for the assistant chief. command staff. deputy chief. i wanted to know what their time is spent on. what areas where are there we can be more efficient and divert resource. we more a situation we need all hands on deck from the very top down to patrol. we need everyone chipping in. for this to happen or make that transition to figure out how to be efficient and utilize the resources we need data on what it is they are doing. where the time management is going and can we pull them and help the rank and file on the street patrolling. we heard from the community the community said we feel safer when police officers are walking

especially in tenderloin when that changed because we had various conversations with the police commission of the tenderloin and what the mreeszing strategies are, we heard from the community that says when you redirect police officers patrolling and see them not only does it make the community feel safer it allows them to engage with the officers that are patrolling their community. they are able to respond to situations that arise borrow an escalate. i think that analysis in terms by the firm nooez needs to be done so we figure out how tormore efficient. being short staff side not new. this happen in the 2016 and 17. at this time there was a mandated level of police staff required for the staff [inaudible] temperature which was then repeal peeled by prop

e. and during this time the department was also considered understaffed. and there was issues were facing the department somewhere different than today but this is in the a new crisis for the department. and back then they were resilient enough to bounce back and i believe we will be again in this situation. but we can't really, i think, have conversations or figure out solutions that are long lasting if we don't have the data and analysis that we need to make those decisions because one of the things this we hear the commission and i'm sure you do, when we get complaints from community members and police officers are not doing their job the answer is, we are short staffed. but we have to we understand that's where we are now. we get it that can't end the conversation am the conversation needs to be all right.

we then and there what are we doing about it. this is the situation we are in in a labor shortage, what are we doing? how do we fix this. how do we divert resources and members to chip in and do the things that the rank and file officers and patrol officers on the beat they can't do. how do we improve our finishes times and make the community feel that they are heard and hawhen they are calling to report crimes priority a or b calls they the response time is accessible. we are finishing to the calls. >> thank you. 2019 report as you point out

came search years into what had been an effort to rebuild police staffing after it had fallen off throughout great recession and the years after. when i joined this board, i think we were keeping track of the perception we were under staffed. we were under the charter mandate. i think that report this was done in 2019 there were significant cannot effort its hire and up pushing through academies. showed not guilty estimation the people prepared the study we were 250ish short at this time. do you think that number was right? do you think that was right in 2019? in terms of actual number.

>> sort of roughly what the gap probably was or du feel like the prop to that was correct? noted all the way. i don't think the report stated how an increase in officers will translate to improve public safety. i don't think they answerd that portion it was more this is how much officers we have. this is what they do daily and he how much time it takes have been. this is how much the call for service and time is for calls of service and this isow they respond. it was an analysis of the need for police officers terms of numbers and analyze whatting they do in the time management portion i don't think it addressed the other portion, if we start increasing staffing and increasing the number of officers how that will make it

safe for our community? so i think there is this part of the conversation or analysis that needs to be included. in addition i think even i'm sorry. i think you know the report was like 100 something plus pages. when they did thence they had 1800 sworn members in the department and still more than 20 i think -- 20 per 10 thbld residents or somethingeen with the low rate in the deficiency in staffing we were higher than most other california police agencies in 2019. so even though we had the shortage we were better in terms of the number ratio than other cities. and counties. >> right. right. >> the number the department is

now putting out is the shortage is something like 500 officers. with the notion this we are losing 100 a year possibly more. and so they start from that 250 or whatever and look at when we have lost in the failure to add-on. you know to my mind it sounds dire if you think that 2019 analysis was may be right or in the neighborhood of right and then see the force since then and the challenges the department is having and recruiting now folks to join. buoy don't know what the i have a motion notion of the consequences of understaffed police department simple oakland has an under staffd and long had a pretty seriously under staffed

department. and i think some of what happened there has been related to some of the staffing challenges. but -- i'm wonder figure you have thought the consequences of under staffed department and how this relates to implementation of the reforms you are proud of. we are in a labor shortage. more important low i think what is important to remember is the efforts the board of prierzs has made to transfer some of the noni have 11 calls and the responsibilities the department is played with to other agencies. . a leaveiates some of the better police department cannot handle everything they are not mental health experts. they are not there or equipped like a mental health expert is

to handle people in crisis. especially mental health crisis. work the board of supervisors has done allowing some of the responsibilities the department is tasked with to be shared with others is a great solution and it is a step in the right direction. >> do you think there is anything we can do other than will trying to be smarter about how we use officers and use other city employees to do things and i want to ask about [inaudible]. but how do you think we change the staffing problem? i think that we really need to active low recruit. i want to let you know we are proud to or i'm proud to say that we recently signed a contract with 30 by 30 an

initiative to increase e mails and policing. san francisco like several other cities have signod to this and the goal to get 30% of the workforce of the police department to be women by 2023. and then we learned that not only having women on the force and increasing the diversity butt benefits of having female officers based on the research indicates decreases in uses of force. fewer rests and searches. their named less in complaints and the community has indicated safer and the ability to relate to the police officers was large. so this initiative gives the department guidance on how to get there and requires the department top report on the progress it has done to fulfill this initiative. the status of women of the san francisco police department indicated that there is a gender biasd and stereotypes within the

police department. they propose solutions on how to alleviate that practical. addressing issues like the female presence within the d. active low recrewing. utilizing new strategies to really get people want to to be police officers is critical i think that is what the department is doing and need to continue with those strategies long with asking for the burden to help the department when it needs help in terms of you know may be diverting some of the tasks and responsibilities they have to other agencies. >> what the department is dog now is not working. because we are graduating classes with 13.

have more officers in the field. is that something that the commission locked at? >> we have. we have and i think the department actually has presented on their flon do that. i think it was in the budget cycle they indicated that there were -- i want to say 20. i can't remember the number. there were a group of positions they shown they would transification from a stworn nonsworn and civilianize the

positions which is grit it alleviates the burden and focus those sworn officeros what needed to be done in terms of the patrol and the policing aspect of the job. that's my staffing questioning. the next set of questions i have relate to how you think about beens your different roles you play as a commissioner on the police commissioner. being a fire commissioner is i think a simpler task in that the fire commissioners are -- there are issues this come up and tough policy challenges and sometimes moments when fire commissioners find themselves at odds with their authority and looking to things that uncomfortable for the city to talk about in general, the fire

commissioners are boosters for the fire department. and in the same wait supervisors are boosters for things happen nothing our districts we want to highlight. and try to get attention for the good things going on. i think that is part of your role as a police commissioner but curious to hear your thoughts. you also plainly have another role that makes that complicate which had is, too, one, dispensing discipline or ajude indicating claims that when an officer has conducted him or herself in a way we don't want them conduct themselves and setting policies that may be difficult conversations in the department and asking officers to do their jobs different low. i'm curious how you think about beens the functions. where partly, well, i don't

know. what do you think. ir thank you is a huge learning curve it is difficult. and you know i think that it is important to highlight our successes. but it is also important to have the difficult conversations because if we are not willing to tackle what we need to i don't think we are going anywhere. and i feel like based on my experience on this commission that when we tackle the difficult conversations we get so much further in where we want to go. and it creates a space for us to learn from each other and to learn how to get better. one of the things i forgot to mention in my list of itemsip agendize was operation genesis. which is a very successful program went police department and the lead by officer jj and others. when they do is they take kids

from certain community and they go on a yearly trip to africa. not only they do that you know they -- there are donations and fundsers who provide money for this program so this they can provide scholarships to kids to go to college. we had the and not only provide scholarships but supplies. there was one student who this was a first time ever being in a family going to college and needed sheets and book scomplois through this program they were allowed provide that student with the essentials they needed as a first year college student. those other successes this we also celebrate on the police commission unfortunately they are not head lines you don't hear about them much. you know there are things like

that or highlighted the fact our art program received national recognition and one. our ownllow lute nevin received an award. our field training field operation, you know unit that is setting the way for how we respond to critical incidents and they review a lot of the use of force and a lot of the situations that are police officers face and figure out how we do better what can we do to make it better and improve where we are. and they also, too, are recognized and being used as models for other jurisdictions. there is all of this great work i do we agendize and make sure we want to get it out buff unfortunately those are not the headlines you see. >> do you think the rank and file officers believe the commission understands the job they do?

the majority don't. i go to the district station when is i joined the commission i went out there and you know i was tell me what is going on and happening. there are -- in fact that is the first time i met doctor ford a captain at bayview i went well and asked the members to tell me what how to make it better and what we can do. and he said this is a very structured organization. it is very hierarchyial and a chain of command. and as a civilian i did not understand this i was like what is the problem, they take it seriously we have to be respectful of that. on the other side >> to understand. do you feel you were told you should not go to a roll call? no , i was rep minded of how the structure of the organization and was if there are complaints

or suggestions than i have a protocol they go through their chain of command and policy. it is about procedures and following the rules. and that is when it was about. i know this is their agency and their work i had to be respectful of this. and i was not aware and i learned that was another lesson i learned. i also you know was able to have conversations with certain members of department to be, had i write poles most of the people in the room are command staff. i appreciate their input and feedback i want to >> what is happening by the bhorn is patrolling in the tenderloin or mission or bayview. they have to read all the policies and implement them. is there is a problem they tell mow it is not clear i'm not understand thering are too many. then as a policy make are it is my job to keep that in minds as i write policy. it has changed my lens and

perspective how i write policy nouchl lawyers do include things we want to use the big words and use be revoked that does not help them they want it clear, concise and know what to do and want consistency. it is with those principles i now use when i write the policies. and it is important for me i can't speak to others. for me i need to know what they are dealing with daily. because as a role i'm in a position i get instructions from my boss how to do things and i go to court, yea, that's not how it works. your policy does not work when i'm in court. you know i don't the officers to be in this situation. i want them to tell me, tell mow what is working and what is not and why this is a problem. i think we need it engage the

rank and file more as we make policy that is why i made that card for 301. we are not able to go to every district station or numbers are not able to voice heard they are able to and able to sends an e mail or online submission about when they think about policy or occurrence they have. it opened up a direct line of communication in a sense to the police commission. i think it it is important that the other commissioners and myself are aware of that. how many of the stations have you visited? half a dozen and i -- 39 tipy and heave told me when you are on the street go to an officer and offer to buy him a coffee.

that's what i do or i go and up talk to them. sometimes they don't know who i am. which is fine i question and ask them what they think and what hay like about their job and when they doenth and that inneraction. which was your last coferee with a cop. >> my gosh. november. december. >> i want to say october. >> great. >> october. why do you go to graduations? i did at the beginning i have not been to the last few we had new commissioners and so we want to be able to give them an opportunity to be there and experience it. it is very cool i went when i started i would. >> that's not a brown academy problem. that is in the a brown act problem for more of you to go.

>> when was the left time you did a ride along? >> gosh it has been more then and there a year. probably -- honestly before covid. >> okay. >> you brought up the i know there are members of public i will try abriefiate this. and i look forward to continue thanksgiving confirmation hearing on clearance rates there is a perception in the public there has been a pretty significant decline and in a bunch of areas in the last decade. we seen and explored around traffic enforcement which you have also locked at. i want to ask you about dug enforce and want enforcement of

street level drug saleless. i have been told. she does in the believe in this. what do you think about using officers to break up street level drug sales and arresting drug dealers. i think that we have to be strategic about it. i think this we have had a long history we tryd that approach and it is not working. i think the low level dealers that are there and are being arrested soon as they are arrested you think they are either, there is a dozen more that be back on. doing the same thing. so i think that we need new strategies or solutions to how we deal with it. are there. >> that's what the data is

showing. when we have our weekly our amongly tenderloin discussion that is what the police department is telling us. they are telling us they are arresting these individuals and committing the offenses but have to take their word for them. >> my last of question i have many more. the last one is most important thing this commission may be tasked with doing is hiring a chiefism hope scott statistic around you never know. what you would look for in a chief? someone who wants to invest in their department. machine who wants to make sure that -- the morale issue is

tackled head of someone not a42id have a conversation and someone who is willing to acknowledge that sometimes people inneractions with police are not always positive and sometimes they are. but i think we need someone who will acknowledge that and not pretend it did not exist. someone who will be critical of not only their own staff but the way they envision where the department goes. so00 eye want someone who really i think embodies the centiment of the 21st century policing and irrelevant does want to make a change and someone who really gets the fact that -- saying that you believe in police reform does not mean you are against public safety. those 2 -- concepts are not mutualy exclusive.

they work in combination because when our public feels safe and there is trust and accountability i think that part of the reform effort. we see results. we see improvement. so i think those other things that would be important it me. >> okay. >> i look forward to continue thanksgiving conversation with you. thank you and i will get out of the way >> thank you. thank you. you think after 3 years i would figure this out it hen awhile since i had to isolate. a couple of things before we go to public comment. one is this -- commissioner elias has a hard stop at 12:30.

dependsoth length of public comment, may or may not be around when we ultmitt low vote this matter. before i only up to comment, let me state my intention which is to do the following. to duplicate the motion, amend one motion to set forth as has been done in the past. that is the board of supervisor's intent to reappointment commissioner elias. and then have the second motion be sent at this time board once the new board is seated. and that would ratify the first motion. which is also done. by the board of supervisors in the past.

when we are on the cusp of a changing board. eighty-one motion voted on tomorrow the intent motion the other voted on after the new board is seatd and that would be the ratification of said intent. i have circulated those 2 draft motions to, clothes, they state what i just said and with this are there any members of the public withhold like to comment on item 3 that are in the board chambers? >> yes. members of the public who wish to speak and join nothing person lineup to speak at this time. for those lynching remote call 415-655-0001, access code: 2495 351 0253 ## and press star 3 to enter the queue.

supervisor chan. never minds i'm glad to hear the chair announced tell be put off until we get a new board. i urge you to hold off until mid april since it does in the expire that mont. automatic appointed of politically appointed commissioner system disrespectful. there are people what are satisfied with the performance and the complete concerned about crime it it is a disrespectful to potential applicants. waiting allows to vet all candidate in light of the al gagsz. conflict of interest violations against commissioner. now is not the time to discuss

but deserve a serious public hearing. i want to say she mentioned that this is in the a new crisis of under staffing. she is in the doing combchlg time for her to own up to that and if we are top heavy that is hers. >> time e lapsed. supervisor peskin interrupted me. if we are serious about engaging the public we need an evaluation of all applicants including an evaluation of her performance. she said i hope we can commissioner talked about the learning curve. she does not consider. >> that is more. >> thank you. allen. supervisor mandelman, thank you for your questions today for the

candidate. and for your measured comments, your interest in public safety and your genuine respect for this process. district 8 appreciate its very much. >> but in contrast to that we have something from district one. and i want toefsh go back and look at president tape. so you don't think i'm mischaracterizing statement what is you heard from supervisor chan was i made up my minds and anybody who wants to apply for a commission position can wait for the opening. her moindz is made up. and i want to send a message out to san francisco, get your applications in we need a change

on the commission. disregard what what you heard from supervisor chan. thank you very much, thank you, supervisor mandelman. next speaker. jury room hello. i'm rome jones on the working groups with commissioner elias and wanted to say that granted i do also have concerns about the department or even the commission and or some appointments to that commission and other ones. it would take me longer to talk about them. saying all of that to say, with those things, i'm familiar with commissioner eloise. i presented both the commission and in the working group and think every time there was a

disconnect with community and like the police department or even the proceedings we were in she took time to make sure i understood what was going on and make sure she check in the with me how i felt even before or after the meeting. assuring me she heard me at the end of meetings able to recite things i mentiond and like asking how we can get more community input in the roomseen though there is a long list of barriers which would take longer. so. supportive of her. also like -- feel as if i see the disconnect and doing this sxaerl how like -- it could appear like favoritism? i would say that from my opinion she is probably not the problem.

i life to talk about the problems i don't have time. have a good day. good on see you, supervisors. next speaker, please. good morning i'm richard i live in district 3. i would like to ask, what is the her snef in the last election we elected several candidates representing the board of the people. and the direction that the city is going. it is called a mormodern way. why not let a moderate candidate who beat an existing board member vote on the issue. why do we have to do it now? thank you.

thank you. that completes the in person speakers. i believe we can move on to remote callers at this time. >> thank you, mr. young. next speaker, please. >> thank you chair and committee members. policy of district 5. on behalf of the organization we proudly offer support for the appointment cindy e lois for police commission for 4 year term. we can speak to her expertise beginning with her career in public service. as the attorneys for the law enforcement of diversion program she worked with the police department and da and both glide and the institutes to develop a successful program aimed reducing recidivism will made a dmfrns participates and

commitment to draegsz poverty and marginalization left an impression with glide. she represented the occurrence of the community and champ yong police accountability and change. this includes reforms to the city's police policies on use of force and investigation and biassed policing and release of record and public transparency. she is being chaired. police traffic enforce am policy. and involved unpresidented out roach for the dgo this ensured people impacted by racially biassed policing. her skills and accomplishments as an attorney and we have respect for her and faith as an advocate for the people of san francisco. we are confident her inclusion will help the commission fulfill oshgations the community and provide oversight of the

department. thank you. thank you. next speaker, please. hi. i oppose this early appointment of commissioner elias. i think it is way too soon. we have to [inaudible] it feels political and i'm not for it. i appreciate supervisor mandelman's comments. he is my supervisor district 8. he makes a lot of sense and i feel like on the part of supervisor peskin and on the part of supervisor chan this is very it is a political maneuver. so i don't appreciate that. i think we need to hold off on the congregation. i wish he never had it. thank you for your time. >> thank you. next speaker, please.

good morning. supervisors. i'm sheba. i'm a public policy manager of home rise a supportive housing provide and member of the treatment on demand coalition i'm urging the board to reappoint cindy elias as police commissioner and a center for people of color in san francisco. believes of racial justice and equity the centers of sfpd policing practice. . presence on the commission will be a fulfilling communal obligations and oversight and reform for the department of the please, reappoint elias as

police commissioner. thank you very much. >> thank you very much. next speaker, please. good morning. [inaudible] d5. i'm dins williams subchair of fillmore collaborative [inaudible]. my grass-roots organization and d5 black, latino and [inaudible] supervisor chan. forward thinking and aaron peskin. as chair of san francisco voters and residents expect bold leadership and intel gent choice in appointise our statistic show the mayor o posed supervisor

appointees at a large percentage which is alarm happening. expects her ash pointes to be included. mayor breed being [inaudible] her apinnee mr. larry yee should have no bearing in the supervisor decision i believe keeping cindy elias is imperative this . allows supervisors one last task, to [inaudible] residents pressing, highlighted. homeless is one. crime, and a lack of black real estate developing companies in home and wills affordable housing builds. lack of the latter is in bobble industries by supervisors who -- have -- i'm lot on words.

agendas in keeping the inclusion of blacks out needs to be addressed. 18 black movement needs to be addressed. thank you. >> thank you. next speaker, please. hello senior gentleman coordinator for council on [inaudible] i wanted poke in support of cindy elias i hope she will have her term extended and that you know able to serve another and has worked on passing policies.

her work to ends stops and shown light on the rates of force with people of color.

thank you for your time. >> thank you, next speaker, please. >> supervisors, right off the bat let me state clearly i tried to attend most of the police commission meetings. and i support the cindy elias 1 million %. some of you supervisors think you can make general statements and they will fall for the trespass. fire department is a cabal. the other supervisor who is try to convince we must 39 her. she limit her comments to 15 seconds. having said that. my advice to cindy e elias is stay on course.

you need to represent us all and you have to the support of those who can deserve. the ability to deserve is important. all questions about hoirg the police force. that should be on the mayor. and -- her teams to appoint the president and the commissioners chose you as the president and over the vice president was the right thing you are live nothing difficult time and it it is a shame that will the board of supervisors, thank you very much. >> thank you. next speaker, please. >> yes. i'm >> landa williams the president of the officer

suggested we support the reappointment of cindy elias she has been an ethical lead and support of of police reform and transparency. she has made sure the police commission discipline is sensible and equal special under leadership we have experienced a reduction in the use of force. i think that she has shown her commitment and has been very impartial and fir and making sour that the community is heard and the voices of the minorities and women are draesdz on the meeting. i think she is the voice of the people and we need to stop questioning her about issues she has no control overnight issue. hiring and shortages of police personnel. supervisor mandelman if you want to discuss had i'm an expert afternoon 32 years of policing

i'm happy to speak to you what needs to happen in the police department and i think the mayor needs to put aside her difference. sure she has the majority of the appointments however the people's voice needs to be heard and we are saying keep cindy in her position she is our chosen person. thank you. thank you. officer. next speaker, please. yes. thank you for the toont to speak. i don't know whether i would vote for cindy e lois or not i have reasonable started watching the police committee meetings the last two month and not happy. i think that rush to judgment is not something this is just repugnant to me. not want to listen to the

appointees during the obama administration to the supreme court. why now? because the several items that caught my attention in the left 3 weeks at the police commission meeting october fifth had a 30 presentation. [inaudible] spoke about and the end of this i felt the presentation was well done and did support it. and she asked -- chief scott what he thought as well and approved and certainly for funding to join me. join the organization. to mow that is a lack of communication with the police commission and the police departmentful how in the world can you have a 30 million presentation on manage this is already approved. the communication was -- don't exist. second thing is that the last

meeting was on the 901 agenda which there was a conversation between mr. carter and [inaudible] and one of the provisions than i want to instructor:out this is the no turn signal. citing people. and the next day. and i don't know. the next day motorcyclist was killed on caesar chavez. i don't why we. >> time e lapsed. >> thank you. . next speaker, please. >> good morning or afternoon. thank you for town to poke i'm latoya i'm a resident of san francisco. and i want top say thank you for the opportunity. first, support of reash pointing

commissioner elias i have to address how supervisor chan was addressed disrespectfully and nobody on the board did anything that is evidence of disgusting given the political situation at play. the questions and comments that were asked are performance review questions not reflective of ability to do job but remove someone who prioritized people and balancing policies and pol teches this effort is a classist 18 black and racist attack to grb at political power at the expense of the people. police department does not rest one commissioner and no other members responsible for the state pd are included in the conversation which is a poorly built attempt.

>> good morning chair and members. i have been a residence den of san francisco my life and [inaudible] i'm calling to offer support for cindy elias the police commission. police record speaks for itself and confidence that her inclusion as a woman of color will help the commission to fulfill its obligation to the community. thank you. >>

>> i'm peter i'm calling to offer support for cindy e liegz. an excellent choice for public safety brought san francisco ford and important for police officers as well as the public. institutional memory and knowledge is also crucial. anything can sound great in a vacuum she has been in the position to have known what conversations had with the department and other important voices studies the data and knows what has been try d and work and has not. i think also -- important to note that we are luck to have her caliber and experience willing to take on the onerous task of serving on the commission on top of heifer day job. oshg lot of people are people who are motivated by a desire to

mro mote views that have little connections to the board or lay their public profile to win a higher office sxf she is neither. she is somebody wo can do the daily job and prepares for meetings and reads long documents shows up to meeting and works with people and cares about the work product. i hope that the board of supervisors approves her as soon as possible. >> thank you. >> next speaker, please. >> good morning supervisors. i'm cheryl thornton a redent of d 10 i'm in support of the reappointment of cindy elias. cindy is an advocate for the community of colors. focused on bias and police and use of force. she is an excellent choice for

this commission. and lastly i want top say that the gerrymandering that went on in redistricting is this is somebody like cindy continue as a commissioner to represent people of color who in this city don't currently have a voice. thank you. >> next speaker, please. i'm alice a native to san francisco i'm calling to oppose this attempt for early reappointment cindy elias at the police commission. we need a fair process allow others the tune to apply for

appointment. there is no need to rush this process. you cannot assume there are no better candidates who may wish to apply. everyone needs to be allowed an opportunity to have a voice at this table. we got a new supervisor coming in in the new year and the people he represents deserve to be heard. allow the people the opportunity to have their voices heard;llow for a fair and legal nomination process. there are real concerns about the direction of the police department. all of our community want to be included in addressing the occurrence. we also need time to look at the public of interest issue. we expect honesty and fairness from all of our elected officials and represent all of san francisco. thank you. >> i grew inspect bayview i'm

offering support for reappointment of cindy eloise to the police commission i was at a meeting and i watched commissioner elias sit at a table and have a discussion with you. i worry a woman of court reporter and worry about the city what is left for kids growing up and the commissioner sitting there and having a conversation with the youth made me hope thereof are people who care about the the youth and equity and he care about

accountability and reform and not a lot of us listen to the youth and she was having a discussion approximate listening to the youth that just increased my support. and so i wanted speak on behalf of my support for a reappointment of cindy elias, thank you and thank you for the town to speak wrochl thank you, next speaker, please. >> hello. i'm a former police commissioner and i am calling on behalf of cindy elias. she is the first latina pedestrian police commission which is an achievement in the city and one of 2 women on the commission. and i sat with her and know she is dedicated and knowledgeable. she has the understanding of the

policy and works with the department. represents all of our commune especially the black and brown community. one purpose thing she has is institutional knowledge have you a young commission it is important to appoint somebody with institutional knowledge. if you remove somebody with historical institutional knowledge you leave a blind commission. when they wlarn is going on their term ended. i think she brings a lot to the table. you have to understand all the accomplishment we had. because of the commission's hard work. and i think it would be a disadvantage to take her off at this time. she is fair. a person for this job. we need to preserve her as the president of the commission she

has done great work and the timing is not that important to me. what is more important we have qualified, dedicated people who know the policy and know the department. i also agree that we need look at the department itself in terms of recruitment as supervisor mandelman has said,een if you get 50 in a class you graduated 25 and lose half and you lose half in the probationary period that is a problem in the department itself. why time is up. thank you. good to hear from you. next speaker, please. hello. i'm edwin and community builder with the collaborative and here to encourage the reelection of

cindy the president of the police commission. she will be a commissioner deeply about racial justice. policy accountability and fairness which is when we need. she highlighted a need to address officer morality. does in the necessary low fall in the police commission but does indicate she attended police officer need and morale. add vo case for use are force. and advocacy rights and resources for undocumented communes is a clear testament she is mindsful of communities. the commitment racial poverty and social context demonstrate she is look to bridge community and the police increase the community's public safety and police morale in san francisco. thank you. >> thank you. next speaker, please.

>> good afternoon supervisors peskin, machine man and chan i'm angela chan i serve on the police commission as a board appointee from 2010 to 14. i support cindy elias. you seen from today's conversation with her show is a thoughtful, mart and collaborative leader. reelected as president of the police commission she is skilled building consensus. as a former commissioner i appreciate she makes herself accessible to the community and connected to the community and show she is willing to work. she lead many efforts. posting a listening session. on the department order and ending biassed traffic spots. she arrived early and seated with young people of color and discussion. explaining to them and listen to them and enany knowledging them to get feedback from real

experience. that captured who cindies and explaining the powers and work the commission to those impacted by the policies.

acl urgs of northern california a civil right's organization for police accountability and transparency and footprint law enforcement in san francisco. we urge the board of supervisors to appoint people such as upon current commissioner president cindy elias who are committed to banning [inaudible] or committed to transparency of police misconduct records and committed to holding police accountable and provide over assignment thank you very much.

i'm jennifer chiou calling to offer supports for cindy elias. gave an amazing (egg today and hope we will hear more from her on her police commissioner work. that was our last caller. soing no other speakers public comment is closed. and colleagues i will look at the chat here and if i can figure out how to press that i see nothing in the chat. i think all 3 of us have spoken. and i than mrs. elias has a hard stop in 10 minute and got a full

calendar ahead of us. soil make the motion i said i would make i will duplicate the motion and as to the first motion i will amend it such that it become ace motion of intent it confirm the repiment of cindy e lies term ending april 2027 to the police commission and -- sthendz as a committee report for hearing at the board of supervisors tomorrow. and then i on the second duplicated motion and that would be a motion to confirm the reappointment of cindy elias term ending april 30 of 27 to the police commission and i would make a motion to send that

to the board with recommendation for the first business hear nothing january. january the 10th of 2023. i believe that the supervisor would like to speak >> supervisor mandelman. >> thank you, chair peskin i suspect these 2 motions are consistent with what the concern board and the future board will want to do with commissioner elias. i don't have a problem with it for this committee or the board i myself will vote, no in that i think i have more work to do to understand the role the commissioner plays. and i note that as the members of the commission have shown their independence which is good it accomplice a burden on the members of this board, too much i will vote no on this today. why understood and respected and

noted that supervisor mandelman may indeed change his vote at a future meeting on that combined. supervisor chan would like to speak. >> my apologies i should turn the chat on. supervisor chan y. thank you. i wanted to clarification from both yourself or the city attorney regarding the motion in terms of reading today we are voting the motion to intent to declare intention on reappointment commissioner elias and that is going as a committee report. to the for the full board tomorrow for of the first vote or its final vote at the board in. deputy city attorney they are motions they will each have one vote. and therefores we

duplicated the mile the motion with intent it reappointment with the committee report top full vote. the actual appointment to commissioner elias is the duplicated motion that will be voted out today but not as a committee report. this will come to the board the first meeting. >> that is correct y. which only require one reading at the full board. >> that's correct >> thank you. >> okay. why don't we take ape minute on the motion of intent. as a committee report upon with recommendation a roll call, please. >> yes, on this motion supervisor chan. why aye. >> vice chair mandelman. >> no. >> chair peskin. >> aye. >> the motion passes with

supervisor mandelman dissenting in committee. and then on the motion to confirm which will be set in the normal course of bks business at the board on january 10th with recommendation a roll call. >> on that motion, supervisor chan. >> aye. >> chair mandelman. >> no. >> chair peskin. >> aye. >> the motion passes. with supervisor mandelman dissenting in committee. all right. next item, please. >> next is item 4 motion approving the mayor's nomination of kate black for reappointment to the historic preservation commission ending december 31, 2026. ms. black! on the occasion of your third

term on the historic preservation commission former planning sdreshth and stele planner from the city of piedmont, california across the bay with architectural history background and historic preservation background. this should be easy and unanimous. thank you for your service and your wellingness to continue to serve the floor is yours. >> good upon afternoon will thank you. honor annual members of the board of prierdzs rules committee. chair peskin, vice chair mandelman and supervisor chan. since my appointment in 2018 to solve an expired term it health care a privilege to serve i work with fellow commissioners and stele staff to nominate historic districts and landmarks the lion martin house and cultural

districts the sunset chinese district and comments on historic district statements like north beach contact statement last wednesday and planning code amendments like restrictions on small businesses. a pleasure supporting legacy business who is support upon goods and services at this time city and anticipating in the ground break, racial and social equity policies. tell be my honest torto clan rit with my fellow commissioners to continue to participate and new future works the person city survey under way now which i think will be helpful in ecpel indicting housing product. thank you for your consideration of my reappointment to the historic projection commission. >> thank you, commissioner

black. any, supervisor mandelman. >> i want to thank kate black for her service on the commission. i known commissioner black for 20 years and worked with her in her life as ape planner in piedmont when i provide legal services to the city piedmont. thanks for your service and happy to sput today. >> and worked with buck daventhrall's brother. you hear that deputy city attorney. is there any public comment on this item? >> yes, members who wish to speak and are join nothing person can lineup. for those remote call 415-655-0001, access code: 2495 351 0253 ## and press star 3 to enter the speaker's queue.

there is nobody in the room at this time. there is nobody on the phone the this time. >> okay. public comment is closed. and i will note that colleagues that in so as far as this seat expires on the last day of this month, this board can take action and probably should take action tomorrow. so i will in addition to making 2 slight amendments to suggest we send this as a committee report. and i think the 2 little changes we make are to remove the word rejecting in line 3 on page 1 and the worried rejects online

13 and if we can make those amendments and sends it with recommendation as a committee report that would be the call and call that a motion and mr. clerk, call the roll on that. why yes on the motion to recommend this matter as amended as committee report. supervisor chan. >> aye. >> vice chair mandelman. >> aye. >> chair peskin. >> aye. motion passes without objection. why next item. >> yes next is item 5 motion appointing supervisor ahsha safai term ending to the golden gate bridge highway and transportation board of directors. >> okay. we h had a number of vacancyos that body i'm delighteded see that supervisor safai is willing

to serve. i note that that term does not end until january 31st. we will not be sends thanksgiving as a committee report so the new board with vote on this advised by council. and is there public comment on this item? >> chair peskin there might be an issue with this one i believe that supervisor safai would like to fill out the remaining portion of the existing term that expire in january 31st. and -- get reappointed another term after. i defer to -- deputy city attorney i believe that he would fill a vacancy that is vacant now the board could act and as a committee report i was mistaken. this motion does 2 things.

it for the unexpired term ending january 31st as well as the 2 year term beginning january 31st. if i am to understand your add vice we will duplicate motion and remove the 2 year term and send this for the january 10th meeting; is that correct? that's correct. so that's what i will suggest and why don't we open up for public comment. >> yes. am on the motion i mean member of public when wish to speak and join nothing person should line up now. those remote call 415-655-0001, access code: 2495 351 0253 ## and press star 3 to enter the speaker's queue.

there is no one in the chamber and one person in line to speak on this matter. >> first speaker, please. can you hear me? it it is david pilpel. fiunderstand correct low the file is to be duplicated and one online 10 would be to the 2 year term ending january 31 of 23 and strike the language there and the duplicated file would be for the 2 year term beginning january 31 of 23 ending in 2025. that's how i oobldz that and suggest on line 13 it is not there is no executive director of the bridge district it is the

general manager but probably best directed at this time secretary of the district. on the actual appointment of supervisor safai i support his appointment. this would leave one more vacancy on the bridge board. great to have all 4 of supervisors there which would complete that board and have it be the full compliment of 19 member its had vacancies for in time as chair peskin indicated. and it is only unless the supervisor getings on the thursday committee it is only 12 fridays a year from 9 or 10 on noonish. not the biggest commitment. but it is very important. thank you for listening. >> any other comments on the item y. this completes the list of commenters. >> public comment is closed.

and first i will make an amendment to change executive director to general manager. which happens to be a true statement used to be a member of the golden gate bridge board. and on that motion a roll call. >> yes. on the motion to amend supervisor chan. >> aye. >> vice chair mandelman. >> aye. >> chair peskin. why aye. >> the motion passings without objection. >> okay. now i will duplicate the file and at line 10 strike after 2023 the rest of this paragraph. >> and then that's on the first file. on the second file, i will strike for the unexpired portion

of a 2 year termening january 31, 2023 and -- a. so it it is for -- so reads for a 2 year term beginning january 31 of 23 and sending january 31 of 25. so we now have 2 separate motions both have been amended say general manager rather than executive director. and i will suggest this nay bothing sent with recommendation. the first one as a committee report for the unexpired portion of 2 year term ending january 31 to be heard tomorrow. and the second one for the full 2 year term to be heard boy the board of supervisors on january 10th of 2023. on that multifaceted motion a roll call, please.

>> on those motions supervisor chan. >> aye. >> vice chair mandelman. >> aye. >> chair peskin. >> aye. >> the motion passes without objection. >> next item, please. >> next is item 6 range of motion reappointing hillary ronen for the conclusion of her term as member of the board of sproirzs to the metro transportation commission. >> okay. is there any public comment on this reappointment of our clothe to the mtc? >> member who is wish to speak can lineup to speak. for those remote call 415-655-0001, access code: 2495 351 0253 ## then press star 3 to enter the speaker's queue.

their is then in the room and have 1 caller on the line. >> david pill pelf i support reappointment of supervisor robe tone america tc she'll like low serve another 2 years good to also figure out during that two-year period who were successor should be as the board of supervisors ash pointee on mtc. i don't think i saw anything with regard to this motion. on the previous okay i think the original file need to have a correction on the long title, which has 2025. thank you.

what the hell is he talking b. public comment is closed. >> i don't see wrong with the title. counsellor. the long title indicates the appointment for a term end in 2027 or the conclusion of ronen's term. >> i don't see a problem with the long tiling. >> okay. and in so as far as this term does not spire until february i will make a motion to sends this to the full board not as a committee report so will it appear on january 10th with recommendation on that motion a roll call, please. >> yes. on this motion supervisor chan. >> aye. >> vice chair mandelman. >> aye. >> chair peskin.

>> aye. >> the motion passes without objection. >> next item. >> yes item 7 an ordinance amending the campaign conduct code to update the conflict of interest code form 7 huh human adding deleting and changing title was officials and employees to reflect organizational and staffing changes and refining the disclosure requirements for designated officials and employees. >> all right. well. it turns out, colleagues that meet and conifer on this matter is not yet concluded. having said this. we can still make amendments and we should make some amendments because when the votered voted they did a couple things that will require amendments to this.

as well as other things that need to be fixed. so -- you recall that the voters passed prop b. i will add by a whopping 75% to 25%. which dissolved the yet to establish the suddentation approximate streets and reverted them become to public works this needs to be reflected by changes removing all of the streets and sanitation positions at ages 56 to 58 and back under public works at page 50. and in addition to this, the voters passed proposition c the homelessness [inaudible] commission and that needs to be properly reflected and those changes will require a new

section and they would have to be incorporated under section 3 opinion 1-1037a. and what else do i have here? i have all notes it says go to page 14. what did i say on page 14? i had a question for i did not have time i was going through this last night i'm sick as a dog. but why they removed the director of programs and grants special youth service manager from disclosure category one because the positions don't exist or what happened? they need to be here they have don't need to ends that today but [inaudible] by the time we hear this when we meet and

conifer has been dealt with. on page somebody -- if they are not watching -- somebody can tell them that. victor can you tell them i want an explanation why the 2 positions are moved? and i mentioned the homelessness oversight commission stlald to put the position of commissioner on page 32 at section 3 opinion 1-271. and hold on i got more. i got more. sick as i am i did read this all. wait a minute. oh , i was curious on the successor agency to redevelopment agency, i didn't see the disclosure category for the the executive director am i

missing that? or was it -- anyway that's a question need not be answered today. clean up the removal of consultant explanation of category to condition form with code. as relating to the communal college district and have to remove the definition of category 2 for the department of environment they will no longer have category 2 filers that is the substance of the changes for this item. counsellor did i hit evering. >> yes, >> and then some. >> yes. >> i will make a motion to incorporate all of the mentioned amendments. and await answers from dcyf and

successor agency as to the questions i raised there. and then would like to continue the item as amended to the call of the chair. on this multiis there public comment on this item? >> there is nobody in the chamber for comment and just checking for those listening remote call 415-655-0001, access code: 2495 351 0253 ## and press star 3 to enter the speaker's queue. we have one caller on the line can you hear me. david pilpel my comment about the long tiling was item 5. the original file.

22-1224. on the coi code amendments i made a number of upon comments at the last hearing in november and -- the most important ones were generic titles can be more specific the references to manager 3 and 4 and what not don't really give anyone arounding of which specific positions. are at issue whatever they are fungal title is more useful for the living rooming are departments to think having divisions make sense. the small departments are better references to prop q and approvers is not clear to the public. and -- i appreciate the amendments that were made today and look forward to reviewing those when this is next heard.

thanks for listening. why public comment is closed. and on the motion a roll call please. >> on the motion to amend and continue to the call of the chair supervisor chan. >> aye. >> vice chair mandelman. >> aye. >> chair peskin. >> aye. >> the motion passed without objection. >> happy holidays everybody we are adjourned. presidency pas

>> welcome to union with square the petitioner of harvest of san francisco which is wllts go on it means- >> we're so excited to welcome the ring side for the 50 year in a row and excited about downtown and come ice skating with the holiday season is here in the square.? an opportunity for every one of all ages to come down and enjoy the ring in fact,

if you can't skate that's okay they'll help you around the way. >> it is fun for our whole family come on down and enjoy isn't heart of san

>> # >> >> >> >> you are watching san francisco rising. >> hi, you are watching san francisco rising. reimagining our city. he's with us to talk about how our library's economic recover. mr. lambert, welcome to the show. >> thank you. i'm glad to be

here. >> i know it's been difficult to have books going virtual. have we recovered? >> yes, we are on our way. our staff stepped up big time during the pandemic to respond to the health emergency. since last may, we have been able to steadily increase in person access to library facilities. currently we are at 95% of our precovid hours of operation. in the coming weeks we are going to fully restore all of our hours. we have four branches that we are going to bring back to seven day service. they are currently operating at 5 days a week and we are going to go to every tag line and i know all the foot traffic has not returned to san francisco, but our library is seeing a resurgence coming back.

>> can we talk about programs after covid? >> absolutely, that is part and parcel of our mission. we were doing that work precovid and certainly the library stepped up during the pandemic. we doubled our level of programming for personal finance, small business help, jobs and careers. we have a dedicated small business center here at the library. there is a wide suite of programs that our librarian led. we have a financial planning day coming up in october and we have financial coaches that members of the community can come to the main library and take advantage of their expertise. >> i understand the mission is in the middle of a renovation. how is that going and are there other construction projects in the horizon? >> yes, we have major projects in the pipeline. the historic

mission branch library, carnegie library over 100 years old and we are investing $25 million to restore that facility. we are going to restore the original entrance on 24th street, the staircase from the lower level up to the grand reading room. we are going to push out on the orange alley side of the library and expand space for teens and children, we are going to create a robust community room, a multipurpose space. we are also investing $30 million in the chinatown branch, we are going to upgrade the mechanical systems to the highest level of filtration as we increasingly respond as cooling centers and air respite centers and open access to the roof. it has some unique views of chinatown to create the inspiring space it is.

>> i believe you have programs for families that have free and low cost entries for museum and zoos, is that correct? >> yes. it's a fabulous resource. go to our website. with your library cart, patrons, our residents can go to the public library and get passes to the museums, all of the incredible cultural institutions that we have in san francisco all for free with your library card. >> how are these great free services paid for? how is the library system funded? >> we are so fortunate in san francisco. we are funded for by the library fund and those that taxed themselves just for library services. we also get a dedicated portion of the general

fund. that together allows us to be one of the most well supported libraries in the nation. we have the third most library outlets per square mile of any municipality. all of our branch libraries have professionally trained librarians on-site. service that we are able to provide, the collection, we are a leading library in our country. >> that lead know ask about your biggest annual event in the city. how does the event work and what's happening this year? >> we are excited for this year's one city one book. this is our signature annual literature event. we have everybody in the community reading the same book. this year's title is "this is your

hustle" named after the pulitzer prize nominated and pod taste. this is about the population. one nice thing about this selection is that they are both local. we are going to have several weeks of programming, kicking off next month. it will culminate here in the auditorium november 3rd. so our library patrons will get to meet the authors, hear from them directly, and one other important aspect about this year's selection, we have our own jail and reentry services department. recently the foundation awarded the san francisco public library $2 million to work with the american library association to shine a light on our best practices here in san francisco, and really help our peers in the

industry learn how they can replicate the service model that we are doing here in san francisco. >> that's great. well, thank you so much. i really appreciate you coming on the show, mr. lambert. thank you very much for your time. >> thank you, chris. that's it for this episode, we will be back shortly. you are watching san francisco rising. thanks for watching. >> >> (indiscernible) faces transformed san francisco street and sidewalks. local business communities are more resilient and our neighborhood centers on more vibrant ask lively. sidewalks and parking lanes can be used for outdoor seating, dining, merchandising and other community activities. we're counting on operators of shared

spaces to ensure their sites are accessible for all and safe. hello, san francisco. i love it when i can cross the street in our beauty city and not worry whether car can see me and i want me and my grandma to be safe when we do. we all want to be safe. that's why our city is making sure curb areas near street corners are clear of parked cars and any other structures, so that people driving vehicles, people walking, and people biking can all see each other at the intersection. if cars are parked which are too close to the crosswalk, drivers can't see who is about to cross the street. it's a proven way to prevent traffic crashes. which have way too much crashes and fatalities in our city. these updates to the shared spaces program will help to ensure safety and accessibility for everyone so we

can all enjoy these public spaces. more information is available at sf dot gov slash shared

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>> francisco city and county board of supervisors meeting this afternoon at 2:00 pm., tuesday, december 13, 2022.) >> welcome to the san francisco city and county board of supervisors meeting this afternoon at 2:00 pm., tuesday, december 13, 2022. madam city clerk, call the roll. >> thank you, mr. president. >> supervisor chan present. >> supervisor dorsey present. >> supervisor mandelman present. >> supervisor mar present and supervisor melgar present. >> supervisor peskin present. >> supervisor preston present. >>