the new nazis have started a new war here. this is nazism in its purest form on his part. we will seek to demilitarize and denazify ukraine. has the world really forgotten the mistakes of the 20th century? rise up against this brown plague! the nazi base camp has been destroyed. the policy of putin's regime and that of hitler's third reich. we are always pointing to the neo-nazi undercurrent in kyiv's current government. the russians are acting like the nazis in 1941. the russian military is once again fighting against nazism. hitler's successors. the real fascists. another attempt by the ukrainian nazis. putin's fascism. nazism nazis nazis nazism neo-nazis in this war, the leaders in both moscow and ukraine have their own truths. the only thing they seem to have in common is that those on the other side are fascists and nazis. we can reserve the questions for kyiv, for after the war, but the kremlin is conducting this entire liberation campaign under the slogan of denazification. in six months, these concepts have been reduced to slurs and devalued to the extent that even those who use them do not quite understand what fascism and nazism are. we took it upon ourselves to compare what is happening now with what happened at the time and location where those concepts originated. to this day, every schoolchild knows a fair amount about what happened, from auschwitz to stalingrad. but how did these regimes come about? what did they represent? and is it appropriate to compare the tragedy of today with the millions who perished before? how would you explain in one paragraph, as concisely and simply as possible, what fascism is? fascism is hitler. and i must say: we want peace! fascism is mussolini. fascists want peace! they will always be ready to work towards peace! a fasces is a bundle of rods. the entirety of society is bound together, with one iron fist, the ax placed in the middle. this is the cult of the leader, the cult of power. but we will not accept this endless oppression. we will not tolerate any more deprivation. a fascist is someone who does not understand that in order to build a normal society, one has to be able to conduct a dialogue with people, and be ready for compromises. first, there is no room for free journalism. you are either put in prison or forced to emigrate. then everything that does not coincide with the party line is banned. when every aspect of democracy has been completely abolished. elections are not run properly, and there is no actual multi-party system. the veneer of democracy. even in the reich the veneer remained for a long time. yes - they say, the fuhrer is one thing and the party is another. no, gentlemen! the führer is the party, and the party is the führer! in this ideology the main tenet is nationalism. it is an appeal to a national myth. there were, they say, times when our nation was great. now it is not so great, but we want to return to what is "rightfully" ours. add to this the conquest of land. the nazis called it "living space", or "lebensraum". and we will go to ukraine and force them to be russians. otherwise, who are they if not russians? fascists... what country were you describing just now? well, nazi germany, let’s say... where are we right now? we are in a place called the topography of terror. this was the site of the buildings from inside which the repression of this national socialist system was enacted. it’s the very center of berlin? yes, it’s the center of berlin, from where the leadership directed what we now remember as all the terrible crimes and violence of national socialism. was this all bombed during the war? yes, exactly. everything was destroyed. it’s good that it hasn’t been built up. it's good that this space has remained a void. it was quite a long road. for hitler, it began in 1920, in munich. this part, people don’t necessarily know that much about. he was a corporal, and right away it was like opening pandora’s box. it all started in bavaria, and an interesting journey followed that i think is quite relevant to think about now. the area has been noticeably improved. i haven't been here for a long time! and the obelisk from the first world war has been restored. but, surprisingly, not a word about hitler. it's the very same place, the barracks of the 2nd bavarian infantry regiment, to which corporal hitler returned at the end of the war. this is where it all started. the situation that he returned to in munich was explosive. the german reich had just collapsed. all kinds of political forces were clashing with each other: the independent social democrats, regular social democrats, communists, nationalists, right wing radicals. munchen was a cauldron. hitler was sitting right here in these barracks with his regiment that he’d been assigned to. what was he planning to do? he was at a loss. before the war he had a big dream, a lofty goal: to become an artist... that he failed at? completely. we have very little information from that time. he’s like a blank sheet. but we know that hitler was in his thirties at this point. he was a nobody. and he was very anxious about his future. what was there to do? there was nowhere to work. to be honest, i was thinking, "what can i do? maybe i can pick up a job as a cab driver part-time?” i don’t really see the logic here. analogies are good for journalists to help package certain ideas. but at the professional level, when professional historians start doing this, they immediately turn into publicists and stop being historians. we know the structures and systems that produce these kinds of evil. well, the structures and systems that have been cast aside that used to play a very big role, that are cornered and under public pressure. tonight, a monument to dzerzhinsky was taken down in moscow. according to the latest reports, the statue will be melted down, and replaced with a cross to commemorate innocent lives lost. an army that suffered a defeat as devastating as it did in world war i... that we then call a revanchism movement. in the spring of 1919, local leftists attempted to establish a bavarian soviet republic here. it is important to note that corporal hitler never expressed any point of view towards it. unlike other soldiers who tried to crush this soviet government? exactly. he didn't take sides, he just waited it out here in the barracks. he wanted to see who would come out on top. at the same time, however, hitler was trusted by his fellow soldiers, who elected him as their representative to the soldiers' council. so he was initially drawn to the communists? well, who knows? look at magda goebbels for example, who married goebbels, and what she ended up becoming. it was a time when, it was rising like yeast dough. i don’t like drawing comparisons, but the connection to another head of state seems too obvious to ignore? who decades later would mourn the collapse of a past empire... it was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century. and before that, removed red flags from administrative buildings in leningrad in the early '90s. the state committee on the state of emergency (scse), in august. a crowd of people gathered in mariinsky square in front of the mariinsky palace in st. petersburg. sobchak speaks to the crowd and says that the collapse of the soviet union is imminent and a democratic russia is upon us. standing next to him is an enthusiastic putin, who, so to speak, is helping his mentor lead a revolution. judging by the expression on his face, you couldn’t tell that the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of a century was happening at that moment. this is the search for one's niche and understanding the weaknesses in the system. that's what the weimar syndrome is. how could those first elements of democracy be used? they had a functioning parliamentary system after all. anatoly sobchak also expressed the hope that there would be no obstacle to cooperation now that party officials would have to step down. this was, in general, a very fruitful time. is it what they call here in berlin the "golden twenties"? yes. there was an economic boom, an incredible explosion of science, art, cinema... it was most difficult for older and unsuccessful people. society was taken over by 20 year old bank directors and high school students who took the advice of their slightly older comrades. they wore stylish oscar wilde-style ties, went to parties with girls, and supported their bankrupt fathers. here, in nuremberg, for example, five years before the nazis came to power, in 1928, there was a grandiose celebration of the anniversary of the artist durer. and what if someone asked these citizens then if they could possibly believe that they would live under the totalitarian third reich in just a few years? no one would believe you! democracy has had its best days here... however, the crisis of the early 1930s drove the germans into a very difficult situation. it made them destitute, and drove them to the point of despair. unemployment that lasted years. inflation was so bad that, according to a family anecdote, that by the time you came home from work the salary you’d receive would depreciate by half. it was clear that people were calling for more order, as opposed to some kind of freedom and democracy. well, the parties were there, the representatives were there, they were struggling and arguing. but there was a feeling that parliamentarism was tearing the country apart, that it was lacking unity. deputy vishnekov, deputy dolgopolov... сolleagues, please calm down! and against this background, at the beginning of the 20th century, there was a powerful movement criticizing parliamentarism. the more intense the economic, political or social crisis, the more people yearn for simple answers. the more people want to transfer their agency to some führer who can do everything for them. this isn’t just in germany. i think many of the roots came from the days of prussia and the first world war, a past that had not been really reflected on. and especially for young people, like my grandfather was then, they drove it into their heads that the defeat in the war, the treaty of versailles and the collapse of the empire were all to be greatly ashamed of. the assault on all german life by external and internal forces in november 1918 was bound to eventually become unbearable and thus bring new leadership to power. this bitterness was in the air everywhere: in families, in everyone’s minds. the germans wanted to be free from this shame, and restore some kind of national pride. the motherland was great, a massive russia! what was destroyed wasn't just the unity of the soviet union... it was believed it was the social democrats and liberals that forced the kaiser to resign. they were also blamed for signing the “shameful” peace treaty at versailles. people felt that they stabbed the country in the back. that is, "the soviet union did not collapse on its own, the traitors finished it off"? yes. in 1991, in the belovezh forest, representatives of the then party elites decided on the collapse of the ussr. [singing] ukraine and crimea, belarus and moldova, this is my country! just as a thought experiment...what would happen if we went out into the street in berlin and sang the song: “vienna and alsace, lorraine and königsberg - this is my country”? [singing] i was born in the soviet union! i was made in the ussr! well, if you look at history, the german reich did lose the first world war, and took the blame for it. but the germans had far stronger conditions for resentment and shame. for the russians, i would say, they arose by themselves. if only because there was a different president before… excuse me, a different general secretary. who talked about europe as a shared home. we must bear the burden of responsibility with all peoples for the fate of our common home. the other presidents of russia picked this idea up one after another, and were welcomed all across europe. this is the difference between russia today and germany then. for the russian federation! and now that the ideological split of the world has been overcome, its potential can be fully realized. if we are talking about this weimar syndrome, one further comparison that can be made [between weimar germany] with the 90s [in russia] is a total disregard for danger, and not taking into account the threat that may come from nationalistic right-wing, militaristic circles. you will watch good russian films. ninety percent of the information on our television is only about russia. in good russian. and russian announcers will read the news for you. with good, kind, blue eyes. the fact that they were not treated seriously is an analogous situation. they saw "mein kampf" and just thought he was some kind of lunatic. yes, we are intolerant. and i have set myself a goal: to get all thirty parties out of germany. as the president of our homeland, a wise, strong-willed politician, said, why would we need a world without russia? akhmat! power! i wouldn't say that it sounds like hitler himself would have said it, no. although, on the other hand, it is by no means a huge distance away from his speeches. this is a very important point. there's a famous man named godwin, who invented godwin's law, right? the law that says that any protracted argument is bound to end in accusations the opponent's of being a nazi... yes, and that should be the end of the argument. people have used this a lot. but now, as you know, in march, listening to putin's speech, he himself suddenly said, there is no need to, as they say, make a healthy person sick, and blame our side for everything. in recent years, i've been regularly asked if comparisons should be allowed in this specific case. but i'm against being a final authority, and i don't like being asked over and over again: "can we apply godwin's law here?”. i say, "look, don't close your eyes to the fact that fascism does happen and that sometimes, tyranny does occur!” and with the current russian invasion of ukraine... now i realize that this conversation will never be on russian television - well, nevermind... it seems inconceivable to imagine the necessity of such a conversation about russia and fascism with a german historian, or any german, even a couple of years ago. most likely, such a conversation might have been held here, in may, at the laying of flowers to the red army liberators. but things have changed - but not in germany, and not with the germans. so they are waiting for us here at the institute for contemporary history in munich. it is here that the country's leading specialists have spent years researching hitler’s major work, mein kampf, a precursor to the most nightmarish events in the history of mankind. when hitler finished writing mein kampf, he was about 33. he had only been in politics for a few years. he was serving time in prison in the city of landsberg for his role in the beer hall putsch, and suddenly rediscovered himself as a great thinker during this isolation? how did this happen? yes, how did hitler get to the point? that's not the most convenient question for his official biography. we have no evidence whatsoever that as a young man hitler expressed with far-right ideas anywhere - contrary to what he later wrote in "mein kampf" regarding his political formation. he joined the right-wing radicals only after the complete defeat of the bavarian soviet republic. after the defeat, a very powerful anti-semitic wave rose in bavaria. it was only then that hitler tried to join this wave... he felt the wave and rushed after it? of course. it was impossible not to feel it. he was holed up in these barracks, and then climbed out of them into the light of day. then hitler began to explain to the new authorities: “but i’ve always personally opposed soviet power! look at this private instead - he supported the soviets!” that was his first job after the war. he denounced his comrades-in-arms, identifying those of them who were allegedly sympathetic to the soviet republic for the new authorities. the service was very interesting. but i wouldn't want to go back. because that page in my personal life has been turned. the old job gave me a lot. it was then that his own military superiors first became aware of him. there was a captain called karl mayr who was head of the reichswehr's intelligence and propaganda department in munich. they singled hitler out. as a great informer? what a good informant! useful guy. that’s how hitler got into the propaganda courses. in just a few weeks, he received an express ideological education. there, all of a sudden, he noticed that he was able to be convincing with people. in the documents of hitler's regiment someone wrote: "he’s got the gorge!” meaning that he would go far. on my command, on the count of three! one! two! three! let us be oppressed! let us be killed! but we won’t capitulate! victory will be ours! thank you! good luck! and that probably surprises him himself. character wise, he was more of a reserved person than an extrovert. i had always been a military official right? now i’m a civilian official. i don't think there's anything wrong with that... but what hitler showed very quickly, from the very beginning, was this burning hatred of jews. he was unrelenting in this respect: from that time until the last day of hitler's life, nothing changed. he used pseudoscientific reasons to explain this he wrote that there was an undisputed axiom, that these were the laws of biology. according to these laws, in nature, there is like to like attraction. "the tit to the tit, the chaffinch to the chaffinch, the stork to the stork, and the mice to the mice." this is the beginning of the most famous...or rather, most infamous chapter of mein kampf, in which hitler claims that this is how a german forever remains a german and a jew forever remains a jew. aryans are great not because of their inherent spiritual qualities, but only in their willingness to use these abilities for the benefit of the fatherland. the instinct of self-preservation takes the most noble form in aryans. the aryan subordinates his own self for the good of society and, when the hour comes, he willingly sacrifices himself for the common good. i am lak, i am dagestani, i am chechen, ingush, russian, tatar, jewish, mordvin, ossetian. still, the old ideologies, the interwar ones: both fascism and communism, had a very, very powerful message because they implied, as it were, the creation of a new man. if putin were another person, another autocrat, yes, who has more interest in ideology than he does, perhaps this ideology would take shape faster. the point is that he has no ideas about the future of mankind or how he wants to transform the world. there's this kind of early, post-soviet or late-soviet, 80s and 90s anthropology at play here, that rests on the fact that mankind, generally speaking, is shit. why so serious? he doesn’t believe it. he believes that, generally speaking, people are all corrupt. everything is corrupt. it's only a question of cost. and the whole philosophy of putin, of putinism, rests on the fact that one must either pay someone off, or just ignore him. a document that you’re no doubt more than familiar with yes it’s the “25 points”, their first manifesto. could you look at this nsdap program with fresh eyes and tell me: how possible would such political promises be today, in your opinion? well, if you insist. of course, there are plenty of general points here that are still being used to this day by politicians. here, for example: "generous pension increases." or, say, issues regarding "social assistance." and, in general, social justice, the fight against capitalists. but they're really talking about it from an ultra far-right position. how is that? for example, "let's destroy wage slavery together!" meaning, of course, the jews. it would hardly be possible to sell such ideas in europe today, but we still hear it in different tones and registers from various parties to this day. i had the energy and tenacity to turn our first thousand supporters into 14 million voters in ten years. and i will turn those fourteen million into twenty and thirty million voters. it's interesting that there were elections right up until the end. the nazis got 30 percent and the communists got something like that, too, if not more. but very soon many of those who voted for the communists began to support the nazis. sadly, many of the women who had only got the vote in '29 voted for the nazis. they believed the stories about security, stability - all the nonsense they were told. hello, good afternoon, yes! oh, it's you? yes, it's me, good afternoon. is it really you? yes, it is. was it you before, too? it was me before, yes. oh my goodness, thank you so much. thank you so much for everything. do i understand correctly that in january 1933 there was not yet absolute support for hitler the nsdap, yet they were able to seize power? that’s right. that’s how it always happens, one way or another. in 1932, the election was pretty much a success anyway. for the nsdap? although two million votes were still lost. then, there was this very convenient chain of accidents, and hindenburg ended up in power. over the hill and far from a young man... he wasn’t just old and decrepit. he was treated very aggressively by both the national socialists and those who supported them at the time. we know who their supporters were, including those representing german industry, among others. treated meaning? meaning that power could be handed over and put in the hands of a stronger man. i have signed a decree appointing prime minister vladimir vladimirovich putin as president of russia. he will be the head of state for three months. reich president hindenburg was surrounded by a large clique that played a decisive role, especially franz von papen, one of his closest. they sincerely believed that the mass nsdap movement led by hitler could be used to bring order to parliament. that everything would be formalized within the framework of the constitution, but that there would be an absolute majority in parliament at the expense of the nationalists that would be ready to fulfill the desired goals. "the situation is controlled by abramovich, berezovsky, dyachenko, voloshin, and others. therefore, one should not expect much from putin. every day, all thinking people in the country are losing all illusions about putin," said nemtsov, according to interfax. yes i saw this statement. there's only one thing that really upsets me in this case. that borya nemtsov, it turns out, is unteachable. all these people, of course, fundamentally underestimated hitler. the authorities do not ask for the input of the public. they assume that they know best. if they had read more carefully what he had written here before, if they had taken more seriously what he was saying, this fatal miscalculation could have been foreseen. but even many conservative politicians thought at first that hitler was too much. and looking at him, they felt, at best, squeamishness or awkwardness. that's right. but on the other hand, they hoped that democracy would end end and that they would be able to benefit from the new order that came after. there was also a scandal connected to the support and funds flowing into east prussia. this was an agricultural district in need of support, where the government organized an injection program accompanied with all kinds of scandals. these scandals directly affected hindenburg and his family, as his family owned quite a large estate there. and so it turned out that some of the money worked its way to that estate. after hindenburg handed over power to hitler, this whole estate situation was cleared up and forgotten. so it was partly an internal arrangement: we won't go after you, and you’ll quietly hand over power to us? yes. it was at least one of the aspects of the campaign of pressure and blackmail campaign against him. everything is fine? don’t congratulate us too much, boris nikolayevich! he was definitely pretending a lot. did he really want to be liked? yes. he really wanted to be liked. people got a sense that he would be an obedient figure. from looking at the quotes from people who supported him back then, they would say that, on the one hand, he was his own guy, but that, on the other hand, that he would be obedient - he's nobody, he's a wannabe. close your eyes for a second, relax, and look at me with kind eyes as much as you can. on posters and cartoons, we saw hitler in a military shirt with a shoulder strap and an armband with a swastika on it, his hair falling down onto his forehead. but here, he appeared in a well-tailored blue suit, looking surprisingly respectable and modest. afterwards, it became clear to me that he had a great gift for unconsciously or intuitively adapting to different environments. on january 30th, the die was cast in germany. and now i no longer think that my opponents, who laughed then, are laughing now. the procession, accompanied by motorcyclists. and berlin goes wild... a copy of the constitution is being triumphantly carried, on which vladimir putin is going to... i swear to protect rights and freedom. and there were no more elections. that is, the next election did not take place until after hitler became chancellor in january. that was in march of 1933. but by that point, everything was already being ruled by the propaganda apparatus, with arrests of their undesirables and the prohibition of opposition parties. but even then, the nsdap could not obtain an absolute majority in those elections of march 1933. no matter who was elected speaker, the number one is always vladislav surkov, the first deputy chief of the kremlin administration, who knows where the real decisions are made. they start to act very very quickly. what is this? this is the so-called decree for the protection of people and state in connection with the burning of the reichstag of february 28, 1933. so if you'll excuse me, we'll catch them in the toilets, we’ll kill them there too! freedom of speech and assembly are abolished, as well as the inviolability of the private home. this is the kremlin’s crooked method of top-down control. the reichstag no longer played any role in the formation of the government nor in the adoption of laws. that was it. the vote has confirmed the key idea that putin is the leader of the nation. the state had assumed for itself the right to interfere in every aspect of the life of citizens if it serves the function of protecting the state. we need firm presidential power. correct me, but to this day no one has proven that the nazis were behind the reichstag fire? nevertheless, that arson did them a big favor? yes. nobody was filming with a hidden camera. there was no one physically caught setting it on fire. there is evidence that they were chechens. and the decree in february, after the reichstag fire, was followed in march by a law that gave the government emergency powers. the state duma has adopted a bill abolishing the direct election of governors. you can see here, in the "völkischer beobachter": the reichstag hands over all power to adolf hitler.” together, this essentially all becomes a replacement for the constitution. formally it was still in force, but, in reality, hitler could rule undividedly on the basis of these two documents. are you with us forever? if you want me to be. just a few months passed... a few months... and in july 1933 there is a new “law against the founding of new parties"? yes, exactly. this essentially fixed the one-party system that had already been practically in effect in place permanently. and everyone should know this. those who came to this hall and became deputies together with putin. and those who oppose him. the party is hitler. hitler is germany, and germany is hitler. and if not for putin, today’s russia would not exist. there's famous that footage from berlin's lustgarten park in 1932, where thousands of people protested against the nazis. a few months later, it was like they had disappeared. they couldn't all have been shot at once. where did these people go? yes, back in '32 there were various attempts to stop this runaway train. but the terror that started after hitler came to power made those movements disappear entirely. their leaders went abroad. and the people got scared and went silent. you understand, people wanted to go on living their normal lives. it is a slow, creeping process. it drags on for many, many years. years during which, politically, there is time for everything to change. slowly, parties and slogans change. and then society is ready to accept things that previously would have been unthinkable. you begin to think and act as a monolith. one of the philosophers i admire most is karl popper. he was an austrian jew. he managed to escape the nazis before the war began and became a philosopher in exile. popper came to the conclusion that you do not create governments on the assumption that your politicians are noble people, and not even from the illusion that democracy always leads to better solutions. no, what you do is create institutions of power which must be maintained even if the worst people are elected. the special presidential unit is here in honor of the inauguration of the president of the russian federation! this is the so-called “day of potsdam”, or “national renewal day.” it was a big propaganda show set to coincide with the first sitting of the newly elected reichstag in march 1933. the celebrations took place in the garrison church in potsdam. on that day, hitler was sworn in as chancellor. for german nazis and nationalists, this church played the role of an important state symbol. frederick the great and other prussian rulers were buried there. it turned out to be very symbolic, because in it the same prussian elites were inaugurating a new era that day, the era of adolf hitler. we’re showing this because, on that very same day, the first, temporary concentration camp was opened here in oranienburg. the national socialists committed crimes unprecedented in world history. the holocaust is incomparable. not in the sense of mass extermination of people. mao zedong probably had more deaths to his credit. there might have been more people killed under stalin too. but it was the fact that hitler had it all functioning as an industrial production line, planned out from the entry to the assembly line to the finished "product" that made it an unfathomable evil. how the concentration camps ran like train timetables, how the victims had to pay to be transported there, how every jew worked to the very last bone before they were killed, how human remains, gold crowns, everything was turned into raw materials - this is incomparable. the barracks are like ours! everything is very recognizable. especially this one. nothing's changed here. well, only a new paint job, of course. and nothing has changed here either. only the bunks are metal and not wooden, with two floors, not three. the second floor is called "living on a palm tree". it was a local sa unit, from right here in the city of oranienburg, that opened the first, temporary camp in the city center, located in a former brewery building. at first it wasn't jews who were put behind bars, but the political opponents of the nazis. members of the communist party might have even known these sa storm troopers personally before hitler took power. corruption occurs on such a scale in russia that it makes up 10-12% of russia’s gdp i’m returning your serve. i’m interested in how this happened. because this is right in the city center? exactly, yes. this is in the city center where people go about their everyday lives. and where there was once a brewery, they set up a prison. the city bends and forms itself around it. usually. all the locals want to work there. well, everybody used to work at the brewery, then it closed down. now everybody wants to work in the prison? the city administration fervently supported the opening of the camp, and the local businessmen only benefited. after all, someone had to supply the prisoners with basic necessities. the city authorities helped the sa units equip this first camp with furniture. furthermore, the former brewery had to be rebuilt into a prison to begin with. though the labor was done by the prisoners themselves, it still needed funding. so the city provided loans that were paid back through the work of the prisoners themselves. they were sent to work on forced labor projects: they built roads in the city, drained swamps... there is a traditional sewing operation here. you can see how the famous "dvoichka" lemonade is bottled. in the first and third colonies in yakutia, inmates have been making trash cans for two years. and yesterday, they all learnt how to build relationships with local authorities and businesses. these are the first prisoners, right? in 1933, the first camp, dachau, was created, then sachsenhausen quickly followed as the second. buchenwald was later, in 1937. and at first it was, how would you call it, "terror-lite"? yes. but it still seemed absolutely terrifying, because there were still traces of democracy left at the time. and those representatives of the "remnants of democracy," they are here, right? yes they are. but they were able to get out after a few months? yes. they weren’t there for long. and i must tell you that when you read about it, and this is absolutely not to justify the totalitarian, monstrous, inhuman terrible, but you can see that hitler was a populist! the support of the population was vital. there was no civil war or mass terror gainst his own population. yes, of course, it is quickly the jews who are targeted and lose their rights, but they are not yet put into camps en masse. but not "their own"? but not their own, not the aryans. at the time, we [in the ussr] were writing about the appalling nazi terror, but at this time, in 1935, there were only 4000 people in all the camps in germany. by 1937, this was still just 12,000. compare this to our numbers at this point. let’s stay out of trouble and not make any comparisons here. early on, the justice system did have access to the camps. that's why the death rate is relatively low. but certainly if it comes to murders, they were often disguised as suicides. the state commission confirmed that magnitsky died because he was not provided with the necessary medical aid in prison. for instance, the death of the anarchist writer erich musam. sa stormtroopers killed him here, right in oranienburg. after musam's teeth were knocked out by blows of a musket; after stamping a swastika on his scalp with a red-hot branding iron; after the torture that forced him to go to the hospital - even then the fascist hyenas from the concentration camp continued their brutal abuse. that is, beatings of convicts, the actual torture… they tied my hands on the bunk. they started mocking me. they intentionally turned on loud music so that nothing could be heard. and they stuck a stick in my anal orifice. these things are absolutely unacceptable and... well, there’s nothing to comment on… what can i do! as with any revolutionary changes anywhere, such historical events are accompanied by unfortunate side effects. yeah, well, i can recognize everything. it is all the same here. only there we have another row behind the fence. except that, everything is the same. by the way, you have done a poor job with a rake on the gravel here. we have rakes every ten minutes. and there's a fence at the back. i mean, i understand how it works. the towers are slightly different, but it is still the same. radio berlin. in these early hours of april 5, we are reporting live from the worst, most notorious neighborhood. a few minutes pass… no, even seconds… and the whole large district is cordoned off. - are there many people besides the special police force officers and the people they are detaining? - they took two people by the arms and dragged them to the bus. - are there still a lot of special police on the street? - yes, there are a lot of officers on the streets here. they are just everywhere here. all these materials sowed the seeds of hatred… but the enforcers are already rushing up the stairs: "attention, police, open up!" and soon, a few minutes after the raid, there are the first political prisoners! ilya yashin, who was detained at chistye prudy today, is live with us by phone. - ilya? - hello, good evening. - tell me, where are you now? what is happening? - the department of internal affairs of severnoye izmailovo, there are 20 people with me, including alexei navalny. most of the officials, however, remained in germany after 1933. what were they doing here? they were trying to survive. they were often persecuted. but even more often they just lived their everyday lives. they were left alone. so it was possible? it was possible. hitler was not going to deal with them, even with the leading politicians from among the social democrats, example, with zevering, that remained in the country. hitler was proudly saying that the state even pays them a pension. how many more years are you going to tolerate chubais in power? and finally, the expected question for a huge number of russians. when will he finally be put behind bars? how long do we have to tolerate him in power? he is not in power. so, as long as you were silent, you could live in peace in the country? yes. most people could. i have a couple of questions related to justice. they are all related to the name of judge konrad morgen who investigated corruption in concentration camps and, in fact, he imprisoned karl koch was there corruption? because in russia corruption is everywhere in the camps... of course! there was a "small camp" here, right behind you. there was a huge barrack at the very end of it. the prisoners called it the loritz factory. hans loritz was the commandant of a concentration camp. and things were constantly being produced for him personally in this barrack. moreover, in austria, the prisoners built him a luxurious villa. himmler arranged show trials against those who went too far with corruption like karl koch, whom you mentioned. you are being filmed by every national tv channel,every mass media outlet. what are you thinking? just a few words? however, in general, corruption continued to be an integral part of the camp system. and i have a second question right away. the judge, konrad morgen, testified at the nuremberg trials. he visited concentration camps. and he was a truthful judge. and he said that he had seen wonderful conditions: beautiful landscapes, libraries, in foreign languages, fat prisoners and even a special brothel. were potemkin villages built here for justice, too? sachsenhausen was exactly the place where the official visits took place very often. among the visitors there were high-ranking guests from the nsdap, the government or from foreign delegations. maria butina and kirill gushinsky went to inspect the prison colonies. for such tours, there was a planned route laid out in advance. during the excursions visitors could gradually examine discipline, the joy of labor and a harsh regime, thanks to which prisoners were successfully re-educated. good day! evening lectures on science and art history are extremely popular here. education through art. poems, prose, classic music. right now there is a meeting of the book lovers club. it cannot be compared with the american conditions [in prison]. in america, conditions are definitely much worse… so you have worked… there is a washbasin for everyone, but there is not enough space. and here you wash your legs separately. comrades-in-arms! the code of laws of the reich holds guard over your life and security in the national socialist state of order, freedom and justice. i guess that for us, for the generation of children of nazi criminals, these are things that are unacceptable. how can crimes be compared with each other? one of my cousins, also goering, once confessed to me: "after all that, i just tried to live a normal life at least. what else was left?" my point is that the crimes of the nazis cannot be outweighed by anything. and maybe we have entered the 21st century – and encountered something - completely different, because… it is no longer fascism, it is something postmodern that is quite difficult to argue with. because it contains too many elements and aspects, shifting around and twisting like in a kaleidoscope. you're not dealing with a coherent ideological system. although we know that it is becoming, in part, more and more well-coordinated and deeply-rooted. we all vividly remember that the land of crimea and sevastopol is abundantly watered with the blood of our grandfathers and great–grandfathers who saved the world from a dreadful enemy - fascism… these references to national bloodshed and land are perceived as something very recognizable. many countries, including the usa, weren’t even on the map of the world yet. but even then, russia was envied. everyone tried to capture, divide and destroy it… i admit it's getting harder for me to argue with you. why? just because we are different! different from who? because we have a lot of everything: earth, sky, air, water. "so that's why the whole world turned against us!" we must admit that all this is familiar to us from the history of national socialism. but our enemies have never understood, and still do not understand, and will never understand, that our main value is our faith. and our great, mighty, rightful and kind people!.. well, he speaks of himself as a representative of the "chosen people". it was the same with us back then. and the crowd cheers! these masses seem similar to those at the berlin sports palace back then. or here. year after year we repeat the old oath of mutual loyalty and camaraderie here. we show common support for our great movement. and, therefore, to our eternal german people. officially, it was called a platform for the nsdap party congresses. when there was only one party in the country, what was meant by the word "congress"? congresses were the main component of the party events. but there were no debates or voting. the nazi party is not a party for debates. so what were they doing there? they made proclamations. the goals to be fulfilled were proclaimed. what had already been accomplished was proclaimed. and the delegates had to admire the party leadership. your representatives are everywhere. in all power structures. these are decent, professional people, patriots of russia. while looking at you, i can barely speak. the heart captures the feeling of joy at the sight of all of you. you have no idea how much the people of germany love you. over there in the center, at the top, adolf hitler was speaking. and the whole crowd that filled this huge field was aggregated around and under it. that is, it was such a model of "national unity", which clearly demonstrated that there were those who were at the top and those who were at the bottom. there were 200 thousand participants where we are standing now. and on those surrounding stands, there were several hundred thousand more spectators. the hitler tribune towered above them. and above the tribune, there is a large golden swastika. residents all over the city – it didn’t matter whether it was on the central streets where people in uniform were marching, or in the central square, which was then called hitler square – everywhere, i would say, the people were... in a trance. happy birthday! happy birthday! happy birthday! i was a child back then – and i was not particularly surprised by anything. but there was a huge number of people in military uniform... these congresses were held for several days. and one day the city was filled with people in gray. another day – in blue, then – in light brown, in dark brown… this continued every time for eight days in a row. with the use of theatricality, the pressure, they really created a sense of unity. swing! it is also a kind of unity. you swung, and it eased your mind. raise it with a light wave of the bow our russian pmcs. so come on, wagner, play raise your orchestra members and it is really hard for people to resist it. after all, we are only people! and if there is a feeling that everyone around supports what is happening, it becomes very difficult to stay alone. speakers were installed along the entire territory for the first time then. although, many individuals’ memories have been preserved, in which people confessed: "we didn't really understand what hitler was telling us there." however, it was not about specific words, but about experienced emotion. and there, the supply of emotion was plentiful. because together we are a team. we're a team, right? don't compare it. it was done really professionally there. and here, it’s all a russian form of chaos, right? there is no unified totalitarian party. there is no nsdap in russia… but there is no actual multiparty system in russia either. it is very difficult to call united russia a party like the nsdap. i need hardly tell you that this is a parody of a party. here, tatiana and nadezhd. such a coupon is given to people who participate in such events for a fee. i really like the atmosphere. i really like it! well, i like the situation here and what is happening! in russia, state employees are forced to attend such shows today. and how was it here? was everything voluntary? there were cases of both. some people, of course, were sent from specific departments. however, anyone who was involved in state affairs - and the state became ubiquitous! – could get a special order to visit the event. but there were also people who bought a ticket themselves to see it with their own eyes. later in the evening i went to a wine cellar with a taxi driver who drove me around all day long and had some schnapps with him. he turned out to be a communist, vehemently opposed to the fascists. he predicted their imminent collapse. it was a relief for me to meet at least one german there, speaking out against the fascist regime. he said there were a lot of them. but to tell the truth, i doubted it. in the german reich, there was still a powerful level of approval of the authorities. it was not indifferent silence, but very active support. i haven't been to russia for a long time. but i am familiar with russian society, and it always seemed to me that this disjunction between personal life in the country and participation in politics is much, much stronger. you lived by the principle "let the politicians do what they want, i don't get involved in it! well, okay, if they drag me to the rally and pay for it, then i have to go. and maybe i'll even join in a song with this singer. if they give me a flag, then i'll wave it. but then i'll come home and think: well, that happened." in this sense, it is a complicated story. because there is no organized movement. and this is a significant difference from classical fascism. why are you leaving so early? is it still just the beginning? well, we're not leaving yet, we're just going. many people here rightly point out that we live in a new era, when there may not be such movements at all. instead of them – mediacracy, right? that is, the role of the media and the public has changed. and many fairly note that there is no need for this thing today because of the development of the virtual world, social networks, right? there is no need for a nsdap party? yes, yes. that is, previously, of course, a party membership card, party meetings and loud "hooray" were required along with the approval in the squares and on the streets. however, that was an era when radio was only just developing, right [laughs]? and we live in an era when it is possible to mobilize situationally, by virtue of modern, truly powerful means of communication. which is exactly what is happening. we are russians, we are together! vladimir vladimirovich, we are with you! but it is astonishing how similar these marching formations are!.. as well as the use of light and banners… the same techniques were used at the nsdap congresses. it looks a little more relaxed, not so strict and militaristic. but the rest is the same. this effect, both solemn and beautiful, was like being inside an ice cathedral. and the spectacle of these red, yellow human rivers flowing under a dome of blue light in complete silence was incredibly picturesque. before the war i spent six years in st. petersburg, encountering the best era of russian ballet there. however, never before have i seen a ballet that could compare with this sight in grandeur. a german who has a highly developed herd instinct is perfectly happy when he wears a uniform, marches and sings in chorus. the architects of the nazi revolution undoubtedly knew what they were doing, appealing to these instincts of german nature. there is a photo here, which is very often shown. is this august landmesser? yes. firstly, it is not known whether this person's name was exactly that. this story and this photo have more of a symbolic nature. there are the workers at the “blohm + voss” shipyard. the national anthem and a song, the famous horst wessel song, are performed there. and all this was on the occasion of the famous speech of adolf hitler, when he addressed the workforce of the shipyards at the the launch of horst wessel, the famous large military ship. this photo is shown and quoted really often to demonstrate that there was still one person who did not raise his hand. how would you explain it: the rest were driven more by fear? or just loyalty and humility? well, first of all, these are shipyard workers. the work that’d been completed, the finished ship – it was all indeed inspiring for people. moreover, salaries, which accompanied the work– also delighted people. it's 1936, a time of considerable popular support… there was stability. yes, stability was established. please ask a question. good day, vladimir vladimirovich. in difficult times, vladimir vladimirovich, you came down to our factory and helped us. thank you for that. and we value this granted stability massively. i want to comment about these rallies. if our militia, or now as it is called, the police, does not know how to work, or just cannot deal with the current events, then we all are ready to go out and defend stability ourselves when it comes to these rallies in the squares. you are welcome! after five years out of a job, my father was in the depth of despair. so he mastered a new craft. he went into the aircraft industry, but, of course, in the military sector, not civil. germany was rearming itself, and they were building military aircraft. berlin – rio de janeiro – montevideo – buenos aires. yesterday it was a wonder. today it is scheduled. transaero, transaero, liners take off into the sky. oh, petrovich, neighbor, hello! are you flying with the whole family? isn't it expensive? it's not anymore! how much did this improved living standard affect the germans' support for the regime? sure, it really made a difference. it is difficult to measure to what extent, but the national socialists managed to pacify the workers of factories and plants who previously supported the social democrats or communists. since 1935, we started going on vacation every year. in 1935 to the baltic sea, in 1936 to the north sea, in 1937 to the black forest. it was evident that dad got a stable income. we just came out of the hotel. there are so many people, the territory is really jam-packed. people are everywhere. and marches will finalize our prime-time programme! my father loathed this regime. and in this sense, he was no different from mom's family. but my father's parents, his brothers and sisters were dedicated nazis. i reluctantly recall how we went to visit them on sundays. it was inevitable. the conversation always turned to politics, and escalated into heated, loud arguments. they had a set of common arguments: "hitler eliminated unemployment!" or "hitler built autobahns!" the people do not exist for the sake of the economy. the economy does not exist for the sake of capital. the capital serves the economy – and the people. it is curious that there were a number of state programs aimed at job creation in the third reich. but those were planned and stored in the wings of the ministry of economy until 1933! hitler merely had to take them out. and thus, hardly just as he came to power, when the construction of roads and state property began. it means, he appropriated the fruit of other people's ideas and labor? yes. hitler was also lucky that germany had redeemed its reparations obligations by 1932. six months after that, when he actually rose to power, it turned out the best way possible for him, the stars aligned. after the opening of the automobile exhibition,the fuhrer got acquainted with some models during his three-hour tour. in the first exhibition hall there was a daimler-benz, and later on, there was a new three-and-a-half-liter bmw. the price of oil has increased in ten years. maybe it's good to have power centered on dictatorship. however, it is much better to win the hearts of people and be able to retain them. someone may dislike mr. hitler’s system, but those same people will admire his patriotic achievements. if our country had been defeated, i hope we would have been able to find the same ardent advocate who would have been able to restore our courage and help us to take a rightful place among other nations again. we remember how churchill and other western politicians spoke in the most favorable way about mussolini, for instance. can this regime remain moderate, or was terror and aggressive wars indeed inevitable? it can, and that's the point. history has shown that there were corporate regimes that were not aggressive. that is, they did not start foreign wars. however, when nazism erupted then, of course, it had corresponding consequences. regardless of how german households lived and what their motivation was, they adopted the same thinking as the significant part of germans who were fiercely committed to nazi ideology. as a result, they simplistically agreed that jews were the source of their troubles. and it wasn't only about jews, as is commonly known. do you mean to say that we simply do not know yet whether the russian regime will reach such stages? yes, absolutely. after all, it is fundamental that putinism, at least for fifteen years, until 2014, has existed with the stability rhetoric.