"gma." >> this is... >> thanks be to god. >> excitement is growing with the pope's visit to the u.s. now just a month away. workers at st. patrick's cathedral are rushing to finish a massive 3-year renovation project -- st. pat's just one of several landmarks the pope will see during a 5-day trip covering 3 major cities. so, what message will the pontiff bring to one of the richest nations in the world? what will he tell members of congress when he addresses them in washington? and what will he ask of u.s. bishops when he meets with them? our special guest this morning for the entire half-hour -- new york's cardinal, timothy dolan. and good morning and welcome to "upclose." i'm diana williams. we are now less than a month

away from the pope's visit here to the united states. this is a trip that will begin on september 22nd in washington, d.c. in just 48 hours, the pope will meet with president obama, he'll then meet with bishops, and he'll also address a joint session of congress. his next stop is new york city, on september 24th. he'll arrive at jfk airport, getting his first look ever at the big apple. >> great, great, great, great. >> it is incredibly special. >> you can already feel the excitement on the streets, from east harlem to lower manhattan -- the 79-year-old pope francis making his first trip to the u.s., a trip that includes new york. >> thanks be to god. >> the visit will begin with evening prayers at st. patrick's cathedral. the church is still undergoing a massive $175 million renovation, and workers are scurrying to finish quickly. the pope will then address world leaders at the united nations. then it's on to ground zero, where the pontiff will pay his respects to the victims of 9/11.

>> pope francis is beloved around the world, and for him to acknowledge the significance and specialness of this place through his visit is something that we couldn't imagine happening, and now we are just completely taken with it. >> the pope will also take in a bit of harlem at our lady queen of angels school. members of the largely immigrant community look forward to welcoming him. >> he is special. that man is special. >> the final stop for the pope during his whirlwind 40 hours in the city -- madison square garden, where he'll celebrate mass before a packed house of up to 20,000 people. now, the pope will leave new york city on saturday, september 26th, for a 2-day visit to philadelphia, and that is where the focus will be on what is really the primary purpose of his trip, the eighth world meeting of families. joining us now to talk about the pope's visit, the preparations, and so much more, is new york's cardinal, timothy dolan.

good to have you back on the program again, cardinal. >> thank you. i'm so eager to talk about this. >> you've got to be -- >> i'm so excited about it. >> you personally have got to be so excited about this visit, right? >> you bet. you bet. >> so, we saw pictures there of the scaffolding at st. pat's. >> mm-hmm. >> is that down? >> it's down. and this is good news. now, remember, this all started a long time ago. i give a lot of credit to my predecessor, cardinal egan. >> mm-hmm. >> so, at the beginning, we were told we should be able to have it done by christmas. so, last october, when i was in rome for the world senate on marriage and family, i cornered the pope. i can tell you this now. i couldn't say it back then. i cornered him and said, "holy father, i don't want to put you on the spot, but i do. are you gonna come or not?" i'm gonna come." so -- and he said probably the end of september, because he knew he wanted to be at the philadelphia. so, i came back and i met -- i said, "i can't say anything, but let's just say i'm really eager to have your assurance that this is gonna be done by the 1st of september," and it will. we're still gonna have to work

outside, like the heating and cooling that we're gonna do and all, but that -- you know, that can wait. that's not -- people aren't gonna be seeing that. the outside and the inside and especially with the scaffolding -- all down. and have you been in? it's so sparkling and so radiant, this restored and repaired st. patrick's. and to think that he's gonna come in, he's gonna bless it, this great work of restoration and repair -- oh, my. what -- you talk about good housekeeping seal of approval on a sacred task, so... >> so, police commissioner bill bratton has said that the pope does not -- it is his understanding that the pope does not want to be in a bubble while >> [ laughs ] >> so -- and i think that was his term. bubble. so, there's definitely a challenge that's out there in order to protect the pontiff, because there's a lot of concerns. you know, he's gonna get out of the popemobile. he might take selfies with whatever. i mean, do you have those concerns, or do you think -- i mean, this holy father is known for just kind of jumping out there with the crowds.

>> i do. he has an amazing spontaneity and even an impetuosity that's part of this massive appeal that he has. that's a headache for planners, as you might imagine. that's a delight for people. so, we're kind of caught in the middle, because what you've got are two extraordinarily noble desires. on the part of commissioner bratton, the police department, and the secret service, they say, "hey, we have the highest responsibility to protect this see him." the pope is saying, "i got an equally sacred responsibility to be in touch with my people." you are right. commissioner bratton is right. the holy father has said, not just for this trip but for any, he does not want to be separated glass. so, the secret service has said, "well, we're gonna try our best to respect that, but we still -- we still have to have extraordinarily rigorous security." >> there's been some talk that perhaps rather than having him go down 5th avenue that they may have the popemobile going through central park, that that pope to be. >> that could work. i think there's a number of options being considered now,

'cause what happens -- look, what do we got? what do we got, diana? that's why i'm glad that you all and all the journalists and the media people have been so interested in this. the major way people are gonna see him is on tv, but the major way they're gonna see him live is in the motorcades. we can only get 4,000 in st. patrick's. we can only get 24,000 at madison square garden. we can only get 500 ecumenical and interreligious people down at ground zero. we can only get a couple thousand of the representatives of the surviving families and the rescue workers. where is 99.9% of new york gonna see him but when he's in some type of motorcade? so, in some way, while respecting the very legitimate and laudable demands of security with a nod to his desire to be seen in an unfettered way by as many people as possible, in some way, we got to thread that out. >> who handles most of these plans for the pope? is it the archdiocese? is it the vatican? who's handling most -- >> the vatican would. >> the vatican? >> there is a security force at

the vatican -- a very good one, if i do say so myself -- and it's led by an expert in security by the name of dr. giani, who has been over, but he, of course, trusts on the local setup. he's already been over twice and is gonna come back again. he meets with the head of secret service, who ultimately, because the holy father is the head of state, who ultimately has the yes and nos, but also meeting with the new york police department, who are pros when it comes to this, and commissioner bratton and new york's finest have been very generous in cooperation. but, ultimately, it's dr. giani, and what he says is he kind of shrugs and he says, "look, i have a boss that really wants to be close to people, and so let's try our best to protect him while not straitjacketing him." >> so, i actually saw this, and this is on the new york archdiocese website. >> mm-hmm. >> that in rome, the pope has been known to venture out at night dressed as a regular priest to meet with homeless men and women. >> uh-huh. >> do you have any worries that

he might do that while he's here? >> i don't know. when i asked him, i said, "holy father, what do you want to do when you come to new york?" he started off by saying... [ speaking italian ] "i'd like to eat a hot dog with you." now, after that, he told me what he would like to do. but you know what? you know, we kind of stereotyped pope benedict as a bit more aloof and shy. the folks that were with him in 2008 said he did that when he was supposedly in for the night on 72nd street at the residence of the papal nuncio to the u.n. there were thousands and thousands of people out there chanting. he got up, dressed, went out. the security went crazy, said, "holy father, you can't. we're buttoned down for the evening." he walked out and was with them to greet them. so, this is -- >> so, that wouldn't surprise you if that were to happen? >> no, it wouldn't surprise me. no. no. now, if he wants to borrow some ordinary clothes, he wouldn't quite fit in mine, but we'll get somebody -- something closer to his size. >> and you talk about sharing a hot dog with the pope. has he expressed any interest in certain american foods that he

would like to try, other than the hot dog? >> no, and, in fact, here's what we've been told, 'cause i said, "will the pope come and eat?" so, dr. giani and dr. gasparri, who also coordinates it -- he said, "look, when the pope comes, he doesn't like to spend a lot of time on meals. he wants to spend as much time as possible being with people, so you don't have to worry about that." now, he's not staying with me. he's staying with archbishop auza at the united nations embassy of the holy see. and he said when he comes in, he'll want a sandwich and a bowl of soup up in his room, and he'll get ready for the next stop. >> let's talk a little bit about some of the messaging that is gonna be on this trip. you know, immigration has certainly been a very heated issue in the presidential race so far, and it's also a big issue for the pope, and you've come out speaking about immigration... >> i have. thanks for noticing. >> ...and going after donald trump on this. what are your expectations on what we're gonna hear about this from the pope? >> all right. here's what we got to keep in mind. now, most of us, myself included -- we're kind of thinking of what you might call the worldly or social or

political issues that he's gonna touch on, and he will. and you've just mentioned some of them. keep in mind, first and foremost, he comes as a pastor. he comes as an apostle. he comes as an evangelist. so, first and foremost, he's gonna talk about god. he's gonna talk about jesus. to holiness. he's gonna talk about the dignity of the human person and the sacredness of human life. he's gonna speak about all those issues. that's first and foremost what he's gonna talk about. don't they? there are certain -- oh, boy, there are certain results that come from that faith that he's gonna talk about, most of all, and there's where he's gonna try to give us some direction. dignity of the human person, sacredness of human life when it comes to the way we treat the immigrant, when it comes to the way that we reach out to the poor and the sick, when it comes to the way that we view the baby in the womb, when it comes to america's great heritage of helping the poor and the war-torn throughout the world.

those are all areas i got a hunch that he's gonna spend some time on, but first and foremost, he's gonna be a preacher. it's gonna be like going to a sunday sermon, okay? so, he's not here -- he's not gonna start with those issues. >> no. >> he's gonna start with what god has told us, and then he's gonna say, "and this is how we need to act in response to god's message." >> and he is speaking to congress, which is the first pope ever to speak to both houses of congress, and popes generally don't come here and scold, but they do come and challenge. >> they do come and challenge. >> so, what do you expect his challenge is going to be to the house and the senate? >> i don't have any insight on this, but if you want me to place a bet here, and i think you're asking, i think he's probably gonna take the lead that pope st. john paul ii and pope benedict did. now, if you go back to the talk -- you're right. they never spoke to congress. but they did give -- pope john paul ii, remember, on the mall in washington before a million people, pope benedict xvi on the white house lawn --

what did they do in a very beautiful way? like any good teacher, like any parent knows, one of the best ways you challenge and call people to maybe some type of reform of lives is by reminding them of the noble side of their very identity. so, pope john paul ii, for instance, on the mall -- will we ever forget it when he spoke about the noble ideals upon which america was based and then said, "today, here's the ways that you live up to that"? benedict did the same when he spoke about religious freedom. >> do you think he's gonna have an impact on the anti-immigrant rhetoric that you're hearing in this country right now? >> i would bet he would. controversy. i think you're gonna find everybody's asking, "who is going to applaud more -- the democrats or the republicans? who's gonna frown more -- the democrats or the republicans?" i would probably reckon that both sides will have an equal share of smiling and frowning. >> because there are some who've said that this could backfire on the republicans. it was the republicans who invited him.

>> it was the republicans who'd issued the invitation, yeah. >> exactly, and so there are some who say that this could backfire. >> sure, and i would anticipate that there would be things that speaker boehner would be saying, "yippee," you know, when he speaks about the unity of the family, the defense of marriage, the unborn life, when he speaks about all of that. i would say there might be some things where speaker boehner might be less enthusiastic when he would speak about the duty of government towards the poor and the sick, when he would speak about the right of the immigrant, when he... >> criticizes capitalism. >> and the preference of diplomacy over military action. those kind of things are gonna make the other side happy, and so it's gonna be -- he's an equal-opportunity prophet. [ laughs ] >> you know the pope on a personal level, so before we go to break, when you sit down one-on-one with him, what's he like? >> well, when you sit down one-on-one with him, he would come across as shy, and he loves to listen. he comes across as shy.

he's very self-conscious about his inability with english. now, i think his english is better than he lets on, and i've told him that, but he's very -- he's very nervous about that, and that's something -- now, you know, when he went to korea, he spoke in english, and when he went to the philippines, and i thought he did a fine job. we're told he might use a lot of spanish when he's in the united states, but i'm sure he's gonna do some english, as well. so, that adds to that shyness that was talking about. the second thing that always inspires me is that he kind of, then, wants to know about yourself. so, you know, most of the time, you expect the pope to tell you about things that are on his mind. he's very attentive to what you want to say, and it's very clear that he's extraordinarily comfortable in his own skin. [ coughs ] he has an immense trust and respect for the views of other people. and he likes to listen. he likes to look. this is what people keep saying -- "what do you think --

why do you think the pope's coming to america? what does he want to say to us?" and i keep saying, "i think he wants to come to america -- i know he does -- 'cause he wants to see us. he's curious about the united states. he's never been! >> he's never been here. he's never seen new york, never seen the tall buildings, never set foot on american soil. >> he said, "i want to see you. i want to see your people. i want to see your city. i want to listen. i want to learn." so, that's why -- i know you're gonna ask me a little later about some of the places that we're going, but those are things he told me he wanted to get to know better. >> okay. take a sip of water. >> mm-hmm. >> when we come back, we're gonna talk with cardinal dolan also about the challenges facing the new york archdiocese -- the downsizing, the closing of churches. all that's coming up next.

stay with us.

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>> welcome back to "upclose." we are glad that you're with us this morning as we continue our conversation with new york's cardinal dolan. cardinal, again, good to have you here with us. you have seen and been part of a shrinking archdiocese. >> mm. mm-hmm. >> you've had to downsize with schools. you've had to downsize with churches. it's always a painful process. >> oh, is it ever. >> is it a reversible trend? >> i think so. now, we got to be careful. we want to clarify when we talk about downsizing, 'cause the good news is our population has gone up. our catholic population is going up. the challenging news is they're in areas now where the churches are no longer. >> so, it's more of a demographic issue in terms of restructuring where -- >> it's sort of a demographic shift, so the numbers are going up, which is great news, and that, by the way, is due to what? well, people freely entering the faith -- our converts -- but also immigrants, which is one of the reasons we're so tender about that issue, because a good

chunk of the immigrants happen to be catholic, and very good ones. so, reversible -- and keep in mind, too, diana, the other part of this is even though we had to merge, even though we had to downsize, to use your word, we're also expanding and building elsewhere because our people have moved out. so, we got places up north where they have mass in a gym and they don't have enough room. >> and they need to build a church. >> and here we got churches down here that are half-empty. and so we're thinking, "this isn't fair." >> when a pope comes to visit, do you see an increase in church attendance, and do you see it before, after, during? how does that affect church attendance? >> yeah. it's very interesting. in fact, let me give you an example. at the end of may, i had the great experience of ordaining 12 men priests, all right? if you do your math now, those 12 men that i ordained a priest would have entered the seminary right after poe benedict's visit. so, this is the most men we've ordained priests in like a quarter-century, and it'd be a direct result, i think, of the visit of benedict.

now, most of the data that we got is anecdotal, but there is -- there's -- almost every bishop in any part of the world that has had a papal visit will say you'll see an uptick -- >> so, an increase not only in church attendance but also in the number of people wanting to... >> yeah. you'll have an interest -- you'll have an increase in interest, people inquiring about the faith. you'll see an uptick in mass attendance. you'll see people back to confession. you'll see people back to prayer. you'll see people asking good questions. you might even see an increase in the collection. who knows? >> you see just 12 priests, though. that's such a small number. >> it is a small number, and it's not enough, but the good news is from days that we were doing one, two, and three, this isn't bad. >> mm-hmm. you are on twitter. >> oh, yeah. >> and i know the pope's on twitter. >> uh-huh. >> are you both gonna be tweeting? >> i sure will, and i think he will, too. he's shrewd, as we all have to be these days, and he says, "look, how is best to keep in touch with people?" and he knows that's one of the ways, so... >> yeah. yeah.

so, he's gonna be doing that with you. i know that, um... the pope has been very concerned with homelessness. >> yeah, he has. >> and you walk around new york city right now, and you see a lot of homeless people out on the streets. you see it, right? >> you bet i do. >> how do you think the city is doing right now in dealing with the homeless? >> well, i think the bad news is we're not doing too well. we have too many homeless, and we don't seem to have too -- >> do you fault the mayor for that? >> no, because that was my next step. i think the bad news is we got too many homeless. the good news is we have a mayor that's very sensitive about that. and i can tell you from personal experience, 'cause i've already been in touch with him -- he's got some extraordinarily promising and innovative ideas, and he's been kind enough to cooperate with religious leaders in meeting what i think is a major challenge in our city. >> how's your relationship with the mayor? >> it's good. it's very good. >> it's a good one? >> yeah. he likes pasta as well as i do. >> mm-hmm. >> [ laughs ] no, it is very good. >> but he doesn't go to church. >> no, although he describes himself -- by the way, it's a

good chunk of americans -- as spiritual but not religious. so, he's not afraid at all to speak about faith, about prayer, about god. he's very candid to say, "i was raised without any particular creed." he's also very realistic -- i find refreshingly so -- in recognizing the positive and constructive role that religion and the churches play in the new york community, so i admire that. >> and you've worked with him closely on the pre-k and on a number of things. >> pre-k. we're talking about housing now for the homeless, catholic charities. we've worked together when he, i think, wisely knew that he needed the help of pastors when he came last summer, remember, with the sadness and the threats after the staten island and then with the murder of the two policemen. he corralled us in, and he said, "i need you people. you're the first place people go in need, and i need you to bring some healing and reconciliation to the city." i admired him for asking our help. >> mm-hmm. papal tickets. >> yes.

>> can anyone get one right now? is it too late? >> no, no, no, no, no. in fact, we haven't even started yet. >> haven't started the process? >> now, what are we gonna do? the major venue is madison square garden, where we have about 24,000 people. >> is it 24,000? >> and what we're gonna do, diana, is go through the parishes. we feel that's the best way. that's the front lines, so we're gonna -- we're gonna try to use, proportionally, depending upon the number of people in each parish, we're gonna say, "you get 40, you get 50. father, however you want to distribute them -- you want to use a lottery, you want to give it to your parish council, to your whatever, your call." so, there's one. then we got st. patrick's cathedral. that's only gonna be 3,500. we're inviting our lay leaders of our different committees and representative priests and sisters. remember, too, we got to get brooklyn in. we got to get the diocese of brooklyn and the diocese of rockville centre. >> bottom line, can you make everyone happy? >> no. no. >> okay. >> for everybody that gets in, you've got 10 that are gonna be -- gonna be upset. but that's why we want to try to find out some of these motorcades, 'cause that's the best way to see the pope. >> right, and have an

understanding of where he's gonna be so people can see him. >> please, god. >> cardinal, such a pleasure to have you. >> my honor, diana. you'll be there, won't you? >> absolutely. absolutely. >> he told me he would really enjoy just sitting down for a half-hour with a journalist. you got any ideas? >> put me on the list. [ both laugh ] that would be quite special. >> how's your spanish? >> muy bien. muy bien. gracias, cardinal. we will be right back after

this. >> finally this morning, we louis stokes. he was the founding member of the congressional black caucus, and he served 15 terms representing ohio. congressman stokes was 90 years old. he was also the father of eyewitness news anchor lori stokes. bill ritter has more on the legacy he leaves behind.

>> louis stokes was raised poor, living in one of the country's first federally funded housing projects in cleveland. >> i've been fortunate enough to rise from having begun in poverty to become a lawyer. >> stokes and his brother, carl, who became the first african-american elected mayor of a major city, came to represent a revolution in civil rights that would eventually see the election of blacks around the country. lou stokes started his career as a lawyer for the naacp, representing many of the activists fighting for civil rights in the 1960s. he was at the march on washington with his family in 1963 with dr. martin luther king. stokes shot this film. that little girl who could barely walk -- that's lori, his daughter. louis stokes would, in 1968, argue before the u.s. supreme court a case that would later set limits and guidelines for police stop-and-frisk procedures. it was called terry vs. ohio. >> the terry case set up certain guidelines. they were called the terry frisk

guidelines. those frisk guidelines are taught in every police department in america. they're also taught in the law schools -- every law school -- in america. >> later that year, stokes ran for and won a seat in congress, where he would serve for 30 years. in the early 1970s, along with 12 other black members of the house, he would start the black congressional caucus. his colleagues then included new york's charlie rangel and shirley chisholm. he was out of congress for nearly a decade by the time america elected barack obama. >> senator barack obama came up, and we hugged one another, and it's at that time that he said to me -- he said, "i'm here because of you and your brother." >> two years ago, we interviewed lou stokes and his daughter lori -- their first joint tv appearance. >> did you want her to go into footsteps? >> well, i let all of them choose their own thing, right? >> did you want her to go into >> i did.

[ both laugh ] >> i did not. [ laughter ] >> when his friend ted kennedy died in 2009, lou stokes summed up the famous senator's legacy, although, looking back, he could very well have been talking about his own... and he likely was. >> the legacy he leaves is what a public servant can do to change conditions in a nation. he changed america, in many respects. >> good man, good dad. and that'll do it for this edition of "upclose." if you missed any of today's program, you can catch it again on our website, 7online.com. we thank you for watching. i'm diana williams.