>> this is... >> [ voice breaking ] i got to live the rest of my life without my son. >> it is an unbearable pain -- a mother speaking out after her 4-year-old son is killed by a stray bullet, and she's now taking action, along with reverend al sharpton and others, to lead a campaign to try to stop gun violence. reverend sharpton joins us this morning. but first, another mass shooting in america -- this time, in san bernardino, california. this time, at least 14 killed and now questions about how a county worker and his wife suddenly turned into killers, targeting fellow government workers and now a connection to isis. good morning, everyone. i'm bill ritter, in for diana. this latest gun massacre once

sobering reflection about guns. syed farook, along with his wife, tashfeen malik, walked in to a meeting and holiday party for his co-workers and then just started shooting. they fired 75 shots. they also left behind several pipe bombs bundled together with a remote-control car. fortunately, that bomb didn't go off. they also had another dozen pipe bombs at the house they were staying at and thousands of rounds of ammunition they could have used to carry out even more attacks. take a listen to the first officer to arrive at this horrific shooting scene. >> we wanted to get in there and we wanted to stop any further innocent people from being -- being injured and possibly killed. as we entered into the conference room, the situation was surreal. it was something that i don't think, again, we prepare for and they try to -- an active shooter -- we talk about sensory overload. they just try to throw everything at you to prepare you for dealing with that -- what

hearing, what you're smelling, and it was all of that and more. it was unspeakable -- the carnage that we were seeing, the number of people who were injured and, unfortunately, already dead. and when we entered, there was fresh gunpowder and the smell of gunpowder in the air, and the pure panic on the face of those individuals that were still in need and needing to be safe, and then we went further into the building, and that was a difficult choice to have to make, as well -- passing people that we knew were injured and in need of assistance, but our goal at that time had to be trying to locate the shooters and -- and deal with them. >> i grew up in southern california. i can tell you the police department in san bernardino is not accustomed to this kind of event. our guests this morning to talk about all this and more are maki haberfeld, professor of political science at john jay college of criminal

and tim horner. he's managing director of the new york office of kroll, a giant security company. now, as we taped this show friday afternoon, there are reports that the wife of the shooter, the county worker, had pledged her allegiance to isis under a pseudonym on facebook, and, obviously, a lot will develop, but we're going with that assumption, and i don't think it's -- you said it didn't surprise you, maki, when we talked about it earlier. >> no, it didn't, because, you know, i've done research on radicalization in europe, studying 10 years ago, and then just talking to people of the second generation born in europe and identifying with various radical concepts. to me, it was already pretty clear that it will happen in the united states, as well. >> yeah. i should tell, just by way of your credentials, you worked with the israeli defense systems and as a sergeant and then with the police department as a lieutenant. you've been here. you've worked in counterterrorism. you, tim, have worked with the nypd and have been with kroll for many years. you guys are experts in this

i want to talk about the big picture and then the little picture, because the new york times this last week asked its readers, "have you thought about what you would do in a workplace or social, public-scene setting for a shooting?" and the response was unbelievable -- over the top. thousands of people said, "yes, i have," and they talked about it. surprise you, tim? >> no. not at all. even when you mentioned san bernardino and a small police department, you can just see how well-prepared they were to handle that situation. i think the public now is doing the same thing. you saw the responses that they had as related to, you know, handling that tragic situation. the civilians knew how to properly raise their hand, get out of the location, find safe rooms -- all of those things -- and safe areas. unfortunately, this is the time we live in, and people are being prepared. >> they knew how to get out of there once the scene was

came in, there was not a hostage-taking situation. this is not the old-fashioned kind of hostage-taking that we grew up with, where someone wants a, you know, briefcase full of gold bouillon and a plane ticket to europe. these people were there to kill them. so, how do we respond? what do you suggest to people? >> well, you know, i always said the best way is to run, but after running, the second-best way is to try to fight, because some people suggest "find a place to hide." there isn't enough time to think like this, to find a place to hide, so you have to resist. and, you know, in each and every situation, whether it's paris or what happened in san bernardino now, you see that the shooters are just a few people, and then there are hundreds of others there -- in san bernardino, a little bit less -- but the numbers are actually in favor... >> of the hostages. >> ...of the hostages. so, yes, there always will be causalities, but less casualties rather than more. >> it's easy to say -- sitting here, it's easy for you two, who have been in the combat of law enforcement, to say, "you know

us don't know until we're faced, heaven forbid, with that possibility. >> sure. >> but that's what we have to start thinking, right? get ourselves to be prepared to say, "if this happens, i'm gonna try to be a hero, because i don't want anyone else to get hit, and if we all gang up on 'em, they can't kick all of us." >> i think the point is you have to take action. you have to act. you know, you're surprised at what happens in these situations. you're, of course, not thinking about it. you're at a christmas party, and someone comes in with a firearm and starts shooting up a fire-- shooting up the event. you know, you have to think about, beforehand, what you're going to do, and then you have to realize you have to act, 'cause you don't have any time. there are seconds and minutes, and the most amount of time you have is a few minutes. >> and i don't think it's about being a hero. it's literally about saving your life. you cannot say, "oh, law enforcement will come." these things happen within less than a few minutes. best-case scenario, law enforcement will come in five, seven minutes, so you must act to save your life. >> and anything is a weapon.

right? -- a cup, a chair. >> high heels are a great weapon. the air, so... >> but, you know, there are always a few ladies. you're absolutely right. anything, right? >> anything that can be thrown at the attackers, whether it's a chair, whether it's any piece of furniture that a couple of people can pick up and throw it at the shooters. >> and a funny thing happens. if one person does it... >> everybody will follow. yeah. it's a group thing, and in situations like this, when many people will freeze, the ones who will not will save their lives. >> why san bernardino? it's like, you know, going to kingston up here or something. why would -- it's what you guys call a soft target. but what does it prove? what does it prove? just they can do it? >> go ahead. >> well, it's an inside -- they're inside our borders. the people that are being radicalized are here. they're americans. they're people that are maybe first-generation, second-generation, coming here that are now radicalized. so, they're inside of our borders, and we need to

game right now than it was. >> and from my end, i think that, you know, terrorists in general, whether organized or less organized -- they want to be successful. the chances of being successful in places that are less secure are much greater, so try to perpetrate an attack like this in a city that is very highly protected... >> like new york. >> ...like new york, chances that you might still do something, but the number of people you're going to kill is nothing in comparison to a place in the middle of nowhere. >> you both are trained in firearms. you know what you're doing. what do you say to the people -- there's a sheriff in ulster county who wants to have all the citizens to carry their guns, put them in holsters, and go out there and protect themselves. what do you say to the people who would say, "well, you know, if those people had been armed, they might have been able to fight back"? >> not necessarily, because, again, of the element of surprise. law enforcement using their guns is very different because they train and they're prepared and their frame of mind is different than civilians. even if you carry a permit does not necessarily mean that you're

and effective manner. trained. >> not properly trained. i think, actually, the high better. >> [ chuckles ] >> you know, you're laughing, but that's the reality of this. i'm laughing because i think you're right. tim, what do you think? >> yeah, i agree. a firearm, if you're not properly trained and you're not willing to use it -- 'cause it is just something that now adds to the situation, not to your benefit. >> we could talk all day, but i thank you for coming, and i think it's part of the process of changing our mind-set and being ready for this, just like we're ready for, in california, ready for earthquake. here you're ready for the power to go out -- whatever. you have to be ready. in your mind, what would you do? and i thank you for being honest and candid in this discussion. a lot of people. all right, tim and maki. thank you very much. when we come back, more on gun violence -- this time, though, the everyday street violence. reverend al sharpton and several others forming a new national campaign to try to stop gun violence.

>> two gun massacres in less than a week. yes, we have been here before, pleading for sanity amidst this insane gun violence, but now a new national push to try to end all of these deaths by guns. the numbers are just staggering. more than 11,000 people are shot and killed in the united states every year. reverend al sharpton and spike lee, the filmmaker, are among those now calling for action to try to stop that. and joining them, the mother of a young boy murdered by senseless gun violence in new york city and making an emotional plea. she can't save her son, but maybe she can help save someone else's. here's eyewitness news reporter tim fleischer. >> [ voice breaking ] i got to

my son. >> at just 4 years old, lloyd morgan is a glaring example of the senseless gun violence his mother and others want to stop. >> this is not just a problem -- a problem here in harlem. it's not just a problem here in new york. it's a problem throughout this nation. >> this new initiative also brought out filmmaker spike lee. >> stop the murder madness, or there will be no more hope! >> the situation's out of control! >> his new movie, "chi-raq," is about gang violence in chicago. >> satire will be the best way for us to tell this very serious story. >> joining this very serious issue, a lawmaker, a civic activist, and community leaders want to raise greater awareness of gun violence and confront its deadly nature on many fronts. >> it is absolutely unacceptable that we are shooting our children with illegal guns... >> that's right. >> ...and then the next day we act like nothing ever happened. >> but filmmaker spike lee

after laquan mcdonald, who was shot 16 times by a chicago police officer in this disturbing video, and silent after this 9-year-old was killed. >> like tyshawn lee gets led into an alley... >> that's right. >> ...and executed. it's not an either-or situation. it has to be both. >> why are we not doing more? our children are being murdered. >> tim fleischer, channel 7 "eyewitness news." >> just so profoundly sad. joining us this morning to talk about this and more, reverend al sharpton for the national action network. reverend sharpton, thanks for joining us. >> thank you. >> so, where do you begin? you're gonna have this national campaign. what is it gonna entail? >> it's gonna entail -- we started a petition drive saturday at national action network. we are saying to the legislators, "you've got to do something about easy access to guns." let's not forget that in san bernardino, those two bought assault weapons legally, and

governor andrew cuomo was on my radio show this week, bringing up the fact there are loopholes that the nra has been able to get right-wing legislators to not close that allow people that are on the list of suspects where you can't fly -- they're on the no-fly list -- but you can still go and purchase a gun. so, are we serious here? we are outraged with colorado and with san bernardino happening within five days, but a person that can't get on an airline and fly cross-country because they're suspected to be terrorists or may be terrorists, but they can still go buy a gun. we've got to have some legislative response. it may not stop it all, but it will certainly bring back some. >> to that point, house speaker paul ryan said on television the other day that he was against going that way about the no-fly list because some of these people get there, he says, accidentally. >> yeah, which is absurd. i mean, so, that's to say that

stop traffic because some people still go through. i mean, the purpose of legislators is to respond to what is going on in their period of service, in their time, and they've done nothing. we've gone from newtown to san bernardino, and we've had no legislative response. not even a background check has passed this congress, and we say we need to mobilize it from the ground -- spike lee, with "chi-raq," using satire and now getting the hollywood community involved, those in the churches, those in the streets, street activists, erica ford and others. we need to mobilize. shianne norman, who you played in the clip, lost her 4-year-old son in new york three years ago. i preached his funeral. it started a movement to occupy corners. but we've got to do more mobilization. yes, we question bad policing. yes, we mobilize and continue to

mobilize against these easy access to guns. >> well, the new york police department would agree with you. they want to get the guns off the street, as well. they thought, under mayor bloomberg and ray kelly, that they were doing that with their stop-and-frisk. they did take a lot of guns out. we've cut back on that. would a little bit of stop-and-frisk help bring some guns off? >> well, if you look at the facts, the facts are that when mayor de blasio came in -- and many of us supported him because he supported cutting back on stop-and-frisk -- crime did not go up for two years. we've had a surge in shootings that are gang-related this year, but stop-and-frisk was brought down for two years, so the numbers don't speak to that. people said that immediately after stop-and-frisk goes down, we're going to see the numbers go up. it didn't happen. and i think that to violate innocent people and to push them to the side and their civil liberties to the side with them is not the answer. >> so then what is the answer? how do you get rid of these guns?

legislator before -- legislatures before -- certainly in washington. a lot of these guys -- the nra is a very powerful lobby group. they give campaign contributions. they're very powerful. and congress has not stood up to them. >> you make it a campaign issue and you tell the congressmen, "nra will support you if you're in office. if you're voted out of office and if a movement is there, it will be stronger than the nra." the nra has never faced a real people's movement, and this drive is trying to mobilize that. >> there is, in fact -- the tragedy of all this is that, you know, you talk as a reverend and activist in the african-american community, and african-americans pay a huge price in this. >> absolutely. >> the murder rates in the country are way disproportionate. the victims are african-american. >> it's like you live in a stage of siege. you're in a community where you're not protected by everything from gang violence to random shooting, and then you see tapes like chicago or, here in new york, eric garner.

both sides, and this is why a lot of people are beginning to say, "enough is enough" and you're seeing this mobilization national action network and others are trying to spearhead. >> the young man who was shot and killed in chicago -- that video was released, but the facts are that the city already settled with the family for $5 million. the police officer now facing charges of murder. why it took so long is under investigation, but that officer is now charged with murder. >> he's charged after the video came out. many of us -- i have a chicago chapter -- said when it happened, "why don't we see the video?" and then to give a $5 million settlement to a family that never had even filed suit -- not even a notice of claim -- is what has added to the suspicion, "was it politics here?" 'cause, don't forget, they were in the middle of an election that went to a run-off, and many feel if that tape had come out then, it would have turned the election another way, 'cause it was that close that it went to a run-off. so, the question becomes, now you're going to trust the

anything for 13 months and who had the tape -- you're gonna trust her to now go forward with the case? i think that what we feel is that what was done in new york with governor andrew cuomo and the justice coalition and the mothers and national action network working with them should be a national model. he said we should have a special prosecutor on all police killings, and he did that. and new york state has done that. that's an achievement we've been able to do. now we need to duplicate that all over the country. the governor of illinois has not opened his mouth. he's had laryngitis on this. >> let's talk about eric garner for a second. there was a protest this last week at gracie mansion. a lot of people want mayor de blasio to order this officer who is under investigation by the justice department right now for putting a stranglehold on eric garner -- getting him to be fired or at least have disciplinary action. >> i said in the beginning, if you remember, and it was all over the front page -- i was castigated.

in a meeting at city hall, that we need you, commissioner bratton, to take this cop out. in fact, until we start perp-walking bad cops, we're not gonna stop this. this was before the grand jury had came back, saying, "don't indict him," because that's when you could have made the move. once the grand jury ruled, now it goes to the federal government at the request of the family, and you don't want to interfere and have these police come forward and testify at a police hearing since there's been no indictment and compromise the federal case. the time to fire them is immediately, which was done, by the way, in north charleston, south carolina, and i think that that is why i did what i did at that time. people will say, "why was sharpton in the meeting?" i was there because i was the one that was leading the fight for the family, and i knew what i was talking about then. to come after the grand jury now raises all kinds of legal questions. >> something has to be done, because everyone suffers from

we saw it with this latest terror attack, the one at the planned parenthood. we see it in the streets of new york, and this poor woman's son -- at least she is now joining forces with you, and she's become the face of your movement. >> she is the face of the movement -- her and many victims -- and when you see people like iesha sekou and others that are on the street every day in this, and when i preached this boy's funeral -- i've preached a lot of funerals. 4-year-old boy in -- almost like a shoe box could have held his body. i will never forget it. >> just tragic. >> and we have got to do something about it. >> thanks for taking time this morning to talk to us. >> thank you. >> when we come back, we turn to presidential politics. mr. trump on the rise, or at least holding steady, but can new jersey governor chris christie improve his old numbers? he thinks he can after he gets the endorsement from the largest newspaper in new hampshire. mr. christie is optimistic, but is anyone else?

>> take a look at these numbers. the latest cnn/orc poll shows mr. trump, donald trump, with what is probably his biggest lead yet in the race for president, trump leading with 36%, a 20% lead, 20-point lead, over the second-place ted cruz. governor christie now in 5th place with just 4%. let's talk about this and more politics -- the week that was -- with our political team, jeanne zaino, political-science professor at iona college, and nyu and political consultant hank sheinkopf. that's a big number for mr. trump. he was holding steady for a while, and now he's jumped up. >> it's a commanding lead, but i think part of the other story is ted cruz, up 8 points, so i think there you see, you know, a real shift in movement, and jeb bush down by 4 or 5 points, way at the bottom, at about 3%. but i think part of what's going on here is what's happened in paris, what's happened in

people want a strong leader, and they -- you know, regardless of some of the silly comments that he makes, they see donald trump as that kind of tough leader. >> we'll get to the silly comments in a second, but trump said this week, to your point, jeanne, that "when these things happen, terrorist attacks happen, my poll numbers go up." he just -- he said that. >> yeah, but let's argue the following -- that many of the people who are tested are probably not gonna turn out. trump is a specific candidate with a specific constituency, that cruz will likely win the iowa caucuses. today he's got the best on-the-ground operation. iowa caucuses tend to vote -- they're more evangelicals. they tend to vote further to the right, but cruz will be propelled forward, at least in iowa, and that jeb bush's last stand is probably new hampshire, and then he's out of business. that we do know, so trump is the beneficiary of the moment. can it last into iowa? not likely. >> but you said -- both of you, on these chairs, not that many months ago -- "okay, he won't last the summer," then "he won't last the fall," and now, all of a sudden, he's got 36%. >> but i think hank's absolutely right. if cruz takes iowa and you see

new hampshire, unless donald trump has a big firewall in the south, he's gonna have a hard time explaining, and let's not forget his big comment always is that he's a winner. what does he do when he loses or if he loses iowa and new hampshire? >> we always said he's gonna take these stumbles. he takes stumbles all the time, and he seems to stumble up. at the jewish coalition forum, a republican group in washington, he said this week, "i'm a negotiator, just like you folks." they go [gasps] like this. and he says, "is there anyone in this room who doesn't negotiate deals? probably more than any room i've ever spoken to. >> we have people being elected to office -- we just had one in argentina -- who says crazy things, is entirely different, and is like nothing the political system has found before, so could donald trump win? sure. is it likely today? no. will that change? possibly, because the republicans haven't experienced anything but winner-take-all primaries, and they've just changed their system, so now they're as wacky as the democrats usually are before they had winner-take-all or when they're proportional delegates. you know, that's what's going on. >> jeanne, you just said

he is counting on new hampshire. he's, like, spending all his time there. >> he's living there. >> he got endorsed by the newspaper. he got endorsed by real-estate developers. that's his -- i mean, he's down at 4%. he's got to do something there. >> yeah, and i'm not sure that endorsement is really gonna move him up, but it was a big endorsement for him, and that is probably his final stand, and, as you mentioned, he's been living there, and he's been fairly well received, and so i think it's gonna be a matter of, you know, which establishment candidate the new hampshire voters go for, and chris christie is one of them, although, again, not registering the polls in the way he needs to. >> if he doesn't do well there, hank, what happens? you've been talking for a long time about him dropping out. >> drumthwacket is a wonderful place where the governor's mansion is in new jersey. he'll spend a lot of time there enjoying himself, 'cause it's come to an end. >> how 'bout all these other candidates? we have about 30 seconds left. what happens? how long before they start dropping out? trump thinks they should drop out yesterday. >> well, they're gonna start dropping out. on the republican side, i think cruz and rubio and trump, obviously, have a lot of momentum. carson's going down. so, i think cruz and rubio are the ones to watch at this point. >> wipeout after new hampshire. >> mm-hmm. >> you think that's what it's gonna be?

>> you got to come up with dough. if you're losing, you ain't getting any money. >> the line of the day was yesterday -- thursday -- when carson was talking to same jewish group and couldn't pronounce "hamas" and he called it "hummus," and i think that people were just -- >> it's kind of, like, very difficult to do, you know? >> it is very difficult. i like hummus. i don't like hamas. >> [ laughs ] >> thank you both very much. that's gonna do it, on that note, for this edition of "eyewitness news upclose." if you missed any of today's program, you can catch it again on our website, abc7ny. thank you all for watching. on behalf of all of us here at