two words: speed boat. (wife) who are you talking to? nobody! new holiday scratch-off games from the new york lottery. more ways to make life wonderful. >> this is "eyewitness news upclose with diana williams." >> this is a land founded by people seeking religious freedom, but donald trump, if he's president, says he wants to shut down the borders to anyone of the muslim religion. can a proposal of hate help spark a discussion to end hate? a question right now without an answer. one thing is for sure -- despite getting hammered by fellow republicans and by democrats, mr. trump is refusing to back down. >> i've resonated with the people because i tell the truth, and we have a problem in this country, and it's a very dangerous problem and a very big problem, and people don't want to speak out. >> and you know how you make america great again? tell donald trump to go to hell.

stands for, and, more importantly, it's not what this country stands for. >> nonetheless, mr. trump continues to lead in the polls for the republican nomination for president. and if the republicans should somehow sour on him, he has now raised the possibility of a third-party run. good morning, everyone. i'm bill ritter, in for diana. yes, radical muslims are spreading terror and violence in many quarters of the world, but is banning all muslims from coming here the answer? most americans says it is not -- it is not what this country stands for. today we dive deep on this issue. we're gonna have a discussion with a moderate muslim activist and organizer, get her point of view. but, first, mr. trump, who was on our campus this week -- the most controversial week of his most controversial candidacy. the way donald trump takes criticism apparently is by digging in his heels, even deeper. this week, in our studio, trump refusing to back down even an inch on his controversial and unconstitutional plan to stop anyone whose muslim from immigrating, both on "live with kelly and michael" and in an interview with our political

>> you have to say it. look, we're a country of laws. we're a country where you have to behave. you can't knock down buildings. you can't do the kind of things that have been happening in our country -- what happened in california, what happened with the world trade center twice. >> but tons of anger at trump, like at this rally at new york city hall. >> there is nothing left to say about donald trump, except that he is a disgusting, racist demagogue who has no business running for president -- period. >> trump's proposed muslim ban met with nearly universal condemnation in the political world. but in the world of trump supporters, they seem to love the guy. >> it's a short-term problem. i just think it's gonna be good for the safety of the u.s.a. >> meanwhile, trump insists he'll get the republican nomination and wasted not a nanosecond tearing into democratic front-runner hillary clinton. >> hillary clinton doesn't have the strength or the stamina to be president.

she doesn't have the stamina to be president. >> trump predicting he can win not just the nomination, but the presidency. but could he win if he runs as an independent, splitting the conservative vote? trump downplaying that scenario, saying, why would he leave the republican party when he's 20 points ahead? >> i think i'll get the republican nomination. i have great friendships in the republican party. they're a little bit stunned at what's happened, because nobody expected a thing like this to happen, but it's happened. and one of the reasons it's happened is because i tell the truth. >> the hard truth is trump's proposal is likely unconstitutional, and he has no power or ability to make that happen, but it is, nonetheless, causing something of a firestorm here in new york and across the country. but here in new york, in the city's muslim communities, men making their way to midday prayers in queens, saying trump's blaming all muslims for terrorism, and they say that's wrong. a spokesperson for one muslim community says trump's proposed ban is just what extremists want, because it divides all communities and drives some into

>> this is not what the majority of americans think. we know that americans don't hate muslims, so we know that, although these statements are divisive, we know that we can unite. >> mr. bhatti says people should go to a mosque and see what's really being discussed there before they judge muslims. and president obama, in an oval office speech a week ago, calling for national unity. >> if we're to succeed in defeating terrorism, we must enlist muslim communities as some of our strongest allies, rather than push them away through suspicion and hate. that does not mean denying the fact that an extremist ideology has spread within some muslim communities. it's a real problem that muslims must confront without excuse. muslim leaders here and around the globe have to continue working with us to decisively and unequivocally reject the hateful ideology that groups

>> it is, in fact, the world's second largest religion. according to demographers, it's set to become the world's largest by the end of this century. and, yet, so many people are defining it by the smallest sliver of radical islamists, and that gives them even more power. joining us to talk about all this and much more is sahar alsahlani, a board member of the council on american-islamic relations in new york. sahar, thank you for joining us. >> well, thank you for having me. >> well, my pleasure. i want to get your take on all this, and let's just start with mr. trump's proposal. when you first heard it, what was your reaction? >> well, when i first heard it, it didn't surprise me, because mr. trump has not left -- it doesn't seem to me he's left any minority unattacked. i mean, obviously, he has a chronic pattern. he started with hispanics. he's attacked the black lives matter movement; a couple weeks ago, made fun of a disabled reporter. so it's not surprising that he would continue this pattern. one of the things that really surprises me the most is when he talked about banning the muslim

if he knew the history of muslims in the united states -- my arab heritage -- you know, culturally, i'm arabic. but my muslim heritage -- we were not immigrants. we were slaves that were brought over from africa. those were the first muslims that came, back in the 14th, 15th, and 16th century. so we've had a long history of islam in america. thomas jefferson, you know, invited muslims to come and have iftar with him. he had a copy of the qur'an. we had muslims involved in the revolutionary war, in the civil war, in the civil rights movement. so we've been involved in the tapestry of this country for years. i came here -- people often growing up would say, "my family came here on the mayflower. go home." and i would kind of say, "well, i came here on a plane with a student visa. i was a baby, and my mom came to do her phd." you know, sometimes you kind of wonder about -- >> you come from iraq, right? >> i come from iraq originally. >> and you grew up where? >> i grew up in pittsburgh,

so he doesn't understand the contribution or how entangled we are with the history of american society. >> so, how have we gotten to this point? i mean, you know, there are terrorists who attacked this country. there are terrorists right now at work. and yet moderate muslims like yourself -- and most muslims -- are getting the blame for all... how did we get to this point? >> i think when somebody attacks another person, it comes from unresolved pain. i think it comes from fear of the unknown. i think it comes from not knowing your neighbor. i think it comes from not doing a lot of internal work, and it comes from perhaps him not understanding his own spirituality and his own comrades in the american society. >> every religion, every nationality, every race has its extremes on the political spectrum.

how do you, as an activist, deal with the radical extreme, which has sparked fear in a lot of people? how do you deal with that? what do you say to people who say, "well, you know, now i'm afraid of muslims"? >> well, i do a lot of work in the interfaith arena. i grew up in catholic schools. i grew up in a jewish neighborhood in pittsburgh. so i've been part of the interfaith pluralistic society. and what i have learned is that all religions are road maps to justice. you know, all the scriptures are road maps to justice. and the essence of all faiths is attaining for a peaceful society in this world. >> so, how do you get people who are now taking an extreme position to listen to what you just said? how does that happen? >> you know, everybody, when they are lost or when they are in a community that's perhaps facing oppression or facing poverty or facing relocation or migration or facing lack of

they're gonna react. and you don't know the context or the situation that's gonna drive them to extremes, whether it's in ferguson or whether it's in iraq or whether it's in, you know, a lower-income neighborhood, or whether their lack of education. you don't know what drives a person internally to seek, to go to these kind of recruitment places. but what we can do is we can look within our own faith to see how we can try to cooperate within each other to solve these problems together. >> you know there are many people who say, "well, until moderate muslims take up the fight and help stop the radicals within their religion, it's gonna continue." what do you say to them? and are you doing that? >> well, i think we've been doing that for a very, very long time. i think, at times, kind of diminishes the work that we've been doing to contribute to society. most muslims that i know are involved already in the public sector. i mean, you cannot go to a hospital or to a university or

transportation and not find a muslim, either at the highest level or at the lowest level. i think most religious organizations do have their extremists, whether it's the kkk -- i mean, that certainly does not represent christianity, as much as they, you know, wail and say, "we're christian." >> they want to say they do. >> exactly. so it's up to the person to get to know their neighbors and understand the other religions. >> well, i hope people listen to you this morning, and i thank >> oh, thank you. >> all right, sahar. thank you so much and good luck to you. when we come back, we're gonna continue our discussion on the trump immigration firestorm. will it help or hurt him and what about a third-party run?

>> welcome back to "upclose." it's hard to remember any other time in history when one presidential primary candidate has thrown as many political stink bombs into a race as has new yorker donald trump and still managed to lead the pack. the man seems to thrive on getting slammed by the public and still leading the pack. our political analyst this morning -- jeanne zaino, political science professor at iona college and n.y.u. have you ever seen anything like this? >> not that i can remember. no, it has been quite a race, and we're not even in 2016 yet, which is the shocking part of this. >> trump said on the piece we had earlier with dave evans -- to dave evans -- he said, "you know, republicans are stumped by this because they have never seen anyone like me." you have sat on this chair for months and said, "it might not last, it might not last." but you've changed your tune the this is lasting. >> it has lasted a lot longer than i thought it would. now, do i think he is going to

i still don't think he's gonna be the nominee. >> why not? >> because i think the republican party knows that it is a big risk to put him out there as the nominee. at this point, republicans have a good sense that they are not going to win the white house, and what do they have to do? they have to watch those down-ballot races. and their fear is if donald trump is at the top of that ticket, no republicans or half of the republicans don't come out and vote, what happens to the senate? do they lose it? probably. what happens to the house? they probably lose it. and let's not forget -- besides the white house, republicans dominate in every other field -- local, state, and legislature. they don't want to lose that. so that's their big concern right now. that's why you heard paul ryan come out so strongly this week. >> and lindsey graham. >> and lindsey graham. donald trump. >> absolutely. i mean, you've got senators running for re-election on the republican side who are now in fear of losing. and, you know, they are not gonna let this happen. so, you know, could he get the nomination? absolutely. but is it likely? probably not, because the party is going to fight. >> so, while he is winning in

numbers than anybody else right now -- 36% -- no one is 20% within that -- there's so many negatives. you have two out of three americans in a general election right now saying they don't trust this guy. >> yeah, absolutely. so, you look at the latino vote. if he keeps going this way, hillary clinton can likely get 3/4 of the latino vote. there is no way the republicans win with those kind of numbers against them. and we also know that when you attack one minority group, other minority groups fall off the wayside. and so we've seen that. we saw that last time around with mitt romney. so it's likely that they are gonna have trouble attracting point. and so you cannot win in this country demographically if your appeal is to white voters only. >> we saw the report this week that the republican national committee higher-ups were having a secret dinner or whatever it was. maybe it wasn't so secret, 'cause people found out about it. talking about this very possibility, that there's a bifurcated or a divided convention this summer. tell me what that means -- a divided convention, a brokered convention.

they're denying that that's what they were talking about. it came up, but so what that would mean is in order to win the nomination, you have to get the majority of the delegates. if you go into that convention and, on the first ballot, you don't have a majority of delegates, you are technically in a brokered convention. and that means that you're gonna to second, third, fourth, fifth ballots, and many of those delegates, depending on state laws, will be up for grabs. and so there will be some negotiating going on, and you're gonna see back and forth between who can attract and put together a coalition and get the majority of those delegates. so, you know, we haven't seen that since 1952. so, i'm not gonna say it's gonna happen, 'cause it hasn't happened for a long time. >> and they don't want that. >> they don't want it to happen. but they also don't want to, again, lose the senate, lose the house, and lose their momentum at the state and local level. so this is a huge concern for them. and if it comes to that, and it's looking like it could -- if it comes to the fact that you have got cruz and trump going into the convention with the most delegates but not a majority, that's very likely something that could happen. >> does it open the possibility of some sort of white knight coming in and riding in on a horse? >> well, yeah, there's been talk

paul ryan -- could they put a mitt romney on there? you know, anybody to keep them afloat at the legislative level. the other interesting thing, though, is there's a school of thought which says they may be best served to push trump out of the party, have him run as an independent, because he will attract republicans, they'll attract republicans. more republicans go out to vote. they don't get the white house, but they maintain the lower-ballot races. >> absolutely. >> there's a lot of things they have to think about. >> all "what if" right now, but the lack of coattails is a very interesting point. jeanne zaino, thanks a lot, as always. just ahead, corruption and albany -- words that go together like bacon and eggs, bagels and cream cheese, sheldon and silver. will the corruption charges against top democratic and republican leaders in the legislature finally clean up the state capital?

who hope they do -- next. >> welcome back to "upclose." corruption in albany -- yes, they have tried to get rid of it for decades. governor cuomo, running for re-election -- and election, originally -- saying he would stop it. he hasn't. and now one of the most powerful democrats in state is a federal felon. could spend the rest of his life in prison. sheldon silver, once the speaker of the assembly, convicted on corruption charges. and former senate majority leader -- republican dean skelos -- convicted in his corruption trial. is it time to limit the outside income of legislators? i sat down recently with two reformers -- zephyr teachout, fordham university law professor; and john kaehny, the executive director of reinvent albany, a group that advocates for a more ethical government. i asked them if we'll finally see now some reform in the state capital. >> the groundwork has been laid by activists, but now the general public is just fed up. so i think in the short term, we can see a ban on outside income.

even the governor, who i don't agree with on many things, is advocating for that. and then i think we have to move towards a public-financing system. the private financing system is basically legalized bribery. so we have a lot of very legal activity happening in albany right now that looks a lot like what sheldon silver is going away for. >> isn't this a little, though, like the latest gun violence, the latest gun massacre? people get all hot and bothered about gun control and everything else and say, "we got to do something," and then nothing happens. people have been talking, john, about, you know, corruption in albany for decades. >> 50 years ago, new york city was more corrupt than albany, than the state government was. and people would, you know, pull out their hair and say, "nothing can ever change here. we'll always be the center of corruption." and new york city was synonymous with political corruption, and now it's not. now it's considered one of the cleanest city governments in the u.s. things can change. we're not stuck forever in this hellhole of corruption which we have right how.

shelly silver's conviction and him likely going to prison, unless he is victorious in some appeal he might ask for, then when would it ever change? >> well, there's this great saying. you're saying, "look, we're never gonna change anything." everything always seems impossible until it happens. so it's not impossible. i do think what we're gonna see, though, and we're already seeing is some resistance on those in albany. so i don't think we can count on albany cleaning itself just because people are angry about sheldon silver. i do think it's gonna take actual in-person -- people going to their lawmaker's office, saying, "this is not okay." and another thing that i think is important is to recognize this isn't just sort of a crime that hurt nobody. the evidence shows that sheldon silver was taking illegal and legal money from luxury developers who, basically, totally gutted new york city's -- silver was taking money from luxury developers who radically increased the cost of living in

>> you heard zephyr talk about limiting outside income. how many state legislators -- legislatures -- have rules that limit the outside income of elected people? >> some have rules limiting them, but in new york, the reform groups and many editorial boards want to see a congressional-style cap on outside income, which congress has had now since the 1970s, which would restrict your outside income to 15% of the highest salary in the legislature. >> would it mean raising the salaries of legislators? it probably will. >> well, it could, it might. but what we know right now from a big study that my group and new york public interest research group did earlier this year was that only about a third of state senators and a fourth of state assembly members would be affected at all by a congressional-style cap on outside income, because most legislators don't get that much outside income. so what we're looking at is

outside ban but would significantly reduce outside income and improve disclosure and transparency, so we would know where people are getting their money, and that really strikes at the center of both the silver and the skelos trial, which is both of them have received significant amounts of money through the law firms that they work for. >> you'd think that these jobs would be full-time jobs, that they wouldn't have time to do all this other stuff. >> yeah, i mean, this is -- >> shouldn't they be full-time jobs? >> yeah, they should be full-time jobs. this is a really basic principle. you can't serve two masters. the idea that you are sort of serving the interests of new yorkers while you're getting on the side a lot of money from private interests -- that's common sense. >> one of the appeals, though, to these -- to the billionaire candidates who come along -- the bloombergs, the trumps, jon corzine -- they could make that argument, and they did all the time when they ran, and mr. trump certainly is now, that "i'm not beholden to anybody. i'm funding this campaign. i don't need anyone else's money.

you agree with it or not, it's my opinion. i'm not being lobbied by someone." argument. it's not a democracy -- you know, the basic idea that anybody can run and we actually all have the capacity to have our voice heard. but i think you're absolutely right, that the reason people are drawn to that is they're so fed up with illegal bribery. >> so there's not that much controversy on the academic or think-tank or good-government group side, as to what needs to be done. people agree that there needs to be restrictions on outside income or a complete full-time legislature. more agreement on outside-income restrictions than full-time. some people think there should be a "citizen" legislature, but we like to think of it more in terms of reducing outside conduit for bribery. that's what we're seeing now in...silver case. closing what's called the llc loophole, which is unlimited -- basically unlimited business

that needs to happen. there's zero disagreement on side. and then making state spending completely transparent so that the roughly $3 billion in discretionary funds, in money that the governor and the legislature gets to pick and choose who that goes to -- that needs to be fully disclosed. we don't know -- we the public do not know where about $3 billion in state spending is problem. >> a lot of money, too. >> and, also, to professor teachout's point -- public financing of campaigns, which has worked terrifically well in new york city to reduce corruption and create a much, much more diverse city council, would work tremendously well for the whole state. >> so you think the time is right, like it's never been before. and coming out of the other end of this tunnel, you think there will be action? >> well, i think a lot depends on andrew cuomo. and he ran -- you have to remember -- in 2010 on an

clean up albany -- and he has lost almost all credibility as an anti-corruption reformer in the last five years. >> he can't ignore this. >> and you've seen, even in his immediate response, there's a slight effort to back away, saying, there's no appetite. you know, using the passive language. he shouldn't be able to ignore this. this really is a test of whether he's gonna have any credibility as an anti-corruption governor. statements. it means using the extraordinary power of the governorship in new york to say this is a priority, we have to push this through now. and if he does that, i think the public will respond. but right now, i don't think he can get away with just a few sentences. >> the governor will have huge, huge public support and support in editorial boards and from journalists who cover these issues if he becomes a champion on reforming albany. people will get up, and they will cheer for him, and that's not what's happening.

you ran against governor cuomo. >> yes. >> what's that experience like for you? what did you learn? you want to do it again? >> oh, i loved it. the only sad part is that i didn't win. but i -- you know, i've been writing and thinking and talking about government and politics for a long time, and i've been involved in politics, but i had no idea how inspiring it is to actually get out there and talk to the organizers in all parts of the state. so i do plan to run for something again. we'll see what that is. but in the meantime, there's nothing like traveling the state and the city to make you fall in love with it more. and i think one of the real sadnesses -- there's real sorrow that comes along with this corruption -- is that we are a state that builds things. we built the erie canal. we built the m.t.a. we're the leader. and as we've become more corrupt, we've just stopped being leaders. we've stopped building. and so i actually think -- you're talking about what we need to make new york more attractive -- that you can't

new york that we all want of corruption. >> good point. we'll end it there. except, of course, if you want to disclose here and break some news of what office you'd run for. >> not saying yet. >> our discussion with zephyr teachout and john kaehny about corruption in albany. and on that note, that will do it for this edition of "eyewitness news upclose." if you happened to have missed any of today's program, you can catch it again on our website -- abc7ny. thank you all for watching. i'm bill ritter. and for all of here at