ralph natale: of the philadelphia mafia. rosemary connors: with chilling frankness, ralph natale details his days running the philly mob. the murders, the takeover of atlantic city, his mentor angelo bruno, and natale's last conversation with union boss jimmy hoffa. ralph: i could smell the dampness of the dirt of the grave when i looked at him. male announcer: nbc10 @issue starts now. rosemary: good morning, i'm rosemary connors for nbc10 @issue. ralph natale led the philly mob back in the mid to late 90s. he's the highest ranking mafia member to turn federal witness, testifying against reputed mob boss joey merlino. natale keeps his whereabouts close to the vest, so this morning, he will be talking with us by phone

about his life in the mafia. also joining the conversation in studio is dan pearson. dan is the executive producer of "i married a mobster" on the discovery channel. he's also the coauthor of the new book "last don standing," which profiles the life of ralph natale. dan, thank you for being with us. dan pearson: well, thank you for having me. rosemary: and ralph, you're with us by phone? ralph: yes, i am. rosemary: so, ralph, you were a government witness. you keep your whereabouts secret, but you are not in the witness protection program? ralph: i've never been in the witness protection program, never. rosemary: as i mentioned, you keep your whereabouts close to the vest. what can you tell us about your life now? ralph: well, i'm living pleasantly with my wife. and i'm at an ease with everything, and i'm happy to answer any questions because everything i've put down in the book and i told dan and larry is true.

rosemary: ralph, in the book and especially towards the end, dan, you write about this, he has a growing family. in a lot of ways, now he's seen as a grandfather and a great-grandfather. ralph: yes, i am. rosemary: so, you consider yourself a family man? ralph: i am. well, actually, i've never been married to anybody but my wife, and they're all my children. and i have 10 grandchildren and 11 great-grandchildren, and they're all fine, and my children are fine, they're all educated. they got nothing to do with my other life at all. dan: reading what i read, inquired about ralph, they didn't match. ralph's name garnered respect, fear, and loyalty. so, when we got together, i saw this guy, who--you know, it wasn't for me to judge this man's life,

but what i did want to know was how--was the beginning, middle, and his new beginning, because today is his new beginning. rosemary: i mean, ralph, you talk as though you are a changed man, but you've told me that you are not remorseful for the murders and crimes you've committed. ralph: i'm still the same man i was. today--i realized as a young boy what i was capable of, and didn't feel one ounce of sympathy for anybody that tried to push me when i was a youngster, or when a man, somebody that threatened my life. and i took action, and i'm not remorseful. i'm happy my family's doing well, i'm doing well, and i'm talking to you. that's what counts. rosemary: dan, you describe ralph in the book as a killer. in fact, that's his title. dan: well, you know, the way i look at is this. when you--when you look back at where he came from and what

people like himself come from, he came from a discriminatory background. now, in the 40s, 50s, the italians, if you had vowel at the end of your name, you were looked upon a certain way. so, maybe the opportunities that were afforded other, if they had been afforded to ralph and people like ralph, maybe he would have changed, went a different way. but ralph is who ralph is, and he's unabashed. and for that, i respect him. i may not agree with him, but i respect him. rosemary: ralph, on that note, you know, you say you took no pleasure--in the book, you know, you tell dan you took no pleasure in killing. but in reading it, you do get a sense that there's a pride almost in your work. ralph: i never took pleasure out of hurting anyone, but if somebody had to be hurt and there was a problem, i did. and i came home, and i resumed my family life and where i live. and if it was again, i'd do it--i'd do it again,

and do it over again. but now, i'm 82 years old, i'm happy, i'm happy with my wife. we celebrated, oh my god, 64, 64 years of marriage, of lasted marriage. and that's our life. rosemary: sure. many see mob culture as glorified murder. is that a fair statement? ralph: well, there's a difference between glorified murder and killing. when people have to get killed in the mob, most of the time it's warranted under our rules. it's not glorified. when they talk about glorifying a murder, they're not killers, they're murderers. a murderer is a different man than a killer. and that's how i've always done it in my life as a young male, man, until now. dan: well, i sort of see it as the same way a fortune 500 company lets go of someone in a firing. they fire people in a different way, except that their firing was a finality.

ralph: right. rosemary: well, and against--and against the law, let's not forget that. dan: yes, it is all against the law. it is all against the law. but i think that in the way they've come about their lives as immigrants, they had to set their own rules, so it was sort of a government within a government. so, this is how immigrants have always been--come about. so, you know, i don't condone it. you know, it's against the law, but i understand it. ralph: well, rosemary, in the book, it's in one of the chapters, "love and devotion." there's a couple pages here, i explain angelo bruno. and i explain my mentor, john de tullio, who was known as skinny razer. in that two pages, it will explain how i felt, and what i was, and what they were. it fully explains it, but they have to--you have to read this and read it thoroughly.

then you'll understand who i am and what i became. and i live my life without remorse, without regret. and that's how i feel, and i'm glad that dan explained it, but that's my life. i did what i had to do. rosemary: ralph, you also talk about your upbringing. and dan, you write about this, and the role your parents and your upbringing played in your future life. ralph: well, what i--the way i grew up was without love and without feeling. i'm not making this--and this is not the--i found out early in life that if you don't show who you are, you're going to be in trouble the rest of your life, ralphie. and that's how it began. and i show it, and i felt it, and i show what i did, and i rose up with people. and yes, i worked, i had a job in a bar, i took over unions. but i met some great people along the way,

i bought some beautiful homes for my wife and family, and the last home we had was in california, and it was beautiful. and maybe that's where i'm going to end up soon, in california. rosemary: are you giving us a hint as to where you're whereabouts may be, or soon be? ralph: well, somewhere on the west coast. rosemary: ralph, you did two stints in prison. the first time, you did not testify against other members of the mob. ralph: please remember that. please remember that, rosemary. i was--excuse me, i didn't mean to interrupt you, but i had to answer. when i was in prison, they gave me--out of 2 sentences, it was 27 years. my--the time that--according to the prison guideline rules, i was only supposed to be given 52 to 80 months on all those crimes that they convicted me of.

but they gave me 27 years. and that's why they called me before the senate investigating committee in 1982. and in 1982, they offered me, "we--if you give us the right answers, we will reduce your sentence, and you'll be home in 3 months." at that time, i only had 3 years in on the 27 year sentence. i said, "you got the wrong man." and i said it openly on c-span. and i told the senator, senator rutland from maine, he was getting upset that i wasn't giving him the right answers. he answered--he asked me about angelo bruno, nicky scarfo, and of course tony accardo. i could have put away all of them and everybody else instantly, half of new york and half of chicago, and i refused. and that's part of the record. and i did my time, and i came home.

rosemary: sixteen years, correct, the first time in prison? ralph: that's the first, yes. dan: you know, what i noticed in researching the story is that ralph was caught in between two generations. he's caught in between--ralph was born in 1935. he's caught in between people born in the 1890s, early 1900s, the people he looked to, the people he learned things from. then he comes home and he's dealing with people born in the late 50s and early 60s. one was a secret society, the other was a, "me, me, me, look at me," situation. rosemary: we're talking about obviously what led up to his second time in prison, and the second time, testifying against other people, including joey merlino. dan: ralph can explain that better than i can. rosemary: ralph? dan: there you go, ralph. ralph: okay, it's a simple explanation because it is the truth. when i was arrested, i--well, actually,

i was--at the time that they put me back in prison, i was violating my parole. i went back in, and i looked to joe merlino. i said, "joe, you take over and make sure--you got to make one thing, because we made this a long time ago when you were in prison with me," in my first bid. but he'd went home, he only had a short bid then. i said, "we made it," we shook hands, "you tell all the fellas that when i come home, we'll straighten this problem out in the city of philadelphia because i'm going to take it. and from that moment on, if i have a problem and i go away, you have to take care of my wife and family. and if you ever go away, your girl, your wife, your mother, i'll take care of them." we shook hands and we kissed each other on the cheek. now, after that was done, when i was--my wife who i call every month, "did any stop by, my friends?" "nobody, not even a dime."

and when i came home, they were living in their mother's homes and driving somebody else's car. when i left 45 months later, they were driving bmws, mercedes, and they all had homes. and they sent me absolutely nothing. so, it was my duty as a man to my family now, my real family, to tell them, "oh yeah? i'm going to see them in the courtroom, and i'm going to call them what they are." and i used the word "punks," and i called them that every day i was on the stand, 14 days. and that's what they were, and that what they still are. and i have no shame, no nothing. i lived my life as a real man, and whenever it's my time to die, i'll die like a man. rosemary: we'll pick up this story in just a moment, don't go away. coming up, we'll talk more to ralph natale about why he's speaking about his life now, and if he's worried about the repercussions.

ralph: not a word in a year when i was away. not a dime to come to my wife, imagine that. that's what they did to me, and that's why i'm here and i'm telling my story. i'm not in a program. honey nut cheerios

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ralph: and joey and i made a vow to one another, in the course of this era, if i get killed, or if i get put away for life, or anything, you make sure you take care of my wife, my family. rosemary: we just heard former philly mob boss, ralph natale, talking about a jailhouse conversation he says he had with reputed mob boss joey merlino. natale's joining us on the phone from an undisclosed location. he was a mobster turned government witness, but says he is not in the witness protection program. also with us is dan pearson, he's the executive producer of "i married a mobster" on the discovery channel. thank you both for being with us. dan, of course, you're also the coauthor of the new book

"last don standing" about the life of ralph natale. so ralph, i want to pick up where we left off about joey merlino, and that sound bite we just heard from you sort of ties into it. with this book, you are openly calling joey merlino a punk. are you worried about stirring up bad blood with this new conversation? are you worried about your safety or your family's safety? ralph: i'm not worried about anybody or anything. i never did and i never will. what he did, he did. it's the truth. why should anyone be upset about it? and if they are, shame on them. rosemary: ralph, you told me earlier once that you believe you are going to heaven. ralph: well, when i say going to heaven, i don't know what kind of heaven i'm going to go to, but i'm certainly not going to serve my time in hell if there is a hell. i really don't--i don't consider this or that because when i die, i die. i have no--i lived 82 years.

that's a great, great 82 years. if i go tonight, i go. rosemary: if somebody comes after you tonight? ralph: what's that? rosemary: if someone comes after you tonight? ralph: they better be able to shoot good. rosemary: dan, i know you wanted to talk about atlantic city. dan: yes. ralph? ralph: yes? dan: can you explain to them what the three don bond was? ralph: okay, i'll settle it real fast. word got to carlo gambino through his sons lawyers that they were trying to raise money on wall street and different places in new york because atlantic city was going to put it on the voting thing, the next election, and they were going to pass the gambling thing for atlantic county. so, everybody got excited. at that time, carlo sent for ang, and ang went over to see him, up in new york. they decided they were going to--because it belonged to ang

in his area, but everything that belonged to angelo bruno was partly with carlo gambino, because of him, and they shared their revenue. so, when they heard this here and there, and when carlo heard it, he said, "we got to do what we got to do. and we're going to use that young man that worked for you that has killed upon your--killed upon your request, as i know, and he has done everything for you, and he's got his own union. we're going to--we're going to send him to chicago to see tony accardo," whom nobody could go see him. but they said, "we're going to send him. and when he goes there, he's going to be given the means and the way to make atlantic city ours, and he's going to take over that union with the union that he already had in south jersey." and that's as simple as it was. i went to chicago, i met tony accardo,

i met everybody in chicago. i came home, everybody was satisfied, and we made atlantic city. rosemary: there are some people out there, some critics, i suppose, who say that you were not truly the boss, that maybe you were an underboss fronting as the boss. what is your reaction to that? ralph: who said? well, first of all, i was never an underboss. i was a boss. dan: well, the fbi says he was the boss. the u.s. government says he was the boss. and the judge that sentenced him said he was the boss. rosemary: dan, it seems as though part of your intrigue, a big part of your intrigue with ralph natale, is his relationship--was his relationship with jimmy hoffa. dan: well, you know, it was. i asked him about jimmy hoffa. he pulls out a picture, the only picture confirming jimmy hoffa's relationship with the mafia was a picture of ralph and jimmy hoffa in washington dc. ralph: he made one mistake in his life when he decided that he wanted to take back the teamsters.

i knew he was headed for the great--for the ground. i knew he was going to--and i could have smelled that damn ground of a grave while i was talking to him. and i tried to talk him out of it, he said, "no, i got to do what i got to do." rosemary: ralph, thank you for joining us, we appreciate it. ralph: thank you for asking. rosemary: yep. ralph: and it's been a pleasure, my pleasure to get a little bit of this off of my mind. rosemary: when we come right back, we'll hear more from dan pearson, who says he may seem like an unlikely mob aficionado, but not if you knew his background.

by the time the drugs rannd wout, i was addicted.. it happened so fast. i ended up on the streets, where the drugs are cheaper and easier to get. i was a full blown heroin addict, selling my soul to get high. when i realized i needed help i didn't know where to go. but i got help and you can too. you're not alone. help is within reach. call 844 reach nj or visit reachnj.gov. the road to recovery starts now. rosemary: we're back with dan pearson. dan is the executive producer of "i married a mobster" on the discovery channel. he's also the coauthor of the new book "last don standing," which is about the life of ralph natale. tell us what started the project. dan: it was the peeling back of the onion of american history and the mafia, and how intertwined they were.

it really grabbed me. atlantic city, jimmy hoffa, tip o'neill, ed hanley, the unions. it was--it never stopped. so, i'm a history buff, and that's what really intrigued me. rosemary: you also grew up around this lifestyle. dan: yeah, it's kind of funny. i was an abused child, in the streets as a child, and i helped this young man, another kid who was getting his sneakers stolen from him, a tiny kid. and i helped him, we became friends after that, and i wound up living in his house. and his father was a very well-known gentlemen. and i do call him a gentlemen because he was a gentlemen to me. but whatever he did outside, he did outside. through the kindness of his heart, he took care of a child, and a child that didn't look like him. so, you know, through that, i grew up around a bunch

of different people. so, i learned the inner workings of different scenarios. rosemary: this friend's father was involved with the mafia, to be clear. dan: this friend's father was an underboss in one of the five families, yes. i always knew exactly what it wasn't. there came a time in life where i had to make a decision which--what was the way i was going to go? and that wasn't the way i wanted to go, you know? so, i made my past pay for my future, and this is what i write and sell. rosemary: you touch on a very interesting dynamic because there are people who will hear ralph's interview and say, "this man is a coldblooded killer." dan: you only know what you know if you haven't been exposed to other things. so, if your hero is a guy on the corner in a suit, then that's who your hero is. if you don't know anything other than that, that's who you aspire to be. that's who he knew.

he knew the guys on the corner with the flashy cars, the this, that, and the other. remember, he's a child of the depression. and he also is a child of discrimination. so, i understand discrimination because my color is my scarlet letter when i walk in certain rooms. so, by me being able to express these opinions and the lifestyle of these folks, maybe ralph did it with me because he was thinking outside the box. we're a different duo. rosemary: dan pearson, thank you very much for joining us in studio. dan: thank you so much. rosemary: absolutely.

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