access.wgbh.org >> from washington, the mclaughlin group, the american original. for over three decades, the sharpest minds, best sources, hardest talk. >> issue one. let the debates begin. >> i cannot say i have to respect the person that if it's not me the person that wins. if i do win, and i'm leading by quite a bit, that's what i want to do. i can totally make that pledge if i'm the nominee i will pledge i would not run as an independent. >> you know, whatever your issue, your cause, the festering problem you hoped would be resolved, the political class has failed you. that's just a fact. that's what donald trump taps into. i would also just say this. since he has changed his mind

on amnesty, on health care, and on abortion i would just ask what are the principles by which he will govern? . >> the first debates of the 2016 presidential election took place thursday in cleveland, ohio, sponsored by fox news and facebook. in the primetime debate, the top 10 republican contenders as determined by their standings in five national polls faced off against each other. seven more gop candidates who came in below the threshold engaged in an earlier debate at 5:00 p.m. the gop lineup this year includes nine governors and ex-governors, five senators or former senators, and three political outsiders. the nine governors are -- jeb bush, scott walker, mike huckabee, chris christie, john kasich, rick perry, bobby jindal, george pataki, and jim gilmore. the first five made the cut for the top 10 debate. collectively the governors

of the u.s. population, some 97 million people. the five senators are -- ted cruz, marco rubio, rand paul, rick santorum, and lindsey graham. cruz, rubio, and paul made the top 10 cut. senators are representing 21% of the u.s. population. then there are the political outsiders doctor-donald trump, ben carson, and carly fiorina the first two of whom were in the top 10 debate. measured by their standing in the polls, the three republican front-runners are donald trump, jeb bush, and scott walker. the democratic presidential debates are not yet scheduled but are expected to kick off in iowa this fall. question, were there any stand outs and stand out moments in these debates? pat? >> well, john, i think everybody is going to focus in on donald trump and it was a very rough, tough night for him.

did was he hardened and solidified his base and may have added to it because he was in a battle with fox news, megyn kelly, and back and forth. so i think by and large he helped himself or held his own. as for the outsiders coming along, i think john kasich clearly was a media favorite there in terms of how he ended his remarks. i think he came on very strong. so i think he's going to help himself. i think marco rubio has helped himself. he was crisper, stronger, and more mature than he's been. so i think for the first what they call the little table, in the first debate -- >> the kids' table. >> everybody is unanimous that carly fiorina won it. but i thought rick perry -- i watched both debates -- i thought rick perry did a good job. >> i thought he did a fine job at the kids' table. >> yeah. fiorina was a stand out in the

early debate which was in a cavernous hole without any audience and she really has very striking poise and a lot of hard line statements that go over big with the republican party. but the main debate was staged by fox news and conservatives are now all up in an uproar over the fact that the fox news commentators asked really tough questions. i think fox really wanted everybody to know they're a legitimate news network. they weren't going to let anybody off the hook. they went at trump initially very hard. asking for a show of hands as to who, they wanted everybody to pledge allegiance to the republican party and he refused to do it. at least he's consistent. i think there are a lot of traditional republicans who are kind of horrified that if he doesn't win the nomination he would run third party and in fact hand the presidency to hillary clinton. in the context of that phone call he had with president clinton, sort of giving him the

lay of the land and telling him country. i mean, i don't think that goes over well with the republican base, but trump is a phenomenon. it's not over yet. he's a real sugar high i think for the country just watching him perform. >> i think that, you know, megyn kelly, chris wallace, if you watch the show that's what they do. they are tough questioners. i think it was a very i think carly fiorina really stormed it. i think you'll see her rising significantly in the polls in the coming days. in the second debate, the primetime, i tend to think scott walker pulled it off mainly because scott walker is already popular with conservatives, right? the debate is not just in and of itself. scott walker made a couple good lines on foreign policy where he's been weak before. he did enough there. i think marco rubio, again, the youthful charisma. >> what was walker's first one liner? >> i think it was talking about, when he talked about foreign policy and america's position with our allies in the middle east.

china know more about hillary clinton's e-mails than congress. >> that was a line that played well with the conservative base. >> that's a good one. you like that? >> well, yeah. it was funny. i want to distance myself from the notion that these were tough questions. they were very good questions. they were well focused. they did their best to keep these politicians from wriggling out from under them. donald trump has some cheek. i know it's hard to believe. but donald trump has some cheek and gall to get mad at the journalist for quoting back to him his own quotes and saying did you really mean to say this? that's not a hard question. he turned it into an opportunity to beat up on trump. >> you saw republicans beating up on fox. i thought i'd never see that. they got away with it. >> i think the moderators were immoderate. they really went after trump.

you're reading all these trashy comments he made from long ago. they're getting into the debates. they are trying to influence, should the moderators and tv be trying to influence the outcome of the republican primaries? because they were. >> who did the best job swinging a tough question? the answer is kasich. when asked whether he would oppose gay marriage if one of his children were gay, he fired back that he just had been to a friend's gay wedding, knocking that question out of the ballpark. >> yes. it was a very good answer. very pointed. i think he won a lot of new fans. >> oh, yes he did. >> most people in the country don't know kasich. i come from ohio originally and i met him in washington. >> you think he'll get the republican nomination? >> i think he'll get the v.p. nomination. >> two campaigns here. one is who is going to be the outlier candidate, right now it's trump. the other is who is going to be trump? everybody thinks it's going to be bush. he's got the money. but kasich rose in that

category and he is a candidate to be a finalist to go against trump. >> he did it with a velvet knife. he said that trump has struck a nerve in the country and we all it. >> when we come back, the

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>> issue two. the terror debate. >> i will make no apologies ever for protecting the lives and the safety of the american people. we have to give more tools to our folks to be able to do that, not fewer. and then trust those people and oversee them to do it the right way. as president that is exactly what i'll do. >> i want to collect more records from terrorists but less records from innocent americans. >> that is a completely ridiculous answer. i want to collect more records from terrorists but less records from other people. how are you supposed to know, megyn? what are you supposed to -- >> you support the amendment. you get a warrant. get a judge to sign a warrant. >> question. is chris christie correct about rand paul's stance on n.s.a. surveillance? i ask you, tom? >> yeah, i think he is. there is a controversy there with the n.s.a. the difficulty with what you're dealing with now especially since edward snowden, this is a fact, the groups like the

followers have learned to adapt to the mechanisms of surveillance. so really what you have to do is have a capacity on the part of the n.s.a. to gather data portfolio which is not personal information and then when someone goes to a judge and says, the f.b.i. says can we monitor this person, you do it that way. i think rand paul is trying to appeal to a certain constituency in the republican party which i tend to think should be in the republican party. >> this is not actually a partisan issue or shouldn't be. this goes back to the founding of the republic, the argument over safety vs. security and the idea of, i'm sorry, freedom vs. security. and what was it ben franklin said? >> what did he say? >> those who are willing to give up essential liberty deserve not security or something like that. >> this is a debate that goes on and on. we shouldn't have absolute

i think gathering up meta information about people can be a benign activity but it's one that frightens a lot of folks. i think rand paul -- >> rand paul's initial appeal was that he spoke to younger people who didn't want big brother watching them. but the republican party has gotten so hawkish that his positions are kind of -- >> okay. hold on. more christie-paul. >> listen, senator. when you're sitting in a subcommittee just blowing hot air about this you can say things like that. when you're responsible for protecting the lives of the american people, then what you need to do is make sure that -- >> here's the problem, governor. you fundamentally misunderstand the bill of rights. every time you did a case, you got a warrant from a judge. i'm talking about searches without warrants indiscriminately of all americans' records. that's what i fought to end.

i don't trust president obama with our records. i know you gave him a big hug and if you want to give him a big hug again go right ahead. >> who do you trust more on counterterrorism, rand paul or chris christie? eleanor clift. >> you didn't play the rest of that bite which is when christie comes back and says, hugs are of the family members of the people who died on 9/11. i think christie won that exchange. >> i think both of them did. christie is appealing to the security segment. that's a majority. however, rand paul's guys are the libertarians to whom this is a vitally important issue. this fourth amendment. and i think he was very outspoken and tough in defending that part of the party. i think they both appealed to their bases and they both did well. >> a little substance -- >> a good, hot exchange. >> i think chris christie will come out better with more republican voters from that because again with the security issue moving up the ladder he will seem to take, again, i think eleanor is right that the

party is more in christie's pocket than in terms of -- >> issue three. mass o.j. any. >> you called women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals. your twitter account -- >> only rosie o'donnell. [laughter] >> no, it wasn't. your twitter account -- for the record it was well beyond rosie o'donnell. >> yes i'm sure it was. >> your twitter account has several disparaging comments about women's looks. you once told a contestant on "celebrity apprentice" it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees. does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president and how will you answer the charge from hillary clinton who is likely to be the democratic nominee that you are part of the war on women? >> i think the big problem this

country has is being politically correct. [cheering] i've been challenged by so many people and i don't frankly have time for total political correctness. and to be honest with you, this country doesn't have time either. this country is in big trouble. we don't win anymore. we lose to china. we lose to mexico. both in trade and at the border. we lose to everybody. frankly, what i say and often times it's fun, it's kidding. we have a good time. what i say is what i say. and honestly, megyn, if you don't like it, i'm sorry. i've been very nice to you although i could probably maybe not be based on the way you have treated me but i wouldn't do that. >> question. did trump answer megyn kelly? >> she was very much a participant then in the debate. she's catching the devil on tweets and everything for going after trump that way. that it was unfair. and he's getting benefit from it.

he is also getting hostility from it because it is in a word, a claim, misogynistic. >> you call her being a participant. that was a journalist doing a followup question not letting him get away with saying that was just rosie o'donnell. instances. maybe she is getting beat up on twitter by some people, but trust me, that makes her a heroin --. here. this is outstanding. >> i would defend fox news too when fox news practices good journalism which occasionally they do. >> did they do that to anybody else in that debate? >> they should. because you are supposed to be held --. you know as a former candidate you're supposed to be called to account for what you say. and so not the first time that trump has been called to account for this. he could have just said, simply, if i offended anybody i'm sorry. but no. that's not donald trump's way. >> he threatened her.

he hinted there could be a reprisal against her because she wasn't treating him nice. >> i think basically people will come away, as part of the establishment, fox news joined them, they're all together and trying to bring the donald down. >> a conspiracy approach. >> it's not conspiracy. >> that's malarky, pat. the others are to be held accountable. >> have we seen enough of the donald in this program? >> of course not. all donald all the time. >> the moderators have to shake it up. >> what happens -- >> and revels in it. you see he is proud of what he says. do we want him holding the nuclear trigger? >> donald trump was the draw in that debate. they got an audience of 24 million people. it was great entertainment. >> people who don't like politics loved it and they wanted to see more trump. >> before we leave, we have a

the show in a matter of 12 hours because the debate was last night. issue four, social security, medicare, entitlement reform. >> if congress wants to mess with the retirement program why don't we let them start by chapingjg their retirement program and not having one instead of talking about getting rid of social security and medicare that was robbed of $700 million to pay for obama care? we can't fix the problem just by entering congress' retirement. that is worth about this much. we need to go for the fundamental problem. >> question, will america's entitlement system survive with reforms of the type mentioned by mike huckabee. >> he just said get rid of the congressional thing. that's fine. christie showed some political courage in coming out saying basically we're going to move the retirement age one month every year for the next 25 years. that would certainly help save social security but is it politically the wise thing to do? >> christie won that exchange but i'm not sure his entitlement reform as a

proposal going forward is good politics. >> although the polling shows out of all of the bad solutions and they're all distasteful to somebody, this is the best way to go. i should say the most popular way to go. >> i think this is walter mondale. i will raise taxes if -- >> he was being too candid. >> you can see the republican candidates are trying to focus more on broadening the base. as a millennial, that kind of comment appeals to me because i know if i get to the age of some of the other panelists here, with much respect to all of you, i won't have medicare or social security. >> don't talk to buchanan that way. >> you're not the republican base. mclaughlin is. >> the base needs to expand. >> do you want to cut mclaughlin's social security? >> no. well, yes, i do. >> social security is very broad. >> that debate did nothing to

expand the republican base on any issue, on women's issues, immigration, zero. >> i think -- >> kasich was good, 1-10. >> we're out of control here. which of the 10 republican contenders lost ground in the debate? >> i think i disagree. i think scott walker did because i think he is sort of the, a real candidate to run in the opposite trump, you know, bracket, and i don't think he did -- it's almost impossible to remember anything he said. >> if you're watching midwestern governors and you have to choose between kasich and walker, kasich wins. i would agree. walker is a narrow minded, conservative --. kasich is able to think more broadly. >> scott walker is very popular. you have to understand that. i also think going back to what eleanor said about the political benefit of talking about entitlement reform i tend to think republicans have a big advantage going up to the general election. if they can articulate, look. we're in favor of things which

favor of entitlement reform so young people have it which hillary clinton seems to be against. >> i don't think hillary is against it. >> she doesn't want to reform it. if you can be the candidate of the peam of the future --. >> i've been saying for years republicans ought to be the party of ideas again. you didn't hear that last night. you heard what they were against. >> barry goldwater led the party of ideas and came out for privatizing social security. it didn't work. >> he was too candid, right? ve knows we got to do something with it. >> which of the republican contenders lost ground? >> i think we covered -- if it was someone else beyond rand paul for me i would say -- >> trump. >> no. i think jindal, graham. >> huckabee helped himself i believe. i thought he had a good performance. i think he helped himself. >> he had a good opening statement but otherwise his comments were --

>> carson other than the closing statement, i don't think he had any other statement. >> somebody is going to be voted off the island to make room for carly fiorina in the september debate and i -- it could be ben carson. >> i think carson is running fifth or sixth in the polls though. >> he's not at the bottom. >> the governors i thought gave the best answers but the nongovernors, just not sitting governors like huckabee and cruz excited the crowd more. i think it was the early reviews that found them ahead. what does this say, you know, if you've got practical answers to win the election. >> one thing very quickly about how the republican party is changing, remember the 2012 primary debates, there was booing of a gay soldier. this time kasich's remark got actually applause. >> that's right. >> that shows times are changing. it was also i think a reflection of opinion about you

the same time have respect for -- >> who is going to get the nomination based on what we've seen in this debate? >> nobody has mentioned bush. have they, john? bush i don't think had a great night. but he still is in the running because of all that money he's got. the name. the party. >> bush was flat, but he still looks like a grownup. you can imagine him as president. he is still in the game. i think rubio and kasich are, those are the three i'd keep my eye on. >> seemed a little nervous. >> i think rubio will be the nominee, yeah. >> i'm sticking with bush as the nominee. i think he is starting off slow on purpose, keeping more of what a low profile like romney did erl oin. you remember four years ago, john, herman kaine was on top of the polling about this time and every single tait up on the stage served their week or whatever at the top the polls and it came back to romney. i think that will happen again.

>> the answer is kasich. we'll be right back with predictions. so what i'm saying is, people like options. when you take geico, you can call them anytime you feel like saving money. it don't matter, day or night. use your computer, your smartphone, your tablet, whatever.

the point is, you have options. oh, how convenient. hey. crab cakes, what are you looking at?