>> dickerson: today on "face the nation." will the summer of trump become the autumn of trump. >> somehow the party of lincoln has become the party of trump. >> dickerson: donald may be clear he's in for the republican nomination for the long haul. at least until he changes his mind. >> i will be totally pledging my allegiance to the republican party and the conservative principles for which it stands. >> dickerson: we'll talk to carly fiorina about her outsider campaign, what we should look for in a president and hillary clinton's defense of her private e-mail server and hear from newt gingrich how does he think the g.o.p. will play out. joe biden is getting a lot of attention, but doesn't appear any closer on a decision to enter the race. >> honest to god answer is i don't know.

>> dickerson: we'll talk about it all in our panel get report on the latest on the migrant crisis in europe. our book panel on discovery and innovation. david mccullough looked at the pioneers of flight in the wright brothers. apollo 11 astronaut buzz aldrin aims to go from the moon onward in "mission is mars" and walter isaacson writes about hackers, geniuses and geeks to created the digital revolution. rachel swabbie the contribution of women in science. women who changed science in the world. all ahead on "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs earlier i spoke with republican presidential candidate carly fiorina in manchester, new hampshire. i want to talk to you about what voters should think about when they're thinking about nonpoliticians and being fit for the job. you had interview just after donald trump spoke to radio

host, he asked some questions about islamic terrorism being commander in chief, you answered those questions, you also said what you didn't know. donald trump had more difficulty let's listen to what he said. >> do you know the players without a scorecard yet? >> no. you know, i'll tell you honestly i think by the time we get to office they will all be changed, they will be gone. i knew were going to ask me things like, this no reason because number one i'll find -- douglas mcarthur in the pack. >> he would delegate, get up to speed in 24 hours that's what people in business do. you were a ceo, is he right about that? >> i disagree with him on. that i think it is very difficult to lead if you don't have the requisite knowledge. and i think it's perfectly acceptable you don't know the name of every terrorist leader. i don't always either. i do think it's important to know who our enemies are. i think it's important to know the difference between hamas and

hezbollah. and to know as well that both of them, for example, are proxies of iran. i do think we've come to a place, though, where people realize that running for political office all your life isn't necessarily the most qualifying set of experiences either. we have a professional political class, 80% of the american people now think we have professional political class that is either unwilling or unable to challenge the status quo of washington and get anything done. we have festering problems in washington. not to mention a lack of leadership around the world. i understand how the economy works, i understand how the world works and who is in it, who are our friends. and who are our enemies i understand how big bur rocca sees work which is what washington, d.c. has come become. i understand technology and leadership. those are the necessary experiences and qualifications to become president of the united states. >> dickerson: keeping with this business theme, if you're on the

hiring committee would donald trump be fit to be commander in chief? >> that's not a question for me that's a question for the volters of this country. i am most definitely fit to be demander in chief that's why i'm running for that office. >> dickerson: i'd like to ask you about hillary clinton's server and the interview she gave. it wasn't the best choice having her own private e-mail server but she also made another case, she said basically she came into office there was a lot going on, a lot to be focused on she wasn't really paying super close attention to the formation of her e-mail server. as somebody who also been in top post who has had to drink from that fire hose do you find that explanation plausible? >> i actually don't. because it takes a lot of work to install a private server system in your basement. it takes a lot of work to make sure that you are having the right connections to conduct both personal and professional business over that system.

we know, for example, that she hired into the state department a political operative who had done i.t. work on her campaign and for her pac that that i.t. operative was paid $5,000 not by taxpayers but by mrs. clinton herself to do i.t. work on that basement server. so that actually takes a lot of work and lot of effort. so i don't think it's plausible for her to say, i wasn't paying any attention she clearly was paying attention. >> dickerson: other news from the week i'd like to get your reaction to. which is this migrant crisis, refugees, these pictures we've seen, what is the u.s. role in this humanitarian crisis? >> well, those pictures are unbelievably heartbreaking. and unfortunately we have known this crisis was coming for a very long time. this is an example of what happens when the united states fails to lead. president obama had options in

syria three years ago and he failed to exercise any of those options. and he has watched as this humanitarian crisis has grown and grown. it isn't surprising, actually, that these refugees are pouring out of syria. we now have somewhere between 43-06 million refugees on the move around the world because they are trying to escape conflict zones like syria. the united states, i believe, has done its fair share in terms of humanitarian aid, certainly the united states has not led as i indicated earlier. i think the united states honestly sadly cannot relax our entrance criteria. we are having to be very careful about who we let enter this country from these war-torn regions to ensure that terrorists are not coming here. i think the europeans need to continue to step up here both in terms of the amount of money

they provide for humanitarian relief. they have not done as much as the united states has done on that front i also think they are beginning to step up let some of these refugees cross into their borders, but sadly this is a crisis that everyone should have known was coming for at least three years now. >> dickerson: carly fiorina, thanks for being with us. >> thanks for having me, john. dickerson: we're joined now by former republican presidential candidate and speaker of the house, newt gingrich. mr. speaker, i want to start with the hugh hewitt with donald trump did we learn anything meaningful about his capacity to be president? >> i think it's a sign, a good sense -- the truths no national leader knows anything about the head of the force they may have memorized the name, they don't know what school he went to or what fashion he belongs to or whether he was in moscow.

this is not presidential stuff. going to hire secretary of state, going to hire national security advise other, going to have secretary of defense. the question -- real question is, so what would you do about >> dickerson: when we're thinking about, you thought when you campaigned a lot about how to do stuff in this job. talk to me about a business person comes in, george schulz used to say, former secretary of state, in the private sector say, do this, then got into office he'd say do this, nothing would happen. give us realistic assessment of business person comes in gets stuff done? >> i think secretary schulz put american government. and since he was secretary in the 1980s. would be fascinating if trump does get in, or for that matter carson or fiorina all of whom represent outside experiences, that are they prepared to go to congress, end the civil service system.

there is a bill, jeff miller came out of the house allow secretary of veterans affairs to fire any bureaucrat. that's beginning of a revolution. until we're prepared to say, 75% of the american people according to gallup believe there is, quote, widespread corruption. standard. 75% of the people believe that government in america is failing and needs to be changed. >> dickerson: ask you about trump's immigration policy. you ran, you said that the way that republicans talk about immigration was harmful to the party. donald trump talking about deporting all undocumented workers, what is that going to do for the party? >> first of all, no idea what the affect of trump will be over six months or a year how change. he's now met with the head of hispanic chamber of commerce, about to meet with their board. >> dickerson: could be softening? >> he's learning. the one thing i've always found

to be true with trump is, i think he learns faster than any other political figure i've known except bill clinton. big mistake to assume that the donald trump you saw yesterday is donald trump you'll see a month from now? >> dickerson: where should he end up by -- >> first of all actually, details of his plan is a touch back plan which was firly popular in 2007 basically says, most illegal immigrants would agree with this. you go back home, you file, you come back in, now obeyed the law. not saying deport you permanent ly. i think there are lots of problems with it. we got off in 2012 i don't believe in self deportation. you can figure out ways to get much closer than that. the reason trump is having impact, the reason carson and fee lena and cruz, they have been seen as team. they represent the, we're sick

of all you regular guys. i think it's because the american public has now been told, for example, reagan's diary in 1986, he signs the immigration bill because going to control the border. 1986. somebody who is going to kick over the table, start a new game, i don't care about the details. >> dickerson: if there's a kick over the table mentality how does jeb bush operate in such a place? >> i have number of very good friends who are running, i've thought a lot about it. i don't know how you take this on. everybody say, well -- right now, it has. iowa it's trump and carson. explain in south carolina, trump and south carolina. kay sick has cleverley focused his energy in new hampshire so in new hampshire it will be trump. if you were running how would you muscle in as somebody who is --

>> i don't have a clue. i think about this every day. i think this there is a desire on the part of the american people, which i largely agree with to profoundly change the current terms of american politics and government. they want somebody -- they want in different formats they want calm, stable, dr. carson, they want energetic ceo carly fiorina, aggressive, hard charging ted cruz or they want bombastic, loud, running something nobody understands, running on winning. the heart of the trump model is, i want to make us a winner again. if you like to be winner i'll make us a winner. then people talk about policy questions. i'd like to win. americans out there go, i like winning. winning sounds good to me. >> dickerson: we'll see if he actually does do it. thanks so much for being with us. we'll be back in a minute.illion customers' data was not compromised this morning

in a security breach that didn't happen. wall street. not rattled. at all. no. not at all. not at all. i mean, look at the day. sir. sir. what went right? what went right? everything. thank you. with threat intelligence, behavioral analytics, and 6000 experts, ibm security will help keep you out of the news. my dad's company wasn't hacked today. cool. alaska. finally. the search for brown bears begins. denali highway. low on gas. pit stop. fill up. double points. yep, that's cold. tired. day 2. coffee. eggs. double points. beautiful. majestic... nothing. where are you, bear? warm. warmer. warmer. yes. wherever the journey takes you, carry american express gold. it's more than a card. it's the gear that gets it done.

the hundreds of thousands of migrants many refugees from war-torn syria tried to escape to a better life. after being stranded in hungary for days many found safe passage to germany and austria. cbs news foreign correspondent charlie d'agata joins us. >> here is the scene in vienna they have been welcoming migrants off the train, these have come in from the border. they're not sticking around here, most are headed to germany. and the flow has been endless. the syrian migrants have been going on for months. this week a surge of thousands quickly overwhelmed struggling european countries with no clear plan on how to handle the sheer numbers. hung gentleman degree razor wire fence along border with serbia didn't do much to slow them

down. but the budapest train station became the flash point as hungary blocked desperate migrants from boarding trains to germany and austria demanding they register for asylum first. hag warred but defiant they set off to the border on foot. hand. government deployed a fleet of buses to pick them up along the highway and train station and drop them off at the boarder with austria. having crossed into austria and onward to germany the migrants were greeted with food and drinks, cheers and open arms. >> it may seem that the situation is improving certainly has for those migrants who have been able to get to places like austria and germany but it is much different story for the

hundreds of migrants that are arriving by the day in hungary there's no guarantee that they will be allowed to travel onward. john? >> dickerson: charlie d'agata, thank you. we'll be right back with our political panel, stay with us. are you moving forward fast enough? everywhere you look, it strategy is now business strategy. and a partnership with hp can help you accelerate down a path created by people, technology and ideas. to move your company from what it is now... to what it needs to become. want to see your future? you're me, right? (engine rev) i obviously haven't slowed down at all! what do you think? the key is to stay hungry.

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>> dickerson: turn toe our political panel. the washington bureau chief for the "wall street journal." the chief political correspondent nancy cordes our

congressional correspondent and ben is the publisher of the federalist. start with you, donald trump had a little trouble with hugh hewitt. his poll numbers will only increase. >> i don't think that sort of thing matters all that much the trump candidacy is about leadership not about issues. i do think there's bit of problem there which is the sleeper issue is national security, it's a dangerous world. people are frightened. the question then becomes, do you trust the person to lead in a dangerous world that's question more of demeanor than issues or policy. ronald reagan would not have done well but he had the right demeanor. that is the question for trump. >> dickerson: then in conservative circles opponents of trim of who have tried to grab one of these moments say, you see, here is -- is there an emerging case that -- or provide an opportunity among conservatives? >> i don't think that it does.

the fact is that condescension from political within the republican party now something that entirely is to trump's benefit. directed towards them. the general attitudes of todd i think to jerry's point not so much sophisticated knowledge of the various people operating national security but will this person do the right thing when the moment calls for it. i think that is something that delivers. he could stand on national television in front of map of iran make exploding noises for 15 minutes it would amount to sophisticated view of foreign policy and national security than republicans have heard. >> dickerson: what do you make of this? is any other candidate in republican field have chance to take advantage of this foreign policy? >> i think it does. this is -- i think all the candidates rubio probably one

who is best positioned to be acceptable. i think when trump declines, rubio will be -- i think rubio well positioned to capitalize on this underlying issue of nation natural secure. >> dickerson: that's his argument you got to know some stuff. you can make decisions between option a and b but if you don't know option c exists out there. nancy, hillary clinton who you've spent some time with, how do they see donald trump? i heard about group of clinton fund raidsers together at party all they were talking about was donald trump? >> her concern his concern with dumb that he makes everyone else in the field look mainstream. and they are trying to get the message out there that when it comes to issues like, planned parenthood, immigration, that a lot of the republican field is right there with donald trump when it comes to policy. but they're afraid that to the

average voter they see donald trump's position, then someone like jeb bush, he's right down the middle, that's great. independent voter might like that they're engaged in trying to show that when it comes to policy the republican candidates are more alike than different. >> i this think handed democrats a tool with that pledge. asking all candidates to support the eventual nominee. now next year, jeb bush signed i think, trump signed it, you can very easily say it to any republican nominee, you support trump, will you support these things that trump said. what do you make of the pledge, jerry? >> i think republican national committee chairman works behind the scenes to get carly fiorina in the second debate which was big deal. i think having her on outside would have looked bad. >> dickerson: the main stage. >> on the main stage of the main debate. i think that getting the pledge signed was real plus because it takes an elephant out of the

room for republicans. this was a problem, created lot of sun certainty, donors were saying to the republican national committee if somebody within the party is going to blow it up after that i do. >> dickerson: running at independent. >> this creates a little bit more time until the next phase for now that was a big deal. >> there's nothing binding about it. donald trump can say, well, they didn't live up to their end up. or i don't think the person who is nominee going the distance. i got no choice. >> dickerson: good negotiate we're never be so bound. ben, you wrote about a threat that trump pose to the mean? >> there is a threat that is namely that he has tapped into a group of americans who feel that the large elites of both parties have ignored their priorities, that they are out of step with them, not just on immigration but on trade. and certainly on the priority that they have when it comes to politics. this is a disaffected group of people and what you see is

typically when you look at these polls is that trump performs the best among people who have not before. that to me is dangerous for number of reasons. particularly because we've seen the path in europe that happens populism, naturism, nationalism and phobia, things of that nature. the danger right now is that trump is speaking for a group of people, he is their avatar in way that lot of other political candidates are not. in opposition to the priorities washington. i think that his affect on republican party could be tangible regardless of whether he wins the nomination or not. he does speak for those people. >> dickerson: what do you make of -- jeb bush has tried to pick up on what ben is talking about. this week amped up his attacks, that we're going to fight for it now. how is that fight going? >> i think it's problematic, i think they are better off fighting than not. because it's two-way flow. donald trump is attacking jeb bush more than anybody else, if

you in donald trump's world you look at the establishment group that's what where everybody else is outside of ben carson they think most likely alternative to emerge from that establishment group there for you have to take him down starting now. i think it's a two-way street. jeb bush decides you look a week if you don't fight. the trump world looks at jeb bush says, he's the most likely anti-trump candidate we better go after him now. >> dickerson: what about the other nontrump candidates how that sorts out? >> i'm looking at the -- scott walker to an extent, chris christie to a certain extent. of those people like i said earlier i think rubio's the one who is going to do best, scott walker -- it's striking to see how much trump has completely demolished scott walker's standing iowa and new hampshire and nationally.

six months ago we were talking about scott walker as someone who is going to be the alternative to bush or alternative to rubio but looks like he's diminished. >> in part because he's not compelling candidate. for people who have been, who feel like system is rigged feel like people are ignoring their priorities donald trump is the golden haired adonis turning winter into spring. they're hero, their champion they are perfectly having a champion who is inconsistent in these different areas of policy, fiscal conservatism anything else as long as he is someone who speaks to their priorities. he fights. that's what they compare about injured that's what newt gingrich was taubing about, the golden haired winner. we'll be right back with-mile-an-hour political panel to discuss democrats and new pole in new hampshire. stay with us. can a business have a mind? a subconscious. a knack for predicting the future. reflexes faster than the speed of thought.

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>> dickerson: back with our political panel. the washington bureau chief of the "wall street journal." the chief political correspondent and nancy cordes our cbs news congressional correspondent and ben is the publisher of the federalist. nancy, start with you. new news out of new hampshire, nbc poll bernie sanders nine points ahead of hillary clinton. respond to that that also hillary clinton spent week talking about her e-mails again. >> huge reversal from couple of months ago i reached out this morning. bernie sanders campaign this shows that more people get to know bernie sanders the more they like him. hillary clinton's campaign didn't address them directly we're very confident in the organization that we're building in new hampshire which is code

for, okay, may get a lot of enthusiasm. he's from neighbing vermont he's doing the feel-good rallies but at the end of the day we'll have the operation to get people to the polls. >> dickerson: she seemed to take it more seriously there were jokes in the previous week now seems to be more serious even calling up some fund raidsers to the headquarters to talk to them. >> i think they decided that they needed to have a different approach i thought interview with andrea mitchell was sign of in other words sit down what they knew was going to be prolonged conversation about this issue. actually thought it worked well. why doesn't she do three or four of these a week. best way to show that you're not being secretive and evasive is act that way. i thought that was effective way of doing it. i suspect we're in new phase, more broadly in their chance. >> dickerson: chris christie once giving advice to hillary clinton said she needed to do what he did, stand up there take questions until people stop being able to answer them.

there's discontent in the democratic, always discontent. you can write story, so-and-so is discontented. the discontent i hear with the handling of this, do they have a case? >> i think they do have a case. obviously i don't think clinton in 2009 when this e-mail server was created, but i do think that hillary clinton should know that she is among the most watched people in american politics if not the world. and that if she inkling of maybe run for president in the future to have not done this. it doesn't necessarily mean that the e-mail server is illegal or criminal or anything, just i think bad political judgment of someone who really should know better. i think what creates democrats you should know better. >> the attitude among republicans in was that hillary clinton was someone who was a more responsible and more trusted person when it came to just the responsibility of governance.

and that that was something that they understood even within context of the democratic primary. now this is of a moment for lot of people because you knew this was going to be an issue you still continue to do this the question being raised now about staff that she employed that may raise all sorts of ethical questions and congress only beginning to look into. i think this is going to continue to be story that she does need tone gauge in that kind of -- approach to answering questions. >> slightly worse. saying she did this precisely because she knew. that's a no win situation. >> dickerson: you were with joe biden week, talk about him quickly, he talked about whether he would run or not. very emotional. >> very emotional, raw, anguish. he did not look like someone who is ready to make a decision one way or another. he said he's trying to figure out if he has the emotional energy to run. i talked to someone very close to him this weekend who said, as far as they know he is still on the same timetable which is that he will make a decision by the

end of the summer. the autumn alley question knocks is 16 1/2 days away. whether he's ready to make that decision or not, time is ticking. >> dickerson: getting very stonehengey. do you think he can -- what's your assessment? >> what joe biden is selling is authenticity because he's not a polished guy. this seems to be cycle which authenticity works. that is going for him, i think. the problem he's got is that iowa, new hampshire, nancy was saying places where organization matters he's got nothing going there. he gets to the south after that, that is a place where the large minority african american vote is very, very heavily favors hillary clinton that's bit of a problem. he's going to find a path it's not actually obvious what that path is. >> it's not a path on issues, on economic issues he's not really that far from hillary clinton whatsoever. on issues that might a peel to african american voters in the

south he has long history of being -- he's vulnerable to that if it comes up in the context. >> he does have deep ties in south carolina. he vacations there, he knows lot of people there. in fact some of the strongest >> dickerson: we'll have to leave it there. thanks so much to all of you

we'll be right back in a moment. >> dickerson: we're back now to talk books. the library of congress celebrated 15th national book festival this one marking the 200th anniversary of the library's acquisition of thomas jefferson's personal collection. even featured more than 170 authors wop of the big draws, delighting fans was apollo 11 astronaut buzz aldrin who left his footprints on the surface of the moon in 1969. buzz aldrin is here with us now to talk about the next step for the u.s. space program in the "mission to mars" and "welcome to mars" and prize winner david mccullough who wrote "the wright brothers" about the historic first flight.

rachel swaby the author of "head strong: 52 women who changed science and the world" and walter isaacson, created the digital revolution. buzz, i want to start with you. you have chirp's book. >> i do. dickerson: why? >> a couple before. but this one, the other writer would understand this is so fantastic in explanation at the level of comprehension of middle schools. i learned something that marion taught me. she followed the vision of my very, very closely. >> dickerson: david, ask you, the wright brothers, you said it's truly american story.

what is it about this,. >> the fact that they seem to come into the world with few advantages, they grew up in a house that had no running water, no indoor plumbing, no electricity, no telephone. and orville the younger brother, years later asked agree that this was an example of how far someone with no advantages can go in an american life. and he said, well that's not true. he said we grew up with the most important advantage anybody can have we grew up in a home where intellectual curiosity was encouraged and sim late. the fact that they never went to college seems also very important. but the truth was that they also grew up in house that was full of books. and their father and mother stressed that reading and

learning to use the english language were essential to a full life and to have purpose in your life. i think that -- the purpose of the country in those times that era between let's say late 19th century and 1910 or up to time of the first world war. was progress on all levels. that's different from today. today is more protection. and that's -- you have to understand the time in which ople live as well as where they came from. >> you said your book started with beaver vogue that have, why? >> but in 2013 there was was the world's best mom. the second paragraph that it mentioned, oh, yeah, she was the

only woman, american woman who was in rocket science in the 1940s and designed propulsion system. after that i thought, we need better profiles of women in science. need to promote their work in science. i wrote a book. >> dickerson: some of the characters are also in walter's book. walter in your book you make a case for innovation that is collaborative. and so tell us a little bit about that argument that you make. >> well, you know, biographers that have dirty little secret we make a learned inventor goes to moment. you read the book you have a team that sort of brilliant guy, wilbur wright, a great engineer then whole thing they put together. same way the computer was made. same way the internet was made. to me the women who got written out of the story like grace

harper who is in your book, like ada lovelace who begins and ends my book they were all part of teams in which creativity becomes collaborative effort. >> dickerson: buzz, you were part of big team that got you to the moon. tell us a little bit about that sense of team work that led to that. >> critical decision that really made apollo work was the decision by engineer from langley to do a rendezvous around the moon to save weight, expense and to make this work much better than well-known people who wanted to rendezvous around the earth. that person was john.

it took him three and a half years to get the message across. it's taken me since 1985 working on that. now there's another person, professor richard batten at m.i.t. and he and engineer worked on a spacecraft that was going to go to mars, take one picture, circle around it, land in the gulf of mexico. no contact with the earth at all. navigating only self contained autonomous by measuring the angle between the star and the horizon either the top or the bottom. over and over again. that navigation system inspired

many of us at m.i.t. but it was years, this proposal to send this spacecraft to mars and back with one picture, that is without a doubt why m.i.t. together with other institutions and manufacturers won guidance and navigation contract for apollo mission. >> dickerson: walter, where do these ideas come from. combining faculty. start to work this idea. she is the son of -- daughter of a great poet. >> she connects poetry and processes, she connects arts and science. that's what we did when we created the space program. wilbur and orville wright. sheer curiosity, this connecting to say it's the arts and sciences when they come together that steve jobs was driven by.

always ended his presentation with that of the arts and sciences said, that's where innovation lies. and also comes from a time when we all used to aim high. like going to the moon, going to mars. going to do flight. inventing the internet. i think as country don't aim high any more. >> big ideas. says we'll go to the moon. i just told him -- >> they said that president kennedy went to nasa said, i think we should go to mr. . they were aghast. they spent one busy weekend putting comarts together then -- maybe get there in 15 years. >> dickerson: buzz talked about resistance to the idea of going to mars, people said you

couldn't couldn't fly, eater. >> furthermore once they did fly it took five years for them to convince people that come and see what we've done. not the local newspapers. not the government here in washington. even bother to come and watch. and one of the editors of the paper, flying eight miles outside of dayton, still there, was later asked why in the world couldn't you realize this was happening rather than -- he said, well, i guess we were plain stupid injured all the characters in your book have big hurdles because they constantly got men saying, women don't do this. what is your favorite story of character who got around and length they took to get around? >> right. lot of favorites. one, a nobel prize winning scientist, she was italian and she was practicing when hitler

was in power she wasn't able to work any more. that was a bummer. she decided to create her own bedroom lab, it was secret lab, her brother made incubator, got fertilized eggs from down the street, filed down knitting needle started doing experiments with her scalpel. she was able to do really important work from her bedroom. then seen by scientists in the u.s. she went for research for couple of months ended up being there for decades. >> dickerson: my favorite the trip she took with the two mice in per hours. we'll be back in a moment with more from our book panel.

stay with us.

>> dickerson: we're back with more from our authors' pam. walter, start with you, we were talking about perseverance in the face of opposition. what about risk taking. in the entrepreneurs that you write about. >> it's the key thing that separates america from the rest of the world. we allow people to fail and

whether it's orville wright when plane crashes he breaks lights and everything else there's a consequence but still get back up and people still invest in you. steve jobs the movie of steve jobs that's coming out that aaron sorkin did, all about the period in the wilderness and failed then deal with his personal relationships and everything else it comes back as a better person. i think that whether it's silicon valley or everything done up until recently we allow people to take risks then when they fail they say, okay, fine, we'll invest because you've learned something. but here in washington, i think that's a big problem. because i think people are too risk averse because it's easier to just be safe. >> dickerson: never allowed to admit a mistake. alice hamilton took a few risks when she's of doing her own experiment i love the story about the cocaine, tell us that story. >> the problem at the turn of

the century where drugstore were pedaling cocaine to kids coming home from school. it became a bigger problem when they couldn't afford it so social reformers jumped in and went to court, she came in as somebody who was supposed to tell the difference between cocaine and some other powder, but there were a number of problems she first tried testing the cocaine on bunny's eyes but the jury wasn't really into it because cocaine and other powder wouldn't -- she decided to do it on herself. >> dickerson: on her own eyes. >> very effective. dickerson: they say difference between a risk and a gamble is that you can back out of a risk, that gamble there is no going back. where were the wright brothers, they took risks, of course, but they also seemed to be quite took is that right? >> yes. they were not dare devils. they looked to every conceivable possibility that could go wrong which was mainly to make sure

that their machine, whatever it was, was okay before taking off. if you ask who were the wright brothers, well, they invented the airplane. they were bicycle mechanics they came from ohio. that's about all most of us know. really essentially what i knew. yes, they did invent the airplane. but equally important they invented how to fly the airplane and that is where the risk came in. to even attempt to become pilots was running the risk of being thought of as crack pot, weirdo. but every time they took off on a test flight, they knew they could be killed. they -- not too or three times go up 50 to 100 times a year. they would never fly together because if one got killed they wanted the other still to be alive to carry on with the mission. they had both intellectual

courage and physical courage which i think is something slightly to be remembered because that's not easy. and particularly when you have a lot of people who are worrying every single day because they love you so much that you're going to get killed. >> dickerson: buzz, you know about risk. you've walked in space, you walked on the moon. tell us about the moment where you thought this is the riskiest thing i'm doing. >> i think the riskiest being in combat in korea, really. there is great uncertainty, we felt there was great certainty. the engineers said 95% or greater we had no choice but to believe them. but we as a crew were concerned about the most important thing

on apollo 11 was, the landing. we said what's the chance of being able to land not have to come back be safe about it. 60%. six out of seven missions to the moon were successful. we are now very risk averse in this country, i believe that this nation is the nation that can colonize. when you colonize something you go there, you look it over you come back. not necessarily if you can look over something from orbit like the mars and build things there, they're safe. then when you are ready to

commit to permanence. we want to build up a population on mars and i think we can do that because we know what we can do from orbit. now, we can commit to permanence. we can change our mind as to what the mission plan is, that is guts. that is what americans have and the crew members understand risk. they wouldn't have been test pilots. wouldn't have gotten into combat. >> dickerson: thank you all very much for being with us. >> thank you very much. dickerson: we'll be right back. push your enterprise and you can move the world. but to get from the old way to the new,

you'll need the right it infrastructure. from a partner who knows how to make your enterprise more agile, borderlessnd secure. hp helps business move on all the possibilities of today. and stay ready for everything that is still to come.

>> dickerson: that's it for us today until next week for "face the nation" i'm john dickerson. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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