access.wgbh.org they found out who's been hacking into our network. who? guess. i don't know, some kids in a basement? you watch too many movies. who? a small business in china. a business? they work nine to five. they take lunch hours. like a job? like a job. we tracked them. how did we do that? we have some new guys defending our network. new guys? well, they're not that new. they've been defending things for a long time. [ digital typewriting ] it's not just security. it's defense. bae systems. >> dickerson: today on "face the nation," donald trump campaign manager promise a new donald trump. but donald trump seems to like the old one. the republican front runner was in form in connecticut.

talk about it because it's depressing. i don't like toning it down. >> dickerson: later. if i was presidential i'd have teleprommer. ever see crooked teleprompter. she walks in -- >> good afternoon, how are you? dickerson: we've gotten to the candidates imitating each other stage. >> trump keeps saying things like, i didn't really mean it. it was all part of my reality tv show. >> dickerson: all five northeast states holding primaries tuesday things are looking good for trump and clinton. what's the next move for republican john kasich and democrat bernie sanders we'll talk to both of them. we have new battleground tracker poll results and we'll take look back at the 1954 effort by republicans to stop conservative barry goldwater.

who touched millions. all coming up on "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs good morning, welcome to "face the nation" i'm john dickerson. heading into tuesday's primaries in connecticut, rhode island, delaware, maryland, pennsylvania, things look good for front runner donald trump. our new battleground tracker in pennsylvania donald trump leads the field by wide margin. he's at 49 to ted cruz at 26 and john kasich is in third at 22%. indiana holds its primary on may 3rd, where the stop trump forces think they have their best shot. the race is tighter there, trump is in first with 40%, cruz has 35. kasich trails with 20% support among republican voters. we'll get to the democrats in a moment but first ohio governor john kasich joins us from the campaign trail in rhode island. governor the clip for growth is

that because you have so few delegates that vote for you is really a vote for donald trump, what is your response to that ad? >> well, first of all they are working aggressively against me because they are for somebody else. secondly vote for cruz or trump frankly is a vote for hillary clinton i have some new numbers here that came came out of new hampshire. let me tell you, hillary is at 50, trump at 31. hillary at 48, cruz at 34. then third match uphill reis at 36 and john kasich at 50. what's really amaze they surveyed the voters in new hampshire who actually voted in the republican primary which trump won where i finished second. today according to this poll i lead donald trump 26-22. i'm the only one who can defeat hillary clinton consistently in 15 national polls and even the electoral college chose the same thing. so, at the end of it all i think when we're at the convention,

know who can beat hillary because if we don't beat hillary we lose the supreme court, the united states senate, state and local races that's where we're heading. these guys don't have enough time to turn around super high negatives. >> dickerson: making the electability argument in 1964, pennsylvania governor made the same argument against barry goldwater, governor scranton said i'm more electable. why are they going to listen now? >> because if they look at history, goldwater got smoked we lost everything. i mean that's why, because i think delegates are pretty smart when it comes to picking somebody who can win in the fall. look, we're pick be up delegates, my message is being heard i'm emerging, big crowds here in rhode island, huge turn out today. we just keep putting one foot in front of the other it will work out. you know the message of growth of opportunity of bringing people together, this is what

message of gloom and doom, the "washington post" said, the robe kasich doesn't do so well is because he's not apocalyptic candidate. i don't think the apocalypse is coming next week. i think we can straight then country out i'm going to keep talking about it. >> dickerson: you're competing in that delegate conversation with donald trump and his campaign manager said this to some republicans, quote, he gets it. the party is evolving, negatives will come down, image is going to change. what is your reaction to that? >> well, i don't want to have anybody have negatives but i can tell you, john, after my first year as governor, i was one of the most unpopular governors maybe the most unpopular governor in the country. it takes a long time to change negatives. people have to see that you're actually being fruitful in your work. what happened with me when people started getting work, we started balancing budgets and reaching out to people, it changed. you can't turn negatives around overnight. it's not possible to do. because when you create that,

people you just can't talk your way out of it unfortunately for those that have high negatives. >> dickerson: let me ask you about the convention coming unup, there are reports that you've been vetting running mates. that you might announce one as early as june, what can you tell us about that? >> well, we have some old hands now who are beginning to do that. these things come quickly and you don't want to have yourself in position where you got to pick somebody out of a hat. so i have some skilled hands who are beginning now to take a look and figure out who would really fit. it's just starting, so there isn't a lot to report. >> dickerson: i could imagine john kasich making his arguments to the delegates might say, here is the ticket not just john kasich, sheer what the ticket would look like. >> that's interesting. dickerson: might do you that? >> might be. yeah, it's possible. i don't run the campaign. i'm just the candidate, okay. well, i know what is going on, i had to approve that we were going to start vetting.

as a group, i'll have my strong opinions of it at some point but we're at the preliminary stage. and, yeah, i think it's always possible. reagan tried to do that in 1976, he didn't win. you know, did work out later. he influenced the country and there's something to be said for that. >> dickerson: let me ask you about the convention, security measures, there's talk about if it might get rough, what are you doing in terms of security in case there's anything associated with the convention. are you adding more security? >> well, john, i don't think i should be getting into the security discussion, but we try to be prepared for all events as best as humanly possible. the secret service will be the lead entity on this. our highway patrol is intimately involved. of course cleveland police, there will be other entities of law enforcement from around the

and we prepare for what we think could happen and we have been preparing for number of things offer the years since i've been governor. and we have good security people. i talked to them about it at the end of the day, they will be ready but i don't think i need to talk about security on television. >> dickerson: all right. finally, governor, i wanted to ask you, donald trump had some difficulty with your name and pronouncing it. i want to play you clip get your reaction to that. >> a millions of votes for than kasich, i don't know how you pronounce his names, it's i-c-h i say case-itch. but it's pronounced case-ick. it's really -- you know, can we ask him to change the spelling of his name, are we allowed to do that? so ridiculous. >> dickerson: any advice for grim on the pronounciation of your name? >> i don't find these things amusing. when they're talking about you,

i used to sayf they spell your name right that's good. no, i chuckle, it makes me laugh. god bless him. god bless you and our listeners. >> dickerson: thank you, governor. we'll end it right there. >> all right, thank you. dickerson: turning to the democratic race, hillary clinton leads bernie sanders by eight points in our pennsylvania battleground tracker, 51% to 43%. in indiana it's a tighter race there, too. clinton is up 5 points over sanders 49-44 among likely democratic primary voters with that we turn to senator sanders who joins us from providence this morning. senator, i want to ask, hillary clinton has more votes and delegates is it your view that democrats want to vote for you but that there is something rigged about the system that is keeping that from happening? >> john, we started this campaign 60 points behind secretary clinton.

number of the national polls have had us tied, me ahead a little bit or her ahead. we have cam an enormous way. we are running against the most powerful organization in united states of america, i'm proud of the campaign that we have. we have won 16 states right now in almost all of the contests we win the younger people, by that i mean not just kids but people 45 years of age or under. i think the ideas we are talking about are what the american people and people in democratic party want to hear, we are the future of the democratic party. i'm very proud of where we are and we look forward to finding this out through california. >> dickerson: one of the issues you've talked about so much is income and equality and npr did analysis, where income and equality was high that hillary clinton was winning in those places you were asked about this on meet the press you said, well, more people -- poor people don't vote. but florida, michigan which you

30,000 ended up voting more for hillary clinton. that doesn't seem to be the case. >> well, one of the challenges that we have as a nation is that we have one of the lowest voter turn outs in general of any major country. on the last national election, 63% of the american people didn't vote and those numbers were worse for young people and for low income people. i believe that what we are trying to do in this campaign, john, with some success, is bring people into the political process. obviously we have got to do better but i would hope that if i am the nominee that on election day you're going to see a very, very large voter turn out. if that is the case, i think we can change the dynamics of american politics so it is not just big money interests who help elect candidates who outrageous campaign contributions, but what we have

>> dickerson: do you still stand by that poor people aren't winning? >> well, i think we would -- fact of the matter is, that we have low voter turn out in new york state, three million vote. i think that that is pretty crazy. i think that as a nation we have got to significantly increase the voter turn out, there is no doubt that among low income people the voter turn out is quite low. >> dickerson: one of the -- in our poll one of the things we found is that your supporters want to you continue even if you don't get the number of delegates because you have so affected hillary's positions, if that's the case you were to continue, is there a specific issue or two that you, given leverage you have, would demand that the nominee support that hillary clinton is not supporting at the moment? >> well, john, there's not a question whether if we are going

we're going to fight this out to the last vote is cast that's what democracy is about. you can't say that largest state in this country, california, you can't determine who the nominee will be or what the agenda will be. the basic issues that we are running on is that we have a rigged economy where the middle class continues to decline and almost all the income and wealth goes to the top 1%. we are not being vigorous enough to combat climate change. let me tell you something, i'm on the environmental committee, scientists are very clearf we don't transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to sustainable energy this plan set in serious trouble for our kids and grandchildren. i got to also add, that what we are going to fight for is end corrupt campaign finance system by which billionaires of wall street and super packs are able to buy elections, those are the election are mobilizing the american people and will continue to fight for. >> dickerson: i guess what i was asking whether you'll take the

convention and say something like, if you don't get nomination, i would like hillary clinton to support that $15 national minimum wage, reinstate, come out against fracking, make specific requests like that. >> john, that was very good start. you're doing well, keep going. throw in the fact that we are the only major country on earth that doesn't guarantee health care to all people as a right. we need a medicare for all health care program. we need to guarantee paid family and medical leave. need to make public colleges and universities tuition free, all of those issues that i believe that the vast majority of people in the democratic party support. i hope that if i do not win the nomination that that will be part of clinton's agenda. >> dickerson: your strategist said after next tuesday you may rethink, reevaluate your to be towards hillary clinton, what

>> i have not the slightest idea. you have to ask tad. my own view that we are going to debate in a respectful manner the differences of opinions that we have. and we have many differences with secretary clinton as you indicated. i believe minimum wage should be 15 bucks an hour she believes it should be 12 an hour. i believe that we have got to make public colleges and universities tuition free. i believe that we need a carbon tax which many of the international financial organizations agree with me on f. we are going to be serious about transforming our energy saving this planet. i believe in my foreign policy views are quite different from senator -- secretary's clinton's i have not great fan of regime change you have too many unintended consequences. i do not want our brave men and women in the military to get sucked into perpetual welfare. i will continue contrasting my

>> dickerson: thanks so much. >> thank you very much. dickerson: joining us now from more on upcoming primaries is cbs news director of elections, anthony salvanto. donald trump had big night in new york, so what do the rest of the states look like? >> coming up tuesday starting with pennsylvania where he's got big lead, things look good. if he gets bulk of delegates now we look week ahead to indiana where we also find him up. what's happening in indiana looks a lot like what's happening in many other states, where ted cruz make argument conservative enough. ted cruz is winning the voters who want the most conservative things done. those out number by people who say, do whatever it takes. and that group is for trump. >> dickerson: indiana is place where the stop trump movement thought they had chance but he's >> exactly. that was one of the places where ted cruz was saying where we can put up the barricades to slow down trump's momentum.

that big map, where do we stand donald trump's march to that magic number of 1,278. >> has clear slight line to clinching the nomination if you figure he does well on tuesday, just be competitive let alone win indiana that would keep him on pace such as we get out to june where the last of the primary will be held he will be in position to clinch. i think his issue is, not just simply bath whether or not he can clinch, but if he can bridge this gap that we see in state after state between voters who are for him and very enthusiastic, very optimistic, voters who are not for him say they're concerned, emotional gap. i think the math starts to take care of itself. >> dickerson: that's why he's changing his approach to things in terms of his tone. let's switch to the democrats. hopefully indiana -- >> pennsylvania needs for hillary clinton she expects to have good night tuesday then on

smaller but lead on bernie sanders. the big picture of hillary clinton here is that she has enough of a delegate lead right now, and because of the way democrats give out their delegates which is some to the winner and loser she could afford to lose from here on out. lose primaries as long as she keeps it close and she'll still clinch the nomination. >> dickerson: that's among pledged delegates she'd still clinch. >> yeah. dickerson: if you're sanders voter why do you stay in, why do you want to him to stay in. >> there is a sense of inevitability. very few sanders voters say he's very likely to win the nomination. but they think he is having, at the very least, a positive affect on this campaign. they say that they think he is pushing hillary clinton towards more progressive policies, which is what they want. as well historically, we know this better than anybody, if somebody finishes second what they want is that leverage. what they want is to be able to have influence over that

getting it. >> dickerson: just in the last 20 seconds here, any sign that anybody worried about the fight continuing hurting the ultimate nominee? >> no, they aren't. democrats, very few say any has been negative. they are enthusiastic about both candidates, clinton and sanders whoever comes out. it's all positive at least on democratic side. >> dickerson: we'll see if it continues to be. thanks so much we'll look forward to having you back at for us. to all of you we'll be back in a

prince. >> dickerson: we don't often pause for musical tributes but the death of prince this week touched people all over the world. fans piled flowers and homemade tributes at his home outside of minneapolis. in new orleans, they marched in the streets to celebrate three

buildings were colored purple. everyone from broadway to the boss paid tribute. old friends reconnected remembering the song they listened to together growing up. and fans everywhere played their favorite prince songs as they never had before. president obama was headed to london when the news broke. >> it so happens, this morning we played "purple rain" just to get warmed up before we left the house. >> dickerson: no ordinary fan. the first couple hosted a secret white house prince concert for 500 of their friends last year. john kasich tried to explain to

news report because -- >> there were too many other things i wanted to look at including some of the tributes to prince. >> dickerson: were you a prince fan? >> you know, who didn't love "party like it's 1999". and my wife the other day told me upon learning ever his death, tomorrow i'll be wearing all purple. >> dickerson: his death had enormous impact with fans all across the world. it's from the iraqable. >> dickerson: in an election where there seems to be a donald trump angle to every story the billionaire once inspired a prince song. even this reporter has something to say about prince. in 1984 he was the first musician i ever saw live in concert.

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human resources can work better. with xerox. >> dickerson: after donald trump's victory in new york and likely wins in next week's contests republicans who oppose him have to evaluate how far they will go. will they keep fighting at the convention even if he becomes the nominee? that's some republicans did in 1964. more than 50 years before there was a never trump movement, there was stop goldwater. that movement was made up of moderate republicans trying to keep arizona senator barry gold water from winning their party's nomination. they worried his staunch conservatism would lead to the destruction of the g.o.p. although the goldwater girls lent a sunny touch to the

entered something darker. goldwater's opposition to the civil rights act had attracted people that old guard republicans wanted no part of. including overt racists, new york governor nelson rock feller who had lost to goldwater in the primaries railed against these extremists. >> through the growth of respectability. >> dickerson: the crowd shouted rockefeller down. >> some of you don't like to hear it, ladies and gentlemen, but it's the truth. >> dickerson: rockefeller won. precisely goldwater's outspoken, politically incorrect style that appealed so so many. when he accepted the nomination, goldwater threw rock fell are's

>> i would remind you that extremism is the events of liberty -- >> goldwater triumph muched but was clobbered in the general election. a decade later ronald reagan would pick up the goldwater mantle take on the sitting president of his own party. more on that in our next installment. we'll be right back. real is touching a ray. amazing is moving like one. real is making new friends. amazing is getting this close. real is an animal rescue. amazing is over twenty-seven thousand of them. there is only one place where real and amazing live.

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stay with us. >> dickerson: welcome back to fakes the nation. joinings us now reihan salam executive editor of the "national review." ed ed o'keefe with the "washington post."

correspondent nancy cordes andes could klein is the founder of vox.com. nancy you've been covering senator sanders what do you make of him now after new york, conversation that i had with him, do you see a shift in his campaign. >> not numb of tonal shift for the clinton camps a bit. he isn't saying he lacks judgment any more not this week that she doesn't know what she's doing or isn't qualified which wrangled them. but still didn't like the fact he's creating a contract on wall street she needs to hand over wall street, what could be in them they feel that is still giving ammunition to the trump camp. on the other hand he is still candidate he needs to draw contrast between himself and his only other opponents which is hillary clinton. >> dickerson: give me a sense of how negative bernie sanders has been with. there is lot of territory he could cover that he has not. >> i did not think this is a

my see this -- he dug up amazing clip of 199 with jerry brown and bill clinton went at it. jerry brown was attacking hillary clinton's legal fees and over corruption and when you go watch that, watch past debates this is the gentlist, most respectful, most substantive also campaign we've seen. give credit to them both they have real differences that they explained quite clearly, generally kept it above the board which is one reason i'm skeptical those say it's going to be that hard for the party to unite after the convention. >> i thought it was interesting, that he conceded that he's not interested in using tens of millions of dollars to start political action group or endorse like-minded democratic candidates but wants to become member of the party and focus on policy, minimum wage. >> something very striking about that, the fact that he has not been democrat for deck eights. the movement that he built something separate and distinct from the democratic party when

saying that democratic party is a weak host waiting to be taken offer by this new movement. the trouble, however, is look at the fact that bernie sanders actually has lot of very wealthy supporters. that is interesting. calling for higher tax on the rich and what have you. what people are missing is that bernie sanders is speaking to a lot of white voters in many cases who feel marginalized by the rising place of identity politics, rising place of african americans and latinos, they don't think of that it way. but bernie sanders is giving them a way to say that, we still have place at the table. >> i'm very skeptical of that in ii pri takes of sanders. when you look what's happening with sanders and the party you see fundamentally generational split. you see a tremendous generational split winning 80% of young voters in hillary clinton. i think hillary clinton wins this, you can't beat hillary clinton again unless you're hillary clinton. she has such deep connections to the party's institutional

history with various constituent actors. very young, ambitious democratic politician asking what model that you can replicate, bernie sanders who you say not part of the party for long time, entirely the message that i thinks one that the rising class of young voters the trouble is going to have a tremendous -- the african american voters. constituent see that is liberal. large number of conservatives and modern voters who do not vote republicans. when you look at younger voters has done well with young voters of color, look at that constituency those folks have not been voting in large numbers. when we see other voters of color coming into the process later on they will be more inclined like hillary clinton who is talking about the particular challenges facing voters of color. this is going to be very interesting. something that is distinct to democratic politics. >> you think that the candidate who says, we don't have to make

for broke is always going to appeal to young voters who are idealistic where someone like hillary clinton who has been around the bench, had to make some of these unpleasant compromises that basically every politician has to make to get things done, is not going to be as inspirational to someone who is observing politics for the first time. >> dickerson: do you think there is any danger these younger voters have turned out in touch numbers for bernie sanders who are excited by him in way that they're not really of clinton, if she gets nomination that she's in danger of losing those voters? if donald trump is the alternative aren't they coming to her? >> that's the gamble that they're hoping for, but i think they're very conscious and concerned about it. i think that is part of why there's real hope and concern that she maybe shows off little more of her personality and focuss on the history of what would be the first woman presidency. also who the running mate would be. somebody who is as liberal or similarly liberal to bernie sanders or a little younger and

what he does. if he has a reckoning with hillary clinton and gets behind her says, this is the candidate, we have to beat donald trump, he has said that he will do whatever he can to defeat donald trump. he hasn't said, i'll do whatever i can to back hillary clinton, if he says to his millions of supporters, look, she's talking the talk, walking the walk that i want her to you need to vote for her. that will make a huge difference. >> dickerson: in 1908, ezra, ted kennedy said i want the following things on the platform, he got a lot of those. is there a to do list or specific list that sanders might want to use leverage he has with all the voters to say i'd like hillary clinton to adopt the following positions, not just speak in broad terms but be quite specific? >> platforms need to offer vehicle for that kind of trade that people don't feel as potent see any more. even if sanders believes -- did get hillary clinton to endorse a carbon tox, the fact of the

republican house, assuming win the presidency she wouldn't necessarily do it, i'm not sure somebody likes sanders with as much mistrust in the system as he has would see that as way to go. what i do think is going to be the interesting question with him. whether if he does not win the nomination, he converts his fundraising, his movement into a downward movement. how much is he really interested in meeting revolution to change democratic party and broadly the country, how much was bernie sanders revolution just effort to get bernie sanders elected to the presidency. >> dickerson: what you're talking about multi-year, multi-process, start in this election but presumably -- >> right, change the party from the future candidates like bernie sanders are the candidates of the establishment or his particular campaign and when -- ha his campaign doesn't succeed he walks away from it. >> there are two dozen bernie-crats running for congress most are going to come up short.

way to turn his money and his mechanisms -- >> it's important as you move the party one direction, you grow it in one way you of course risk losing some of the people that support the party along. right now you have the look like a trump-clinton race, also happening on the republican side. we're talking about what is likely to be decade-long process which bernie sanders are hoping to remake the party and that will be very interesting looking at what that realignment looks like because republican party post trump will have to adapt to those changes and adapt who is sloughing off. >> i think it's going to depend partly how he feels that he's being treated by the party at the convention and going forward. i've asked him before point blank, are you going to use your prodigious ability to raise money on behalf of this party that you now belong to. he said, stay tuned. >> dickerson: last word. >> under utilized talent of the clintons, how good they are turning former enemies into

she's good at this in the senate, ended up funding many clinton global initiatives, very good at treating former opponents well. >> dickerson: she may already be in that process now we heard this week sort of welcoming the sanders people are trying to welcome them into the fold. let's pause here, we'll be right back with more from our panel and we'll talk about that other party. and with her, a flood of potential patients. a deluge of digital records. x-rays, mris. all on account...of penelope. but with the help of at&t, and a network that scales up and down on-demand, the hospital can be ready. giving them the agility to be flexible & reliable.

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>> dickerson: lear back with our panel. i want to start with you, donald trump's campaign manager said to group of republicans meaning he said, you'll start to see more depth of the person. the real person, you'll see a different guy. saying that donald trump is going to evolve what do you make of that? >> we saw donald trump in apac he gave a speech he read from a teleprompter, he was very disciplined basically all the usual things one would expect a republican candidate to say. the trouble is that donald trump has done as well that he has because of his attitude, ability to create excitement and energy. and i find it very hard to believe that he's going to be able to maintain that discipline tone, not really abut policy issues, he's taken dozen different policy stances over the course of his campaign so far. i just find it very unlikely that man effort will be able to

>> dickerson: it takes long them for them to go down usually politicians never want to admit their negatives are high. could any politician do anything to drive down those things? >> >> if you can become very different person, problem is it turns out to be extremely hard to become very different person on the fly in the middle of the campaign when you're tired all the time. when you're always in front of the cameras. already has ideas about you somewhat structure what they do and don't report. i don't think it's quite funny that trump is going to unvail moderate part of him. i rob him saying if i'm like the president i'll become more politically correct guy you can imagine a. person who could make that kind of make over of themself not the person that comes out and says that aloud. does not have the discipline to say everything he is thinking. not able to offer sobriety that i think codes for people as moderate which is separate from policy protections. >> dickerson: what is fascinating if you talk to people who are voting for trump

either i like that he says whatever he wants, that he's off the cuff, that he's totally not in politics may be saying those things but not going to be that way within he's president. even if he tries to change it, it may keep his basis of support no reason to believe that he can grow his base of support if he makes those changes because everyone else will say, we see what has been going glob here is a guy who says i can can presidential, just wait, turns around says, well, if i were being presidential, none of you would be here you'dal so bored by me. >> that was very delicate. dickerson: what some people have tried to warm to trump have hoped for that he would be malleable. there was one quote from somebody on the hill saying, the republican leadership will tell him what to do on policy front and he'll come in right behind that because he's a moveable fellow. isn't that what man north is saying, we'll get to wherever you need us to get? >> there have been variety of

people thought that. there is time several months ago after south carolina where you have bob dole and other grands of the party, he might be lot more sensible than ted cruz, might be more mall rabble than you describe than that goes away. people go silent, people were saying that he could be more sensible in these ways. my sense is that he is going to try to build a brand, build excitement around the campaign but beyond that, he is a rogue agent. he also by the way has to raise money, he's been promising that he's self funder this entire time, democrats have tremendous resources, he's already alienated large numbers of major donorsa huge apparatus not just the party but around the party that is not going to coalesce around him this time. eggs going to feel a need for that free media, how is he going to get it. >> dickerson: nancy, his argument, he has to find somebody to fund his general election because it's super expensive. one of his big arguments, i'm

that? >> he can put more of his own money into it, he is worth between $4-7 billion. whatever he says. >> he says ten. >> he is going to have huge problem raising money, the koch brothers might get behind hillary clinton before they get behind donald trump. and there's even a question of whether lot of these big sponsors who you typically see at the convention will be there or whether they will pull out because they don't want to be brand. >> where do you think the ultimate trump convention argument is which is about fairness. i have the votes, i have the delegates, whether i get the majority of delegates, doesn't matter. the fair thing to do would give me the nomination, how do you think he's doing in making that case? >> i think it is going to be very hard to know how that's going to feel at the convention. i've been talking to some other

confident and make the argument that the only rule here, it's anybody's game. i think that this is a place where your rules contrick with your norms. what people are used to doing, feel normal to them give it to the guy in the lead. to give it to someone else is going to feel at that moment, after that first ballot vote like a tremendous, tremendous move. i don't know how they're going to build the permission structure for those delegates to give it to ted cruz or to some outsider. i think donald trump has pretty easy argument here, the question is, he does something so offensive to those delegates that he's not openly able to make it. >> he better do it, we know based on results yesterday that the seats are continuing to get packed with supporters of ted cruz. it happened in utah, kentucky, maine, minnesota, south carolina again where he will vote on first balance lot for trump if you won your state if there's second ballot they can switch very quickly and vote for cruz. may not get him that on second

impossible for trim top prevail. >> dickerson: the inside game that cruz has been winning that donald trump so irritated. >> looking less likely that it plays out. if you look at our battleground tracker, leading in indiana which was looking like state where the candidates could blunt his momentum. he can win it out right you don't get to convention. >> you can't win a fear-based campaign against donald trump. you can against him in the general election that is the fundamental dilemma. if you look at sarah palin, running mates never matter except in 2008 the running mate did matter she initially had enormous popularity seemed refreshing and new, they were questioning her judgment, a heartbeat away from the presidency that one time when running mate mattered. this time around simply matter of his being erratic, unreliable. his willingness to change positions at any moment that is just going to be such a slam dunk just somehow ted cruz can't

john kasich can make that case in the primary. >> dickerson: he met with delegates he wouldn't tell us how the meeting went. >> that's right. this was in pennsylvania because you got 54 people who get elected on tuesday and delegates officially have to declare their allegiance to cruz and the trump campaign trying the get elected to vote for him. kasich has done it and wouldn't name names. he continues to make that argument he made to you that i can beat hillary clinton in a general election, doesn't seem to matter, i think we are seeing echoes of 1964 as you mentioned. he'll stick around, he'll get his votes, he's there if someone needs run can mate perhaps or if they do need a late ballot option. beyond that i was stunned, he could be running another gub style campaign in pennsylvania like he did at the new hampshire. he hasn't been doing it. he could have done it in maryland. over and over again we just see him bouncing around to all these different states merricking a

in to actually get a win or pick up big collection of delegates. just hasn't done it. >> dickerson: we'll have to leave it there. thanks to all of you for joining that's it.

us. >> dickerson: we're back "new york times" white house correspondent mark landler he has a new book out, "alter egos" has written cover story for the "new york times" cover story, how hillary became a hawk. let's start there. what is hillary clinton's foreign policy world view, where does it fit in, where obama has been, where others have been. >> first of all i'd say really the word, she's a textbook american exceptionallist, phrase american exceptionalism gets thrown around a lot. he fervently believes that the u.s. has a positive role to play, that u.s. engagement is vital, that the military and threat of military force is vital at times to press our national interest. and that puts her at odds with president obama in a significant way. not necessarily in the broadest strokes but in some specific

intervention, syria, libya, places like that you see her world view as really being some stark contrast to his. that's the relationship that really fascinated me in this book. >> dickerson: is there many places, it's tricky to ask this but i'll do it anyway, syria or lane where where you think the differences between you as people are comparing her, where they differ, example that is the best one? >> brightest line was probably syria where if you recall she was in favor of supplying arms to the moderate rebels back in 2012. and president obama was initially reluctant he came around and finally agreed to do it but never with much enthusiasm. and he's held the line against intervention, against syria during the campaign, hillary clinton has come out in favor of a no fly zone, president obama still against that. so, i think that's probably the one area where you see it play

just is a different view. hillary clinton believes that a stronger american intervention would give the u.s. some leverage to change events on the ground, i think president obama just fundamentally skeptical that we can make a difference in syria. and so that is one that i really drilled in to as major difference. >> dickerson: the term indispensable nation is with the clinton, the phrase that has gotten in the obama years is that he talks about free riders, to say other nations are not doing their share. so is that -- >> i think that's exactly right. indispensable nation was a phrase that bill clinton made popular. i look in to what extent bill clinton's experience as president and world view filtered in to what hillary clinton believes. i think that is a very good example. i think what president obama on the other hand, i think what he is saying, we need to define our interests a little bit more narrowly than perhaps we did in

we need to racking that we can't be at the center of every single issue. you look at ukraine, for example, i think hillary clinton, there again, would probably be inclined to be more forward leaning, that weapons to the ukrainians where as the president saying, look, they're not a vital national interest for us the way they are for the russians we need to be more cautious. >> dickerson: where is this from, people who cover hillary clinton being so cautious, you write about her as constantly monitoring her status in the role of places, but yet she is more forward leaning more progressive how do they exist? >> it's interesting, you raise an interesting paradox because i think that on military force on the use of the military intervention she is more risk ready, more forward leaning than the president. on diplomacy interestingly enough which is another major part of my book, she's actually much more cautious. i argue, i think that you can

been elected in 20 to 08 instead of president obama never done nuclear deal with iran. that was very difficult risky deal and she was very skeptical about it. he threw himself into it. likewise with cuba that is more questionable, but the president took a major risk. he's cautious on military side, he's actually real risk taker on the diplomatic side. >> dickerson: you quote an aide, former leading american troops in iraq -- afghanistan, sorry and iraq. but on the afghanistan question this aide said that hillary clinton led to the over militarization of the debate. is that what you're talking about there, where her view on military kind of over takes the diplomacy? >> i think that was -- may have been unique set of circumstances where it was early in the administering she was trying to prove her relevance and in that

behind bob gates, petraeus, but maybe lost an opportunity to make a stronger case for the diplomatic side of the equation. in afghanistan we needed to perhaps do more with pakistan, perhaps do -- more of greater recognition of the karzai government. that was really the role she could have played in that debate. i would argue she didn't as much as she could have. >> last 20 seconds. where would you expect hillary clinton to turn first if she were president? >> i'd be very interested to see whether she finally did try to tackle syria in a more aggressive way than the president. i'd also be very interested to see what she does with vladimir putin. she's been much more skeptical for longer period of time about the intentions of the russians i'd love to see what she did with him not just syria but the ukraine. >> dickerson: thanks so much for this fascinating look. book is "alter ego." we'll be back in a moment. i think we should've taken a left at the river. tarzan know where tarzan go! tarzan does not know where tarzan go. hey, excuse me,

waterfall? no, me tarzan, king of jungle. why don't you want to just ask somebody? if you're a couple, you fight over directions. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. oh ohhhhh it's what you do.

>> dickerson: that's it for us today. thanks for watching. until next week for "face the nation" i'm john dickerson. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org thank you for dining with us. hope to see you again soon.

just gotta get the check. almost there. i can't reach it. if you have alligator arms, you avoid picking up the check. what? it's what you do. i got this. thanks, dennis! if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. growwwlph. it's what you do. oh that is good crispy duck. >> from washington, the mclaughlin group. the american original. for over three decades, the