fr los angeles, i am tavi smiley. first up tonight, our conversation with jane mayer, author of the best-sellingook "the dk side." it includes an asssment of h the obamadministration is dealing with the issu of terrorism. also tight, maliaval and a ok at the unique world of teenaged boys, whomshe researchefor the book cald "the secret les of boys." journalist janeayer and sal malina cominup right now. >> there are so my things that wal-mart is looking forwardo doing, like hping people li better. but mostly, we'reelping build stronger counities and

elationships. with your help,he best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports "tavis smey." tavis and nationwide, working together to improvefinancial litera and the economic empowerment that comesith it. >> ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ >> and by contributio to your pbs station from viers like you. ank you. [ctioning made possible by kcet public tevision] tavis: jane mayer is staff wrir for "the new yorker" writes about national intelligence. she islso a bt selling authowhose latest is now out in papeack, "the dark side --

the inside storyf how the war on terror tned into a war of american ideals." congratulatns on your success. let me start by asking y what the most significt change, not shif on iraq -- change, shift on iraq plicy that came out? >> for me, obama came in and it is first week banished rture. and he also cled down the secr prison sites that the cia had. he is tryg to get is back on a reasonable footing that is keeping with american values, but iis not so easy. tavis: historicly, is tre any shiftrom one admistration to the ne that came so swiftly, ceain, and so severe? >> i think this was one of the

most fantastic turnaround we hae had. it was a complete obliteration of the pocies of georgeush. hewiped thelate -- he wiped e slate can. particularly torture. tavis: and there are tose who argue that president obama has not gon far enou on the torture issue. your thought >> i think is a sppery slope. it is interestg, i anybody understands this, it is barack obama. he taught constitional law. in dealng with the prisonersn guantamo, they are really talking aut posbly keeping an open, holding themforever, detention indenitely without trial. an if barack obama does th, i think he wi start to ke some of the same mistakes bh had. avis: for those whoavenot

been following thi case like y have, wha is the stus now with specific regard to guantanamo? >> torture has en abolied by obama. we are now observing the loss, the geva convention. -- we a nowbserving the law is, at the geneva conntion. that has beenone. e problem is, obama got left with this population of prisoners guaanamo whose rits were so violated by th bush administration that it is very hard bing the back into the courts. they ha been tortur before. you cnot just put them on tral because their ghts have been violated. the evidence that is against them has come fr people who re tortured. those confession should be thrown out in any decent american court. the pblem is the evence is tainted, the casesre tainted by everything bh did befor but these are very dangerous people, some them, and you

cannot just let them go free. tavis: what hasbama sd or wt are we deting about the options? >> th have gone through this process of trying to figure out ho is innocent sthey can let them go. en they have tried to come up with chaes against the people they can charge in crt. hey're working on that pross now. i think the issue is, it is there a remaining group people who are dangerousho they canno bring into court? i think again,if obama deces there are people that hethinks the united statesan hold without chging themwithout giving them a tal, hold them forever, he will start tmake some of the same mistakeseorge bush did. tavis: but how cou he? ow could he do that? how could he do that, and when say dothat,egally, number on, and politically what is the arment for holdinthem indefinitel

>> i was just speaking with somebody at the whe house about it. the argument is basically, righ ter t 9/11 attacks, congress wrote mething called e authorizaon to use military foe that allows the united states to call the war on tror a war. under the les war, you could hold th enemy wn you ha enemy prisoners of war unt the end of the conflict. they could argue this is a war, th conflict is notver because thwar on terror continues, and they couldold them until e end of t war on terror nobody has defined whathat means, but it couldold them basical forever. -- but they could hold tm basically rever. tis: but th would fly in the face of his agument of upholding american ids. >> but they will say is is a littleifferent from what bush did. bush said was becaushe was psident, he cod define who t enemy was and hold them

indefinitely. obama is sayg, i am not ding this because i am president. do not have those rigs just because i am preside. but congress has athorized this becausehey p through this legislatn. he is not saying it is because i am king, is because congress de it possible. it is less tyrannica buti do not think it willly, certainly not with the human rights community. tavis: what we know in addition to what has changed is that dick cheney has sarted coming in ike the phantom of the opera, nd he has a lot to say. we had the battlef the press day when obama s speaking about trture, dick cheney was speaking about torte, both of them were being carrie live th diametrically different points of view. how does dick cheneynd those who believe in his argent, who see it e way he es it, wch

is to sayif you let any of thse people go, if anything ever happensgaincourtesy of thes individuals,bama would ver live it down. ifny of theseersons got let go and anythinhappen between no and reelection, it would be ove >> i interviewed leonanetta, and said it is almost as if dick cheney wants america to get tacked again. he got into trole for sayin it, but most people understood what he sai itis like ck cheneys lying wn a marker in says, if anything ad happens, it is obama is not torturing people the y we did -- its obama's fault because he is not portray the pple the way we did. it is ridulous. we get attacked again, a expert will say it is possible, it is not because we are not torturing pele, it is because is impossible to have perfect securi in an open democracy.

tas: the argument could made that we're being attacked again. they are getting ready. back toouroint, a lot of people believthat is not a tter of if but when. that the is no way that you could ever 100% certain that you will not g hit again inside your borders. the argument that dick cheney would make is we are getng hit begin not because we did not tortured but becausee are being too softn these terrorists. >> right, and thats the argument ey are trying to make, and i tink it is not fr beuse the reason we were attaed in the first placead nothg to do with being soft on people it s becaus there wasn intelligen failure. the fbi and cia stop talking to each other and dropped the ball. ifyou talk to perts, they wil say this issue of supposedly ingough, using tough metds just hurt more than a help you get tha informatn, you

start to hurt the reputation of amrica around the world, u make our enemies angry to t point that they are radicalized against us,nd this is what all the militaryeaders have said, is what the fbi ys. relly, the only people who are ill fighting for to be able to use torture or t people who use them before, pele like dick cheney. iave to wder if he is fighting for amica where he is fighting for his own reputation. tavis: th probably? >> i think so. tavis: how are we doing under the ama administratio with intelgence? what is the chief failure, at we did not get the intel correct. how are we doing on at the intelligence? >> he saywe are worried that wetill did not have great terrogators. he i setting up something tha sounds almost like the manhattan project for interrogion. they are going to ge the best

homicide deteives in the country and they're going to get people from the fbi, the cia, the mitary, linguists who speak the languages, cultural experts, and try to put tother th brain trust to interrogate terrorists. he is on it. i do not think they have accomplished all they want to yet. tavis: how does the troop drawdown in iraq impacthis? i do not have a crystal ball. u just hope for the best. but obviously, an sort of fled ates around the world, if iraq becomes unable,is a problem for terrism. tavis: anothe queion that may quire a crystal ball which you said you just do not have, what then it ifresident obama becomesthe stdard for suess, for mission ccomplished what is the standard r him on this issue?

>>ne of ththingsthat he said tt i like it is that our secuty, that there is not a contradiction between our security dur values. e isaying, and i hopee can prove this successfully tough his term, isby using our laws, our great judicial system, and our curts and our values, w are stronger. it is nobecause of weaker. w will we judge tt? we will see if they get covictions and get rid of tse peoplin guaanamo and treat them anyay that is jst. he does that,hat will be tremdous. tavis: fascinating story, a jane meyer is a grt writer. her book is called "theark side." ce to have you back, as always. up next, a unique look at the wld ofeenaged boys wi urnalist malina saval.

stay with us. mali sals an auor whose rk has appeared inthe l.a. times" and "variety." her n book is called "the secret lives of boys." nice to have u onhe prram. what i at t secret life of ys? >> therange from everything that i met boys who had veneal diseases that the parents did not know about, boys who were applying to colleges who tir parents didot know abou. on their own, there re planning to go to different scools. i had boys who were spendg nightsat various friend's houses w their paren did not know about. ere were just a lot of secrets that were nuanced, emotional secrets, passions theyay have had about parts, vorite film resentment ey had that the

never real shared. it ran e gamut from the shocking to things that re really clo to the chest they did not feel mfortable sharing with their parents. tavis: our boys otional? >> th are incdibly4- otional. the are inedibly emotional. they talk, tey emote, they have so much to y and share. they're passionate, compassionate, interested. they talk for hours, to the poinwhere sometimes i had to tell tem we're nning out of time, we will come back this. boys are emional. i find fascinating thidea boys have nothing t say and ere is nothing going on inside ofhem, that they are paralyzed creatures with nothi to share. that is not true. tavis: to your point, this book is really a sh back on the notion tt you suggest now that the world of boys and ultimately

the future of the country going to hell in a handbasket because these boys today cannot get it together, particularl in communities ofolor, my own includ. givme the argument that does not push back on that notion >> i tried to debunk the stereotypes. you mentned minority teens, african american tnagers. one is caed the teaged dad. i went to thibook thinking, wouldn't it beonderful to get a white middle-class teen who had become a father? iannot geone, not beuse they do not exist, b because those teenagers and parents were re reluctant to gon record. what i found, spending time with a teenage father who is african- americ, for him these are not as much a big deal to have cld as a teenager and the comunity as in others.

how i'd abt the stereypes abut these boys, when you thk of a teenag dad, you thi of an absentee dad, a drug dealer dad, a fher who does not want anything to do with his child, out of thepicture. is particar teenager was trying iin some ways to bece the dad he ner had. there was smuchove he had for his chi, and thats not something that isn the statistics, t fact he was doing everything to get his lif togeth and work hard to not make the same mistakes his father had a mistak he had made earer on. that is just one exampleof how wanted to debunk the stereotypes of boys and bo of differe races and color. tavis: for this particular book, "the secrelives of boys," you could get a blk teenage fathero go on the record,uthe families of tse whi teenage faths did not want them on the record,

beyond tha what is the difference between house day, thehite teenage fathers, handled their responsibility -- whatis the difference between howhey, the white teenage faths, handle the responsibility between the black community? >> i met a couple of white teenagefathers who did not go on the record. of what i noticed was thei decision to have th child was met with a lot more opsition then for is particular team with his parents. because is team in the book called "theeenaged d," his parents had had him at young age, wheas the other kid who i met, his prents were professional and had waited to get out of hool before they had them. their frame of reference was ompletely different. acoss the boar getting these rents to coerate was

incredly difficult, gardless of race. and aot o respects, regaless of culture or soioeconomic, because the parents want to make sure i did not have a certain agenda. tavis: they wanted torotect the chilen. >> exactly, and was difficult rying to persuade the prents i was just a curious journalist o was intested inhat these kids had say and give em an opportunity tvoice their opinions. tavis: wi the wite teenage fathers, in some inances, their parents were pushing for an alternativ does that mean aoption oo talking the motr into a boarding the child? no. how did the teenage father procee -- does th mean adoption or abortion? yes, andes. they were encouging both both examples tavis: how did the boysandle

that? >> well, one of the boys absolutely said,o, i want take responsibility. i thnk probably the gut reaction of somebody hearing about a teenager who gets a girl pregnant, theifirst response is get rid of it. this teenager sa, no, i will take the responsibility. thiss sometng i did and want toe therefor my child. the parents came downith the whole de of realy, saidt you do not kn how diicult it is gointo be. also, wn you are a enager, is not uncommon for teenagers to be stubbo and very steadfast and resolute and really want to show their rents th they can do it, and they want to pre it the othepeople. thhad a determinaton tha really trumped any realy they had not t discovered. tavis: what fascited mebout

these enage boys and father could, the bo is about- what fascinated me about teenage boys and fatherhood, the book is about more, bt there are three categories that you put the ys into. i want to put out thr. one was the mini adu. >>hat is a kid who isld beore his time, anld soul. has troublefitting in with kids his age and adults, because physically he istill a child. this particular job was bullied and school, which is a big proem, and he never qteit in. he was strugglng to get 4.0, and wod not stop anything le than prfection en he admitted a some point, itwas going to ar down on him and he would hvehe result of ver really having a childhood.

he push himself harder than even his parents. he put a the pressure on himself, wch was interesting, because you hear so mh aout parents pushg their kids. this was a d who really jus unss he was perfect at school and with grades and gpa, and he was fused on his career at 13 when we oke, and he was focused on a care to make a lot of mey and support a family he had all these hea issues weighing on him at an age where mae he should be focusing on playing little leue baseball or relaxing. he had a diffilt time unwinding and boming a kid. he fanciehimself an alt in an emotional capacity tavis: another one of categories, the trolemaker. >> he was one of my favorites, because he was challenging. he called himself a trblemaker. these are chapter headings that the boys came u with otheir

own. they are not things i came up with i wted to give them a chance to define themselve in some respects, they are ironic andelf reflective reflecve of how society view them the troublemaker,he had a lot of issues where u could point to and say, he st be doin drugs, he must be a bad kid. he actually had l of undiaosed problems. he was later diagnosed with oppositional disorder, gns of bipolarisorder. he had been so misunrstood and ople kept saying he was a troublemakeand said he was doing drugs, and after what h would py into their game. you want me to be a drug addict? ok, i wl be a drug addict. he could nt beat them at their own game,o he sa i will just play along. he really was not a troublemaker but just a misundstood kid who was going through a lot. it took a longime before even his parents and the schl would relly come to terms with what

as going o and give him a second chan, which is very re. tavis: the sheltered 1. >> he is an teresting characr. heis an rican american teenager, ande isnot the quintessentia african american teenager. he said at times she ft like an outcast because when peoe conjure up aimage of the african americaneenager in our culture, they think o hip-hop and all thes thing and he was a straitlaced, prep kid. he was bizarrely sheltered. this is a good kid who had a lot of aspitions in the way of music, wanted to be a doctor, and his parents we immigrants from the caribbean. they wescared of america culture so much ey would not letim out ofhe house when thewere not there. he was basically under use arrest when they we not hom. he cann leave theouse beuse they were sced somethingight happen or he might get aids or somethin cry would dera his chances

for having a successful career. they were choosing his college, they would not t him go to a comtition for singing they were deprivg hiof a lot ofhings normal teenagers really need to grow he could not be withis friends outside to go even to diner t get a lkshake or anything. he was sheered. h parents drove him to and from school, would n letim get aicense or atm card. he was goi through a# lot and his identity was being squelched. becase of that, he had to sneak aroun becaus heaid, it is no fair. he had had a little freedom. it was an incidents -- itas an instance of a sheltered child whos parents we t even lettin himbrief. he wa telling me things never d a chance toxpress to his parents becauseif he did, they would clamp dn harder. he was an interesting peon

perry -- he s an interesting person. tavis: her na is malina saval, "the sret lives of boys." u might wantto get this book and see what category your boy' fall into. thank you for hang me on the program. that is our show foronight. catch me on the weekend on public radio inteational. access our podcast rough our website, pbs.org. i will see you next time ck here on pbs. thank you fo watching, and as always, keep theaith. >> for more formation on today's sh, visit tavis smiley on pbs.org. tavis: join me next time for our conversation with acta me -- actor jeremy remmer one of the most anticipated films. we will see you then. >> there are soany things that wal-mart is looking forward doing, like helpg people live beer.

but mosy, we're helping build stonger communities and relationships. because with your help, the st is yet to come >> nationwide insurance proudly supports "tavis smiley." tavis and nationwi, workingogetl teracy and the economc empowermenthat comes with it. >> ♪ nationwide s on your side ♪ >>and by contributions toour pbs stion from viewers li you. thank you. [captioning made possib by kcet public television] captiod by the nationacaptioningnstitute --www.ncip.org--