tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavi smiley. president ama arrived in russia today, which many consid one of his most important overseas trips to date. at stake, thattake of u.s.- russian relations. first up tonit, our conversation about th president's ip to russia with david ignatiuscolumnist for the washington post and author of the new spy novel, "the incremental." alo, actor jeremy reer is here. we're glad to have joineds. columnist daviignatius and

actor jeremy renner, coming up right now. >> there a so many things th wal-mart looking forward to doing, like helping peopleive better. but moly, we're helping build stronger comnities and lationships. with your help,he best is yet to come. >> nationwidinsurance prouy supports "tavismiley." tavis and nationwide, working together to improveinancial literacy and the economic empowerment that com with it. >> ♪ nationwide is oyour side ♪ >> and by contributions your pbs station from viers like you thank you. [captioni made possible by kcet public television] captioned by th national captiong institute --www.ncicaprg-- tavis: david ignatius is a

widely read columnis for "the wahington pos" his late books called "the increment," d this will be turned in a feature flm. david ignatius joins u tonight from washington. david, nice to have you on this program. i wanto get to the book. let me start wh the ns of the day specifically, regarding the president being in russi you wrote in yesterday's coln in "e wa impose,"the obama's note- the obama magic is so eident in other trips is not likely to be seen in russia. it will require inten discussion and serious ve-and- take, something that neither side is ready t offer. think inderstand that. but why don't you uncked that? >> i was in moow and i had a cnce tospeak withussian officials who are ose with

prime minister putin and president dmitri megeath. i came aay th the sense that the russians a really angry there isa chip on the country's shoulder, sense of resentment left over from thend of communism. they feel they were beaten up in the 1990's a the united states didnot help tm. thy keep that we think -- they ke thinking that 're pushing no and the protest and 're not listing to them. they're upset with ur efforts to encourage what ty think of as anti-russian feelings in neighbing countries, the ukraine and georgia. thy are angry. as result, they are not prepared talk abouthe things that we care about. the top of our list is iran. we take iran serioly. one russian official said te, " thank you have a media about iran. maybe you are still worried about the indians. that is yo problem, not ou."

it s very dismisve,lmost vulr. i came awayhinking this is not an ea problem. president obama anhis earlier trips, just the force of his personality, his charisma, his abilitto use wods ihink has really created excitement overseas. russians are in a more orderly and resentf mood it and it ll take more than his charm they are in a me orne and sentful mood and it will take more than his charm to brk through it. we have to lten to their prblems. tavis:ell me what th process ought to be. tt assumes thatt can be done. let's say pgress can be made. >> i think it can be done. we g into the habit in the 1990's when russia was so wek after the fallf communism of thinking we real did not have to take their vews seriously.

we did not. we just iored them. they said we're not happy about nato expansion. we said, so what? ey said we are nt happy about georgia and georgia's provocations, as they see them. we said basically, so what. we do not have that luxury anymore. if wnt russia as partner on issues like in and north korea, ther is no way toake progress witut having to listen to them. weave to takehen they say this is an important security concern for us, we he to listen d respond. tavis: i don't know that i need to fill in this questio more. there are big guns in rusa, and the question is whether president obama isalking to the right one? >> i thinkpresident obama made a stake. he has been shote -- soure foot. he made one, in myjudgment, tryio play the two ruian

leaders o each other. he spok of what the president dmitri medvede, as a modern fiure, a person with whom he had a goodrelationship. th he spoke of the prim ministe vladimir pin, as a mawho still has 1 fot in the old days of theold wr, almost dismissive of prunt's world- way of looking at the world. of the proem is that the re ower in the world is vladimir putin, he is callg the shots. they disagree it instantly, it is vladimir pin who wi. putin is the real ruler becaue russiansike the way that he putthings. th like hisoughness and anti-americanism. i think obama was trying to sweet talk the russians a ttle bit.

like this one, we do not like this on that is not going to wo. tavis: how does he sawhat problem? the money he solveshe problem recognizing it as a unified leadership he makes progress by lstening to what they both tellim about russia's security concerns a tried to respond creatively. tavis: let me shift now tohe book, because we haveeen talking about iran already. the book is about, connected to iran. give me the top line on th book. tavis, inhis new and novel, the increment," i imaginthat an iranian nuclear ientist who for mplicated reasons, but really bause heetests the regi that is running ian, he decid he's goingo share nformation with the cia, dropped a dime on the nuear

program. he does it by communicating wit the cian the internet. you can go to the cia's website and you will find there is a invitation to people overss to commit treason, se us secrets. i am told by my sources this is used quite a lot, peop do send us things the iernet. i am imagining an iranian who does tat, and then am imagining the american cia ficer who receives this information. it is sensational stuff, which could push us toward war with iran, details abo their programs,hich is seen as a reason for may be taki action, very much like ira where as w all remember argumen about iraq's weans of mass destructionsrovided direction for the war. the hero of mstory is determined not t let that happen again. he h lived through the ma of iraq's.

-- he has lived throughthe mess iraq. he ha lost his ow son who was a mare and iraq. he h decided that he wants to find outwith this person is doing, the scitist to sent the anonymous message, and getting him outso he ca talk to him. that is really what happens through the course othe book, the fort to fd this young man, talk to them an enormous sk. he has to u help from the britishho ha rources in iran at weo not to d this. but it is rely the story of these two people, and each of them trying to dohat they think is right and ithe process be ained the usual patriotic -- they are betraying the uual page roddick definition. -- the usual triotic definition. tavis: a couef all follow-

ups, number one, tell me more, i learn somethin about this open invation from t cia to rat out certain people, sir institutns. i never kne that existed o that people made u of that. it as a writer, as one who was inside the ltwaycovering these issues, what you me of theact that the cia has a ace on their webte for people to rat >> i am all for it. we live off of people whoere willing t drop the dime, tellus secrets that matter. in the old days, the people were caed walins, because ten they would just walk into the embas or consulatend asked to speak to an unoffial. then they would begin a relationsh. today, in th new world of the internet, the are known as viual walk-ins.

the cia calls them vw's, and they come acro the transom all time, sendinus informaon. it is very difficult kn whether y are being set up. somethgarrives, is a real, is fake? ist designed to trky, bring you into a trap all the usual problems wh conterintelligence exists with this ternet informatn. but the basic question, how do i fe about inviting peop to share secrets? hey, man, i am all for it. tavis: secdly, we know why an is so interesting for us as a news story every da what mas them great fodder for a novel? >> i've visited iran in 2006 as a journalist, wrote columns

from theirort "the washington post." i fod the place fasciting and dierent from whatou would imane. we have seen things. at interested me the past several weeks is the urprisingly open society, a place where people can be very critical of their leade. en i went tothe ho city south otehran, i heard ayatollahs the're announcing the leader, sayin he w on the wrong path, did be trained the lamic revolion - that he was betrayg the islamic revolution. these are the same ayatollas whoreeaders, denncing the regimeor what he feels our mistakes. it ia place wre there is much more debatend format -- ferment. i have be so moved watching the iranians in the streets, risking their lives. it has been trag to wat the

otests suppressed, but i think it will coinue. i think sothing now has really broken and iran that cannot be fix. theegime has lost the trust of i people. once that happens, the you have chang tavis: shifting gears, even though we havealked about war,with u and others,obert mcnamara, the dense secretary, now dead at the age of 93. to your mind,is mcnamara a hero for acknowledgg that heade a mistake in vietnam? a villain for what he did in vietna is that in oversimplification? >> as with any werful huma story, u cannot summon up theeither/or, he wrote/a felon -- hero/villain. grewup in washington.

my dad worked for mcnamara at the pentago this story of mcnamara, his intelligence, toughness, in some ways his arrogance, and then terrible mistakes ofheietnam war. i watched very closely. i kn mcnamara and his family since i was a boy. i think my owpersonal feelings are wt gifted people day were when they came t washingt working for jack knedy. they bieved they cld really eate a new coury, such big draams. they got caught in the vietnam war. mcnamara himself was s confent he was going to get through this witntelligence, fige it out. he cann figure this out. he got deeper and deeper in this tunnel of evietnam. i tched as a young man the burden wehing on him, all the fhers. but nothing aboumcnamara's death, -- when ihinkabout

namara's death, human beings make stakes he made a tric one. he tried the restof hisife to uerstand what went wng and to aton for what he did. tavis: the autho of the n novel, "the incremen," david ignatius. up next, from thnew fm "the hurt locker," actor jeremy renner. sy with us. in thecritically acclaimed new film, nd her locker," -- "the rt locker," jeremy renner stars as a mb squad expert. ere now is a scene from the movie. >> i got t sui just go. youhave 45 seconds. go!

>> everybody get back! get back! go! get back! >> ere's too ma locks. i cannotdo it. i connted it off. i am sorry, ok? i am sorry. am sorry! get down, now! tavi to tha scene, quick, what did you take away from how one stays called in ajob like this? d it's that kind of caos. how do you stay calm? >> i cann answer that question. these guys are focused. they'reocused on the task at hand. i'mnly an actor playing at role. as an acto i had to ve the

focus to renderafe thated. tavis: when i s that scene, i thought if you are ev going to ask me, and nobody should ever do this, but i anybody ever asks me to defused a bomb, you have to be quiet. all this screaming and yelling, i cannot concentrate. >> tnk of something you are really good at. are you a good cook? think a ski that u are really go at because it is easy these guys are not afraid. they know what they are doing when comes to sometng like is. they know it iide and t, backwards, forward, eve bere they walkpo it sometimes. that is eas the chaos arod, there is no distraction because this is your focu the only thing in this room is this. however, just an acto playing that rol

the interesting thing i fou most abou it, a it was not the bomb, it was the gy, his time on target, spending time down range, squatting over as they say. there were about a guy shooting at them. they did not liketo be shot. tavis: thtop story for the fi? >>ssentially, the backdrop is th iraq war. it is about warfare. to me, is about three guys t do a fscinating job, dinance disposal, vonteer part o the army, which makes it even mo fascinati. these three charaers, you follow them and their journey, through lif and death and their job and up being one of theost fasciting jobs on the planet and most dangers. tavis: hang played this role,

i recognize your an actor, but what is your ta about why sobody would sign up volunteer to do this? >> i asked that question a lot, and alwa got a different answer. me people wre caree military, just wanted . pay. i think some a littlbit more than others,eightened sense of accomplishment, maybe. iit was what date d aft. they wre stillworking on base. i met some of tse guys, -rdinance. they were poli officers. if you become the job. it isour life, it is yur job, it is rd to goack to somethin punched out and go home. wife takes a turn and it is hard to go back. ink some touched on that. tavis: tell me sometng specific about the character hat you play.

>> james i close to that gy. it is what he was brn to do. it ishat he is greatestt. there are a lo of sacrifice that one s to make, oiously doing something like that. it is very complicated i still did notnow all the answs to wh makes him tick. there is no decion to be made if you do what heoes. tavis: there i a lot of buzz on this film, which caught me by surprise initially, only because there have been a number of iraq films that have notworked, but theris something about this sto line, something about this buzz that the others have not ne so well. wh is your sense of whathat is? >> initially, because it does not really touch war or potics at all. ere is no sneaki msage of

loving, heati anytng. it is abo these people. i feel lke in cinema, if you are engaged with t people, you are engaged. it is not matter what it is. i have seen some other films about the iraq war that a thought or decent. this could be about three bullfighters, my friend, it relly could. an exciting, dangous job that not a lot of people kw about. it is about these characters. if you fall for these charactersyou will enjoy the movie andt will stick wi you. it just happens to that is prevalent and it is hapning right now. tavis: i spoke with e director about this mov not long ago, d i sid to her, i was fascated. was surpred at how they couldo a fil that was this complex and avoid th politics. it is hard to do something like

that about iraq today. they did a really gooob of staying away from politics how did you come at -- how did you connect to the strgle? >> really, do not tnk there is much store. it is a cryptic day, aryptic details, these thre guys in their rotation. the's hundreds upon thousands other people doing the sme thing, but these gu' journey in theast 38days. it just puts on the groun -- just bootas on the ground, andt just yank un d brings you for ride. tavis: you he these guys, and hats off to all the women and m who serve our country, and yet you have a woman who is

directing this film about these guys, and they are such guys what do you make of at? >> as a woman,hysically for her, i think everyone had to do the same thing during the 125- degree heat. she astous me. she is filming. she is extremely intelligence. she is a voyeur, painter, and e just needs to capture. she do not need to kn much else. when your voyeur, you are really gd at assessing thgs going on arou you. shenows there are convsations going on right no she is hyper aware of everying, and all she has to do is capture it. she directed us in a conversation like i'sitting here with you, tav, just conversatio and let us do our thing that we train to do on our own. tavis s walked off? >> and she has a career of making stellar aion movies.

tavis: that is aspecial gift. is real interesting to see how sheot in that world of these guys, understoodit, on some level brought it to life. i think these are detiled, mature accounts of what happened, have happened, and continue to happen tavis: 01 to closeith after puling this guy, yoare still not su you do not undetand him. what is that like spend that much time invested in yourself -- invest in yourselfnd still not say, i do not understa this guy? >> itis a weird feeng to never have a finish line. is fulfilling. it is like a relationsp with the charter. it is alys growing. i do not think about him too much anymore, only talking to u about it, and never once in awhile when i lookt film. it isulfilling. tavis: fascinating, interesng.

jeremy renner is h name. the new film is cled "the hur locker." it is probablyhe mostalked- about fi excted to arrive of all the ones that have come out. che it out. in taters as we spe. jeremy, nicto have you here. that is our ow for toght. a catche on the weekendsn public rao international ccess to ready a pcast on our website, -- access or radio podcast our website, pbs.o. good night from los aeles, and as aays, keep the faith. >> for more inrmation on tod's show, visit tavis smil on pbs.org. tavis: i tavis smiley. to me nextime for a look at the memorial service -- join me next time for a look at th memorial servi for micha jackson a my coersation with berry gordy. >> there are so many thingthat wal-mart is oking forward to ing, like helping people liv better.

but mostly, we're hping build stronger communities ad relationships because th your help, the best is yet to come. >> nationwe insurance pudly supports "tavis smiley." tas and nationwide, working together to improveinancial literacy and the economic empowerment that ces with it. >> ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ >> and by contributions your pbs station from viewer like you. thank you. [caioning made possible by kcet public telesion] captioned by the national captioning instite --www.ncicap.org--