rose: welcome to the broadcast. toght, two washington reports take a look at the city, thobama administration and the form secretary defense dona rumsfeld. we begin with famed reporter bob woodward of the "washingto post". >> here thi very young, inexperienced president haput so much the table. once i had somebody count it up and it wa 131 major initiatives legislion, mor appointmen, major ideas. the dayhis came to me 131 on the front pagof my own newspaper, the "washinon po," president obama issue an executive order sang he was going to clean up the cheseake bay. he is undertaking just about

everything and all of those things are lik planesnlanded at theirport. they're circlingnd we dot know wha order they're goingto land in, whether they're going to land at all. >> we conclude with bradley gram, our "washingn post" peagon correspondent talking about his book "byhis own rules:he ambitions, successes andultimateailures of donald rumsfeld." he was very ick, witn hours after the attac, to focus on some kind o militaryction against iraq and even while planning proceeded to g intafghanistan rumsld continued to gue wiin the administration about wideni the fight atthat point. going after terroristsr sponsorsferrorismike iraq. rose: woodward and grah on washington. next.

captioning sponsored by rose communication from our studi in new york city, this is charlie rose >> rose: bob woodward joins tonight from wasngton. he's an asciatedtor for the "washington post," he's considered one of the pre-eminent invtigative journalists of our time and certainly the most fous. his investation into t

wateate coverup with fellow "washington post" repoer carl bernstein earn him fame and the paper pulitzer prize. he's since gone on to wte merous books aboutashington, including onhe presincy, the preme court and the milary. he recently accompaniedational securitydvisor jim jones to afghanistan and wrotabout the trip in the "st". i am pleased to have him back on this broadcast. welcome. thank you. >> i want to take the temperature of washington today as you see it. wh are pros saying about the presidt so far? >> they don know and there's a lot politics and a lot of rhetoricets thrown arod on bo sides. but thinkeople are ki of... if you're looking for at's going on or what's the sens and obvisly there's ner agreement, but it'sind of t shakespearean lemma is the king a good king or a flawed

king? and people on both sidesust aren't sure. here's this very yng, inexperiend president who's put so much on the table. once i had subpoena countit up and it wa 131 major fish initiatives, legistion, mor appointments, major idea. the day this came to me, 131, on the front pa of my own newspar, the "washington post," president obama issued an executive der saying he was ing to clean up the chepeake bay. he is undertaking just about everything. and all of tse things are le planes unlanded at the airport. theye circng and we don't kn what order they'reoingto land in, whether they're going to ld at all. >> re: there are conventional wisdoms that are in collision. ronald reagan, f example, said

"do a few big things well. make sure u get them tablished." he didn't necessarilyet them all accomplished but he trd. f.r. realized he had an urgency,o therefore he tried to get as mu done as he could as fast as he could. >> and clearly what's interestg about obama is doing, he's veryeice i have. he has a process about "we've got this problem, let's hear everyone out, let's do it. and then heecides there e alof those unlande planes that i think people a... as you suggest, waiting see what happens, seeingf they're collisio, craes or if it's just se of these planes dippear from the radarwhich is quite likel. >> ros you said once in a recent intview that you we searching for th center of gravity about him.

>> yes >> ros what does thatean? >> that ans what going to dene him. rst of all, he's had no real crisis. he's inherited all the crises of the bush administration as says repeatey "not ofmy making, this isot ofy making." but he dsn't he or has not yet had his own crisis. and he's then going to be dened by that cris. the first nin months of the sh administration i spent working on bush's tax cut thinng that would b the center of gravity. of coue, i was dead wrong and i ill have boxes ofnterviews and not if you everrun into anyone who wants torite aook out the bush tax cut, it's there. but i workedor months on it thking it was important, it' portant. but comped to 9/11which still definesur times and the problems omahas,ou know,

it... the bush tax cut probably is not going to go in the history bos. rose: you also wrote a pce th i tnk i'm right about this called "what obam could learn fo from bush" better or worse. d got a huge aunt of e-mail when it nt on line. >>eah, yeah. >> rose: what was that about? >> i was astonhed. it was about peopl being ang, saying gee, how come u criticize bush orsay these are e mistas bush made that obama can learn fm. and then lots of... about half of the peoe ying "oh that's a really good st. thatpplies not just to obama but just t anne undertaking a new office or a proje or a series of responsibilities." for insnce, one of the core

conclusions i reached was you ha to he a openebate in the national security council, on tse issues or in the onomic council on those issues. and it can't be justhummy. it can't bene ofhose things wher it's scripted. you really haveto get the issues out on theable. for instance, vice president cheneyad thes meeting.. lunches with president bush and woulwhisper in his ear "this is what i think you ought to do" and whether yo like or d't like cheney, he's agood vocate. and ey agreed that this was so confidtial they would never tell anyonncluding memrs of the national security council and the wte house staff, cabinet members, what cheney's recommendation was. it ver got tested in a forum. d whatush should havdone

is gone innd said "okay, dick, e vice president, has just recommended and arguedor this. ck, tell them what y think and now let'sdebate it." you can't have somody whpering oline in the leader's ear because. particularlyhen it's somebody who had the influee that cheney did, without testing some of those ideas. i ink, quite frankly, obama does that. i ink he has pretty open debateand if peopl sit there silent, he'll say "wha do you think? >> re: that'sxactly the point that bob gates made, in fact. he said, yo know, occasionay president obamwould not go around the room en in the latest stages when gates was there but that president oba wants tonow and will put everybody in the room on t spot >> and president bush, ase told me reptedly in interviews i d for t... i wrote four

books on him, he said "i'm a gut player, i'm not a textbook player." and i thk that's t way he de lots of hecisions, by gut. oh, i'll take the green one, that'shat i nt. around oma's much more alytical, much me methodical about it. no is that going to necearily lead to bette decisions? you would tend to think so. but, again, don't know. i... is a very unual moment. i wa saying to friends ofine just last night that it's like that summer befor 9/11 in an odd wawhere everyone thinks, well, the economy's going along, it's in trouble yes, but it ems to be going along. two rs seems to be going along. there's noominant story that... the supre court nomination of... i getting lots

of atntion. but really there's not much ntroversy there. , you know, maybe we're in a pre-11 and we'll have a cris or a very sious dining oblem for obama this fa. >> rose: who do you think... what do you tnk it's likely to be? you don't know. >> t you could look at and say "itmay be the failure of alth care refm" or "it may be afghanistan or it may be iran and something tha mig... maybe some unforeseen clas with china." whatever. >> yes now, talk toeople in the white house d they use the term "game changer. what's going to be a game changer?" certainly ahanistan, iraq, another terrort attack could be. alth care reform t workg itself out. i don't ow that that's

necessarila crisis. it would be kind , well, other esidents tried, itidn't work out,t didn'tork out enough. now, predent obama is iving th. but 's the ge changer and peoplen the white house realize. and i think this ivery important, that it's one of the most dangers times for the country. thoughhere seems to be a kind of, well, what's going to happen with these this since and no one knows, there's so my danger pointsut there: ira, north korea, the t wars, the whole financial crisis,he whole state of the economy. i think a politica game changer for president obama could turn out to be the unemploymt rate. it keeps going up. it'soing to, apparently, get to 10% or above10%. there'going to be an

expectation in the democratic party that democrac president can solve that problem. not get bs for everyone, but bring that number down. remeer ronald reagan used to call... talk about the miser index. and it was... a lot of it had to do with inflion. a lot of it had todo with th employment rate. is is an astronomical unemployment rate an the pn in the country, in those famies where people lose their jobs is almost somethg that we cat measure. and the political ramificatns can manest itself in the twep election, 2012 ection. >> i'm going t go back to bush for a anybody beuse what's

inresting to me-- and you alerted me to this idea in those ur books-- they talk a lot about a bunch of stuff as to how th were going to do it, but they never talked about-- cording to you should we do it? shld we go t war? >> particularly in iraq. that's what's so astonishing. and i wrote the second book "plan o attack," about how they made that decision. and a numbef people after the book came out, called me up and said "you kn, whas interesting abouthis book is the meeting ty didn have, which is the meeting to sit down and say okay, we've doneall this planning, we have mitary plans thatthey've updated and changed and thought they made better time and time again. now let's sit back and s should we it?" ere was a momentum, there was a sense of inevitability, there

was a see that it wa going be easy and no meeting, no discussion. i aed president bush "didou ask colin powl for his recommendation on war?" and president bu said "no, i didn't." >> rose: well, did coli powell do evything he could and shou have in order to make the presidenclear what his opinion on it was? >> well, e president saidi knew wt hehought." but when you get into the details and god isin the details here, powell's objections wereoiced very early and ey were in the context of, well let's csider the ramifications of this. if we invade iraq it will take althe oxygen o of the air in foren policy. it will dominate everying politilly. it was tn argument against

war. powell, you know, very strongly heltheelief that esidents decide onars, not generals .... >> rose: ordiplomats. >>ut i'mure that you f you got colin pell on sodium peathol, the truth serum he would ackwledge that his argumentgot diluted i the process and he probably should have been more aggreive in going to the esident and sayi "we reall haven't thought about the consequens this and the dn side and the planning. aree absolutely sure when present bushold colin powell that he decided on war wh the it was 12 minute meeting. >> rose: 12 mites? >> 12 minutes, head to head. and the president askedowell "will you be with me and powell kind of... i tnk

paused and then said "i'lle withou, mr. presint." >> rose: you have said on a program that y think george bush of all the pple writing memoirs will write the most interesting. >> yes, i think it may tually be a memoir that goes right to the heart of some of the questions we have abo the bush adnistration and bush. cause i know he's working on it, i've talked to people who are workg withhim and, you know, that's hope. i thk it's really importan that presints write go memoirs. we've had lots of predentsho have not written good memoirs. reagan's memoirwas a nothin burger. an i've... really argued to people w were involved in that process fo bush, "you' got to go out and talk to pple, you'veot tointerview people,

you've g to list the key unanswered questions a try to dress them." 's not just a nd of stream of consciousness o my thougs from the ranch in crawfor it really shoul be.... >> re: you have said, in fact, that al gore said that the public onl knows 1% what goes on at the white house. >> yeah. that's... he did say tt. i think he said... he wrot his memoir, re, he put hisemoir then they'd know 2% of what went on in the clinton white house >> ros meaning what? >> meaning that the trut doesn't come out. let me just give you an example that... something i've thought about two years ago when i was writing the last bush book. i went with my aistant brad dennis over to interview former

secretary of defense robert mcnamara, who' then 91 and asked him about. he was very opposed to the iraq war, t it rely was a long full morning inteiew about the vietn war. and mcnama, who recently died, this interview-- which m be his last interview he kept ying things, and it's all tad and he said "now don't put this i your notes, this is ofthe record. don't tell anyone. i don't want toe oted sayg this." this is a 91-year-old man. >> rose: that's unbelievable. >> yeah, exactly. he written his meaulpa in 1995, his book "in retroect." supposeally coming totly clean abt vietnam and his conclusion and then here in 2007 at the age of 91 with his lovelyife

sitting there, his second wif diana, goingthrough th and sayi "i don't want this kwn. i don't want to quoted. don'put this in ur notes. i don't nt this out." rose: tell me abo it. after the mov came out, earl marsh's movie ca out, i had both of them on this program and i tried... wewalked through it and he was saying l these things about his experience and afterlife and experien with spect to vietnam. i tried toet him to talk about iraq. and why he wasn't speaking out. did not want to do it. and it w just the same thing. >> b heree didn't want to do itbout his war vietn. rose: right. >> and i'm thiing, i ould puish this ierview or what to do witht. because, again, it's...and this is what makesou in this business ilined to go back to

people, to go ck, to peel it away that in the first, the seco, the ninth, the 0th terview, you still haven't gone deep enough. and thatou have to kin of just dig and dig and dig to fin out wt really happened. d it's not that people are lying or that tre's conscious deception. it's that th are proctiveof themlves, the people the work for or wh with and, most importtly, they think they're protecting their repution. but it may be to certain extent they are. but the job in our business is to get that at out. ani was just astonish. here bob mcnamara still hiding. >> rose: acce, access. i mean, canouo back and back

and back if y don't have access? >> well, of course if they won't let you in the door, you.... >> rose: can't do it. >> you c't do it. but, you know, you can do it. when i was working on the last bu book, there was aeneral that wouldn't talk me. i'd call, i'd leave messages, talk to pple who worked for him, n noanswer, just radio silence. so iound outhere he lived and add, so, the age of 64 or 63 , i went and knoed on his door, there's a perfect timeto knock on somebody's door if they're home and it'sbout 8:3 night because they've had dinner. if they don'thavelans maybe you can get to talk tom. >> rose: gay taleseas just on this pgram and we taped a show a few mutes before you came o in whh he wasery critic of washingt coverage saying

there's too ch access. in wasngton everybody parties with everybody, th go to t sa parties they scrat everybody's back and that that's not in the best interestf good journalism. >> or this is manhattan view of washington journalism. and, you know i d't go to parties with theseeople. maybe accidentally sometimes. i bynd largeon't go to many parties. you know, is just no so. but, you know, talk about access. how do do you find out what somebody did or tught unless you talk to them or unlessou get their dia ortheir documents? the is this sen that people have that somehow if you reprent somody's point of view, you're being spun or taken in. ll, you want to testit, you want to surround it with

reporting and look for notes and documeation and so forth. but i think it's kind a journastic felony not seek from somebodyhat theyid and why they did it and to ilude in your coverag during the watergate period carl bernstein and iould beat down the or of the whi house to get their reonse. and it wou oft be the white house said "ourources are lis." orhey had no comnt. but we would include that and sometimes include that at length. anso i don't know where this ideaomes that don't talk to people who are making the decisions. better to cove the administrationrom the outside. yes. the outside. and, yes, you're goingo talk to all kindf people and youe

gointo try to see if what people are saying is true, but you want to hear what they have to say. >> rose: how would you find your y to the obama administratio you talk to people? you mentioned i travel with general jones to afghanian a pakistan. you knoc on doors. you listen to people and you go back and back and try to undersnd whathey're doing. but believe me-- and i getti dizzy ying to figure outwhere the ceer of gravity is where the story is. ani, quiteonestly, am not sure so'm reporti half a doze stories and the o i'm rking on may be the... or all six of those may be the equivalent of the bush tax cut. >> rose:he other thing you've said about"all the president's men" theovie, which i found intesting, you asked peop about e impression of the

moe and what is so obvious is so much of i takes ple at night. cause that's where you get things de. by knockg on aoor at 8:30 p.m., not at 9 a.m inheir ofce. >> that's correct. sometimes can be in the daytime, somebodyt home or somedy coming to luncat my house wh doesn't hav.. "oh, i've got to go i've got to r outo the next appoint." and soorth. but, yea the nightis a... it cleanses people. puts the a more philosophil posture about at's going on and not justelivering the pattern d the storyline and the plicelations line that every instution,very individual puts out. >>ose: let's just tal about

interestg people. first,im jones. tell me wh you learned ant him in this trip. he w a man you kw, a m you inteiewed before, a man that's been a part of washingn as a mane officer and in varus commands. what did you geton this trip? >> that... i wrote a sty for a "washington post" out part of it. and st of what i wasdoing was for the book. >> ros what book? >> for the book on obama. and, you know, all of that may stay ithe filesecause the big story... t center of gravity will belsewhere. general jones was on a fact-finding missiono talk to people and to lk at thear in afghistan, look at what's going on in pakistan. and he delivered a messa and the message was "let's deal with

the strategy in the afghanistan r that we n with with v wh e troop level, it's now been approved, and not be thinking about more troops and, in fact, you will create a whiskey tango fox-trot moment for the president if y come until with more troop" and at was a veryclear messagthat the pengon and the generals nce the story came out made it clear,ell, theye going to askor what they want. jones made it clearhat wasn't absoluteestriction but he was carrying a message from the esident of the united states that it' already obama's war and he hesto do with the troop level weave there now an we're gng see. but that w an important message to deliver. >> rose: what does he think of hilly clinton? >> you know, i don't... did

not the a kind of what does h think of t cabin membe. peopleeported that the natial security council is kind of working and functioning we'll see. because threal test is n just eryday business. the re test is goi to be when there's cris. >> rose: ineasingly i hear from people of the president's relice on rahm enuel. >> rahm emanuel's as chieof staff is critical. david axeld from the cpaign is central to what's going on. there's a whole campaign team, advisors. they brought in nee tra dunn as the communications director. she's somebody experienced wh lots ofolitical campaigns. close advisorto tom daschle, form senator. bill bradley, the former senor and so forth. so there are all kinds of pele

and then there's what call the really important " factor in all of this, michelle obama a clearlnot somebody who's just going to sit on the sidelines as the presidency goes by. i suspect there is significant discussion in the white house residee between she and the president obvious the presidency and what hs dog and what the priorities shod be. what the decisions shou be. >> rose:more like billlinton and hillary clinton than others? >> yeah, i think so. i mean, she's a smart, engaged woman who h strong views, as i understand it. so that will be part of the peelin you know? trying toind out as much about that as ssible. >> rose: two oer institutions. number one, th congress. are you the ast bit interested in the congress? >> yes sure, i think the congss is....

rose: you've wtten about the supreme court, y've written about the presidency you've written about the military, you've writtenbout the c.i.a. >> and in all of those books and stors, congress plays a role. and sometime it's a big role sometimes it's a role mor on the sideline. but it'suite evident that the presidency nowas concentration of power,iven all of the problems and ws and the financial...ngoing financial difficulties and economic difficulty and that that's where the action i t, you know, congressan do all kinds of things. i think that they are a player in this, but if you want to describe the era, just like i de an attempt to describe the bush era, you've got to

understand the psident. you've got to understand how the president thinks, gsdvice, weighs it, makes decisions, who are e president listens to, who the president doesn't rlly lien to even if they're talkin because th's often the cas >>ose: yourassessment of bush. over the years, your sessment of him, your admirationfor him, yo judgment of him changed? >> well, you know people have talk about how he in the first book, respse the 9/11, going to war in afghastan, that's an acrate... fully accurate account of whatent on. there's some cricisms in the book about him. iting four books aut a president coemporaneously-- i've sd this before-- is like covering fou baseballgames. and anyoneho's cover four baseball games knows that a team can do gat in the first, mixed

in the sond andhen maybe blow the third and fourth. and you can't write about t four game-- which s not occurred when you're writing and covering the first game. >> re: you're reading "lessons in disaster" or u have, a book really, aut national security advisors. >> gordon goldste's book a terrific book. it's about mcgeorge bdy, who was the national surity visor for joh kennedy and then lyndon johns for a couple of years. and is about the vinam war and theoad to vietnam and bundy, who defendedll the decisions at the time and afterwards, in the '90s wanted write a book somewhat like mcnamara, andook back at it. and gordon goldstein was his assistant on ts. and terviewedim and bundy

wrot some fragmenand then ed. and so he put all togetr and it has got...t's just fl of lessons about what a president should do in war and what needs to be weighed an really explains, i think as well as anything, why and how weot into vtnam a why no one kind of put the brakes on it. >> rose: take a look... try to answer this as my last qstion. one, i think you and othersave said there are big stories we didn see well. we, those of usho dohat you do, who do what i , who are daily reporters for the "washington post" and the ew york times," things thate didn't see. what might beone of those ories that we are not focusing on enoug

>> (laughs) boy, that's wt ipend every day workingon. it... you know, someby was joking to me some time ago, said "pase don't do a book on the riculture dartment because we'll ve a famine." and, you know, who knows? maybe swine fl maybe some oth.... >> rose: pandemic. >> ...sease. pandemic will be t story of th era. so youdon't know. you trto cover them all. you try to get a sense of what the presint's agenda is, what he's working on. and what his procs is. and it's... you know it's trying to wk on itveryday. but it reallyis humbling becae you don't know the answerto thereally big questions. >> re: did the stories aut

the salon at the "shington post", at the plisher's house, do dame the post? >> sure. was aistake. it's been acknowlged. th publisher a the editor have kind of... not kind of, 's kind of after no-exces apology. th tried to explain how it haened and i think they have and it never occurred. there was no salon. no mon changed hds. but it was something tha never should he beaunched inny manner, shape, or form. and i thinkthey know that and i think they learned a great lessonrom it. and on one of your sho i remember talking after i'd done one ofhe bush books about gege tenet, the c.i.a director, going in and saying "it's a slam dunk case we can make about iraq having weapons

of mass destruction." and at, obvious, was a giant mistake and somebody afterwds said... after turnedout to be mistake now geoe ten nes qualified to c.i.a. direct because he realizes how wi good innt what you think is good pross you can mak a giant mistake. and i think that catherine weymouth, the young publisher of the "post" has now me a mistake anin a visle one, an embarrassing one and that now makes her qualifd to be publisher ofhe "washington po." >> rose: ieresting. the.i.a., do you think we're just beginning? we've got... perhaps eric holder is going to do annvestigation or appoint a special prosecutor. perhaps the congress is going to be looking into wheer the vice president told them no to disclose things congress

about this initiive to sassinate al qaeda. i mean, is that, mbe, going to be at some poi an emerging and convergi story? >> it could be. i wrote stories f the "washington post" after 91, big headlines that said "bush orders c.i.a. to kill osama bin laden." and that,ou know, i don't thinthere was muchsecret about that. w, whether they were thinking ashese teams and so forth i think is ratr gical. but we'll see. you don't kw what's hien. you don't know what people won't tell you or that they don't put in documents. so i think there should be inquirieor investigatns into all those matters. ey're important. but i don't find it surpsing

that bush wanted tokill osama bin laden. it turns o, as we knowbill clinton wanted to and actually tried to kill osama bin laden. >> ros and you also have suggested that if vice presint t vi president was doing that he would have told the presiden the president wod have known? >> yea and i've... but, you know, we'll see. let'have an inquiry. i suspect-- b sure could be derong-- that that's old business and obama's made it very ear at he wants to look ahead and even thoh congress isndendent and the attorney general has some independent auorities on this, i don't

think we're gointo have big investigations on these matters. >> rose: tha you very much. >> tha you. >> rose: bob woodward. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: bradley graham is he. was a reporr and edir at the "washington post" fomore than 5 yearss. he covered the military and foreign affas. recently publish a biography of foer defense secretary donald rumsfeld, it's called "by his o rules: the ambitions, successes and ultimate failures of donald rumsfeld." e book is based on hundreds interviews iluding eight with msfeld. i'm pleased to have bradley graham at this table again. thank you. >> nice to be here. >> rose: why rumsfeld? for several reasons. no matter how you feel about rumsfeld, you can't ny that he haseen the mt consequential as well ascontroversial secretary defense that we've had nce mcnara.

the rumsfeld story is just a wonderful washington story. it's a... the way i tell it is, it's framed as a kind o tragedy. here'somebody who had a whole career both in government and business ogreat success. he was pickedo be secretary of defense r the second time in his life, the only one who had a second st at the job, he was an experienced washington player a skilled veteran of bureaucrat maneuvering and yet he got a number of things very wrong. he left office ver sparaged and he became such aolitical liability to h president that the presidenwas compelledto ask rumsfeldo go. >> rose: and how did rumsfeld take that? >> think he saw that as coming, you know? he left the day after...e announcehis resignation the daafterhe congresonal elections november, 2006.

anas i write in the book, he and his wife yce had ancipated weeks before that if the republicans were to lose contl of congress, that rumsfeld would likely have to leave. what he didn't seem to know was exactly how it would be chorgraphed. thathe ax would fall onim immediatelafter the vote, the da after. bush had decided, it turns out, before the vote to have rumsfeld leave. but he hn't sat with rumeld and told rumsfeld exactly ming. >> rose: a, in fact, bush had been urg to do it earlier an even athe end rumsfeld had his suorters, inclung dick eney. >> that waabout the only supporter of real significance that rumsfeldhad. >> ros where was kar roveon this? >> karlove had faved rumsld's removal months before. and soad a number of the other president's top aides.

by the time the end came, rumsfeld had lost sport of k membersf congres he had lost support of very seni members the military. so cheney was about his only real supporter. >> rose: how did heecome secretary of dense when george bush 43 is elecd president. why him? >> that,f course; wanot a fore oained conclusio msfeld had been involved somewhat in the bh campan, althou the two were not close. in fact rumsfeldad some real tensions, history of tensions wi bush's dad. >> rose: bush's family right. >> going bac to the nixon/ford years. rumsfeld wasn't bush's first chase for secretary of defens former senator from india,dan koets was. t that interew between bush and coates didn't go vy well. so chene very quickly recoended rumsfeld to secretary of defense. bu met with rumsfeld once,

they clicked and bush picke hi >> rose: and now make the assessment of donald rumeld as secretarof defense. >> you kw, rumsfeld got off to a very difficult start. he took the job really with a main mission to transform many t military. that was a mission basically handedo him by the president. and he went after it with characteristic zea but also with characteristic aggressiveness to the point where within a few months there are already rumorshat he would be possiy the first cabinet casualty. rose: right. >> b this established a pattern for rumsfeldhrough t rest ofis term that are head very difficult relations with the miliry, with congres

withthers in the... the administrati. >> rose: with secretary powell? >> with powl, wh condoleezza ri. and so there was repeated speculation throughoutiss six years at various points that rumsfe would no last. the arc, though, of his time as secretary does have a kind of up-and-dn up-a-down quality. becaus justhen it waseing speculated in lat summer of 2001 thate might hav to go, 11 happened an the afghan war happened and rumsfeld's popularity suddenly surged. he was the star of the news conferences. he became the fa of the war. bush nickned him rumstud. anit looke lake he wasoing to be sere. but, of course, the iraq wa

came and hisortunes began falling. >>ose: okay, there are two things about tha number one, did he want to after 9/11 vade iraq? and did he make that clear to the president >> he lked at the optio of attacking ir in some way it wn't clear that would havever evolved at that early stage to an invasion. buhe wasery quick, within hours ter t attack, to focus some kind of mility action ainst iraq. and even while the planng proceeded to go intofghanistan msfeld continued to argue wiin thedministration about widening the fight at thatoint

and going ter roouss or spsors of terrorism like iraq. >>ose: others? he wantedo go to other countries, too? >> sure, there was a whole st of... not necsarily invad other countries butto target terrorist netwks in difrent placesround the world. rose: like what other untries? you an bomb the or what did want to do? >> he was re selective kds of attacks using special operationsorces. and that also bame a focusf his efforts, whi was to beef up the speciperations command and form these teams that the... >> ros they were neve very success... they were very successful in afghanian. >> initially yeah. >> rose: the c.i.a. and special forc prevailed in kicking out e taliban. >> thas right. >> rose:t is said this about him. one is that wanted to get into iraq and get out fast. he had no stomach for a w

beuse he had other hher agenda ems like transfoing the military. two, that he thought that th woulbe able to do that and so therefore had no understanding of t problems that came after the initi attack was very scessful. and therore he was caut unaware of wha to do. and that's when he said tuff happens. there's also the perception that he never understd afterthat the nare of the war and the counterinsurgency tactics that were necessary dn't believe in them, didn't understand them. and his stewardship of the war after that was incompete. which partf that is true? >> it's a true. and it's rely astonishing wn yogo backnd you loo at the reco how many strategi misjudents were made both in the pre-war planning and in the

immediate afterth of the vasion and tn in later years as the insurgency grew and took root and u.s. militarytruggled to deal with it and it's onef the eat paradoxes of rsfeld that i ite about in the book. because, you know, tre's a lot blame to go around. it wasn't just rumeld. some of his generals didn't quite get the conflict. also certainly others in the adminiration. the present, the vice president didn' allenge the sttegy, didn't challge rufeld enough. ere's a l of rponsibility here but rumsfeld o all of them had spent yearsarning people not go with t conventional wisdom. there was a favorite essay tha heoved t distribute to people

that is the preface t a bk on pearl harbor that war against confusing the unfamiliar with theimprobable. at warns against a poverty of expectations. and yet rumsfd until the runup to the ir war was not ableo anticipate enough of what might come after a then wa very slow after the iasion to entify the insgency and the threat that that posed a then todjust to it. he so very strangely did not provide sufficient strateg guidance to his genels. as write in the book- and is is about a ye intohe occupation already, when the generals are changed and gener orge casey goeso take command i bhdad. casewas given very few... nt to know instructions about th

kind of new countersurgency plans to craft. he basically hado invent , send it back to waington for a amp of approva >> re: abu ghraib. did he understand that? dihe see that's what it w and therefore how horrendo it was fo america's image? >>e still tohis day refuses to accept responsibility for what hpened at abu ghraib. i'm t sayinghat he knew what was going on beforand orhat he should bear direct reonsibility for that. but as an indendent panel who studied this-- tha he appointed-- found, rumsfeld does bear indirect resnsibility for what happened in the sense that failed to provide clear guidance for how trps should handle detainees in the field. he howev, maiains that the

mistreatment at abu ghrb and a number of other military facilities was really more the resultf either bad behavior by individualor inadequate supervision. >> rose: the relationship with cheney it ban with cheney working for rumsfeld. thend cheney was ve esident and rumsfd was secrary of defense. did the relationship change? who was the senior partner? >> tt's a very diffilt relationship to penetrate. >> rose: don'they have hous w out on chesapeake bay next to each other? >> oh, they do and there was a lot of contacthroughout that period. but if there were differences between them, ty managed to keep tm really pretty much known only to thewo of them. snoo soup what does he say whe yotalk to them? do he have a regrets? does hhave any guilt? >> he's struggling. he is still struggling with all

of that. on t questionf regrets, whh i pressedim on in my final interew, hewanted to dismisthe question. he said "that's a forite press question." d i think in pt he isn't sure himse what to think of everything that ppened to him. he's writing his own memoir, it's going t take him anotr ye or more. >>ose: but he had to gi you the outline of the defse he's going to mak of himself. well,'ve gottenits of it. on iraq, for instance, he did write an op-ediece that peared in t "new york tes" st fall in whh he argues that amongther things was in favorof the surgen iraq at the end. now by man other accounts rufeld was not in for of increasing troops in iraq. but as he sees it, his approach to iraq helped lay the basis for

then what finally succeededn iraq after he left. he did very interestingly admit a miste in o area, and tt is ithe area of detainees. anhe volunteered this. where he feels looking back that he left too much the shaping of th policy in the hands of the pentagon'seneral counsel a lawyers and didn't bring in enou policy people and other people. so it's an acknowledgment not of an ror in judgmen he hasn't gone that fa, but its a admission of aistake, at least in pcess. >> re: you think h's at peac or he's anguid? >> i ink at some lel he's still quite anguisd with how it all ended up. >> rose: "by his own rules, the admissions, successes, and ultimate failures of donald

rumsld" by bradley graham. >> thank you. >> thank you for having me. >> rose: tha you foroining us. e you next time. captiong sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access groupt wgbh accessgbh.org