>> rose: and the 40th anniversary soft "ollo" 11 with jeffrey kluger of "time" magazine. >> the numbers that buzz lik to use and that allhree on the first lanng used is 95%.

they say they were 95% certain thathey could have gten back. fuy enough, i asked charlie duke recely from "apollo" 16, he knew neil as well as anyone coulknow neil armstrong and he said he's convinced that armstrong is telng the truth wh he sa it's one small step r man first words were not pre-planned. duke said he wa such a pragmatist. less there was 100% likelihood that he was going to recite those wos, he wasn't goin to waste any time planning them. >> rose: iraq and the lar landing next.

caioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new yo city, this icharlie rose. >>ose: the mission in iraq is shifting from a military role t a civilian role. last mth, u.s. combat troops withdrew from iraqi cities. all u.s. forces are expected to leave the coury by the end of 2011. a high-profile bombi that raised questions about the readiness of the iraqi security rces and the government of prime minist maliki isnder pressure to pass the hydrocarbon law and speed u its national reconciation process. joining me now from washington is ambassar christopher hill. the new u.s. ambassador to iraq. he's e secretary of state and

the lead negotiator in the space walks to end nor korea's nuear program. i am pleased to have him back this broadcast, the first time since he wen to baghdad. thank you for joini us. >> thank you. >> rose: so tel me how this is working out, theithdrawal of american troops to tse bases outside baghdad. >> first ofll, i think it's working pretty well. this is on the bas of a security agreementhat was reacd in the ladde part of last yr with the bush administrati. so the dates forhe withdrawal of u.s. forces from the cities and for the eventual widrawal from u.s. forces in 2011, all those dates wepproved by the bush administrati. so what we're trying to do is implement this and we'returning er to the iraqis se key responsibilities in their cities and, you know, it's tough because you're tning over from a... t world's greatest fighting force the united states, over to the iraqis who are certainly aspiring to

things right, but it's n going to be easy, but ihink it' going well >> rose: are the iqis of mixed minds abou this? they want to see the united states go and at the same time theye worried they may not be ready? oh, i think there's a element of thabecause i they the iraqisare concerned aut is securitynd we he spent a lot time tryingo train up the iraqi forces, worklosely with them, make sure ey react to situations that t way weo. and ovell try to deal with the security. t meanwhile, thearious insurgentroups, they want to somehow humiliate the iraqi forcesprove that they were inpable of doing it and then that would give ri to the recreation mitias as they ha a fe years ago. so the ira forces have a lot of pressure on them. t i do believe t people want to see thr own forces there. i do bieve that iraqis, although ty... they don't... ey want to see us nearby but

believe they want to see some progress inhaving the iraqis reallyun their own securi. rose: what is you role? >> well, my role is really to signal to the iraqi people that the united stes is not leaving i mean, we'r going to have ve serious, a very long-term relationship witiraq but it's not ing to be a military relationship, it going to be a civilian relatiohip as we have with numerous countries arod the worl we're going have exchange programs and education, we're going to have scientific programs, agriculture tngs. we're gointo have a lotf different things. and what the iraqi peop need to do is uerstand that even though our forces are leafing, we a civilians are not going to leave. we're going to have very prodtive relationship. >> rose: atwhat time will you reach out to america businesses and say "come invt in ira? >> well, we're doing that, but the iraqis have got to do afew things themselve for exampl they've got to sort of clean u some of the croeconomic environment ther they've got to lk at the

question of subsidi, things like this. some of these actuallyre-dated saam. theyere from a arab socialist time. anwhereas in easte europe and theis are all gone and ver mu changed, in iraq the are lot of very badeconomic habits from a long te ago. and i thinkoreign firms lookg there, they first he toook at security which is obviously getting better by the day, but they also hav to look at whether this is a country thats really set up to pla by international rules. and that'something else we're working with the iraqis on. >> rose: w can't they pass a hydrocarbon law? >> well, younow, peoe say is is a hydrocarbonaw, it's just about oil. well, it's abo oil t way moby dick is a sry about a whale. i mean, there's aot more goi here. it really has t do wh the relationsh of the center, baghdad, to the... to o of the feral entities of iraq,amely

kurdistan. it has to do wi how you share the proceeds of , of t oil. it has tdo with how you orgaze yourself for the oil. do you he a national ministry, do you have a national oil company? and when you start looking at questions like tha you get into aot of patronage issues loushg the things going to be staffed? it goes into theuestion of which oifields do you try to invite foreign binesses in to exploit first? so there are a lot of fferent things and it's proven to be diffict, to ge thi hydrocarns law done. anplus, i should add, we have elections in the kursh regions coming up just next week fro now, that's jul 5. analso there will be national electis in iraq and as we even know from r own experience, sometimes it's toughto come through with gd leglation wi an election looming. >> rose: somspeculation that the relationship with the kurds is at a ry, very tinrbox vel. >> wl, i think the relatiship with the kur is a

complex relationship. i think somef the stements at we've heard out of u are beal, that is the cabal of the kurdistan area, se of thos statemts are not helpf. but i think they need to be understood in the context of an election that's coming up st next week in the kurdi regional goverent area. so i don't think we need to get too rried about those statements. i ink what we need to worry about are som other this. foexample, there's interl boundary question. that is where does this kursh area end and whe do these... does the resof the country pick u that is, where are the arab ars versus the kurdish areas. ere's a u.n. proces to setp to mediate this,but, you know, you're deang wit some very hard-headed pele on all sides of the equation. so it's not easy for the u.n. and i thk what the ited states needs to do i to b very active here. but ybe not in the lead rol t's see how the unn work this through. there's someing like 14

different disputes along th line. yone who's worked on bosnia or places like that understands how is works and there's no real wholale approach to i you've goto do it retail. u've got to go thrgh each of these 14reas and see what the locacommunities are concern about, is it security,is it that they n't like to see kuish forces in airreas or don't like to see natiol central pole forces in their area? so you've got t work this stuff. it takes time. i thk we got the right process for it. but it's really goingo take some time. rose: what about the relationip between the sunnis and th shi'a, t kind of sectarian warfare tha nited ck in 2005 and 2006? >> well, you know, those were terrible timeshen you had se pple being killedeekly. since thostimes, it's been a lobetter. but it i still no eas and you have to work on the sort of reconciliation process everyy.

now, this is something we t iraq need to do,butit's sothing that we need to taken a interestn, which is not the mean the u.s. should say we will solve your sectarian problems for you. but we can't just say, hey, these e your prlems, leave us outf them. we've got to be engaged in a helpful way and that's what we're trying to do. now the good ns, if you look at the iraqi politicians as they're getting ady for these januarelections, they' looking at what sort of coalition we need to win this election? anwhat you're seeingore and more of is the shiite, who are a...he majority of the people in iraq but still they can't win an election with just a pan shiite coalition, they need reach out and get a kurdi partner and get a sunni partner. and i think that's kind of a good signhat they... all th major players realize the need partners frothe sunni andhe kurds. so the's a tdency in the sort of politics of this to try

to reach out and get some votes from the other side. and that'..hat's aood sign. >> rose: what does prime minister mali seek in washington >> well, he's going to have a couple days, he's seeing some veryenior people her starting of course, wh our preside. he's got an inrest in showing that he's manage this u.s. relationsh. he's g an intest in shong that even after the secity agreement we're going to have thiscivilian relationshiand is civilian relatiship is going to be important fo the iraqpeople. the other day in baghdad i hosted a reception, a diplomatic reception in theiddle of baghd for iraqis who have studied in the u.s. in fac there's one woman there who studied in 1952 at columbia univsity. d it really sort of highlights the fact thatwe've had these changes for many years and that was interrupt by this very

bleak and terrible perioof saddam hussein and these things that say are going rward, things like ientific exchangeset cetera, it's all put together in something called a strategic framework agreement whicwas a sort of companion piece to t security agreement, the security agreement ing the thing that undewhich the u.s. forces are leaving. i think mali wants to show thathere's a civilian side to this relationip thas very important to the aqi people. thers one other thing tt he'll be doing. 's going to be going to arlingtocemetery andhe's ing to be payingis respects to the many thousands of ameran soldiers w've died there. and i dot think that's a very good idea. >> rose:o that you believe the majority of peopl in iraq are glad that we ce. >> i do, i do. >> rose: what's your evidence? >> wl, you know, first of all,

pollindata shows that a majoty support... he supported ou presence. but, younow, more sort o focus groups,f you will. i was downt alace called nasiriya the otheray and i was eting with students from a universityalled key tar university, which is the ne of therovince. and the thirst, hunger they have for re american involvent and theye asking mebout... me of the kids were from law school a they're asking me accot can w getome american laers down, talk to usbout e u.s. legal system." we have lot ofawyers dealing th iraqi judges and ministry types, but we haven't actually ached out to students and the desire of these l students to sort of se and touch america waseally telling. same with these ds who are learning english. ey have nev talked to an american... to a native saker elish and they just wanted

get more om us. ani was very pleasedthat within days of my trip there we re able to send some people to begin this relationship with a smaluniversity. anwhen you talk about contact, when you talk about aching out to people, again, y've got to do itne person at a time, one mayor at time, one student at a time it's really... it tak time but we' going to get there. >> rose: isyatollah sistani playg apositive role? he is, he is. he is very rered shi'a cleric who has essentially... during the whole issue of americ troops as they were negoating the so-cald security aeement he says american troopshould be tread like guests. and anne knows aboutarab society knows guests is theost exalted posion. i mean, being a guest, it's not likeour mother-in-la staying with you, it's a rea guest.

and everyone knows thatthat ans layff the oops. you know, thihas been a tough situation. you know, the sha, who are by far the larges majority in iraq therare researchly no shi'a majoritystates in the mide east. so they're looking out at a sunni kait, at a sunni sau arabia, sui syria. i me, these states that have never had a shi'a leadership. iraq is.... >>ose: how about iran >> well, there's the issue. the ly othershi'a majority and shi'a-run sta in the middle east right now is iran. and so whate don'tant is a situation where the iraqis feel somehothat that'she only country wl besupporting them. now,rankly, the iranians play a very negativ role in iraq and

they have not been respecng their vereignty and, frankly, when youook at some o the violence ithe southernart of the country, think you could put yo finger o a very mavolent influence from the iranians. >> ros why are ty doing that? what do theyhope to gn? >> well, younow, the troubl with the mdle east is everyon thinks everyone ee belongsto them. and i think the iraniansfeel th somehow if you look through the histor of psia you see that iraq was...r a good part of ira w uer persia and they look at the fact that it's shi'a and they really ink that somehoiraq should be subservienstate. that is, they're not respecting their sovergnty andcertainly at the iranians fea about iraq is iraq's democracy now, lord kno it's not a perfect mocracy, it's got a lo way to go, but le me tell you, the iraqis at lea can run an election. so ihink the iranians have a lot to b concned about from

iraq's side. and,f course, the iranians are very much worried aboutheir own internal proems. rose: i assu we've communicat to them to stopt, aren't we? >> i think the iranians are very we aware of our concerns about this malevolent influence. >> rose: my... i assumeeneral petraeus told em, actually. op it. >> i don'tant to confirm any individual dcussions, but i ca assure you the iranians ve beenade well are of our concerns. yoknow.... >> ros what are the nsequences if they don stop? >> well, i mean, you know, the ir wants aetter relionship withs, with the world, there are a few thingsthey've got to do, starting with the nuclear program. but so they've got to, i think pl a morroductive role in ir. you know iran and iraq need to have a good regulationship in the long r but it' got to b based on mutual rpect. and those us whoive in the green zone occasionallyget ese 107 millimeter rocts

coming in. in som cases coming rit into where we live, and they're all made in iran, weould sort of like tsee the iranians do someing about that. >> rose: speaking of tt, you almostot killed theor day. how close was it? >>ell, it was a... it was... well, you ow, i wa in a motorcade, we d six vehies an unfornately someone set off a roadside bomb and founately we were all okay and we drove through the smoke and went on about our business. >> rose: were you targeted for that or did theyimply wanto kill some americans and they saw this morcade and they said "here goes let's get this one"? >> hard... is reall hard to say, charlie. i know there's an ongoing vestigation, thing happen. all can say is i've got some ofhe best securityeople in the world. they follow the bestractices the world and, you know, driving overo the studi about a half hour ago,ome car cut in front of our... m taxiand i saw myholeife go before my eyes. so, yo know, stuff happens.

>> rose: (laughs) wait ainute. e you saying it's worse than in washington than baghdad >> defensive driving. t i will say some ver bad thgs continue to happen in iraq andll i can say is we' t some really talented people decated to dealing with it. so much so tha we're not curtailing wt we do. in fact, we're getting ou there eting iraqis and trygto make it a betterlace. >> rose: a couplef last questions. one, al-sadr. moqtada -sadr, what's the status of his o efforts to the collaborator. either participate and be part of the solion or bepart of the problem? >> heasn't... i can't say he's been doing much participating. and, in fact, the sadrist, as they're called, have not been very hellful in the parliament there. so i think he's got a ways to go before he's a full participant. on the other hd, he ju spent

about a year or so studying to be promotedin the sysm of shiite clerics, so maybe he was able to puck up some things in school there. this is gay who really has not embraced a system that other peopleave embrad. and what we are trying to do and indeedwhat the iraqisre trying to do, is toet more d more groups to emace politics and put dow thei 107 millimeter rkets. d there's bn a lotz loof success, a lot of hard work on this a certainly a lot of the oups that wer in the sadrist camp are very much in the litical side now. the problem is, they're not being all that constructiv >> rose: andave the sunnis who were part of the akening been absorbed intthe government and are they being met with open arms? >> yeah, you know, that's bn goinwell. these are... we're talng about sunni tribesn anbar province who te to be very sort of

rural type of suns and aot of t militias that were part of this sunni insurgency have tually switched des and, of course, they're vy much opposed to al qaeda-- andho wouldn't, because al qaeda i sily out to kill peoplend they don't really se to care who. so i think th so-called awening movement that you mentionebut also these militias whoe beenrought in and paid for by the govement, that's going pretty well. i mean,t's not perfect. we sometimes hr that such and such a unit didn't get their pay last month. >> rose: or were shot. or were shot. >> orere shot, yeah, yeah. there've. you know, this is a place th people pick up a gun pretty qckly and where tre's a lot of violence a given day. again, you have to look at the trends you have to lookt what it was like a year ago, at it was like a mth ago and i think ovall the trends are in the right direction. >> rose: tre are rorts that there was so tension beten

erican military leadersp and iraqi mitary leadership and that the americans were very concerned because the iraqis sa "youcan't leave the base until we tell you so. >> well,yeah. i've see these reports there are a couple of newspaper stories abouthem. you know,'m... i'm sure some of tse things have happened t i can tell you, one thing that's very ear in the curity agreement that w reached with the iraqis at the end last year, that the bush administration reaed with the iris, which is our guys have a right to defend themselves and they will defen themselveand one can tell em they can. so i'm notaying that there wot be disagreements, but we have worked very hd with the iraqis, we've worked very hard to hav a cmon operaons center. we've worked very hard to have trsparencys so they know wn we see a threat t iraqis see the same threat. we've worked verhard on sort

of meshing this. and it's not easy and i'm not sayinghere aren'troblems and there won't be additiol problems, but, agai, i tnk it's in the rightirection and i the fact that the troops are out of the cities is a very gd gn, a good signor iras abily to take over their own security and good sign f our troops to me home and come home with a sense of a mission well don so i think wee going to keep working is and i'm not saying we're not going to he a problem next tuesday or mething like that, but we're going to keep at it. >> rose:nd what happens if in this election next years there a referendum voted by theiraqi citize saying "we wt the americanout of here by the end of 20, not 2011"? >> welctually, according to the security agreement, they can have a referendum but they would have to notify us within year and then a year later we would be out so if they ha the ferendum and the best that

could happ, really, is... i mean, people ving for that ferendum is if we would be out when we said we're going to be out. so i don't think weave a problem now on the refendum. i thk we're here according to security agreeme. i think one ing that was very importanfor the iraqisis will the americs do what they said they'll do? d what was very important for us is to show the iraqis yes, indeed, w will. you want us out of baghd, we agreed to be out of ghdad, we're out of baghdad. so i think that made a deep impreson in iraqi society, a very pitive impression of all willingness to wo with them as a soreign and our willingns tohow them this kind of respect. >> rose: so you're convinced that the vast majority of iraqi belie the united states not there to stay and the united states is not there toake their oil? >> you kw, if you look at opinion survey, there are iraqis who bieve that, but all we can do is to ams clear facts whh will demonstrate the

contrary. and i think increasiny and in fact if you look at me of the recent opions surys, re iraqis bieve that we arenot planning to stay as a result of our moving out on june 30. so ihink it is process that is convincing iraqis of o good intentions. >>ose: when we say "move out," we're talking abou military forces, aren't we? >> yes, we'realking abo... actuallye're talking about bad and mol. the other areas we hadlready moved out of the urban areas. so people talk abt june 30, but wasn't somhing whe you we seeing hundreds of tanks mong around. it was remaini fces in badad or remaing forces in mosul. now, thosere two of the toughestreas. you know, baghdad i enormous and there are a lo of different group there is and mul, as you know, is on that fault line between e kurdish lands and the sunni arab lands. so these are tough are. but we did move out. th iraqi serity forces hav

set the own checkpots and doing their own patrollin and believe me, ty've been taking some hits, they've been taking some casualties. hasn't been eas at all for them. bu you know, they're goi to learn. they're going too a tter job and i thinthey can handle the chore. anthe rean i think they can hale the chore is, you know, the world's greatest fighting force, the u.s. milita, is so turning out to be t world's greatt tiners and we have worked soard with the guys and i think it's goi to be okay. >> rose: finly this. tom freedman wrote a lumn the other day ande said "the big question for iq is what kind ofcountry do they want to be." i'm sure you saw that. how woulyou answer that? >> yeah, i heard he was in country. unrtunately he wasn't able to get to baghdad or to nasiriya where i was that day s i wn't able t talk to him at all. but i think the iraqis do need to decide what the want to be. you kn, there's lot of talk

about the kurds and whether they want to stay. but,ou know, frankly, the kurds already have a very tonomous region in the north. and then when you lookin ghdad, you know, who constitutes the iraqi government? you may notice that t president of iq is a kurd. you may notice that the foreign minister ofiraq is a kurd. yomay notice theeputy prime minister, the guy involve with a lot of this oil busess, is a kurd so the kurds are actuly doing irly well. and i think wha iraq needs to do, needs to work through is the idea that everybodyeeds to get a bit of a share is whole pcess. so they can't have aituation where it's winner take all. anso thisis sometime difficult. i know that prime minister maliki in pting together a government has to have people in his vernment who are from a different pay and may n say all thoseice things about him when he's not in the room. so it's a tough kind of democracto put together,but i

think that's what they want and we'r hopeful they'll have the tools to achie it. i'll make onether point that iraqad a... they had somebids on some oil fies and one of the main oil fieldshether went to a consorum of itish petroleum and a chinese cpany. and if that works, iraq is going to be able to double their current oil production probably as much as double. and if they'reble to dothe remaining oil fids, they are gointo be on a par may not up to saudi arabia but they're going to be moving up theine in terms of a country producing oil. and that gives them some real possibilitys tpay for servis at their citizens need and to rely kind of work on things. but the iraqis have h a problem over the ars, ieed, over the centuries, of being isolat. so this time they've got to figure out how to reach some of those sunni neighbors, wo with them and then reach out to the world, have good relations in europegood relationsith us.

and i thin if they can achieve this kind of internationalizaon, they could have aery positive..they could be very positive entity smacdab in the middle east. i ink all politics should start with aap. and if you loo at aap, iraq is rht in the cter. >> rose: are you convinced it was the right thg to doo inva iraq? >> wl, charlie, i've got a l ofiews on thatut i'm not sure any of the isrally relevant rig now. what i trying to do is make sure our relationship becomes civilized and ma sure thatur troops are able to leave on e schedule that we've agreed and i believe that is...hat we e on hedule. and i'll let htorians decide ether this was the right thi to d >> rose:orth korea. what can you tl us abouthe son who might be the next present of north korea? >>well, you know i don't do that account right now. ve passed the station wagon and moved on. >> rose: i'm n doing very good at getting you to tell me anything.

>> but i can tell you that what is goingn in rth korea is they he a domesticroblem, a succsion problem. they have kim jg il, w's defitely not kim ng well, he's kimjong very ill. and they're tryingo deal with a very tghsuccession because he didn't ma any plans for it. so we ha this kind of odd situation of a sort of monarchy in a commist country that, frankly, isn't working. and i think e most important thg we have de andontinue to do iso work wit our partners. are really flying in rmation with the south korns whici think is criticalto th solution. we are worng closelyith the chinesend of course withhe japanese. so i'm kind o hopeful that we've got e right policy and i'm peful that when the north koreans get throh, this they get through this, they will see that we are unified and they're going to have to deal withs.

rose: mr. ambassador, thank you very much, a pleasure to see you again and have you on this program an hopefully next tim in n york. >> tnk you very much. >> rose: or baghdad. >> oy. y time. love to see you there. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. now an excerpt from our web site about politico, which is all about politics. the interview is tomorro night. he'sn excpt. health care, for exale, is he going to get i done? >> i thinkost observers think there's a better-than-en chance that hll get i done. i think pele like max baus nt to get it done, the democrats on th hill he control majorities in theory want to get i done. i fo one am very kept l ani thought from day o that will definehis presidcy the first cup ol years will be this

so cled big bg theory of taki a crisis, knowing pple are uneasy and thinking youcan do big thing and a lot of thin simultaneously. it looked and sounded brill yantd a uple months ago, it doesn'look and soundso brilliant when y're trying to do cap and trade, reregulaon of the u.s. economy andealth re reform multaneously. it's difcult. coress has a hard time dng onthing at a tim well and doing it efficiently. dog three things of this magnitude simultaneoly when u only have a couple of months to do it is ve difficult. and he's tryg to do it now at a time where you real see the pos starting to shift. you see independents and moderate docrats each week th number is goingup, peopl who ar uneasyith trying to do so much so fast and spending so much mon so quickly. >> rose: and they say... they're looking at wt's happening to jobs andlooking at... so you don't ink he'll get it and certainlnot get it by august 7. >> definitelyot going toet it byugust 7. does he t it rater in the year? i think it will be veryard. members of coness will home

in august. there's gointo be millions of llars targeting those moderate and consvative democrats. the voters are already uneasy with the health car plan before it gets demagogued. imine afterwards. it will be interting to see their faces and their reactions when they come back to washington iseptember. if they're rattled, think it will be very very difficu for him to get anythin that resembs the plan tha he set out to get four or fiv months ago. >> rose: is theajority opinion that he should he delayed alth care even though has an imperative and that he should ha delayed it and xed the economfirst? again, majority... i it a growg opinion? >> wlive in the moment at politi, i tryo... at least have one foot not living in the moment. wee going to see it's brilliant if he does it. i don't que agree with jim. with this congressional arhmetic-- and arithmetic is decive-- they can get somethinif they call viory, even if the details chae. and youe going to say is is never going tohappen under an circumstances. rose: republicans are sayin this is waterloo if he doesn't say this.

democrats own theity. for better or worse they own the city and we'll fd out if it's for better or worse in succeeding electio. i thin there will be hlth care and. i think to me the big question hoverg over barack obama rightow is what happed in006 when the democrats took back congss. 2008, huge majoritie and a election. was that a rction to bush or has thisountry fundamentally changed? and shifted on its axis, if you will? a and we're just aifferent eological country that is a much bigger believer in government, much more similaro europe in our attitudes about the role ofovernment and the private economy. my guess is that we ve made that shift, but.... >> rose:ou think we have me the shift to a differe attitude about the rol of gornment in the ecomy? >> in a very fundamental way. in aeryundamental way that wee not living in a reaganr a clinton era. in someays obama is as far

from clinton suzuki as he is about reagan. >> we have to sa our arguments for off camera. >>ose: why? >> i'll tell you,here's about 70 hou democrats that hol ats that bush won in 2004 i think they would disagree with you. i think they don't think tha e countryas fundamently shifd. they don't thi that they wt big deficits or quick fast governme action. >> rose:ou say the country could fundamentally shift and t want big defici, or not? let me rephre the question. uld off funmental shift without ving big deficit? >> i think the barometer that i'm looking are those conservative to moderate democrats because the republicans will never wk with ama. they have no inceive to and theyever are going to. ose 70 people are still saying the country has n shifted. jo could be right. he could b smarter and closer. >> rose: do you think so? >> tse are legislators that can be bought, as they demonsated on cap and trade. if you've g something like a majority you can say,ey, texas reesentative you can keep pollutg in your district. i think they've got a fighting

chance, which is remarkable. >> rose:60 members ha a fighting cnce? >> at be a figing chance. but it's big step if they d . >> re: in may of 1961 esident john f. kennedy decled "i believe this nation should coit itself to th goal before this decade is out landing a man on the moon and rerning him safely to th eart" eight years later that mandate became a reality. today marks e 40th aiversary of "apollo"1, the fir man mission to land on the moop. the na crew included missi commander neilrmstrong, command module pilot micel coins and lunarmodule pilot edwinbuzz" aldrin. on july 16, 1969, the astronau blasted off from the kennedy space center in florida. ur days later on july, 196, armstronand aldrin bame the first humans to walk on the

moon. >> that's one sll stepfor man one giant ap for mankind. >> rose: it's been estimated that 5 million pele across the world watched the video brdcast of the moon landing. armstrong himsf has said the historic event "the importan achievement of "apollo" was the demstration th humanity is not forever change chained to this planet and our visions go rather farther than that." over the years i've spoken with a number of astronauts about their space experiences and he is a montage of them. >> i was standing on the surface looking up in theblack sky at mother earth, planet earth, which is four times as large as the moon a we look at it. >> rose: thas amazg, four times large. >> beautiful color, thelues of the ocean, the white icecaps, clouds, you can see the outlines of somof the continents. it was just an overwhelming sight. but the thing thatstruck me is that, hey, that places kind of all. it's frage. it's not as infini as we think it is when we' down here o

the earth. and then all of a sudden i thought, well, now we hav these people that ar confronting each other potically and militaril all over the place. >> rose: screwing up the environment. >> and screwing up the environmen and what a shame it is that we're not taking care of the planet, the resources, and finding t about the environment. was an emotional moment. i actually went littleit. i hadn'txpected to dothat. >> rose: just overco by...! yeah. >> rose: you're aveling.8... >> almos five miles a second. u're dealing with tngs but you train for this and you train rit... so that you know everytng there is to know about that vehle and that craft. and i guess i wld describe it no as fear buts apprehension. i've terme it constructive apehension because you're focused and you'reware of every little shake at thing makes but you're also ready to do whater is needed if sothing goes wrong. >> rose: what is weightlessness like? >> when you first get into it,

it's a littleifferent. your head feels fl like if you're leaning over a horizon bar when you're a kid, you used to do that. u can float aroun your stomachs a litt queasy. people can take i, it takes a while to get used to it. after about x hours it's a very tranquil, a very lett tharj i can environme. people stay up therefor years, it's coming back to earthhat's so difficult. sdmup you give me any insight in terms of how you skolly preparedor the idea might not come back. sdmup >> i was 23ears old as a second lieutant and i didn' have a big support system. i was alone in that airplane. anthey were out to g m the other guy that causes a person a lotore concern about not coming ck wh you see thatlast week someone di't come backrom the mission. we get usedto those things, we

see friends training pilots who ve accidents who don't survive. >> rose: joining me no is jeffrey kler, senior writer for "tim magazi,'m pleased to have him here here's the cer story, july 27, "time" magazine, 40th anniversy of "apollo" 11. moon struc a closeupook at the 24en who made the voye anhow their lives were changed rever. let thas just an azing idea. at did they have in common? well, i think they d a fair number of things in common. i thinkhey had a lel of imperer theability that those o us who have no done itan't begin to fathom. one of the thingsthat made me firs interested in n writing a book on "ollo" 13as when saw jim lovell many years after the accident o television talkingbout having the impulse to panic. and tt's a questn he's commonly asked "did you panic? did anyone in the spacecrt panic?" he said "ihought about panicking but en i decided t

to because i didn't thk it uld get me anywhere." and i was struck by the nonchalance with which h said he decided not to. pan sick a parasympathetic respse. thers only a handful of pple who can make it a voluntary response. >> rose: they're all good pilots. >> certainly. they we all good pilots and they we either te pilotor mbat pilots. as that clip from buzz just showed there were a lot of men who risked their lives in combat other men who risked their les nproven vehics which by the way is in some se taking a bigger chance. as one of folks i spoke to for the story poind out, oe you get those kind of menn a spacecraft, off selselected group athat point because they've already learne to turn their normal responses into lculated and contained responses. i asked pete conradnce if he s nervous onhe surfacef the moon. again, not unlike the qstion

you ask zz, knowing that if hi engine didn'tight he wasn't coming home. and he said "noi was a happy guy on the surface of the moon." he said "i thought about that the fit time i was i earth orbit and if my enge dn't lit i'd b justas stnded and just asdead it onlyeems worse if i on the move." >> rose: whatwere thelans if the engin didn't work? >> they would ietly eire. >>ose: quiet? >> well, quietly expired would imagine these men would have gone up to the moment of death with the same kind of self-containment a dignity with wch.... >> ros but was there a plan can i get bac so we' give you this pill to to slee >> no, and it'sunny you should say that because i opened "apollo"3, the bookim and i collaborat on on the boo "lost moon" which became "apollo 13" opened the book with just that questn. the idea of poison pls. it was a very common rumor the poon pills did notxist. and jim kind of laughed when i

asked him a said "if y nted to die in ace, you could do it faster just by openg a vent, you'd be de in five seconds." rose: because of th climate? >> becse it would be a sudden vacuum. theinterior atmosphere would rush out into the vacuum outse and your blood would literally boil and you'd be dead in conds. and he said"but we would have stayed ales long as could broadcasting back atever da we could, that's our job, we were there and we woul have done that job until the end of our ability do that." >> re: were they 100% certain they could get them back? >> thenumbers thatuzz likes to use and that all three on the first landing used is 95%. they say they were 95% certain th they could have goen ck. funly enough, i asked charlie duke recentl from "apollo 16," he knew neias well as anyo cod know neil armstrongnd he saide'sonvinced that armstrong is telling the truth when he says it's one small step foman first words were n

pre-plned. duke said was such prague ma technal assistance. unss there was a 100% likelihood that he w going to be able to reci those words he wasn't goingo waste any time planning them. he had a fixed amount of time to wo and a whole lot of things to do and ts was a task that didn't need to be n until he needed tdo it. >> rose: when you spoke o him you sa as muchs anybody could get know neil wh didyou mean? neil armstng is...he word that least fairly used to describe nei armstrong i eclusive." he's not recluve. he's exceediny quiet. he's a man who's exceeding missn oriented and wk oriented. there's a wonderful sto the asonauts tell about when he was fing the.l.t.v., the lunar landing training vehicle whic basically looke like a giant flying box spring with four legs. itas aonstrously dangers machine and they would te it to a thousand feet and play with it an land and thatas a nar lander trainer. andhis... this is about a year before he wento the moon. the l.l.v. spun outof control

il had to eject, he didn't have much clearance above the ground he ejected, the l.l.v. crashed he parachuted down safely next to it a when people next saw him an hour later, he was at s desk getting his paperwork done. nothingustled neil. >> rose: i that w he was chosee >> that'sne of the reasons he was chon. he was chosen also-- anthis is what chr craft, one of the great lio of nasa wl tell yo- he was alsohosen because that's whe the rotation was heaid, you knowno slur on any of the pilots who flew any missns. >> rose: ybody could have ge up the rotation? >> the rotation came up, if "apollo 1 hadn't worked pete conrad would have beenhe first man onhe moon. if "apollo 12" hadn't worked, al shepherd would have bee first and he and "apollo 13 13-" lar switch becausehepherd needed more traing time. so whoever was next in le would haveeen the first. >> rose: is the one first amonequals? >> i asked chris craft that. if you ask me i would sayim

lovell. i'm biased. jim and have woed together. >>ose: "apollo 13" "gemini 7." >> rose: tom hanks. >> exactly. jim wasnd still is a fantaic rudder and sck man. frank boorman, comnder of "apollo 8" was considered a true geni in terms of his natural feel. heas a caion astronaut but a terrifically adept o. but chricraft, when i asked him that question, said "who is t best pure pilot whover flew under your xand?" and he said "i'm not trying to give you theappropriate answer. i alwaysaid theest crew that's fing is the best th's... that's ever flown is the one that's currently flying becausthey have built on the achievements of every other crew before tm and the next one will be bter than th are. >> rose: somebody wrot- maybe you-- thats good as they were in mechacally getting up there and back in terms of all the

skil of pilots and all t skills they had learn that it sn't ivitable about them that they woulnot be leer kl. >> that's righ jack swigt point that out. anody who listened to those tapes and ard those transcripts ow that. here y have men lking at the first moont the... the fit ok at the moon. and the rds comingout of eir mouths are "azing, fantastic." well, it is,ut the large majority of peopleould have something that was somewhat more er kl to say. that'shy buzz's first description, that wonderful oxymoron "maificent delation" a brilliant piece of word play that came out of his mouth spontaneously. but jagwigert pointed out you di't get manypeople saying that becausehe very thing that qualified them go to the moon, clinical enneers, detachment from what theyere doing,

disqualied them from speaking about it very poetically. if you can sta back and you can muster the internal appriation for wha youe dointo speak about it poetical, you'll get erwhelmed by the enormity of what you're dng. >> rose: how wou it have been cong back? ist difficult to adjust? >> at somelevels it's difficult for all of them. lovell,ho is to my experiee the oni know bestand the one o has adjusted the most easily even tse said "t spotlht goes o, it's a little chalnging." the psychologist i spoke to when i wa reporting this story said "look, you have people who are rrifically competiti, they are terrifically mission oriented and then t mission ends and the there's aeal sense alst of grieving. almostf that kind of process of loss." it no coincidence i think that a good number of them-- fivef them-- went into politics. loll declinedut he was give

a... hardpressed by the reblican national commiee of his time to run for the sene. but five of them did run because you have that same kind of ferocious competitivene building up to açóingle signature event and election inead of a liftoff. and, y know,t gave em that sa kind of thrill. now, governing once you're elec is a lot ss excitin th flying a scecraft to the moon. >> ros alan be became a painter. >> alan bean became a paint an beanas... always was an artist before he flew. i suspect at if alan beanad not flown to the moon and later got alittle aperitif tas of it again when he flew sky l, i have a feeling alan bean would have never become a painter beuse as a flier he always would have wted to be achieving that nexthing. he alwaywould have been nting to get that adventure itch satched. once you've beeno the moon and command add sky lab mission, you ve had that itchscratched and

i thinthatave him coetitive m likeim, the piece and sense of satfaction to say "now i can go and pursue the gentler part of myself." >> rose: what can you say abt the space proam today? >> well, the sce program today is in the same flux it' been in for the last0 years, unfortunately. the austine commissio appoted bpresident obama is bringingack their recommendations fothe futu ofarticularly the lunar program, the manned program in august. ifasa does ts right, i believwe are closer to getng back to the moon, which i believe is a gooddea. clos to getting ba to the moon than we'v been in along, long time. than we've been sincehe 1980s. >> rose: why suld we go back? >> i think we should go back for a few reasons. i think there are scientific reasons to go back. i thk going back does... could pa dividends in tms of coology and explation and as

a traing ground for betting back to mars, or getting on to mars, but the awer that you can't give before a senate committee but i lo to give i that..because that's whate do. we're an idiosyncratic oft irrationalpecies that get our greatest satisfaction from the things that make no intuitive sense. dance hano survil value, music has no survival value, art has no survival val nor d beautiful buildings. we could ild slabs if we wanted. but smog about a magnificent piece of art rising 70 stories high that also has function fillwith us this sense that we're capable great things and that we're never going to e. i thk that's what travel to another world does. you get there, youhink "i as an individual y be fite but m a member of th species that's capable of these magnificent pageant-like events" and that's a od thing. >> rose: someone said-- and u'll probably know who it was-- why do you climb

mountains? because they're the. >> because they're the, exactly. and once you've ne it, you realize this insurmountabl thing turned out to be suountable. what ds that not l you feel that y can do if you've suounted this you can surmnt anythi. and i think that's the biggest reason we . now, it's hard to tell a fding committee that, t i think in our hearts if we were being candid we would acknowledge there's scientific vidends, therare political dividends but there's also spiritual divinds and they are probably more valuab than any of the others. >> rose: spiritual dividen? >> spiritual dividends inhat sens and i don't an in terms of organized religion although w astronauts haveome back spiritually awakened. but when say "spiritual" just mean in a sen, they give yoa sense theres a large universe beyonus and we' capable of getting tha perspective. and the al shepherd te you ayed, jim vell talks abo th, you look bk on e earth you see this infinely

destructle thing that just floats in this fantaically hostile environment of spa. unless you've bee there, you don't get a senseof how fragi and how perfect the earth is and how eily it can be broken. you n't get a sense of how small it is. you dot get a senseof how everything that er happened in human history is contain on that tiny blue dot. you goo space, yo gethat. rose: president obama's is said to be reconsired everytng. >> he is reconsidering everythingyes. and my ccern i that h will consider to the point of unpluggingt. i have a feeling, if i were predting, i have a feeling what we will do wl be to continue a lunar program. there's a very pragmatic reason. it is huge job cator. when tybegan... when th put out help wante calls for the new constellation spacecraft the new orion orbiter there were

600 spotand i think it was lockheed, i forget theame of which contract is doing it, th got 30,000pplications for 600 spots. it's a big stimulus t that part of private iustry. and i think that's important. i suspect president oba will scale down the cost aittle bit go witexisting boosters repurposed for han flight as opposed to buildin new boosters. i think we'll still . >> rose: so when ll we go to ma? >> well, mars... dave scott speaking today i washington, the commander of "apollo 15." he said "the problem with that is it cost rghlywo jill i don't know dollars. the jill ion't know was h figure. it is very expensive and an order of magnitude harder than gointo the moon. but if we can get back to the moon b 2020 and i see reason why we c't get back to the moon by 020 if we simply choose to, go i think we could be on mars by 030 2032. it's not all that for away. >> rose: thank youor coming. >> thank y for having me. >> rose: "time magine, jeff

kluger, 40th aberave air is of "apollo 11." acloseup look athe 24 men captioning spoored by roseommunications captioned by mediaccess group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

jack earey made his living fiftfeet off the ground.

it was fun. itas different. you're halfway scared, but a that age you're too dumb be scared. pole by po, road by road. ck was literally linking people together. when first started, i was just supplying power f the porch light. the flow of power ally is the flow of inrmation. and blic tv is one of the bests. it gives you a chance learn something that you nevernown before. it makes a better-edated public. ys like me laid the grndwork, and we want toee it put to good use. that's why jack included his public television statio in his will. consideroining the community ofeople who want public televion to span generations. next ti on "secrets of the dead". history tells us the spash

easi conquered the mighty azts. this, of cours is a very rose-tinted view of e reality. announcer: but a grueso find suggests history might be wng. bones from an aztec grave site are proving that spaniards were captud, sacrificed, and eaten. woma the priest would tear t heart out and offer to the sun. announcer: azt massacre, on "secrets ofhe dead."