>> rose: and the 40th anniversary softapollo" 11 with jeffrey kluger of "time" magazine. >> the numbers that buzz les to use and that all three on the first lding used is 95%.

they say they were 95% certain th they could haveotten back. nly enough, i asked charlie duke rently from "apollo" 16, he knew neil as well as anyo cod know neil armstrong and he sa he's convinced that armstrong is tellingthe truth when he says it's one smallstep foran firstords werenot e-planned. duke said he was such a agmatist. unle there was00% likelihood that he was going to recite those words,he wasn't going to waste any time planning them. >> rose: iraq and theunar landing next.

captiong sponsored by rose communications om our studios in new york city, this is chlie rose. >> ros the mission in iraq is shifting from a military role to a civilian role. last month u.s. combat troops withdrew fromraqi cities. all u.s. forces e expected to leave the countryy the end of 2011. ahigh-profile bombing that raised questions about the reiness of theraqi security forc and the government of prime minister maliki is und pressure to pass the hydrocarbon law and speedp its national recoiliation process. joining me now from washington is ambasdor christopher hill. the new u.s. ambassador to iraq. he'sthe secretary of state and

the lead negotiator in the space walks to end nth korea's clear program. i pleased to have him backon this broadcast, the first time since he wt to baghda thank you for joing us. >> thank you. >> rose: so tl me how this is working out, the withdrawal of american troops tohese bases outsidof baghdad. >> first o all, i think it's working pretty well. this is on the bis of a security agreeme that was rehed in the ladr part of lastear with the bush administraon. so the dates for the withdrawal of u.s. forces from the cities and for the eventual thdrawal from u.s. forces in 2011 all those datesere approved by the bush administraon. so what we'r trying to do is implement this an we're turning over to the iraqisome key responsibilities in their cities and, you know, it's tough because you'reurning over from a...he world's greatest fighting for, the united states, over to the iraqis who ar certainly aspiring todo

things right, bu it'sot going to be easy, but i think is going we. >> rose: a theraqis of mixed minds abt this? they want to see the united states go and at the sam time th're worried they may not be ready? >> oh, i thin there'sn element of that because i they the iraqis are concernedbout is security and weave spent a loof time trying to train up ese iraqi forces, work closely with them, make surethey react to situations that way we do. and orall try to deal with the security. but meanwhile, the various insurgent groups, they want to someho humiliate the iraqi forc, prove that th were capable of doing it and then that would give se to the recreation litias as they d a w years ago. so the iqi forces have a lot of pressu on them. but i do believehe people want to see eir own forces there. i doelieve that iraqis, althoughhey... they don't... they want to see us nearby b i

do believe they want to see some progress in having the iraqis real run their own secuty. >> rose: what is yr role? >> wel my rol is really t signal to the iraqi people that the unitedtates is not leaving i mean, weeoing to have a ry serious, a very long-term relationship wh iraq but it's nogoing to be a military relationship, 's going to be civilian relatnship as we have with numerous countries aund the wod. we're gointo have exchange programs and education, we're going to have scientific programs, agriculturehings. we're gog to have a lot of different things. and what the iraqi pele need to do isnderstand that eve though our forces are leafing, wes civilians are not goi to leave. we're going to hav a very pructive relationship. >> rose: at what time will you reach out to amerin businesses and say "come iest in iq"? >> well, we'r doing that, b th iraqis have got to do a few things themsels. for exame, they've got to sort of cleanp some of the macroeconomic environment the. they've got toook at the

question of subsies, things like this. some of these actuall pre-dated ddam. th were from a arab socialist time. d whereas in easrn europe and the is are all gone and vy ch changed, in iraq tre are a lot of ver bad economic habits from a longime ago. and think foreign firms loing there, they firstave look at security, which is obviously getting better by the day, b they also he to look at whether this is a count th is really set up to py by international rules. and that's something else we're working with the iraqis on. >> rose:hy can't the pass a hydrocarbon la >> well, you know, pple say this is a hydrocarb law, it's just abo oil. well, it's aut oilhe way moby dick is atory about a whale. i mean, there's a lot more gng on here. it really haso doith the relationip of the center, baghdad, to the... tone of the deral entities of iraq, namely kurdistan. it has to do th how y share

the proceeds ofit, ofhe oil. it haso do with how you ornize yourself for the oil. do youave a nation ministry, do you have a national oil company? and when you start looki at questions like tt, you get into a lot of patronage issues loushg tse things going to b staffed? it goes into the question of which l fields do you try to invite foreignusinesses in to exploit first? so there are lot ofdifferent things and it proven to be diffult, to t ts hydrocbons law done. d plus, i should add, we have elections in the kdish region coming up just next week fm no that's jy 5. d also there will be national elecons in iraq and as we even know froour own experience, sometimes it's tough to come through withood lislation th an election looming. >> rose: se speculation that the relationshipith the kurds is at avery, very tderbox level. >>ell, i think the relaonship with the kds is a

complex relationship. i think so of the atements that we've heard out oyou are beal, that is the cabal of the kurdistan area,ome of the statents are not helul. but i think the need to be understood in t context of an election that's coming ujust next week in the kursh regional govnment area. so i don't think we ne to get toworried about tho statements. think what we need worry about are se other tngs. r example, there's intnal boundary question. that is where doe this kdish area end and wre do these... does the rt of the country pickp? that is, where are the arab eas versus the kurdish areas. there's a u.n. procs to s up mediate this, but, you know, you're dling wh some very hard-headed ople on all sides of the equation. so it's not easy f the u.n. and i ink what thunited states needs to dos toe very active here. bumaybe not in the lead re. let's see how the can work this through. there's sothing like 14 different disputes along is

line. anyone who's worked on bosnia or places like that understands how this works a there's no real whesale approach tot. you've g to do it retail. you've got to go tough each of these 14 areas and see what the lol communities are conceed about, is it security, is it that thedon't like to see rdish forces in a areas or don't like to see natnal central pice forces in their area? so you've goto work thi stuf it takes tim i ink we got the right process for it. but it's really going to take some time. >> rose: what about the relatiship between the sunnis and e shi'a,he kind of sectarian warfare ttignited back in 20 and 2006? >> well, you kno, those were terrible tim when you hadome eople being killed weekly. since the times, it's been a t better. but its still t ey and you have to work on the sort of reconciliation process eveday. now, this is something we t

iris need to do, but it's mething that we need to taken a intere in, which i not the mean the u.s should say we will solve your sectari problems fo you. but we can't just sa, hey thesare your oblems, lea us o of them. we've got t be engaged in a helpful way and that's what we're trying to do. now the goodews, if you look at the iraqi politicians as they're gettinready for thes januy elections, there looking at what sort of coalitiodo we need to win this election? d what you're seeing more and more of is the shiite, whoare a. the majority the people in iraq but sti they can't win an election with just a pan shiite coalition, they needto reach out and get kursh partner and get a sunni partner. and i think that's ki of a good sign that they... all e major players realize ty need partners fm the sunni and the kurds. so tre's aendency in the sort o politics of this to try to reach out and get some votes

from the other side. and thas... that's a good sign. >> rose: what does prime minister maki seek in washingt? >> well, he's going to ha a couple days, he's seeing some very senior people he starting of course,ith our presint. he's got a terest in showing that he's manage this u.s. relationip. he'sot an ierest in swing that even after the surity agreement we're going to have this civilian relationsp and is civilian relaonship is going to be important r the iri people. the other day in baghdad i hosted a reception, a diplomatic reception in the middle of badad for iraqis who have studied in the u.s. in ft, there's one woma there who studied in 1952 at columbia unersity. and it really sort of highlights the fact that we've had these changes for many years a that it was interrued by this very

bleak and terrible perd of saddam husse. and these things that i say are goinforward, things like scientific exchanges, et cetera, it's all put together something called strategic framework agreement whh was a sort of companion piece tohe security agreement, the security agreemenbeing the thing that unr which the u.s. forces a leaving. so i think maki wants to show th there's a civilian side to this relatiship tt's very important to theiraqi people. the's one other thinghat he'll doing. he's going to be going to arlingn cemetery and he's going to be paying his respects to the many thousands of amican soldiersho've died there. and i don't ink that's a very go idea. >> rose: do at you believe the majority of people in iraq are glad that we came. >> i do, do. >> rose: what's your evidence? >> well, you know, firstof all,

polling da shows that a majority support... have supported our presence. but, you kno, more sort of focus groups, if u will. i was down at a pla called nasiriya the other day and i was meetg with students from a university cald keyar iversity, which is the name the pronce. and the irst, hunger they have for more american involvement and they'reasking me abo... somef the kids were from law school and they're asking me account can we get somamerican lawyerdown, talk to us abo the s. legal system." we have a lot of lawrs dealing with iraqi judges and mistry types, but w haven't actually reacd out to students d the desire of these law students to rt of see and touch americans was reay telling. same with these kids who are lening english. they have never talked to an american... to anative speak of engli and theyust wanted

to get more from us. and i s very pleased th within days of my trip there we wereble to send some people to gin this relationshipith a small unersity. and wh you talk aboutontact, when you talk out reacng out to people, again, you'v got to do it one person at time, one mayor at a te, one student a a time, it's ally... it takes time but we're gng to get there. >> rose: is ayallah sistani playing a potive role? >> his, he is. he is a very rever shi'a cleric whoas essentially... ring the whole iue of american tops as they were negotiatg the so-called security agreent he says american troops shld be treated ke guests. and anyonenows about ar society knows guests is the mos exalted position i mean, being a guest, it's not like you mother-in-law staying with you, is a rl guest.

anso everyone knows that th means lay off the troo. you know, this habeen a tough situation. you know, the shi'a,ho are by far the largest majority in iraq there arresearchly no shi'a majority stes in the middle east. so they're looking out a sunni kuwai, at a sunni saudi arabia, sunni syria. i mean, these states that have never had a shi'a leadership. so iqis.... >> ros how about iran? well,here's the issue. the only other shaajority and shi'a-run state the ddle east right now isran. d so what we don't wan is a situation where traqis feel somehow th that's the only country will be suorting them. now, fraly, the iranians play a very negative re iniraq and they have not been respecting

their soveignty and, frankly, when you loo at some of the violence in th southern par of the country, i tnk you could put your finger on a very malevont influence from the iranians. >> rose: w are they doing that? at do they ho to gain? >> well, you kno the trouble with the middleast is everyone thinks everyone else belongs to them. and ithink the iranians fe that sehow if you look through the history of persi you see thraq was... or a good rt of iraq was underersia and ey look at the fact that 's shi'a and they really thin that somehow ir should be a subservient ste. that is, they're not respecting their sovereign and ceainly whathe iranians fear about iraq is iraq's democracy. now, rd knows it's not a perfect demoacy, is got a long w to go but let me tell you, the iraqis at least can run an election. so i thi the iranians have a lot to be concerne about from

iraq's side. and, of urse, theiranians are very muchorried about the own internal problem >> re: i assume we've communiced to them to stop it, aren't we? >> i think the irania are very ll aware of our concerns about this malevolent influence. rose: my... i assume general petraeus tolthem, actually. stop it. >> i don want to confirm any individualiscussions, but i n assure you the iranianhave be made wellaware of our concerns. u know i.... >> re: what are the consequences if they d't stop? >> well, i mea, you know, the an wants a better rationship wi us, with the world, there are a few things they've got to do, starting with the nuclear program. bualso they've got to, i think ay a me productive role in aq. you kn, iran and ira need to have a good regulationship in the longun but is got toe based on mutualespect. and thosof us who live in the green zone occasionally get these 107 millimeter rkets

coming in. in se cases coming ght into where w live, and they're all made in iran, we would sort likeo see the iranians do sothing about that. >> rose: speaking ofhat, you almo got killed theor day. how close was it? well, it was a... it was... well, yoknow, i s in a motorcade, wehad six vecles d unftunately someone set off a roadside bomb and rtunately we were all okay and we drove through the smoke a went on about our business. >> rose: wer you targeted for that or did the simply want to kill some americans and they saw thisotorcade and they said "here go, let's get this one"? >> hard...t's reay hard to say, charlie. i know there's an ongoing investigation, this happen. ali can say is i've got some the best securi people in the world. they follow the best practices in the world and, you kn, driving ov to the stuo about a half hour ago, some car c in front of our...y taxi and i saw my whole life go before my eyes. so, u know, stu happens.

>> rose: (laughs) wait minute. are you saying it's worse than in washington than baghd? defensive driving. but i will say some vy bad ings continue to happe in iraq and all i can say is wve got some really talented people dicated to dealing wit it. so much so tt we're not curtailinghat we do. in fact, we' getting t there meeting iraqis a ting to make it a better place. >> rose: a couple of last questions. one, al-sadr. moqtadaal-sadr, what' the status of hiwn efforts tbe the collaborator. either participate and be part of the sution or be part of the problem? >> h hasn't... i can't say he's been doing much participating. and, i fact, the sadris, as they're called, have not been very hellful in the parliament there. so i think he's got a ways t go before he's a full participant. on the otherand, he st spent about a year or so studying to

be promote in the stem of shii clerics so maybe h was able to puck u some thing in school there. this is a gay who real has not embraced a syste that oth peop have embced. and what we are trying to do a inde, what the iraqis are trying to do, is to get moreand more groups to brace politics and pu dn thr 107 millimeterockets. and there'seen a lotz t of success, a lot of hard work on thisnd certainly a lot of the groups that we in the sadrist camp are very muc in the political side now. the problem is, they're not being all that constructe. >> rose: a have the sunnis who were part of thewakening been absorbed io the government and are they being met with open arms? >> yeah, you know, that'seen gog well. these are... we're tking about sunni trib in anbar province who nd to be very sort of rural type of snis and a lot

ofhe militias that were part of this sunni insurgency have actually switchedsides and, of course, they'reery much opposed to al qaeda-- and who wouldn't, because al qaedas mply out to kill people and they don't really em to care wh so i think e so-called akening movement that you mentiod but also these militias w've been brought in and paid for by the gornment, that's goi pretty well. i mean, it's not perfect. we sometimesear that such and such a uni didn't get their pay last month. >> rose: o were sho or were shot. >> or were shot, yeah, yeah. there'... you know, this is a placwith people pick up a gun prettyuickly and wherehere's a lot of violenceon a given day. again, you have look at the tren. you have to lo at what it was like year ago,what it was like aonth ago and i think erall the trends are in the right direction. >> rose:here areeports that there was me tension bween

american military leadehip and iraqi litary leadership a that the americans were ver concerned because the iraqis said "you cat leave the base until we tell y so. >> well, ye. i've seen these reports. there are a cple of newspaper stories about th. you know, i'm. i'm sure some of thesethings have happened, but can tellou, one tng that's very cleain the secuty agreement that we ached with the iraqis at the end of last yr, thatthe bush administration reachedith the iraqiswhich is our guys have a rit to defend themselves and they will defend themselves an no o can tell them they can't. so i'm not sayg that there won't disagreements, b we ha worked very hard with the iraqis, we've worked very hd to have commo operation nter. we've worked very hard to have transpencys so they know when weee a threat theraqis see the same threat. we've worked very ha on sort

of meshing this. anit's not easy and i'm not saying the aren't proems and there won't be additional prlems, but, again i think 's in the right dirtion and i the fact that the troops a ouof the cities is a very good signa good sign for iraq's ability take over tir own security and a gd sign for our troops to come home and come home with a sse of amission well done. so i think we'reoing to keep working thisnd i'm not saying we're not going to have a oblem next tuesday or someing like that, but we're going to keep at it. >> rose: andhathappens ifn this election next years there a referendum voted by the iri citizens sing "we want the americans ouof here by the e of 2010, n 2011"? >> well, actlly, according to the security agreement, they can have a referendumut they would have to notify us within a year and then a year latere would be out soif they had the refendum and the best that

could happen, really, is... i mean,eople votinfor that refendum is if we would be out when we said we're gng to be out. so don't think we hav a problem now on the referenm. i thinkwe're here according to curity agreement. i think one thinthat was very important fothe iraqis is will the americanso what they said they'll do? and at was very important for us is to show e iraqis yes, indeed, weill. you want usut of baghdad, we agreed to be out of baghd, we're out of bhdad. i think thatade a deep impressionn iraqi society, a very posite iression ofll willingness to work with them as a soveren and our willingness to shothem this kind of respect. >> rose: so you're convinced th the vast majority of iraqis believe e united states is not there tostay and t united stes is nothere to tak their oil? >> you know, if you lookt opinion surveys,here are iraqis who belie that, but all wean do is to amass clear facts which will demonstrate the

contrary. d i think increasingly and in fact if you look at somef the recent opinion surveys, more iraqis belie that we are no planning to stay as a result of our moving out on june 30. so i thi it is a process tt is convincingraqis of our good tentions. >> ros when we say "move out," we're talking about military forces,ren't we? >> yes, we're talng about.. actually we' talking about bad and mosul. e other areas had alrdy moved out of the urban areas. soeople talk about june 30, but it wasn't somethi where you were seeingundreds of nks moving around. it was remaining force in baghdaor remaining forces in mosul. now, those arewo of the toughest are. you know, baghdad is enormous and there are a lot ofdifferent oup there is and mosul, asou ow, is on that fault line between the kurdish lands and th sunni arab lands. so these are ugh areas. but we didmove out. the iraqi securi forces have

set up their own checkpoints and doing their own patrolling and believe me, they' been ting me hits,hey've been taking some casualties. it hn't been easy at all for them. but,ou know, they're going to learn. they're going to do a bett job and i think th can hdle the chore. and th reason i think they can handlehe chore is, you know, the wld's greatest fighting force, the u.s. military, alsourning out to be the world's greatest trains and we have worked so har with these guys and i think it's going t bekay. >> rose: finallyhis. m freedman wrote a colu the other day and he said "e big question for iraq what kind of cotry do theyant to be." i'm sure you s that. how would yoanswer that? >> yeah, i heard he was i country. unfortately he wasn't able to get to baghdad or to nasiriya whe i was that day so i wasn' able toalk to him at all. but i think the iraqis do need toecide what they want to be. you know, there's a lot oftalk

about theurds and whether they want to stay. but, you know, frankly, the kus already have aery automous region in the north. and then when you look in baghd, you know, who constitutes the iqi gornment? you may notice that the prident of iraq is a kurd. you may notice that e foreign mister of ir is kurd. you manotice the depy prime mister, the guy involve with a lot of this oil busines is a kurd. so thekurds are actually doing fair well. d i think what iraq needs to do, needs to work through, is the idea that everybody nee to get a bit of a share of this whole proce. so they can'tave a sittion where it's wner take all. and so this is sometimes difficult. i know at prime minister maliki in putti together a gornment has toave people in his govement who are om a different party and m not say all those nic things out him when he's n in theroom. so it's a tough kind democracy to putogether, bui think that'shat they wantnd

we're hopeful ty'll have the ols to achievet. ll make one oth point that iraq had a...they had some bi on someil fields and one of the main oil fields wheer went to a consortium of brith peoleum and a chinese compa. and if that works, iraq going to be able to double their cuent oilroduction probably as much as double. and if they're abl to do th remaining oil fieldsthey are going toe on a par maybe not up to saudi arabia but they're going to be movingp the lin terms of a country producing oil. and that gives them some real possibilitys to pafor services thatheir citizens need and to really kindf work on things. but the iraqis have had a problem over the year, indee, over the centuries, of being isolated. so this time ty've got to figure out how t reach some of those sunnieighbors, work with them and then ach out to t world, have good relations in europe, go relations wit us. and i think if they can achieve

this kind of internationalizationthey could have a ver positive... th could be a very positive entity smack dain the middle east. i thinall politicshould start with a map. and if you lk at a map, iraq isight in theenter. >> rose: are you convinced it was the right ing to do to inde iraq? >>ell, charlie i'v got aot views on that but i not sure any of tm is rally relevant rht now. what'm trying to do is make sure our relationship becomes civilized and ke sure that our troops are able to leave onthe schedule that we've agreed and i do believe that is... that we are onschedule. and i'll letistorians decide whether this was the right tng too. >> ros north korea what can youell us about the son who might be the next prident of north korea? well, you know, i don't do that account right now. i've passed the station wagon and moved on. >> ros i'mot doing ver good at getting you to tell me anything. >> but i can tell you that what

is going on inorth korea is theyave a domestic problem, a suession problem. they have kimong il,ho's denitely not kimjong well, he's kim jong very ill. and they're tryi to deal with a veryough succession because he didn't ke any pla for it. so we ve this kind of odd situation sort of monarchy in a counist country that, frankly, isn working. and i thinkthe most important ing we haveone and continue to do is to work wh our partners. we are really flying in formation with the sou keans whh i think is critic to e solution. we are wking closely with the chinese and of course with the japanese. so i'm kindf hopef that we've gothe right poli and i'hopeful that when the north koreans get thugh, this they get through this, they will see that we are unified and they're going to have to deal wi us.

>> rose: mr. ambassador, thank you very much, a pleasure to see you again and have y on this program d hopefully next te inew york. >>hank you very much. >> rose: or baghdad. >>kay. any time. love to see you there. >> rose: we'll be right bac stay with us. now an excerpt fr our web site about politic, which is all about politics. the interview is tomorw night. re's an eerpt. health care, for emple, is he going to gett done? >> i think most observers thi there's a better-thanven chance thate'll gett done. i think ople like max bcus want to get it done the democrats on e hillave control majorities in theo want to gett done. >> i r one am very keptcal d i thoug from dayne that will define this presency the first cup ol years will be this

soalled bigang theory of tang a crisis knowingeople ar uneasy and thinking you can do big this and a l of thgs simultaneously. it lood and sounded brill yantd couple months ag, it doest look and sound so brilliant whenou're trying t do cap an trade, reregution of the u.s economy and health care reformsimultaneously. it's dficult. ngress has a hard timeoing e thing at a te well and doing it efficiently. ing three things of this magnitude simultanusly when you only have a coupl of months to do it is ry difficult. and he's ting to do it now at a time where you rely see the lls starting to shift. you see independents and moderateemocrats each we atumber is goi up, peoe who e uneasy with trying t do so much so fast an spending so much mey so quickly. >> rose: and they say... they're looking at what' happening to jobs and loing at... so you don't thin he'll get and certainly noget it by august 7. definitely not going to get it by augt 7. does he getit rater inthe year? think it will be very har members of congres will go home in august.

there's going toe millions of dollar targetinghose morate d conservati democrats. those vors are aeadyuneasy th the health carelan before it gets demagogued. imagine terwards. it will be interestingo see their faces andheireactions en they come back to washington in septber. if they'rerattled, i think it will be very, very difficult for him to get anything tha resembles the pl that he set t to get four or five months ago. >> rose: is the majory opinion that he should have deyed healthare even though it has an impative and that he should have delayed it and xed the economfirst? again, majority... i it a growg opinion? >> wlive in the moment at politi, i tryo... at least have one foot not living in the moment. wee going to see it's brilliant if he does it. i don't que agree with jim. with this congressional arhmetic-- and arithmetic is decive-- they can get somethinif they call viory, even if the details chae. and youe going to say is is never going tohappen under an circumstances. rose: republicans are sayin this is waterloo if he doesn't say this. democrats own theity.

for better or worse they own the city and we'll fd out if it's for better or worse in succeeding electio. i thin there will be hlth care and. i think to me the big question hoverg over barack obama rightow is what happed in006 when the democrats ok back congss. 2008, huge majoritie and a election. was that a rction to bush or has thisountry fundamentally changed? and shifted on its axis, if you will? a and we're just aifferent eological country that is a much bigger believer in government, much more similaro europe in our attitudes about the role ofovernment and the private economy. my guess is that we ve made that shift, but.... >> rose:ou think we have me the shift to a differe attitude about the rol of gornment in the ecomy? >> in a very fundamental way. in aeryundamental way that wee not living in a reaganr a clinton era. in someays obama is as far from clinton suzuki as he is

about reagan. >> we have to sa our arguments for off camera. >>ose: why? >> i'll tell you,here's about 70 hou democrats that hol ats that bush won in 2004 i think they would disagree with you. i think they don't think tha e countryas fundamently shifd. they don't thi that they wt big deficits or quick fast governme action. >> rose:ou say the country could fundamentally shift and t want big deficits, or not? let me rephre the question. uld off funmental shift without ving big deficit? >> i think the barometer that i'm looking are those conservative to moderate democrats because the republicans will never wk with ama. they have no inceive to and theyever are going to. ose 70 people are still saying the country has n shifted. jo could be right. he could b smarter and closer. >> rose: do you think so? >> tse are legislators that can be bought, as they demonsated on cap and trade. if you've g something like a majority you can say,ey, texas reesentative you can keep pollutg in your district. i think they've got a fighting

chance, which is remarkable. >> rose:60 members ha a fighting cnce? >> at be a figing chance. but it's big step if they d . >> re: in may of 1961 esident john f. kennedy decled "i believe this nation should coit itself to th goal before this decade is out landing a man on the moon and rerning him safely to th eart" eight years later that mandate became a reality. today marks e 40th aiversary of "apollo"1, the fir man mission to land on the moop. the na crew included missi commander neilrmstrong, command module pil micel coins and lunarmodule pilot edwinbuzz" aldrin. on july 16, 1969, the astronau blasted off from the kennedy space center in florida. ur days later on july, 196, armstronand aldrin bame the first humans to walk on the moon.

>> that's one sll stepfor man one giant ap for mankind. >> rose: it's been estimated that 5 million pele across the world watched the video brdcast of the moon landing. armstrong himsf has said the historic event "the importan achievement of "apollo" was the demstration th humanity is not forever change chained to this planet and our visions go rather farther than that." over the years i've spoken with a number of astronauts about their space experiences and he is a montage of them. >> i was standing on the surface looking up in theblack sky at mother earth, planet earth, which is four times as large as the moon a we look at it. >> rose: thas amazg, four times large. >> beautiful color, thelues of the ocean, the white icecaps, clouds, you can see the outlines of somof the continents. it was just an overwhelming sight. but the thing thatstruck me is that, hey, that places kind of all. it's frage. it's not as infini as we think it is when we' down here o

the earth. and then all of a sudden i thought, well, now we hav these people that ar confronting each othe potically and militaril all over the place. >> rose: screwing up the environment. >> and screwing up the environmen and what a shame it is that we're not taking care of the planet, the resources, and finding t about the environment. was an emotional moment. i actually went littleit. i hadn'txpected to dothat. >> rose: just overco by...! yeah. >> rose: you're aveling.8... >> almt five miles a second. you're dealing withhings but you train f this and you train ght... so that you know everhing there is to know about that vicle and that craft. and i guess iould describe it t as fea but as apprehension. i've termed it constructive apprehsion because you're focused and you're awa of evy little shake that thing mas but you'relso readyo do whaver is needed if mething goes wrong. >> rose: what is weightlessness like? >> when yo first get into it,

it's a litt different. your head feelsull like if you're leaning over a horizon bar when you're a k, you used to do that. you can float arod. your stoma is a lile queasy. so people can taket, takes a while to g used to it. after abousix hours it' a very tranquil, a very let tharj i can environnt. people stay up there for years, it's coming back to earth that's so difficult. sdmup you gi me a insight in terms of how you sjally prepar for the idea i might not come back. sdmup >> i was years old a a second lieenant and i didt have a big support system. i wa alone in that airplane. d they were out toete. the other gs. that causes person a lot more concern about not comingback en you see that last week someone dn't come back from the mission. we get used to those things,

see friends training pilots who have accidents who don't survive. >> ros joining me w is jeffrey uger, senio writer for "te" magane, i'm pleased to have him he. here's theover story july , "time" magazine, 40th anniveary of "apollo" 11. moon strk, a closeup look at the 24 men who made the vage d how their lives wer changed forever. let tt's just anmazing idea. what did they have in common >> well, i think theyhad a fair number of things in common. i think they had aevel of imperer theabilit that thosef us w have t done it can't begin to fatho one of the things that made me fit interested in writing a book onapollo" 13 was when i saw jim lovell many years after the accidentn television talkin about having the impulse to panic. andhat's a queion he's commonly asked "di you panic? did anyone in th spaceaft panic?" he said "i thought about panicking buthen i decidednot

to because i didn't ink it would get me anywhere." and i was struck by the nonchalance with whiche said decided not t pasick a parasympaetic reonse. the's only a handful of peopl o can make it a voluntary response. >> rose: they're a good pilots. >>ertainly. they were l good pilots and they were either test pilots or comb pilots. as that clip fm buzz jt owed there were a lot ofen who risked eir lives in combat otr men whorisked their lives in unpven vehicles which by the way is i some caseaking a gger chance. oneffolks i spoke to for the story pointedout, once you get those kin of men in a spacecraft, off sf-selected group that point because they've already leard to turn their normal responses into calculated and contained responses. i asked pete conrad once if was nervous on the surfa of the moon. again, not unlike theuestion you aedbuzz, knowing th if

s engine didn't light wasn't coming home. and he said ", i was a happy guy on the surface of t moon." he said "i thought about th the rst time i wasn earth orbit and if my einehadn't lit i'de just as randed and just as de it only see worse if i'mon the move." >> rose: what we the pla if the engines didn't work? >>hey would quiey expir >> ros quietly? >> well, quietly expired. i wod imagine these m would have gone up to theoment of death with theame kind of self-containment and dignity with which.. >> rose: b was there any plan of c i get back we'll give you this pill to go to sleep? no, andt's fun you should say that because i opened "apollo" 13,he book jim and i collaborated oon the book "lost moon"which became "apollo " opened the book with just that question. the idea of poison pills itas a veryommon rumor. the poison pills d not exi. and jim kindf laughed when i asked him and said "if you

want to die in spac, you could do it faster justby opening vent,ou'd be dead in five seconds." >> rose: because of e climate? >> bause it would be a sudden vacuum. the interior atmosphere would rush out int the vacuum ouide and your blood would literally boil and you'd be dead i seconds. and he said "but we would have stayed ive as long awe could broadcasting bacwhatever ta we could that's our job, we were there and we wod have done that job until the end of our abilitto do that." >>ose: were they 100% certain they could get them back? >> the numbers that buzz likes to use and that all three on the first landing used is 95%. they say they were 95% certa at they could have tten back. funly enough, i asked charlie duke receny from "apollo 16," he knew nl as well as anne uld know neil armstrong and he said he's convinced that armstrong is telling the truth when he says it's one small step r man first words wereot

pre-anned. duke saihe was such a prague ma tecical assistance. less there was a 100% likelihood that heas going to be able to rete those words he wasn't goi to waste any tim planning them. he had a fixed amount of time to rk and a whole lot of things to do andhis was a tas that didn't need to bedon until he neededo do it. >> rose: when you spokef him you id as much as anybody could geto know ne. at did you mean? >> neil armrong is... the word th's least fairly used to describe nl armstrongs "reclusive." he's not recsive. he's exceedgly quiet. he's a man who's exceedily miion oriented andork oriented. there's a wonderful sry the tronauts tell about when waslying the l.l.t.v., the lunar landing training vehicle whh basically lood like a giant flyi box spring with four legs. was a monstrously dangous machine and they wouldake it up to a thousand feet and pla with it d land and tha was a lunar lander trainer. and his... this is abo a year before he we to the moon the l.t.v. spun out of control

neil had to eject, he didn't have much clearance above th grou. he ejected, the l.t.v. crashed he parachuted down safely next to itnd when people next saw him an hour later, he was athis desk getting his paperwork don nothing rustled neil. >> rose:s that why h was choseen? >> that's one of the asons he was chosen. he w chosen also-- and th is what chris craft, one of the great lions of nasa will tell you-- was also chon because that's where t rotation was. he sai you know, nolur on any of the pilots who flew any missions >> rose: anyby could have gone up the rotation? >> theotation came up, if "apollo 11" hadn't wked pete conrad would have been the first man on theoon. if "apollo 12" hadn't worked, al shepherd would have been rst and he and "apollo 133-" later itch because sheerd needed re training time. so whoever was nt inine would ha been the first. >> rose: is tre one first amg equals? >> i asked chris cra that. if you ask me i would say jim lovell.

i'm biased. jim ani have rked together. >> ros "apollo 13" "gemini " rose: tomanks. >> exactly. jim was and still is a fantastic rudder and stick man. frank boorman, command of "apollo 8" was considered a true genius iterms of his natural feel. he was a cautio astronaut but a terrifically adept one. but chris crt, when i asked m that question, i said ho is the bt pure pilot who eve flew under your xand?" anhe said "i'm not ting to give you the apopriate answer. i always sai the bes crew that's flyinis the bt that's. that's er flown is the onethat's crently flying because th have built on the achievements of every other crew before them d the next one will be bette than ey are. >> rose: somebody wre-- maybe you-- that as good as they were in mecnically getting up there and back in term of all the

skls of pilots and allhe skills they had leaed that it wasn inevible about them that they would no be leer kl. >> that's right. jack swigert pointed that out. anybodwho listened to those tapes and hear those transcripts knowhat. here you he men looki at the first moon at e... the rst look at the moon. and thewords coming out of theimouths are "amazg, fantastic." ll, it is, but the large majority of people wou have something that was somewhat more leerl to say. that's why buzz's first description, that wonderful oxymoron "magnifent desolaon" a brilliant piece of word play that cameut of his mouth sntaneously. t jag swirt pointed out y didn't get many pele saying that because the very thing that qualified them go to t moon, clinical engines, detachment from what they werdoing,

disqualifiedhem from speaking about it very poetically. ifou can stand back and you canuster the internal appreciaon for what you're doing topeak about it poetically, u'll get overwhelmed by the enormity of what you'reoing. >> rose: how wld it have been ming back? it difficult to adjust? >> at some levels it' difficult for all of them. lovell, who is t my expernce the e i know bes and the one who has adjusted the most easily even tse said he spoight goesff, it's a little chlenging." the psychologist spoke to when i s reporting this story said "look, you have people who are terrifically competive, they are terrifically mission oriented and thenhe mission ends and the there's real sense most of grieving. almo of that kind of proce of loss." 's no coinciden, i think, that a good number o them fi of them-- went into politics. vell declined but he was given

a... hard pressedby the republican nional committee of his time to run for the senate. but ve of them did run bause you havehat same kind of ferocious competitiveness building up to açó single signaturevent and election instead of a liftoff. and, you know, it gave them that same kind ofhrill. now,overning once you're electd is a lot less exciting than flying spacecraft the moon. >> rose:lan bean bece a painter. >> alan bean became a painter and be was... always was an arst beforehe flew. i suspect that if al bean had t flown to the mn and later got a littleperitif taste it again when he flew sky lab, i ve a feeling alan bean wod haveever become a painter because as a fli he always would have wanted to be achieving that next thing. always wouldave been wanting toet that adventure itch scratched. on you've been tohe moon and mmand add sky lab mission, u have hadthat itch scratche and

i think that gave him a competitive man like him,he piece and sense of satisfaction to say "now i can go and psue the gentler partof myself." >>ose: what can you say about e space program today? >> well, the space program tay isn the samelux it's en in for the last 40 ars, unfortunately. the auguste commission appointe by prident obama is bringing bac their recommendations for th future of parcularly theunar program, the manned program in august. if nasdoes this right, i believe were closer to getting back to the moon, which i believe is a good ide closer t getting back t the moon than we've bn in a lo, long time. than we'veeen since the 1980s. >> rose: why shoul we go back? >> i think we should go back for a few reasons. i think there are scientific reasons to go back. i ink going back does... could y dividends inerms of smology and exoration and as a trning ground for betting

back to mars or getting on to mars, but thenswer that you can't give before senate committee but i ve to gives that. because that's what we do we're an idiosyncratic oen irration species that gs our greatest satisfaction from the things tha make intuitive sense. dance s no surval value, music has no survival value, art has no survival vue, noro beautiful buildings. we couldbuild slabs i we wanted. but smog about magnificen piece of a risi 70 stories high that also has function fis with us this sense that we're capablof great things and that we'r never going to die. i ink that's what travel to another world does. you get there, you think "i as an individuamay beinite but i'm a member of is species that's capable of these magnificent pageant-like events" and that's agood thing. >> rose: someo said- and you'll probably know who it was-- why do you climb mountains?

because they're ere. >> because they're ere, exactly. and once you'vedone it, you realize this insurmountae thing turned out to b rmountable. whatoes that notet you feel thatou can do if you've rmounted this you can suount anytng. and i thin that's the biggest reason wgo. now, it's hard to tell aunding committee thatbut i think in our hearts if we were bein candid we would acknowledge there's scientifidividends, the are political dividends but there's also spiritual dividendand they are probably more valuable than any of the others. rose: spiritual dividends? spiritual vidends in tha sense. and i don't mean in terms of ganized religion, although a few tronauts have com back spiritually akened. but when iay "spiritual" i ju mean in a sense, they ge you a nse there''s larger universe beyond usnd we're capable of getting that perspective. and the al shepherd tape you play, jim love talks about this, u look back onthe earth you see this infitely

destruible thing that just floats in this fantasticly stile environment of space. unless you've been tre, you dot get a sense of how fragile and how perfect the earth i and how easilit can be broken. you don'get a sense o how small it is. you don't t a sense of how everything that ever happened in human history is contained o th tinylue dot. you go to space, you get that. >> rose: president obama's is said to be reconsidere everything >> he is reconsidering everything, ye and my conce is that he will recoider to the point of unplugging it. i have a feeling, if i were predicti, i have a feeling what we wl do will be to continue a lunar program. there's a very pragmatic reason. it ia huge jreator. whenhey began... when ey put out help wand cal for the new constellation spacecrafor the new orion orbiter the were 600 sps and i think was

lockheed, forg the name of which contraor is doing it, ey got 30,000 applications for 600 spots. it's a b stimuluso that part of privatendustry. and i think that's important. i suspect president oma will scale down t cost little bit go wh existing boosters repurposed foruman flight a opposed to buildg new boosters. i think we'll stilgo. >> rose: so whewill we go to rs? >> well, mars... da scott speaking todayn washington, the commander of "apollo 15." he said "the probl with that is it costoughly two jill i don't know dollars the jill don't know wasis figure. it is very expensive and an order of magnitud harder th gog to the moon. but if we can get back to the moony 2020 a i seeno reason why wean't get back the moon by 020 if we simply choose to, go think we cou be on mars by 030, 2032. it's not all that for away. >> rose: thank y for coming. >> thankou for having me. >> rose: "ti" mazine, jeff kluger, 40th aber have air is of

"apollo 11." a closeup look at the 24 m. captioning snsored by ro communications captioned by mea access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org