>> charlie: welcome tohe broadcts. tonight, racin america in the termath of the arres of a harvard professory the cambridge massachuses police officer. we talk about the meaning of this wit the reverd floyd make,avidemnick and raina kelly. >>hen this happens, it comes another time when you say we thought we were past this and here it is again. if it can hapn to dr. gates, then it canappen to me. >> thesere not questns anymore about, you know, kind binary queions about water fountowns and lunch cnters they are questions about institutional racism.

they're questions about incarceration rates ich are crazy and out ocontrol which have to do with thought just rasm but drugaws in the country. it's a complexf problems that i think obama's veraware of. >> it'smazing thatobama allowed himself to make that speech this afternoon. we're so used to seeing people haen their position over the course of a new cycle. i will never apologize. e rhetoric gets built up and built up and built up andthen when the american people say to themselves, please let this be over. >> charlie: we continue wh a new film opening this weekend dicted by armando iannucci. the floim satiies the leader in war to the mile east. >> i tught ther was something intrinsilly farce cull about the story, going out to washingt, thinking they were in some way preventing george sh from going to war, and i

ct by their very presence in the whitehouse, encouging him d enabling him to go to war. now i know you pull your ir out at that o you scream or you sa that's a farce, that's a total absurd sad events. >> charlie: a progm note. our conveation with ross dohat, the new rk sometimes columnistill be seen next we.

captioning sponsored by rose communication from ourtudios in new york city, this is charlie ro. >> charlie: we begin toght with a conveation about race amera. in the aftermath of an incide between a harvard professor and a cambridg massachusetts pole ofcer. the controvey or the arrest of henry louis gates a pronent african american profeor. added to th controversy is cricizing the cambridge police officer. >> rently henry gates jr.as arrested at his he in cambridge. what does that say to you and about race relations in america? >> well, i should say at the outset that skip gates is a friend. i may ba little biased re. i don't know all the facts. what's been reported, though, is

that t guy forgot his keys. jimmied his way to get into the house. there was a report called int thpolice station that there might be a burgly taking place. so far sogood, right. mean if i was trying to jigger -- welli guess this is my house now. it probably wouldn'tappen. [laughter] but my home in chicago. here, i'd get shot. [laughter] i don'know not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in at. but i think it's fai to say number one, any of usould be etty angry. mber t, that theambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when the waalready proof that they were in their own he. d number three, wh i thi we know separate and apart from

this incident, is thathere is a lg history i thiscountry of africanmericans and latino being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately. that's just a fact. >> charlie: today the president spoke on the phone with both professor gates and surgery crowley. the prident askedhe country toeflect on the broar meaning of t incident. >> my sens is you' got two good people in a circumsnce in which neither of the were able to resolve the incidt in the way that i should have been resolved and th way th would have liked it to be solved. the fact that it hasgarnered so much attention, i think is a testony of the ct thathese arissues tha are sti very sensive here in america.

and so t the extent that my oice of wor didn't illuminate but rather contributed to more med friendly, i tnk that was unfortate. my hope is that as a consequence of this event, this ends up being what' called a teachable moment, where all of us, instead of pumping up the volume, spend little more time listeni to each other. antryto focus on how wean generally improve relations between police oicers and minority communies. and that instead of flinging accutions, we can all be a little morreflective ierms of wha we can do t contribute to more unity. >> charlie: joining meis a former cgressman and pats ter the reveren d floyd fla, so david remnick d raina kelly. i' glad to have y all here to

learn abouthe teachable moment on thiand reflect on the huge amount of attentiointhe last couple days. begin with u fyd flake. tell me, what suld we learn fromhis? >> i tnk what wlearned is that there are still some remnants of the past and that those remnants are reflective in monts like theseecause persons my age 64, somewhere around my age, the experienc of our pt are so deep imbedded that when an incident like is happens, it comes back up. it becomes anotherime when you say we thought we were pt this d here it is again. and if it c happen to drgates, then it can happeto me. can hpen toy children. and so itbecomes another one of those momentof fear. i thk the big problem here is

the identificati and the way that t neighbors saw the personrying to get into his owhouse. i thi that's the beginning of it all. and i don't kw that if tt d been a white person trying to get into that house, there would have been a call to the police departmen i the first place. anso a big challenge becomes one of n trying to stereo typically look at people and believthat just because they're a different color, something isrong or treat them differeny. i remember whei was dean of studentst boston u, and i went to a major store calledouis, wonderful store, nicclothes, it w saturday, iad jeans on and a t-shir and they look at me like i amut of place. i putn a suit, armani, on purpose, went back monday, and they fell all over themlves trying to wait on me.

i thk the bottom line becomes when do we get to that pla whe just because of how you look or just becau he had just come off of a flight and was not in a suit, did not necessarily mean he was a criminal. that'she kind of pblems we have to try to find a way to workur way around. >> charlie: is is difficult because as the president said, ese were two good men. >> it uld appear that they are twogood men the policen is a trainer on racial profiling. and we all know who dr. gates is. reality is the terrible thing about th is confluence of events brought to a place where i don think it should have gone. somebody did not, neier responded it sms in a way they should have, and over reactions brought into a place where here. >> charlie: here's wha the

present wrote in audity of hope. largelthrough circumstances i'm in a situation about the bumps and bruises the black man can endure -- during my5 years have been directed my way. security grds telling mes i shop in departme sres -- tells me their car keys are ouide a restaurant waitg for the valet pulling me over for no aprent reason. i kn what it's like to have people tell me can't do someing because its my color and i know the biers are swallowed back. tell me how you e the president's response to this >> wellemember there was a 60 minutes interview that i remember well with michelle obama and barack obama. michellebama said loo i know my husband can get hurt killed if 's in the rner gas station and gen the wrong

situation. these things are thank god ls than they were. this police officer was nocrowley and it's great he was a trair but by the avlable testimony on both sides of the evidence he w wrong. especially when he was shown a university identificion. skip gates is many tngs and wonderful things. he's a great friend. he uses cane, he's not 26 years old. he's not profiled. as far as what president obama did day, he's veryarack obama. th is a man who, and it's a great argument f diversity including the presency of the united states. because george bush or richard nixon or bill clint would -- bn would not able to do what he did today. >> charlie: to call up the

president. >> to modify hiswn statement. the kes a flexibilityof mind even if it has a political insult as well. but he had a certain kind of intellectual and moralrace in at he did today. he did not want to be invold on this issue, he wante tobe on the issue ofhealthcare which is very hard. yet he probably wen a word too rd the other nig. maybe he regrettedly saying the word stupid. he did what he'sbeen doing all his life, reconciling. emingly opposite points of view. that's his habit of mind. that's what made him a harvard law review president. his ability toattract consvatives over to his side as well as the liberals and left wingers.

he's been doing sincerofiling in the state sete. that's aind of specialty of back obama. >> chaie: you talk to fries today,eople you know, african american, white, immigrants, if you'vdone all that range of people. what the rponse. does it break along certain lines that peoe would say or is there unanimity that becaus skip gates from rvard a distinguished professor with a cane who make it so vention what professor gat considered it to be. >> what's interestinto me and i wrotebout that day is that there's a real weariness with the w cycle that in evidently occurs whena racial incident happens. insttly you see people hardening thr position. refung to have any kd of, as david said gce, mal grace,

intellecal grace, refusing to bendn any way, and ofourse the discrimination can nevere about whathe teachable phone is, it about theeople using the avaable evidence in whateveray to prove tha they have aays been rht. never looking, never lookg to e howhis could be a more nuanced reflection of where are in terms of race rations in this country. i think this was a very intesting incident that happened. this is a harva professor who happens to be an african amican man. a white male boston police officer, excuse me, mbridge police oicer who happens toe an expert in racial profiling. there's somethg there that needto be recognized. and the fact that they happen to have an altercati that got own up to the pnt again where the cops are racist. black people are oversensiti. there's no such thing as racial

profilg. l cops are cial profilers. childr, our people who elected an of currentmerican president, they do a disservice. they deserve a better conversation in the ra in the dia. they d't deserve a fnzy, they desved a nuanced examination ofhat happened. >>charlie: much of the media has been puing professor gates d officer crowley, either, back to back. >> yes. >> chaie: there's been a he said she said kind of thing. >> these are gentlemen who cleay understand the impactf race in their pticular field. certainly dr. gates does and it seems that a trair, someone who talks about racia profiling l the time, this is a m who understands its well. they had a bad encounter. and i do believe thathe

sergeant was wrong to arrest somee for disorderl conduct. wever, disorderly couct has always been a shady area between individualitizens and the police. can you talk back to a police officer. can you, you know, ca you refuse their comma. but again, all that'lost in all the sound and fury. >> i just want to say thoughn defense of skipates' behavior, it was not dorderly conduct. 's demanding wha he's alled to by la a bae number and namehich was refused him. he showed id. yes,kipates showed some temper. you' dammed right i would but it'sot going to happento me. and that call would not have happened if i were breaking into my house, the incident wouldn't have happened if it weree. it wou have diffused alst instantly if it had. that said, i think that y're solutely right, that these are, what obama entered - what

obama added to this, which was not necessarily there until this afternoon was complity. >> i tnk yr reality here is, if it was ahite man and a white man, it would have been a different reaction. if it was a black man and a black man, it uld have been a differenteaction. i think tha the reaction is in large meure because it is black and whe. if it were not black and white, it would not be sigficant news story it would be twouys who g into a contest soo eak. and s nogiven anyground. it seems that neithegave groundnd at the endf the day, they would he settled it some way. it may have been a different kind of settlent. but at the e of the day, they would have seted it some way d it would not, itould not rise to the level that this situation d. >> i think it got chesty, itot

le. ry male. one mentioning ofour mom area exactly. >> charlie: wha should ts presiden d you thout long about president obama and race issues, during the cpaign, his speech, his bo, his life. what is he, what is his responsibility ahe said it's in my portfolio today? >> it was thrust in his portfolio justs it was thrt in his portfol during the reverend wright indent. he was caring arod notes for aace speech. it wn't news to him he was an african erican male running a dierent kind of re than jess jackson ohis edecessors. >> crlie: he was carrying around notes. >> he wanted to give a race speech. >> charlie: like a keedy eech on catholicism. >> yes, he wanted to ce forward and do this. s advisors said look,

everybody unrstands you're african american, let'ssee what wean do about tting a crital mass of votes. and along comes the reverend wright business in the spring and over a weekend, ridg alone for the most part. he puts together thi speech which most people consider a kind of masterpiece opolitical rhetoric in the highest a best nse. and it was tt, tt was the ultimate teaching moment. and it saved his campaign. if he had failed on that, that could ve started spiraling down terribly. i don think the stakes were by the as large here but again, he had to react. a lot of being president is drinking from a fire hose. you have to react everyay. >> charlie so what does he do now. >> he d it. >>harlie: thiss it. >> yes, i think he would woulde deghted. >> charlie yes. so therefo he says i've done

everything can? for the moment. >> not everything yet. i think wt he says is i will be the reeferee. because ift's a re issue, it's a problem for me. i can bri themogether so america can seeow you recollect nile these kind of issues. that's the most important thing now and i thi he wl make that happen. think the pice will come, i think skip will come. anat some point, some event willowcur -- occur where it comes to some conclusi where it's in se best interestnot just give gates and not just he policefficer t for the nation's sake is is the kind of coming gether, reconciltion that we have to have. charlie: so you meet and draw a laer message fm the conciliation from a the example of the kind of thing we have to do on racial questions. >> i should think so. >> we have to becse

reconciliation is not a concept that we have seen a lot of when it comes toace. 've seen violence, we've seen heatedords. rarely do we s t parties come together and say -- and intend in any way, sha or form. i mn, it's amazing that obama allowed himself make that speech. we've seen people harden their position ovethe course of a news cycle, i wl never apologize. e rhetoric gets built up and built up and built up and then wh the american people say to themselves, plse let this be overwe move on to something else. but really all we did is delayed payment. we've been delang, we've been delayingeconciliation, delaying dealing with our issues for years, decades. en. and each tim when there's a chance to say let's come gether and have a discussion, let's learn something from this,

it never happens. >>oming from a southern gregated background, our fathers taht you if youre stopped, you smile, you act like everything is okay. and i think that kind of thing ing in the spirit of so many of us who came out of tha kind of segreted background, it is still a realit tt we teach our kids the problemor african americans, and a my ks and my boys are now 25 and 27, the reality we have had to sit nights wondering whether or not, not worried about ether they went to aparty and sometng was going tohappen. but whetr they would be stopped onthe way home. >> it'sery difficult but i think forgivess is going be the key tooving on. and it mayote possible for you, i may not be possible -- think it's possible for me. you know, i'm yoger, i did t have t same experiences as m

parents o are in college in 19 but the next generation my son is interracial and vy to observe both ses of this debate and he has to decide whether onot he's gng to b angry a his fathe bitter at me or he's goi to t to move forward. we have to. >> charlie: i just don't know how we get the and how long it's going to take. the question iask of david earlr. i mean,hat kind of dialogue, what kinds of education, wha kis of, is it simply a matt ofime andgenerations and a president whoas the capacities that ts president has, people in the pulpit o has the capacity you've had in your experience? yove right. i woullike to see the roadmap and i would le to see how we get there. >> it's aartialerm but it's also other factors. there are still not aican

american kid who areot befiting from the whole bro versus board o education. you still have many people who would love to be homeownerseven if y took someof them out who cannot afforto dot because of law that migate against it. you still hav situations that on an every day basis, people are facing a reality a still at the bottom of the ap. and i don't kno wn i get up. and i think until you make equality,not just rhetorical word but a reality in theife of more and brinng people togeer. >> these are not questions anymor about, you know, kind of nary questions abo water fountains and nch counters. th areuestions about institutionaracism. they are questions about incarceration rates, whichre crazy andout of control which have to do with not just racism burug loss in the country

it's aomplex of problems that i think obama is very aware of. member he came into office with notwo criseso deal with but a dozen, and this was not first on the dan card. >> charlie: should it be put on the dance cd. >> think it's inevible and remeer again, i'm not here as theournalists should be critical mindebut i think even the most gent minded or critical mind recognizes that this esident came into fice with a fancial stem about to solutely collapse to wars, etcetera, etcetera. he's bn president fo six months. we've been around for 200- we've been around for a coue ceuries and haven't lve the things. i dothink thathey willnter into the agenda and if they aren't, ere's going to be a lot dissoluon people, black and white. >> charlie thank you.

>> you're welcome. >> charlie: thank you david >> thanksor hing me. >> charlie: we'll be back. stay with us. armando iannucci here. his television program have anged the fe of british economy. he cated the day today, a terrible newprogram considered to be a precursor to e daily show. he created, wte and directed the thick of it, a sit call in the offe politics of government bureaucrats during the blare administration. now he rected a fm loosely based that show, it is called in the loop. it started peter cali; steven kugen andteven kambeli. ta a look. >> in the fd. e mountain is unforeseeable but then it is suddenlyno vy real and unfeseeable, thank

you very much. >> he did not s unforeseeable. you had him say that but heid not say that. >> i don't think it's unforeseeable. i don't kw. >> no. >> no. >> it sometimes work. >> you know i'm against the w. wheris the intelligence. >> there's an informant >> i don't need them. they are all kids in washingt. >> you're goin to u it- >> wha does that mean. >> well think it justeans -- i don't know what it means. you're an idiot. >> n it won't. it wille difficult, diffilt.

>> johand yoko. >> you're a useless piece o-- funny, smart sophiscated commtee. >> have i heard the wd coittee. >> there a a lo of words. kansas city, kitty >> itty. itty is not a burden, bob. -- is not a rd, bob. >> you've lost me. >> geral fnt stone. he willkillnybody. that doesn't count. >> i will march t hound you >> theproblem is civilians want to go to war. you don't want to be there

unless you absolutely have to. it's like france. >> charlie: i'm pleased to have armdo iannucci here for the first time. lcome. >> pleasurto be here. >> charlie: this is polits suggesting that you 23 year olds play a larger than life role and dictatein many ys the way the world works. >> yes, yes. the film, yousee that alot of them, the state departmt functionoff the energy of 22 and 23 year olds and that's, a i was, a we re writing the film, i spent sometime during resech. i me a 22-year-old who is sent out to baghdad to help draw up the constitution. there was a 24-year-old w came up with a paper on america's funding of cenal america a hiboss was busy, his bs' boss was busy so he was put in charge of central amera. >> charlie: wt elseshould

we come away from in this film. >> well, we should come away withi think an understanding that hind those rather imposing edifices that y see in washington, all o the buildings that you see in wal street butlook from theoutside and makeou think i shoul pass them, everyone in there must know what th're doing. >> charlie: they mu know sothing and they know sothing we don'tnow. >> or that they think ty know at they're doing. d then you realize, i mean look wha happened, the house hearingsn wall street, where you got all of these bankers up inront of them going we didn't kn, weust were essing. everyone else was borrowin and thought we would borrow ney as well. th recognition that youeel away the edifice people like you and me, pele w are butly

threatening they've ne the wrong ing or worrying they're going to be found out or trying to draft their own patch of territory and mayb do it someonelse and maybeind the right mentor t attach themselves to. >> charlie: now, do you lik litics or a or politics. >> i've always en fascinated byolitics. i've never bee politically active but i'm prably a rely liberal but i'm fainated by the behavior of politicians. >> charlie: and y see in some cases the absurdity. >> well absoluty. that'shen politicians, and this is the new breed of politicis over the last ten years. when theyre obsessed by trying to monitor and control the news agenda andtheir obsession actually leadsto them comingup with policies fit t adlines, rather than t other way around, then i find somethg absurd about tha >> charlie what brought you

to "in the loop." >> it's rlly, it's base on, it in a fictional time where the itish prime minister and the americanresident are very committed to military invasion ovcome the middle east. we don know w the president is or we don't know t country. >>harlie: and we don't s them. >> we never see th because i nt to s the middle pple, i want to s the middle manament politicia, the staffers and the deputy asstant secretaries of state and the underlingsnd the down frauden cabin ministers in th uk government who ar told what to do. >>hylawed done government, why not do twoovernments. >> bause i thought it was something ininsically farcical about going out to washingto thinking ty weren some way prevenng georg bush from going toar and in fact by thr very presence in the

whitouse, encouraging him and enabling him to go to r. i know youe pulling your hair out that or you scream or you think at is a farce. that is a total absurd set o ents. >> charlie we're going to see a slip n between the two leading american chacters. one, games gando wholays -- characri him before we e the scen what does he represent in you imagination. >>e's the sort of guy who talkthe talk but wehave yet to find out wheth he walks the lk. he clearly wants to halt the march towards r. and theyre discussing a paper that's o of the staffers has written th really blows the whole caseapart but he' reluctant to be the one -- >> charlie: he's a carrist. >> he's a careerist in theend. >> charlie: karen clark -- >> playshe secretary of state.

and they are having a little chinese meal atunchtime. and he character's ally the only one becau james and his finery in his uniform and mimi's character the oy one that can puncture that pomposity, really. >> charlie: roll tap >> so you red line with paper i guess. >> no,i'm a voracious reade >> hedefended on it. >>e's gay. >> no, he'snot. >> beg to differ. >> he's gay because i've been saying -- >> he is gay. >> i guess i better stop there, then. it's ridiculous. the case against w is far strongerhan the case for w and the se for wars all to he. they believe t state is looking to exnd aggressely beyond t borders. the only source iceman. he probably does ten bags of met methamphetamina day, the ice

man. >> does he eve exist. >> he says he doesn trust him. we're dling withntelligence here >> when do you want t >> me? >> isn't that wt you were suggesting. >> no. >> y don't hav toay it came from you. >> no, i'm not leaki it. th is good today. >> i don't thin clinton reads. >> the little bit about gor vil is im provised. have a script but i encourage the acto to loosen up a bit. somemes when they loosen up we get all the lines againut a diffent order. mi and james togethe-- >> charlie: he sa i read re vidal. and she said he's gay. >> the rulewhen you're floimg is always reond to what you

hear. so shehroughhis lin in gore's gay and jim picks it up. >> charlie:he knows it's otherwisopportunity to play. >> yes, and heoved that. >>harlie: we'll take look at anoth piece. this is wheresimon pyed by m hallender mee with the prs. >> he's the mister for international develoent. y he's one othe good gs in the uk governmen he's the guys inharge of international aid, chaty work, that sort of thing. 's quite ante the war. the film starts wi him sing the war is unforesable and malcolm turker -- >> chaie: he's the masset of communication. role tape. is is simon meetg the press. >> thas right. >> it's going toe a nightmare. >> do you wantto -- >> hello there. >> so, is warunstable in a

sense. >> look, tre are all sortsf thingshat are actually very like are also unforeseeable for the -- theountain is foreseeable butthen itis suddenly very rea and inevitable. rit. >> is this youopinion or the government pition. >> t mountain is cpletely hard mountain that could represent anything. >> who is t mountain. >> let's talk the -- sotimes we need to be ready to climb the motain of conflict. thank you so muc >> sohere he is. he's been backed into making a very hawkish remark about climbing the mountain nflict and they see him as their hero. >> crlie: what's amazing about this too, if this happen did mebody tell you this

happens. they take a document and they rewrite . >> of course. >> charlie: th take out everything and change the meaning sot means if it's black it's now wte. >> y. there wa an incent in the uk when tony blair needed the votes of the british parament to go to war and he trumpetted so at france could use it within minutes. now it turned out this dossier in the e consisted of hythetical arguments, evidence that had sort of alifications, idence that was only from one source, nothi verified. and l of the civil servants who haveworked on thedocument, they re pressurized into taking out all of the qualifications in sa of saying well it might be possible tt ddam could launch missiles

within 4 minutes. antime in the cia when they re under pressureo come up with evidence, they cover themselves by presenting doments that basicly told the politician wtthey wanted to hear. but they p all their qualificions at the backn veats and appendices. so they're in court hearings lar on, they cou say why didn't you say we suldn't go to war, it's a disaster. they say well yes at the frt we've written perhaps you could go to war. d at t back we cld have saidut it will be a disaster. so they cld cover themselves with the cavea and it's playing about th tact and argument and slowly and soft bending meaningto fit the earsof the person who wants to hear it. >> crlie: tell me about creating the characterwho is based onthe idea of al stir campbell who was of the principal advirs to attney

-- tony blaiwho sat at thisable and tked about the blair. >> yes. >>harlie: and al stir campbell on thishow. >> remembeher. she to a snd on health. everybody decided she was meant actual becae they showed pictures of her with a could yo >> it was particularly powerful. look the prime ministerof this cotry doesn't drin blood. he doesn't g around biting -- >> i know t prime minister isn't a viking. >> hoppose physical violenc >> i was the doing a jobhere people did some time immemoria and time was chging faster an any pt of our lif it was becoming me aggressive and re politically judental. an the thi is they talked about me bullying all the rest of it. ian spot a bully when see it, and i was in a room full of

bully's twice a dawhen i was briefing the if i hadn' stood up to them, i would have been blown ay. >> and maolm tucker t charactewho is bas on author campbell, it's based on a algam of artr campbell and onymous enforces that there are in government. many of them you don't hear abt, you don't read about. the british politi as the enforcer make them snd like the demeanters in harr potter. and we wanted, we dn't want to doanimpression of alstir campbellwe didn't wantnyone who looked like him. meter campbell is scottish. we wanted someone who mmed his rage. he's a pleasant iable person when you meet him in real life.

>> charlie: alstir campbel >> yes, as peter crowley. privately when he'sealing with politicians behind the ene, he's ruthless, he's vicious. charlie: i read something in the mes of london whe alstir campbell came to view, somee suggestede viewhe show. >> yes. >> charlie: with someone ee or by hself. >> with a film critic the bbc. e idea was to sitnd watch it, tch the film. and they wanted me there as well. >> got the e-ma very late in the dayut alstir himsf spun that. >> charl: if you had gotn the mail would you have ge. >> who wants to sit next to your arch emy and present him with somethin-- i just that tha he would not riew the fm. he would certainlreview himseland that's what did. >> charlie: what d he d >> he wrote a column t next day afr watching the film a

said he fou itboring. i tell you 's one thing, 's boring. but i thght that's interesng cause if he says it's boring that ilies he'seen it all before. and yet halso argued that it was ahigh exaggerationof real lifend bore no relati real life and he chose as this particar example, he ose a whole section within theilm that deals with a comttee in th senate, a secret committee that is looking intoinvasion but s been given a verydull name. it's called the future planning committee. ddenly every senator on the hi who hasan experience, he wants to get on that committee and it grows and grows. you can't fill all the people into the rm. d alstir campbell saidhis s gross cartoish distortion except thaincident happened, that's an entirely factual instant. dick cheney sets up an officef

future plans ich looks to the feasibility o looking int the invasion of iran and syria. >> charlie: the allen paridge show you did also. what was tha >> that's charter played by steve. you mention the day day which was sort of a fake news program. it had real ns a grhics and soundytes and alan partridge. ththing about him is he has this inferiority cplex which i think all sports journalists have which they worry at the arbeing looked down upon. >> charlie: they only do spor. >> yes. the clever peoe that know about politics. i think that theyre incomple

journasts. al partridge has this inferiority compx. >> charlie: se of the best starte out in sports journalism. >> yes, exact. they are grea word smis. >> charlie: they brought languageo newspapers. >>therwise you're going to run out of methods deribing how a ball gets fr there to there until you start elaborang and making it more ieresting. >> chaie: what's interesting is peopllike to think there's a different of sensibility in britton an the united stas. on the other hand, thing that have begunn one country have gone to the other and vice versa. >> yes, the office here i a great ca in support. >> charlie: before that it was arie bunker and red fox and all those showscame out of british comedy. >> yes. there might be a case tt the ass is always greener and ericans say to me the british comedy's much mo sophticated. i come hehinking well actually the bestmerican comedy, like seield and daily show is a sign of intligence.

there mabe something in the fact in britt a bit more defat setting is cynicism. there was abritish politician who was saying why can't we portray british liticians more like the west wing and less like in the thickf it because in e west wing -- >> charlie: they are minded. >> they're grt. th are good lking and intelligent. >> charlie: they speak well. >> they're loyal. whereas if we try to do that in a british drama, it would be lauger. it woulde laughable. >> crlie: so unless you make fun of your politicians it has no remaability. >> is just not beliable. i think the audienc woul't ke it seriously. >> charlie: so is there ss of respect fo politics. >> yes, yes i tnk so. and i alsonder whether it's a fact that in the u.s. the rol the offe has a charismaf its in. the officeof president is e offi of t head of state

where asur head of state is the ... >> charlie: the queen. >> the little ol lady i the palace. oever at downing street doesn't have hat charisma bestowed on them. they have to earn it. >> charlie: there also this part of what youe done in your careers toive people a sense of seeg something they ven't seen. you're seeingort ofhe unabridged. you're seeeople behind the scenes. you are piercinthe curtain. >> yes. i me, that is the the trick we're trying toull, it's sht in a very documentary way and i mped and soon. but i load it with authenticity and details we pick uppeaking to the peoplen their environment seeing wt their environment looks like. we somimes make sries up and exaggerate them d then find out tha they e true. and that's the shocking thing.

that's what i despair you kn. that's what i fd like ridicuus, you know. >>harlie: it's le you couldn make this up. >> no, exactl >> charlie: that's the exact pression. >> exactly. it sll happens. herehe moment dick cheney arguing tha it would be wro reveal secretsbout something which nev happens. you think that absurdity is still prest. >> charlie: tl me about the character who plays theneo -- >> david hewatched joh bolton and was fascinated. >> charlie: is richard arl part of this too. >> rich pearl. there are lots of them. and ey all have, they are all intellectuly brilliant apart from rumsfeld. they are all intellectuay illiant but they speakin very

enigmatic clipped phrases. we all know about rumsfeld about his knowns and unknown knowns and his poetic sayingnd we gave characters in the film. he says all roads lead to munich d thene'll walk away. d also the other thing is they have a certainty about themselves which mns that, see -- >> charlie: it's re than about themselves. it's about the know better, theyave seen e truth d they will now -- >>nd therefore absurdity drives what the policy is. finally presented with evidence at there are well-known weaps of mass destruction. their automatic responses well they mt be hidg them. and in fact it's that certainty that drives evething. >> charlie the ps them into syria. >> but it also mes that the

building i not an aggressive one, it's acknowledge emotial psychologil one. if they speak to someonewho disagrees with them, their thinking is io longer need to ta to you because you are beneat me. >> charlie: benea me nor do you have -- if you don't understand me th you're too stupid for me to talk to. >> i'm wasting myxygen. >> crlie: tony blair, the real pern. >> now talki about at ceainty, blair, he said knowledge isn't e same as facts. i only know what i beeve. w that sounds great but if you anyze i only know wha i believe is the exact opposite of how we hav functioned as

western cilization for the last two and-a-half thousd years really, ever since artotle really that you ascertain empirical evince d your judgment. ani just thought that w an interesting insigh intohowe worked. he went wh a beliefirst and therefe everything that was present to him was filtered thugh that belief. charlie: at is it you ink made the decisions he made. >> i belve him when he said he thought it was theight thing to do. charlie: i do too. i don'think heet out to trick anybody, he believed it. >> no, no. he believed it was theight thing do but what i would argue i that's not enough. that's notnough if you're sendg people to die. that really isn't enough. government instinct th has to be backed up. especially if you hav not run out of options. >> charlie: if you could chge one thing about the way the world works as you s it

and as you create media about it, whether it's film, opera, television shows, dio shows, what would it be? >> well, i find i get frustrated with the notionthat possibly the more information we have and the mo opptunities we have to broadcast or to recd or to -- we fall into tnking erefore we've reached clarity whereas in ct -- >> charlie the more information does notnecessarily bring clarity. >> no. d also theappetite that to fill the sort of 24 hours news cycle. >>harlie: o what brings clarity. >> at pause. i think what's lacking now i use, the pods o -- pause of though i think it would be better if politicians especial work 9 to 5. we expect them to come up with

an answer when we stick a microphone in front them. we expect them to think everything through andave an opinion. i don't have an opinion on everything. i'm a terrible politician. if somebody said to me what shou we do with syria, i should do this on one han it's something to doubt within seconds but that presse we put on tm to be ableo peorm 24 hos a d, though i think prevents them fr having that pause really and being able analyze. >> charlie: if you we operating in ameri,ould it be diffilt to satire america. >> h has that ipiring ability in his speech but actlly he's very cleve at using words that in the end mean very little when he wants to, you know he's good at getng -- >> charlie what's an example of that. >> that requires me to fast

track his spch. >> charlie: know ectly at you mean. >> he would say this perfectly dece clear glass, the glass brought to us by the mothers of th past and wateredromhe caps of story into the c of the ture, you know. it's tt, which sounds gre. >> charlie: irepresents evything that has the strength and purity. >>es, yes, yes. with the bubbles of optimism that lie floatg on theassion of truth. i couldo on. but there's that. i alsoay, it's another thing when you work for one of the better world the satire indury, people expect you to beegative on everything. feeling is i would be probi ann politicaland i wl exaggerate where i start whe i feel drawn towards doing that. so my attitude to obama is not to automatically think here i another baddieanother politici who is out to deceive

and whatever. but what i think is impornt is that you don't get swayed by the e -- reverse and thiing he's on a title wav of optimism -- if you're alt to any mistake or any flaws and distortio that he might make. also when he comes down steps from a airplane, tre's a very using jiggle. >> charlie: you a i can see that. >> he hol the banter. he kind of comes dow the stair doing thathich ic find funny. charli "in the lp" artsuly 24th. >> july 24th. >> charlie: thank u for joining us. see you next tim captioningponsored by se communications

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