>> charlie: welcome tohe broadcts. tonight, racin america in the termath of the arres of a harvard professory the cambridge massachuses police officer. we talk about the meaning of this wit the reverd floyd make,avidemnick and raina kelly. >>hen this happens, it comes another time when you say we thought we were past this and here it is again. if it can hapn to dr. gates, then it canappen to me. >> thesere not questns anymore about, you know, kind binary queions about water

fountowns and lunch cnters they are questions about institutional racism. they're questions about incarceration rates ich are crazy and out ocontrol which have to do with thought just rasm but drugaws in the country. it's a complexf problems that i think obama's veraware of. >> it'smazing thatobama allowed himself to make that speech this afternoon. we're so used to seeing people haen their position over the course of a new cycle. i will never apologize. e rhetoric gets built up and built up and built up andthen when the american people say to themselves, please let this be over. >> charlie: we continue wh a new film opening this weekend dicted by armando iannucci. the floim satiies the leader in war to the mile east. >> i tught ther was something intrinsilly farce cull about the story, going out to

washingt, thinking they were in some way preventing george sh from going to war, and i ct by their very presence in the whitehouse, encouging him d enabling him to go to war. now i know you pull your ir out at that o you scream or you sa that's a farce, that's a total absurd sad events. >> charlie: a progra note. our conversion with ross doupt, the w york sometimes columnist will be seen next week.

ptioning sponsored by rose communications from our sdios in new york city, this is charlie rose >> charlie: we begin tonit with a conversion about race in americ inhe aftermath of an incident between a harvard professor and cambridgemassachusetts polic offir. the controvers ove thearrest of henry louis gates a promint african american profess. added to the controversy is critizing the cambridge police officer. >> rectly henry gates, jr. w rested at his hom in cambridge. what does that say to you and about race relations in america? >> well, i should say at the outset that skip gates is a friend. so may be little biased he.

i don't knowll theacts. what's been reported, though, is that the guy forgot hiseys. jimmied his way toget into the house. there was aeport called into the lice station that there might be a burglar taking place. so far so od, right. i an if i was trying to jigger -- well, guess this is my house now. itprobably wouldn't hpen. teym but my homenhicago. here, i'd get shot. aughter] i don't ow not having been there andot seeing all the facts, what role race played in th. but i think it's fair to say number one, anyf us wld be prty angry. nuer two that the cbridge police acted stupidly in resting somebody when there was ready proof that they were in their own hom

annumber three, what i think we know separate and apart from this incident, is that tre is a lon history in this untry of african aricans and latinos being stopped by lawnforcement disproportionately. that's just a fact. >> charlie: today the president spoke onhe phone with both professor gates and surgery crowley. the present asked t country to rlect on the broade meaning of thencident. >> my senses you've got two goodpeople in a circumstae in which neither of them were able to resolve the inciden in the way that it should have been resolved and the way they would ve liked itto be relved. the fact that it has rnered so much attention, i think is a testimy of the fa that ese are sues that are still very

sensite here in america. and so to the extent that my chcef words didn't illuminate but rather contributed to more media friendly, thi that was unfortune. my hope is that as aonsequence of this event, this ends up being what's called a teachable moment, where all of us,nstead of pumping up the volume, spend a little more time listening to each other. and y focus on how we c nerally improve relations between police offers and minority communits. and that instead of flinging accusaons, we can all be a little more flective i tms of what we can do to contribute to more unity. >> charlie: joini m is a former congressman and pats t the revend dr. floydlake,

also david remnk and rna kelly. i'm glad to have you all here to learn out the teachable mome onhis and reflect on the huge amount of attention e last couple days. i gin with yo flo flake. tell me, what shod we learn from ts? >> i thi what we arned is that there are still some remnants of the past and that those remnants are reflective in momes like these bause persons my age, 64, somewhere ound my age, the experiences of our pasre so deeply imbedded that whenan incident like thappens, it comes back up. it becomes another te when you say we thought weere pasthis an here it is again. and if it can happen to dr. tes, then it can happen me. itan hapn to m children. and so it comes another one of

those moments fear. i thin the big problem here is the identification and the way that theeighbors saw the person ting to get intois own use. i think that's the beginningof it all. and i don't knothat if tha habeen a white person trying to get into that house, there would have been a call to the police department in the first place. and a big challenge becomes one of not trying totereo typically look at people and believe at just because they're a different color, something is wng or treat them differentl i remember when was dean of students a boston u, and i went in a major store called lis, wonderful store, nice othes, it wasaturday, i h jeans on and a t-shirt and they look at me like i am o of place. i put o a suit, armani, on

purpose, went back monday, and they fell allover themsees trying to wait on me. i thinthe bottom line becomes when do we geto that place wher just because of how you look orjust because he hadust come off of flight and was not in a suit, did not necessarily mean he was criminal. th's the kind of problems we have to try to find a way to work our way around. >> charlie: is this diffilt because as t president said, these were two good men. >>t would appear that they are o gooden. the poceman is a trainer on racial profiling. and we all know who dr. gat is. reality is the terrible thing abouthis confluence of events brought it to a place where ion't thinkt should have gone. somebodyid not,either responded seems in a w they should have, and or reactions

brough brough into a place where here. >> charlie: here'shat the esident wrote inudacity of hope. laely through circumstances hai'in a situation aut the bumps and bruises the black man can endure -- durinmy 45 years have been directed my way. securi guards telling me as i shop in depament stores -- tellme theirar keys are outside a restaurant iting for the valet pulling me er for no apparent reason. know what it's like t have people tell me i can't do mething because it is my color and i knohe bitts are swallowed back. ll me how you se the esident's response to this. >> well rember there was a 60 minutes interview that i remember wellith michelle ama and barack obama. michelle oma said look i know

my husband can get hurt or killed if he in the coer gas station and gets i the wrong situation. these things are thank god les than they were. this police officer was not owley and it's great he was a traine but byhe avaible testimony on both sides of the evidence he was wrong. especially when he washown a university identificatn. skip gates isany this and wonderful things. he's a great friend. he uses a cane, he's not 26 yes old. he's not profiled. as far as what president oma d today, he's vy barack obama. thiss a man who, and it's a great argument for diversity including the presidcy of the united states. because george bushor richard nixon or bill clint would -- bn

would not be able to dowhat he did today. charlie: to call up the president. >> to modify his o statement. the tas a flexibility mind even if it has a political insult as well. but he had a certain kind of intellectual and moral gce in wh he did today. he did not want toe involve on this issue, he wantedo on the issue of althcarehich very hard. yet he probably went aword too ha the other night maybe he regrettedly sayi the word stud. he did what hs been doing all his li, reconciling. seemingly oppose points of view. that's his habit mind. that's what made him a harvard w review president his ability to attract nservatives over to his side as well as the liberals and left

wingers. he's been doi sin profiling in the statesenate. that a kind of specialty of bara obama. >> charl: you talk to friend today, pple you know, rican american, white, immigrants, if you've ne all that range of people. what's the resnse. does it break along certain lines that peopl would say or is there unanimity that because skip gates from haard a stinguished professor with a cane who makes it so vention what professor gates considered it to be. >> what's interesting me and iwrote aut that toy is that there's a realearinessith the ne cycle thatn evidently occurs when acial incident happens. instany you see people hardening theiposition.

refusi to have any kin of, as david said gra, mor grace, intellectu grace, refusing to bend iany way, and of crse e discrimination can never b about what t teachable phone is, it'sbout the pple using the availle evidence in whatever w to prove that they ve alws been rig. never looking, never lookin to se how ts could be a more anced reflection of where we e in terms of ce relations in this country. i thi this was a very teresting incident that happened. is is a hvard professor who happens to be an african american man. a white male boston police officer, excuse , cambridge poli officer who happens to be an expert in racl profiling. there's sothing there that eds to be recognized. and e fact that they happen to have an altertion that got

blown up to the point again where the cops are racis black people are oversentive. there'no such thing as racial priling. all cops are racial profilers. chdren, our people who elected an of current american president, ty do disservice. they deserve better conversationn therace in the mea. they don deserve a frey, they deserd a nuanced examination of wt happened. >> arlie: much of the media has beenputting professor gates and officer crowle either, back to back. >> yes. >> charl: there's been a he said shesaid kind of thing. these are gentlemen who clearlunderstand the impact o ce in their parcular field. certainly dr. gates does and it seems that a traine someone who talks about racial profiling althe time, this is a man who understands it a well.

they had a bad encounter. and i do believe that t sergeant was wrong to arrest someon for disorderly conduct. hover, disorderly condt has always been a shady area between individualitizens and the police. can you talk back to a police officer. can you, you know, ca you refuse their comma. but again, all that'lost in all the sound and fury. >> i just want to say thoughn defense of skipates' behavior, it was not dorderly conduct. 's demanding wha he's alled to by la a bae number and namehich was refused him. he showed id. yes,kipates showed some temper. you' dammed right i would but it'sot going to happento me. and that call would not have happened if i were breaking into my house, the incident wouldn't have happened if it weree. it wou have diffused alst instantly if it had. that said, i think that y're

solutely right, that these are, what obama entered - what obama added to this, which was not necessarily there until this afternoon was complity. >> i tnk yr reality here is, if it was ahite man and a white man, it would have been a different reaction. if it was a black man and a black man, it uld have been a differenteaction. i think tha the reaction is in large meure because it is black and whe. if it were not black and white, it would not be sigficant news story it would be twouys who g into a contest soo eak. and s nogiven anyground. it seems that neithegave groundnd at the endf the day, they would he settled it some way. it may have been a different kind of settlent. but at the e of the day, they would have seted it some way d it would not, itould not rise to the level that this

situation d. >> i think it got chesty, itot le. ry male. one mentioning ofour mom area exactly. >> charlie: wha should ts presiden d you thout long about president obama and race issues, during the cpaign, his speech, his bo, his life. what is he, what is his responsibility ahe said it's in my portfolio today? >> it was thrust in his portfolio justs it was thrt in his portfol during the reverend wright indent. he was caring arod notes for aace speech. it wn't news to him he was an african erican male running a dierent kind of re than jess jackson ohis edecessors. >> crlie: he was carrying around notes. >> he wanted to give a race speech. >> charlie: like a keedy

eech on catholicism. >> yes, he wanted to ce forward and do this. s advisors said look, everybody unrstands you're african american, let'ssee what wean do about tting a crital mass of votes. and along comes the reverend wright business in the spring and over a weekend, ridg alone for the most part. he puts together thi speech which most people consider a kind of masterpiece opolitical rhetoric in the highest a best nse. and it was tt, tt was the ultimate teaching moment. and it saved his campaign. if he had failed on that, that could ve started spiraling down terribly. i don think the stakes were by the as large here but again, he had to react. a lot of being president is drinking from a fire hose. you have to react everyay. >> charlie so what does he do now. >> he d it. >>harlie: thiss it. >> yes, i think he would woulde

deghted. >> charlie yes. so therefo he says i've done everything can? for the moment. >> not everything yet. i think wt he says is i will be the reeferee. because ift's a re issue, it's a problem for me. i can bri themogether so america can seeow you recollect nile these kind of issues. that's the most important thing now and i thi he wl make that happen. think the pice will come, i think skip will come. anat some point, some event willowcur -- occur where it comes to some conclusi where it's in se best interestnot just give gates and not just he policefficer t for the nation's sake is is the kind of coming gether, reconciltion that we have to have. charlie: so you meet and draw a laer message fm the conciliation from a the example of the kind of thing we

have to do on racial questions. >> i should think so. >> we have to becse reconciliation is not a concept that we have seen a lot of when it comes toace. 've seen violence, we've seen heatedords. rarely do we s t parties come together and say -- and intend in any way, sha or form. i mn, it's amazing that obama allowed himself make that speech. we've seen people harden their position ovethe course of a news cycle, i wl never apologize. e rhetoric gets built up and built up and built up and then wh the american people say to themselves, plse let this be overwe move on to something else. but really all we did is delayed payment. we've been delang, we've been delayingeconciliation, delaying dealing with our issues for years, decades. en. and each tim when there's a

chance to say let's come gether and have a discussion, let's learn something from this, it never happens. >>oming from a southern gregated background, our fathers taht you if youre stopped, you smile, you act like everything is okay. and i think that kind of thing ing in the spirit of so many of us who came out of tha kind of segreted background, it is still a realit tt we teach our kids the problemor african americans, and a my ks and my boys are now 25 and 27, the reality we have had to sit nights wondering whether or not, not worried about ether they went to aparty and sometng was going tohappen. but whetr they would be stopped onthe way home. >> it'sery difficult but i think forgivess is going be the key tooving on. and it mayote possible for you, i may not be possible -- think it's possible for me.

you know, i'm yoger, i did t have t same experiences as m parents o are in college in 19 but the next generation my son is interracial and vy to observe both ses of this debate and he has to decide whether onot he's gng to b angry a his fathe bitter at me or he's goi to t to move forward. we have to. >> charlie: i just don't know how we get the and how long it's going to take. the question iask of david earlr. i mean,hat kind of dialogue, what kinds of education, wha kis of, is it simply a matt ofime andgenerations and a president whoas the capacities that ts president has, people in the pulpit o has the capacity you've had in your experience? yove right. i woullike to see the roadmap and i would le to see how we

get there. >> it's aartialerm but it's also other factors. there are still not aican american kid who areot befiting from the whole bro versus board o education. you still have many people who would love to be homeownerseven if y took someof them out who cannot afforto dot because of law that migate against it. you still hav situations that on an every day basis, people are facing a reality a still at the bottom of the ap. and i don't kno wn i get up. and i think until you make equality,not just rhetorical word but a reality in theife of more and brinng people togeer. >> these are not questions anymor about, you know, kind of nary questions abo water fountains and nch counters. th areuestions about institutionaracism. they are questions about

incarceration rates, whichre crazy andout of control which have to do with not just racism burug loss in the country it's aomplex of problems that i think obama is very aware of. member he came into office with notwo criseso deal with but a dozen, and this was not first on the dan card. >> charlie: should it be put on the dance cd. >> think it's inevible and remeer again, i'm not here as theournalists should be critical mindebut i think even the most gent minded or critical mind recognizes that this esident came into fice with a fancial stem about to solutely collapse to wars, etcetera, etcetera. he's bn president fo six months. we've been around for 200- we've been around for a coue ceuries and haven't lve the things. i dothink thathey willnter into the agenda and if they

aren't, ere's going to be a lot dissoluon people, black and white. >> charlie thank you. >> you're welcome. >> charlie: thank you david >> thanksor hing me. >> charlie: we'll be back. stay with us. armando iannucci here. his television program have anged the fe of british economy. he cated the day today, a terrible newprogram considered to be a precursor to e daily show. he created, wte and directed the thick of it, a sit call in the offe politics of government bureaucrats during the blare administration. now he rected a fm loosely based that show, it is called in the loop. it started peter cali; steven kugen andteven kambeli. ta a look. >> in the fd. e mountain is unforeseeable but then it is suddenly vy

real and unfeseeable, thank you very much. >> he did not s unforeseeable. you had him say that but heid not say that. >> i don't think it's unforeseeable. i don't kw. >> no. >> no. >> it sometimes work. >> you know i'm against the w. wheris the intelligence. >> there's an informant >> i don't need them. they are all kids in washingt. >> you're goin to u it- >> wha does that mean. >> well think it justeans -- i don't know what it means. you're an idiot. >> n it won't. it wille difficult, diffilt.

>> johand yoko. >> you're a useless piece o-- funny, smart sophiscated commtee. >> have i heard the wd coittee. >> there a a lo of words. kansas city, kitty >> itty. itty is not a burden, bob. -- is not a rd, bob. >> you've lost me. >> geral fnt stone. he willkillnybody. that doesn't count. >> i will march t hound you

>> theproblem is civilians want to go to war. you don't want to be there unless you absolutely have to. it's like france. >> charlie: i'm pleased to have armdo iannucci here for the first time. lcome. >> pleasurto be here. >> charlie: this is polits suggesting that you 23 year olds play a larger than life role and dictatein many ys the way the world works. >> yes, yes. the film, yousee that alot of them, the state departmt functionoff the energy of 22 and 23 year olds and that's, a i was, a we re writing the film, i spent sometime during resech. i me a 22-year-old who is sent out to baghdad to help draw up the constitution. there was a 24-year-old w came up with a paper on america's funding of cenal america a hiboss was busy, his bs'

boss was busy so he was put in charge of central amera. >> charlie: wt elseshould we come away from in this film. >> well, we should come away withi think an understanding that hind those rather imposing edifices that y see in washington, all o the buildings that you see in wal street butlook from theoutside and makeou think i shoul pass them, everyone in there must know what th're doing. >> charlie: they mu know sothing and they know sothing we don'tnow. >> or that they think ty know at they're doing. d then you realize, i mean look wha happened, the house hearingsn wall street, where you got all of these bankers up inront of them going we didn't kn, weust were essing. everyone else was borrowin and thought we would borrow ney as well. th recognition that youeel away the edifice people like

you and me, pele w are butly threatening they've ne the wrong ing or worrying they're going to be found out or trying to draft their own patch of territory and mayb do it someonelse and maybeind the right mentor t attach themselves to. >> charlie: now, do you lik litics or a or politics. >> i've always en fascinated byolitics. i've never bee politically active but i'm prably a rely liberal but i'm fainated by the behavior of politicians. >> charlie: and y see in some cases the absurdity. >> well absoluty. that'shen politicians, and this is the new breed of politicis over the last ten years. when theyre obsessed by trying to monitor and control the news agenda andtheir obsession actually leadsto them comingup with policies fit t

adlines, rather than t other way around, then i find somethg absurd about tha >> charlie what brought you to "in the loop." >> it's rlly, it's base on, it in a fictional time where the itish prime minister and the americanresident are very committed to military invasion ovcome the middle east. we don know w the predent is or we don't know t country. >>harlie: and we don't s them. >> we never see th because i nt to s the middle pple, i want to s the middle manament politicia, the staffers and the deputy asstant secretaries of state and the underlingsnd the down frauden cabin ministers in th uk government who ar told what to do. >>hylawed done government, why not do twoovernments. >> bause i thought it was something ininsically farcical about going out to washingto thinking ty weren some way

prevenng georg bush from going toar and in fact by thr very presence in the whitouse, encouraging him and enabling him to go to r. i know youe pulling your hair out that or you scream or you think at is a farce. that is a total absurd set o ents. >> charlie we're going to see a slip n between the two leading american chacters. one, games gando wholays -- characrize him before we e the scen what does he represent in you imagination. >>e's the sort of guy who talkthe talk but wehave yet to find out wheth he walks the lk. he clearly wants to halt the march towards r. and theyre discussing a paper that's o of the staffers has written th really blows the whole caseapart but he' reluctant to be the one -- >> charlie: he's a carrist. >> he's a careerist in theend.

>> charlie: karen clark -- >> playshe secretary of state. and they are having a little chinese meal atunchtime. and he character's ally the only one becau james and his finery in his uniform and mimi's character the oy one that can puncture that pomposity, really. >> charlie: roll tap >> so you red line with paper i guess. >> no,i'm a voracious reade >> hedefended on it. >>e's gay. >> no, he'snot. >> beg to differ. >> he's gay because i've been saying -- >> he is gay. >> i guess i better stop there, then. it's ridiculous. the case against w is far strongerhan the case for w and the se for wars all to he. they believe t state is looking to exnd aggressely beyond t borders. the only source iceman.

he probably does ten bags of met methamphetamina day, the ice man. >> does he eve exist. >> he says he doesn trust him. we're dling withntelligence here >> when do you want t >> me? >> isn't that wt you were suggesting. >> no. >> y don't have to say it ce om you. >> no, i'mot leaking it. th is good today. >> i don't thin clinton reads. >> the little bit about gor vil is im provised. have a script but i encourage the acto to loosen up a bit. somemes when they loosen up we get all the lines againut a diffent order. mi and james togethe-- >> charlie: he sa i read

re vidal. and she said he's gay. >> the rulewhen you're floimg is always reond to what you hear. so shehroughhis lin in gore's gay and jim picks it up. >> charlie:he knows it's otherwisopportunity to play. >> yes, and heoved that. >>harlie: we'll take look at anoth piece. this is wheresimon pyed by m hallender mee with the prs. >> he's the mister for international develoent. y he's one othe good gs in the uk governmen he's the guys inharge of international aid, chaty work, that sort of thing. 's quite ante the war. the film starts wi him sing the war is unforesable and malcolm turker -- >> chaie: he's the masset of communication. role tape. is is simon meetg the press. >> thas right. >> it's going toe a nightmare.

>> do you wantto -- >> hello there. >> so, is warunstable in a sense. >> look, tre are all sortsf thingshat are actually very like are also unforeseeable for the -- theountain is foreseeable butthen itis suddenly very rea and inevitable. rit. >> is this youopinion or the government pition. >> t mountain is cpletely hard mountain that could represent anything. >> who is t mountain. >> let's talk the -- sotimes we need to be ready to climb the motain of conflict. thank you so muc >> sohere he is. he's been backed into making a very hawkish remark about climbing the mountain nflict and they see him as their hero. >> crlie: what's amazing

about this too, if this happen did mebody tell you this happens. they take a document and they rewrite . >> of course. >> charlie: th take out everything and change the meaning sot means if it's black it's now wte. >> y. there wa an incent in the uk when tony blair needed the votes of the british parament to go to war and he trumpetted so at france could use it within minutes. now it turned out this dossier in the e consisted of hythetical arguments, evidence that had sort of alifications, idence that was only from one source, nothi verified. and l of the civil servants who haveworked on thedocument, they re pressurized into taking out all of the qualifications in sa of saying well it might be possible tt

ddam could launch missiles within 4 minutes. antime in the cia when they re under pressureo come up with evidence, they cover themselves by presenting doments that basicly told the politician wtthey wanted to hear. but they p all their qualificions at the backn veats and appendices. so they're in court hearings lar on, they cou say why didn't you say we suldn't go to war, it's a disaster. they say well yes at the frt we've written perhaps you could go to war. d at t back we cld have saidut it will be a disaster. so they cld cover themselves with the cavea and it's playing about th tact and argument and slowly and soft bending meaningto fit the earsof the person who wants to hear it. >> crlie: tell me about creating the characterwho is based onthe idea of al stir

campbell who was of the principal advirs to attney -- tony blaiwho sat at thisable and tked about the blair. >> yes. >>harlie: and al stir campbell on thishow. >> remembeher. she to a snd on health. everybody decided she was meant actual becae they showed pictures of her with a could yo >> it was particularly powerful. look the prime ministerof this cotry doesn't drin blood. he doesn't g around biting -- >> i know t prime minister isn't a viking. >> hoppose physical violenc >> i was the doing a jobhere people did some time immemoria and time was chging faster an any pt of our lif it was becoming me aggressive and re politically judental. an the thi is they talked about me bullying all the rest

of it. ian spot a bully when see it, and i was in a room full of bully's twice a dawhen i was briefing the if i hadn' stood up to them, i would have been blown ay. >> and maolm tucker t charactewho is bas on author campbell, it's based on a algam of artr campbell and onymous enforces that there are in government. many of them you don't hear abt, you don't read about. the british politi as the enforcer make them snd like the demeanters in harr potter. and we wanted, we dn't want to doanimpression of alstir campbellwe didn't wantnyone who looked like him. meter campbell is scottish. we wanted someone who mmed his rage.

he's a pleasant iable person when you meet him in real life. >> charlie: alstir campbel >> yes, as peter crowley. privately when he'sealing with politicians behind the ene, he's ruthless, he's vicious. charlie: i read something in the mes of london whe alstir campbell came to view, somee suggestede viewhe show. >> yes. >> charlie: with someone ee or by hself. >> with a film critic the bbc. e idea was to sitnd watch it, tch the film. and they wanted me there as well. >> got the e-ma very late in the dayut alstir himsf spun that. >> charl: if you had gotn the mail would you have ge. >> who wants to sit next to your arch emy and present him with somethin-- i just that tha he would not riew the fm. he would certainlreview himseland that's what did. >> charlie: what d he d

>> he wrote a column t next day afr watching the film a said he fou itboring. i tell you 's one thing, 's boring. but i thght that's interesng cause if he says it's boring that ilies he'seen it all before. and yet halso argued that it was ahigh exaggerationof real lifend bore no relati real life and he chose as this particar example, he ose a whole section within theilm that deals with a comttee in th senate, a secret committee that is looking intoinvasion but s been given a verydull name. it's called the future planning committee. ddenly every senator on the hi who hasan experience, he wants to get on that committee and it grows and grows. you can't fill all the people into the rm. d alstir campbell saidhis s gross cartoish distortion except thaincident happened, that's an entirely factual

instant. dick cheney sets up an officef future plans ich looks to the feasibility o looking int the invasion of iran and syria. >> charlie: the allen paridge show you did also. what was tha >> that's charter played by steve. you mention the day day which was sort of a fake news program. it had real new and graphics and sound bytes and alan partridge. the thing about hims he has this inferiori complex which i think all spor journalists have which they woy thathey are being looked down un. >> charlie: they only do orts. >> yes.

the clevereople that know about politics. i think that they a incomplete journalis. alan partridge has this inferiority comple >> charlie: somof theest started out in sports journalism. >> yes, ectly. they are eat wordmiths. >> charl: they broug langge to newspapers. >> otherwise you're going to run out of methodsdescribing how ball gets from there to there until you start elaborati and making it more intesting. >> charl: what's interesting is people ke to thinkhere's a different of sensibility in britton th the united state on thether hand, things that have begun i one country have gone to thether and vice versa. >> yes, the office here is a great case in support. >> charlie: fore that it was arch bunker and redox and all those shows me out of british comedy. >> yes. there might be a case tha the grs is always greener and amicans sayto mehe british comedy's much more sophiscated. i come her tnking well actually the best arican

comedy, like seinfd and daily show is a sign of intelgence. there may something in the factn britton bit more defaulsetting is cynicism. there was a itish politician who was saying why can't we portray british poticians more like the westing and less like in the thick o it because in thwest wing -- >> charlie: they are minded. >> they're grea theyre good loong and intelligent. >> charlie: they speak well. >> they're loyal. whereas if we try to do that in a british drama, it would b ughter. it would blaughable. >> chaie: so unless you make fun of your politicians it has no remarkility. >> it'just not believle. i think the audience wouldn take it seriously. >> charlie: so is there less of a respectfor politics. >> y, yes i think so. and ilso wonder whether it's a fact that in the u.s. theole,

theffice has a charma of its in. the office of presidents the fice of the head of state wheras our head of state is the ... >> charlie: the queen. >> the littlold lady in the palace. whoever at downing street doesn't have hat charisma bestowed on tm. they haveo earn it. >> charlie: tre's also this. part of what you'vdone in your career i to give people a sen ofeeing something they haven't seen you're seeing sort of t abridged. u're see pple behind the scenes. you are piercing e curtain. >> yes. i mean that is the the trick we're trying to pl, it's shor in a very documentary way and jued and so . but i load itith authenticity and detailswe pick up saking the people i their environment seeing wha their vironment looks like. we sometes make stoes up and exaggerate them an then find

out that they ar true. andthat's the shocking thing. that's what i despair. you know that's what i fin like ridiculo, you know. >> crlie: it's lik you couldn'take this up. >> no, exactly. >> charlie: that's the exact pression. exactly. it sti happens. here t moment dick cheney is arguing that it would berong reveal secrets aut something which never happens. you think that absurdity is still esent. >> charlie tell me about the character who plays the neo -- >> did. he watchedohn bolton and was fascinated. >> charlie: is richd pearl part of this to >> rich pearl. there are lot of them. d they all have, they are all intelltually brilliant art from rumsfe.

they are all intelleually brliant but they speak very enigmatic clipped phrases. we allknow aboutumsfeld about s knowns and unknown knowns andis poetic saying a we ve characters in the film. he says all roads lead to munich an then hll walk away. analso the other thing is they ve a certainty about themselves whi means that, see -- >> charlie: it's mo than about themselves. it's about theyknow better, they he seen th truth an they will now -- >> a therefore absurdity drives what the policy is. finally presented with evidence that there are well-known weaponofmass destruction. their automatic response iwell they mus be hidinthem. and in fact it's that certainty

that drives everying. >> charlie: he putthem into syria. >> but it also mean that the building is not an aggressive one, it's acknowledge emotion psychologicaone. if theypeak to someone o disagrees with them, their thinking is i n longer need to talk to you because you are beath me. >> charlie: beneathe nor do you have -- if you don't understand me then you're too stid for me to talk to. >> i'm wasting my ogen. >> chaie: tony blair, the real perso >> now talking about th certnty, blair, he said knowledge isn't thame as facts. i only know what i belie. nothat sounds great but if you anale i only know what i believe is the exactpposite of

how we have functioneds a western civization for the last two and-a-half thousan years really, ever since aristleeally that you ascertain empirical evidee an ur judgment. and just thought that was an interesting insight into w h worked. he went in wit a belief fst and therefor everything that was presented to him was filtered throh that belief. >>harlie: wh is it you thk made the decisionse made. >> i belie him whene said he thought it was the rht thing to do. >>harlie: i do too. i don't ink he s out to tricknybody, he believed it. >> no, no. he believed it was the rht thing to do but what i would argue is that'sot enough. that's not eugh if you're sendinpeople to die. that really isn't enough. government instinct that has to

be backed up. especially if you have not run out of options. >> charlie: if youcould chan one thing about theway the world worksas you see it and as you create media about it,hether it's film,pera, television shows, rao shows, what would it be? >> well, i find iget frustrated with theotion at possibly the more information we have and the more oppornities we have to broadcast or to recor or -- we fall into thiing thefore we've reached clarity whereas in fa -- >> charlie: he more information does not cessarily bring clarity. >> no. an also the petite that to fill the sort of 24 hours news cycle. >> crlie: s what brings clarity. >> at pause. think what's lacking now is pae, the pods of -- pau of thght. i think it would be better if politicians especially work 9

to 5. we expect them to come up with an answer when we stick a microphone in front of them. we expect them to think everything through and he an opinion. i don't have anpinion on everything. i'm a terribleolitician. if somebody said to me what should we do with syria, i should do this on one hand. it's something tooubt within seconds but that pressurwe put on the to be able t perfm 24 hour a day though i think prevents them fromhavingthat pause really and being able to analyze. >> charlie: if you wer erating in america wld it be difficu to satiriz america. >> he has that insring ability in his speech but actuay he's very clever at using words that in the end mean very little when he wants to, you know. 's good at getti -- >> charlie: hat's an example

of that. >> that requires me to fast track hispeech. >> charl: i know exactly what you mean. >> he would say this perfectly decentlear glass, the glass brought to us by the mothers of the pastnd watered fm t caps of hiory into the cup of the fure, you know. it's tha which sounds great >> charlie: it presents everhing that has the strength and purity. >> y, yes, yes. with the bubblesof optimism that lie floatinon the psion of truth. i could g on. t there's that. i also s, it'snother thing when you workor one of the better worlds, the satire indust, people expect you to be native on everything. myeeling is i would be probing ann political d i wil exaggerate where i start where i feel drawn towards doing that. so my attitude to obama is not

to automatically think here is another baddie, other politicianho is out to deceive and whatever. but what i think is importa is at you don't get swayed by the e -- reverse and thinkg he's on a title wave of optimism -- if you're aler to any mistakes or any flaws and distortions that he might make. helso when heomes down steps from an airplane, the's a very aming jiggle. charlie: you and i can see that. >> he holds the banisr. he kind of comes down the stairs doing that wch find funny. >> charlie: "in the loo stts jy 24th. >> july 24th. >> charlie: thank yofor joining us. see you next time.

captioning snsored by ro communications captiod by media acss group at wgbh access.wgbh.org