tavis:ood evening fromñ glad you've oined u for a

about th u.s. auto industry and edi falco, cong up right now. >> there are so man things wal-mart islooking forwardto heping us ic lekg like elping yolive better. withour help the best isyet to cme. >> nationwide insurance prouly supports tavis sley. tavisnd nationwide isurance, working t improve inancial liteionwides on your side. >> and by contributions your pbs stion from viewers like you. thank you. aptioning made possible by kcet public levision] tas: it is such a rare thoing bet berry gdy to sit for

conversation about his lif and legacy he is sort of modest in that way this is the 50th anniversary of motown which hetarted at hiville, u.s.a., in detroit five decades ago. last night if you saw this program, we ran a cversation with mr. gdy, and the convsation got so rich,t th end of 30 minutes, i was just getting warme up. so i asked him if he could wod stick around for another 30 minutes to put anoth show onape so we could ctinue our conversaon about his life, his legacy, and that of moto which is the soundack to our lives. and i'm glad you could stick around for a few more mutes. sam i. tavis: we wee talking about your son writing. you were a boxernd you were writing songs. we'll get t motown in a second you staed writingongs. one that you wrote and sold was to a guy named jackie wills, a song we kn called "lonely

teardro." telle about that song. >> well, jackie was one of the greatest artistshat i have ever see and my sisters a ann and gwen were my big promoters and they introduced me t their boss, algreen, and al hpened to be ckie's manager. they were promoting me, my brother theoxer. theyome to my fhts. my broer the songwrir, help my brother. tavis: you had some good sisters. >> my mother, m siste, women in my life have been the biggest blessing ever. that's why i assiate with them in so many areas. my sisters were so strong. they introduced me to al green who was managing jackie willson and i got -- wilson and i ot a chance t meet wit jackie and i sawim at the flame show

bar and he wasr. excitement, the greatest. and so i wt to jackie and i said, you know, i wt to write fo you. he lookedt me and he was like overwhelmed, what do youean? write fore. i want to write a song for you. it's going tbe number one. welli don't have a recordi contract right now ts and that. if you write and sing my song, it will beumber one and you'll get aecording. tavis: i love yr confidence. >> i havelways had confidence, you know. and he said ok. nothat easily, but we got back and forth a i kept bugging him. ok, man, i'm here, i g some eat stuff. sonyway, i wrote a song with a partner of mine, billy davis and iwas called "reet

peti," the finest gifrl you ever want t meet. but made it a classic. he made it a classic. it was a b hit, his fir record. myead used to hurt when they would play the recd on the air. i turd on theadio one d and it was playing othe rao. i tned on dick clark was i wanted to see what he wasoing and he was playing the same record, it w that big. my headurt. that washe most exciting d probably i my life. anyway, so that was "reet tite." andhat i don't knowf i did "to beoved" with jackie after that o "onely teardrops." tavis:hey were both g. "lonely teardrops," really my heart was cryg when i wrote that song. tavis: i'm going t jump forward and come back again. your auto bgraphy which i ve so much is entitled "to be

ved." if you don have his book, you need to g it. is conversation n't do justice to it, you g to get hi book. so i your autobiography, "to beoved," that title for that ok was obviously very importan to you. there is so many things you could have named you book. so many things. wh did you go with "to be loved?" >> i wrote "to beoved," because like i said there such a rich histo, i'm the luckiest man in the wod, everything has word out right. i s divorced by my wife, you ow, my first fe becse i was basically kind of a bum. i was trying to do my music. i was trying tdo sff and i eventually had to get a job in theactory lincoln mcury where i t most of my ideas forhe assembly le and you

will of tt stuff that haened which we cano into another time. but, anywa so ieft my hou, i had no ace to go, ani had m b and i knew i could go to my siste's and i walked in there unannounced and everythi, 1:00 in the morning or whener it was a opened theoor and i was -- tears were in my eyes a lile bit but i said'm here. she said at do you mean? i'm here, i left. i know longer have anybody becae i know i can com here. home is a place when you have to go there, they haveo take you in. so i just felt is is my home. and my sisr opened the door. she said what hpening? i getting divorced. i have three kids. they're not goi to know me. th're not going to lov me.

she said don't wry about at, they'll love you the same as we do. me in here and get some rest. and i stood there and i just starte crying and i held her and i walked over to her pia. she had a pin yore an i sat down -- pia and i sat down and i sg the wor to be lovedto be loved, oh, what a feeling toe loved, just wro it out. so fortune and fame and all of that stuff. i sat there at theiano and i was crying and that became -- then i realized in order to be loved, you have to love. tavi that's the truth >> and thas how that came. b every song has a sry beuse what we do a motown and what we did at motown and what i tried to bng to all of the peoples we deal with truth. at's the truth to you? the truth to your productio

and so forth and so o phil how much did it help you then, turningo the motn story, how much did it help y then when y started wking th all of these artists we talk about diana a stevie and marvin and michael andis brothers in a second. how much did it help you when you became e chairman of motown that u knew the experience? there are a lot ofeople who run cord companies, but you knew the experiencef being a songwriter and havg number e hits. you ew the experienc of puing your truth on paper. i assume as head o a recor labethat helped you immensely because you had bn there, y had done that? >> objecting,ou're handsn and youo it yourself. i was a writer. i considered myself a gat iter. irote "to be loved." i wro "do youove me." irote all thosehings. i thought i w a great writer. smokey came in and i met him at

an audition, jackie's auditionk and ty turned him don. i love you,ou're great. smey said, well, i was tned down, but i'll help you and i did. so we got together and smokey athat point was not -- i listen to a lot of the songs, he wasn't a great writer. he was a brilliant poetut he wasn't a greatriter. tavis: you taugh him. u got to tell a story. it's got t have a beginning. >> that's it. anyway, oncee got it he became incdible putting the stuff together and tn me as a writer, dropped down a couple notches andhen when, you know, whe stevie and marvin came i dropped dn way i was likeyou know, ias like in freefall, you know as a write and the other artist and holland, eddie holland,

awesome. and it kept happening roughout my career and i kept dropng, lionel rich. tavis: how did you e handle that? >> great because i kept telling myself, you kw, you want to make people happ they werall happy and i was ppy they were happy and i got a chce to learn so much more about life, you know. i still wrote but my songs re like turned down after that because we had a friday meeting -- tavis: before y tell this story, i wanted to g there you ready mind. i wa to preface this before u tell this story. i was i new york a few weeks ago. i stay in e same hotel all the time, at a particular hotel, i askedhere they were performing for a fights. i wet down stasnd bought me tickets to see nick and val and i satn the audience d enjoyed the show.

at aertain point in the show whethey start singi the string of hs that they wrote for manyf the motown artists, they tell thetory of h they got into mown witherry gordy. u want to hear a story, nick can tell the story of the first time he wen to motown and sat around thi table for the friday meeting. he tells great storyut how went down. you're abo to s every friday you had a mting, you sit around theable and play the records. it's a gre story. >> we comto this room and we sat arou and in that room you were imme to anything. youould say anything, you were imme. yo could talk about me. you could say myecordsere garbage or whatever it was. they were all iune and ty knew theyould talk to me as the chairman ke that and there is no reprisals bause sometimes the salesepartment, they want to put out record and get into the meeti and they would just knock it down.

they would sometimes take reprisals on the peoe that dn't go with whathey wanted. oncehey told me about it, those guys were i real trouble. when you cominto this meetg, it's aboutruth. but the of course, i had lost out becau a lot of my rords lost outo smokey when ty put mine up and his up a his would win. they wer only doing that because i was thehairman and they had theight to go agait my records. i had always told tm, you know, i'm in charg but logic is the boss. ifou can prove me wrong, do it. so lot of those records that smokey got credit for, hits, i had som better hits that didn't get out. they were in the can because ople were justad, they got mad at me. they wer on smokey. tavis: that's yr story and you're stickingo it. >> that's right. tas: as nick tells the story -- >> i want toay about nick and val, they were at t

and their first rord that they came in, i believe iwas the marvin gaye record marvin and tammy and their record jt won has down. but they were incredible. tavis: he tells the story wha scared him waso that meeting that you describe aboutruth, right before he got up, they had voted down a numberf other records. th person before him was smey. on that particular day, smokey's record t voted down. heaid that was it for him a val. he kw he was in trouble. he played the record an y'all toohim in and the rt is history. ey started writing hits for mown. >> they we awesome because their record was so stron and theyere just great all the way. in fact, they we single-handedly responsib for diana ross' single career. they wrote the wle alb. those peopl they were awesome. tavis: this is a story tt i have hrd so many times, but

its so movg for me a yo ha been so humble aboutt over the yea that it's worth elling again that is the hit that almost wasn't. you and marvin went back and forth over "wh's going on." y'all went backnd forth, maybe one of e best songs ever written. you went back and forth. marvin won in th end. tell me about that. what were you n hearing? what wereou missing that day, mr chairman? >> wasn't missing anying, u know. i led the record, but i was his manager and i was his record company and i w all those things and was like the prector of these young people. marvinaye was the bigst pop singer that motown had ever seen with his stature and erything. yore wonderful one, pride and joy. all the stuff that he did, "i heard it through the grapevine," marn was our

superstar ngle male and i was his maner. so when he camep with this protest record, this protest recor police brutality, all of these things that were vietnam war. wait a mute, this is my sex symbol guy and all of a suen he is coming in and, you know, that's kind of rough. but i was more conceed about him as his mager. so'm saying, marvin, do y really want to comeut, police brutalit vietnam war, you g this great career going? we want back and forth and he was -- but marvi was the kind of person, had to know that rvin was the kind of person at would just disagree to disagree. i mean, he had a long histo wh he came into the ompany, he wanted to dorank sinatra songs period.

marvini want you to be you. beho you are, you know. so he did this album andt was a beautiful great album, but it didn't sell. in fact, i used tellim, i said it went double plastic, marvin. tavi not doublelatinum, double plastic. aughter] >> so tn i sai ok, the next song he did, it should be something moreike who you are. so they wrote a song called " mething kind of fellow. they put it outnd it was a big head. he realized being himself. so at that poinhe was himself and he jus got into it. so when he came into with hat's going on," he was himself more tn i wanted him to beimself. th's what he felt. he convinced me. man, i reallyeel this, you

know,nd i want to aeousen thminds of men. i have a broer in vietn. i have this. whatever he did, heas convincing that he reall really -- i sd what about your career, marn? i don't car about the career. i want to awaken t minds of men. tavis: how tragic, i don know if you have the wds for this, it's annfair questn, it is, i can move past it. i know how the rest of us who still lovearvin felt when we heard the news on that april. i know i and a bunch of others, i tught it was a very,ery sick apr fool's je when i heard the news of marvin's passing. how do you -- how did berry gordy navigate hisay past that newwhen you heard tha >> well, i don't know, i guess, you know most of us were just numb, period, because w had a greatersonal love forarvin.

were just numb. itwasike we were just, it was, you knone of those things whe it s unbelievable f such a long time, you know and i mean we were like the restf the world. we were saddened and, you know, it was just a horrible day for all of us. tavis: let me ask you another impossible question sin i'm on a roll wh impossibl questions now. if anybody can answerhis question, y can. i have never aed this of anybody becae i felt you would have somethi to say something abt this. th're not the same a, obously, but stee comes to you as lite stevie wonder. michael comes to you as miael jackson, but they're both kids. compare and contrast, you g two kids who come to yound become towering artists as kids. assess f me what you thoug, what you saw, what you heard when you got little stevie

wonder kid, michl jackson kid, you got twoids her >> well, stevie wonder was firsand i tried not to even see michael jacon because stevie was iredible. he was young guy. he was a younglack kid and his mother was s tough on us ani didn't even le his singing, you know. i didn' like hisinging at all. he played bongos and sung. i lov his harmoca playing the first recor we put out o him was a harmonica. he was great, but for theind of work and trouble. he hado have a tutor he had to have a produr would travel with him. he had a teacher. his mother was with him. it was like an entourage and the blind kid wasn't bringin

in any money at all. and his mothe was demanding all this stuff. she was so lovble and she loved her child souch and she really thought he was greater than he was at the ti. tavis: athe time. and he wanted tbe with motown s bad, but, y know, but his mother wasike -- and she turned out to be just a great wonderl mother. we have ng talks andtuff like that. and he just developed into -- his hmonica thingirst, and then he got luckyith a record at the powell where hwas doing his little cla your hds a little bit louder. what's the name of that? tav: fingertips. >> that was a big hit. but little baby voice. tavis: talk aut that drama, you dn't even want t see five kids. >> oh, no.

i was toli got this group. th're kids. >> i said, oh,o. no thank you. and she said, oh, no, please, mr. gordy just listen to them. no, iot stevie wonder and that's eugh. i don't wano kids, tutor and this and that. she said, pleas you just listen to them. iasn't going to but just listen to them. she said bobby tayr, one of thertists had turned her on to thi group. they were justgreat. so knowing that she hadood taste, i sd ok. i just listenedo them and natully when i saw them, i went and grabbed my little new videotape rorder and start filming these kids. they were so great. and e little tape you see with him, e little ks on tv or whateve you see vis: you recorded that. >> tt was my recordingf it, yeah. tavis:oxer, song wriringt, chairman,ideorapher.

>> it was so much fun. and you don realize what fun. the love throughout that whole thing and wt we're going to do for the 50th is t show we d a lot of stuff coming, cumentary telling in long form documentary and a it's different in terms of aspects of i it was a phenomenal thing that happed and wan it t happengain so, thereforei'm tryingo whenever i tal to the yog people and peopl that really fl that they are -- like i total the "vanity fair" people, you can do a story. what can we ask you? ask me anythings long as you deal with the truth. they asked me everying from theafia, the this, the that, th whole thing and they the went to the artts and got the truth and went tthe people that worked there and wen throh all of the people. did yo rea the article?

tavis: i did >> i was very gratifiedhat the story is out. e legacy is fine i'm in great shape. tas: he is better than great shape. i speechless and i neverm but to have th opportunity to sit for not one night, but two nights with berry gordy with the legacyhat he has lefor leaving and he ain't going anywhere no time sn. the lacy he is leaving and the life that he is leading all ofour livesre enriched. imagine for a moment. take two sonds and imagine r a moment what our lives would be like had tre been n motown. that's not enough. i don' want you to get a miaine. i can't igine life without motown. and so, it's f cebration for motown. there is a beautiful 10-c. deluxe boxed s shaped like t house that motown was made

in and still exists in detroit. >> those are hs from around th world. the number o hitsrom around th world. the origina number one hits. tavis: that's whythe box is so g. honor to haveou here. e pleasure is mine. that's our show for tonig. catch me on the weekends on p.r.i. or aess our rad podcast at our website good night from l.a. thanks for watchin and as alwayskeep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tas smey at pbs.org. glad ou've joined us for a

about the u.s. auto industry and edie flco, coming up right now. >> tre are so many things wal-mart islooking forwardto heping us doing, like elping yolive better. withour help the best isyet to cme. >> nationwide insurance prouly supports tavis sley. tavisnd nationwide isurance, working t improve inancial literaidis on your side. >> and by conibutions to your pbs station fromiewers like you. ank you.