>> rose: welcome to the broadcast. we begin with theramatic story that fmer president clinton has gone tnorth korea, me with kim jong il and secured the release of two american journasts. we talkto jo cirincione and glen keser. >> this was a high risk but pontially higheward move on the part of two power players one, of course, isresident obambut the otheris predent bill clint. there isn't another piece onhe

board that presidentbama could haveeployed that matched the poweand just aention grabbi of bill clinton it, of course, is about essentiay the security and release of those two journalists but asreen ys it's potentially much more. >> most north korn eerts would say this is part of th kindf play book north korea likes too. you rahet up the tensis, you find a face-saving way out. the real test will be how does thobama administration take advantage ofhis potential portunity. and whether or not north korea is willing t engage in a substantivway that will actually lead toeal progress. >> rose: andthen the case of a "neweek" reporter journalist who lives in iran and was covering the iraan elections when he was detained on june 21 he's still in prison andwe'll talk aut that with "newsweek's" edir john meacham

spl >> whas so disappointing is we for six weeksave rpectfully as that he... that iranian law be folwed. they areot followi their own duerocess. the other thing that's unfortunate is iran clearly wants to be pa of the fami of nations they want to be taken seriously. they want to be part ofthe world community. but is is not the way o acts ifne wants to d that. >> rose: we conclude wi part one of a two part nversation with general tonyinni, a stinguished marine who seed in t mitary all of his life with obseations about amera's role with america's role in the world, especlly middle eas >> i've heard both sides, arab and israeli,nly you could do it, put it onhe table, i'm coinced that for it to be a comprehensive sustainable plan they have toork it out, put it onhe table wehould not be in

the an of putng it on the table. >>. >> rose: the head ofkessler motorsas scheduled to tell us about his electric car, that interview willake place later. to want, president cnton in north rea, john meaam and general tony zinni when we coinue. captioning spoored by ro communications

from our stuos in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: bill clintoarrived in pyongyg on an unannounced visit. north koreantelevision is reporting the forme president left the country, the jailed journalists with parre pardoned followingn apology in a meter wi kim jong il earlier today. the missioncomes at a tim of hehtened tensions between washington and north korea over its nuclear program. as we tape thi broadcast at 7:00 p.m., t white house has nocommented on theelease of the journalis. joining me from washinon is glen kessler, diplomati correspondent r the "washingtopost" and joe rincione, president ofhe plow shares fund, i am pleased have them both onthis

ogram, welcome. >> pleasure be with you. >> thank y. >> rose: i wan you both to tell me everything you know about what happened. (laughter) >> what we know is thathis was a carefullarranged agreement put together by thwhite house, the state department and varus other back channel people, acadics, congressional officials d so forth. the deal was set befor the rmer president left the unit states to go to pyongyang. it was a kind of mission of respect to the nor korean leader, he wanted the images of a former president ther at his si and thegreement was that he would pick up... the presidt would pick up those journalists d take them back home, they wou be parned and that would end this irritant in u.s./north korn lations and would potentiallyallow the two des to move forward now with talks that might lead to

progss on their nuclear programs. what i would add to that was thisas a high risk but potentially high-reward move on the partf two power players. one, of course, is preside obama but e other is esident bill cnton. therisn't another piece on the board th president obama could have deployed that match the power and just attention grabbing of bl clinton. it, of course, i about the security and relse of those two joualists but as glenn says, it's potentially much more. for rth korea all things american are connected. and this could lead to the restoratn of direct bilatal talks between the united stes and north koa. potentially north rea freezing its nuclear pgram again, ming back to the space walks and the process of... six party lks and the denuclearization of north korea the's a lot of pieces nown ay.

who got it done? you mentiod the president and kim jong il. who t it done? >>ell, i'd be interested i ur view... glenn, gohead. >> well, i was jus going to say that think there were a number of playe here. obviously the white house decided they would make this move and picking bill clinton is aninteresting choiceecause, as you may recall, presidt clton nearly wentto pyongyang at the end of 2002 he dided not to do it in part becausthe isrli/palestinian tas were going off the ras and so it kind of fill in the missinpiece. it kinof closes tha circle th from north korea's perspective much of the sh administrationears were kind of a lost opportunit for them and itcloses that circle and maybe can mak them feeletter about themselves >> joe, you think that's possible? that, you just said, that mething good could come out this now that th ice has been

broken? >> oh, yes i do. whether by designor by acdent the obama adminiration has played the north korean situion just about peectly. for the first eight months of the adnistration, they larly ignore north korea. i and othersere arguing for negotiations earli for this kind of move earlier. ether it was policy drift or arguments within the administration, th didn't do that. as a rest north korea issued a lot of pvocative statements, ok some provocative actns in terms of tes, e., got them nowhere. the north korean gornment is now more isolat than ever. 's been deserted by its major partrs, including ina who secretary of sta clinton praised just last we for the role they'r playing as ll as russia and their neighbors. thiseakened position, in th weakened transition piod whe the leader is dyingnd looking to solify his role, possly pass it on to his son, they made their power play, when north korean behavioroderated, when north korea hast ne

anything particularly o havingive the the last couple months they move inhis piece to asko put them this box, they open up a door and show them the wa out,how them the benefits of cooperation, dialogue, and negotiaon. is could set the pattern if the obama adminiration now follows it up for another bad seof negotiations, freezing of t nuclear progm and a denuclearization of nort korea. >> rose: two qstions... go ahead, gln. >> i was just gog to sayes, it's also kind of interestg how... and this gets to the high stakes othis manver. thwhite house and the state department have be completely sint about this. d, in fact, have aays... kind of said, well, it's the rmer president on his own human turn a ssion even tugh behind thescenes they helped arrange alof this. and hillaryclinton-- of course president clion's spouse-- madeertain statementskind of ratcheted down se of the rhetoric, talked about t mistakes thathese reporters had made and kind of ened the door for a diplomacsolution

and yet at the moment neither the state department or the white house nts to say they had ything to do with i >> rose: shehad, in fact, asked e government of nort korea to give amnesty to these two women, hadn't she >> rig. and she id that after she also said that theyad made a grave stake which was the kind of apogy or admission that north korea was looking for. rose: and they had expressed great remorse for enterinthe country the way th did. >> yes,hey did. they did that in a phone call back to the unitedstates. >> so you can see witho making any concessio on the part of the unit states at all they found a face-saving y for north korea to bac down. and that is the art of diplomacy findina way for the other side to do what you want them to d >> rose: okay. i just have this question joe. was th idea of ung clinton-- theormer president-- theorth korean's idea or the obama administration's ia? >> well,ere's what i know about and gl may know more. i s involved in vario grain

storng sessions in the earer pa of the adminisation where we floated theidea of a highevel envoy. bill richardn was sgested. al gore was suggested. after l, the urnalists worked forim. no onehat i know in these public brainstorming sessions or semi plic sgested bill clinton. that. i understand at the nort koreans tmselves raised this idea and t obama administration seemed agree with it. the other possibility was forr president grge.w. bush, but clinton was deed to be er to the obama administration, a more appropriate figu. >> rose: there's so... go ahead, glenn. >>y understanding is that gore was kind of the choice the ministration offered. rth korea didn't want gore, th wanted someonelse like clinn and it's not that it's any kind of disrespectof gore will, but because goreas so osely associated wh these two jrnalists, they worked for

a ty program that he co-founded that perhaps the north korns viewed him less as a representati of the united stes and more of a represtative of a company and therefore they preferr someone like president cnton. >> rose: clearly--... from what you have said, kim jo wa looking for a way out of this. this hadecome bigger and more of a proem than it had anything else, correct? >> i think that's true. and... go ahead,lenn. >> i agree. i would agree with that. that... >> but i also think he's looking for mething... a way out of more than justthis journalist situatn. he'sooking for a way out of th standoff with the unid statesthe most powerful country in the world, and a country in that north kea wants to be its protector to protect it from what it es as hostile states all aund it, countries that have invaded nortkorea over the centuries. and e way he was tryingto sort of gethat didn't work: testinging nuclear weapons testing missile, provocative

statements. none of that behavior was rewarded. this behavior--ooperation, agreemen negotiation-- thiis where he getsrewarded. >> rose: issume also you could y that the obama administration diplomaticallis on the madge aund the world and th want to be part of that. >> i thi that's exactly right. >> yea i'm maybe a bit more a skeptic that thanjoe is. i mean, we'll see. most north korn experts would say that this is pt of the kind of play book that nort korelikes to do. likes to ratch up the tensions, u find face-savin way out. the realtest will be how does the obama administration take adntage of this potential opportunity? and whher or not north korea is willi to engage in a bstantive way that will actually lead to rea progress. i mean, thisdministration has said there not going to pay twice for the se agements at were de before and we see... i'mure the north

koreans are master at this, whether or nothey canxtract something ahead of time in exchge for the same things they've given befo. >> rose: was it guaranteed that the formerresident would see kim jong il? wathat part ofthe packa? was thatmportant t both sis? i think it was important to noh korea. i don't know how important it was to the unid states. >> i w just going to say it's alsonteresting who accompanied president clton. he was accompand b john desta who was former white house chief oftaff and also the transion director for president obama. he was accompanied by a former gh-ranking state department official who is a specialt in kore affairs. no government officials-- current vernment officials-- but a prettyood, powerful tea of people whore experienced in north korea and wouldbe good observers of kim jg ilnd how he's acting. >> rose: is it also truehat thformer presidentas met by oh high-leve officls, the chiefuclear negotiator and the

vice parliamentary speaker? thate got some kind of state dinner? that ty really treated thi as a big-time visit beyd the release these two people? >> yes, clearly. >> yes, that is true. and nuclear experts that i've talkedo have identified the people who greeted him at the airport as the nuclear gotiators. so yeay from the very beginnin from the mines president inton walks off the plane the north koreans ar makingthe connection beten this visit and their nuclear program. >> rose: what's t next sp? >> well, the ne step is we're going to have press stampede tomorrow at the losangeles airport when thaplane toues down this is an irrestible story. on the bigger piure, the poli picture, now we'll get more infmation fmhe obama administration which may will then reveal tt, in fact, it was aware of this visit and d koort nate with it now the key queson is how does obama follow up? does he ta a small ste

is it a all gesture or does he have t courage to follow through on thehis kind of power play with a big me back to let north korea know here's what the cards are on the table, here's what an arrangement could ok likeith us, if you freeze and start rersing your nuclear program, here's whate're prepared to do and this time don't mess it up by shortchanginthem on fuel oil deliveries or putting sanions on at the sa time that you're trying to negotiate with them. 's all there for the taki. it's bn there for th last ten ars. we just han't been ae to sealhe deal with them. right. i would... on asmall scale i wod expect there would be a meeting between thepecial envoyor north korea, sven boss worth and, you know, a north korean unterpart. yohave a bilateral meeting whicis... you know, the administration would say, oh, it's all in e conte of a ltilateral negotiating round but if y have a bilater meeting that would be something that would be pleasing to the north koreans and it would be a

wato draw them back into negotiations. >> rose:and you see fors it's really small change whether we have a meeting with them rectly or not. ere's nothing that we are really giving up he, but a this means a lotto the north koreans and we can get a lot fr them, including the ending of their program, t ending of exports, no more aid to countries like syria or maybe rma onheir progra. we have a huge amounto gain and very little thawe have to gi up. >> ihink i read i the "l.a. mes" that the former president was eager to do this when aed. >> knowing bill clton, i wod expect him to be eager. it wld be a way toelp out his wife, help out this admistration, and show that he a playe rose: it's also the notion that when the trantion was taking pce and she was under consideration, the question came up, wl, what will the present do with the former president? clearly they found very good thing to do with him.

>> rose: you know, the is a certain irony here, of course, in that15 years ago aost to this month bill clinton turned to another former esident-- jimmy carter-- who met with anher north korean leader who was just weeks away from dying, kim ill song, and that helped create the spark that led to an reement that froze nort korea's nuclearprogram through a numberf years. now, tt former president, jimmy carter was considered by the then clint administration to have gone a little bitoff the resertion and so far you uld see that this former prident appearance tohave pled the script perfectly. >> as glenn pointed out, madeleine albright was the last high-ranking officl to visit north korea a bill clinton coidered going and didn't. he left officend handed this off to e bush administratn expecting them to clinch the deal. remember, nortkorea was not producing plutonium,ot tesng

missiles the baigs had a different vi, like vice president dick cheney saidwe don't negotiate with evil,e defeat it, with overthrow their regi." thattrategy backfired, north rea made more progress in th last eight yearshan they did under reagan and cnton combin testing weapons, testingissiles, now this i a chance for bill clinton go ba and say "see my policy worked, let show you how to do this." rose: thank you both. it's an extraordinary story. >> youe welcome. >> our plesh yush. >>ose: we'llbe right back. ay with us. >> rose: iran ha detained several journalists since the iran electn, 40 o them are still inrison, amg them is maziar bahari, he was with "newsweek" magazine in iran. he was detained on june 21 and was brght before a mass trial last saturday. he has not had access to a laer or had fmal crges issued against h.

bahari, a native'reian, has worked for "newsweek" in tehra since 1998. he's been living there wh his elderly mother. he's alsoade several docuntary films andd is a playwright. ining me now johnmeacham, the edit of "newsweek" magazine, and i'm pleased to have him on this broadcast to talk about this case d what is taking place. welcome. >> thank you,ir. >> re: how did we get here? why was he arrested? what do youknow about ts? and what is tang place in order to get him out? >> well, as you say,he 21st of june, so nine days ter the election, he wasicked up, taken to prison, had not been granted access to a lawyer, as you said, no formalcharges, givenhe... what we believe to be force confession over the weekend where he said that the sternedia was, in fact, try to foment a revoluti in iran, a statent that came in a foed press conference after six weeks of ctivity, six

weeks. >> rose: and no contact wit the outside wod in any way. no lawyers? >> no lawyers, four cal home to his motr o whom he's the sole support. he and his bride e also expecting a child in novemb. so the persol surround on thi particularly paiul. he had covered t election, had covere iran for a long time, quite fairl there was no complaint whaver beforeha. there's not. it's not as though this is aecord of a dissident who, in the emotion of the election theyaidlet's round up the peopl who have beenagitating." he was being a journalist. he was being documentarian. he was being a witness to history as it unfolded. >> rose: and h had all the credenals knows do that. >> erything. everything. and fully credentled, fully in

so far as one is recogned by the regi. so our sense is-- and who knows if we will ever know exactly why-- is as the reme tried to offer some explanaon, tried t crt a narrative for the protests and thereaction to th preme leaderarly announcent of a landsle for ahmadinejad, who wilbe sworn in on monday tois second four-yeaterm, they dided at maziar bahari appareny wasomeone that they could fit into a narrative. representative of western institution. someone who hadaken video, had done video reporting. so iso far as one can discern tives, you can see from the regime's point of view h you

would that if youere looking at in thehat cracked kind of way. what's so disappnting we for six weeks haveespectfully asked that he... that iranian law bollowed. they are not following their own due process. the other thg that's unrtunate is iran clearly was to be part of the family of nations. they want be taken serious. they wt to be part of the world community. but this is not the way one acts if o wants to dothat. >> rose: so that means two questions. one,hat's the evince they wa to be part of the world community? and, secondly, y are they acting this way? i mean, do they comprehend that it is, in fact, injurious t eir repution? and the word cmunity? and, b does not further tir dmauz th effort at all? >> it doesn't. ani think these are the wages

of totalitarianism. yohave a theracy, youave a government, a rime, that is fearful for its suival. when regim are frful they tend to ovreact. histortells us that again and again and aga. and i think most of the signals we get is that the country does not want to be like nohkorea. i think it wants to be an outliar. it has ambitionto be a power, but to bthat power, to be part of the world, you need t play by not onlyor people's rules, not only piepeople's rules but you have to play bytheir own rules. and their due process has en violated her n maziar bahari's case. >> rose: a couple ints of what

you have written and then what you're doi and how youhink ybody can help make the case. you're sayinin the magazine that they would like t play bahari aa kind ofubversive or even as a spy. he's neither, a journalt, a man doing hisjob fairly and juciously. when hwasrrested. he is an agent oy of the tst best he can see i and his body of work pros him to be a fair minded observer who eschews ideological cant for a wider world view an persuasely, for instance, that iran's nlear prram is an issue of natnal ide not just the ldership's obsession. you alsoay his ca is an opportunity for the govement of iran to show that is a well-intentioned membeof fapl a family of nations, country to be tak siously onits open terms. it's an opportunity,e respectfullyubmit, that should not be misse how do you get your ofn behalf of a valuabl emploe to a

governmenthat isasting wide n to bringeople in out of its attitude towards the protest in t stets and it's indiscriminatend who is caught in the n. >> well,we talk to you. is we talk about hit in t magazi. we talkbout it at "newsweek".com and would ask... jump to the last part of that. if peoplwould like to sign a petition calling f his rease newseek.com is the place to go. our friends atreporters without borders and th community proprotect journalists he been very helpful what the message has to be, it seems to me that there is no arge. in so far as we have heard in his voice from this show press conference which folwed the show trial this weekend.... >> rose: is that why you're speaking out today, ffz trial over the week en, th show trial? >> yes. >> rose:ll right.

>> and the fact that he... not looking hale and hearty by any mes. he was onl.. only four calls to his mother, no access to lawyer he was brght out and saidhat the western media was trng to do this. well, what the western mia, at least in o case,as trying to do w tell the trut about the countrin its complexity. in fact, the issue of the magazine rightefore the election was quite counrintuitive and a lot of it wamaziar bahari'sbout how the caricature of iran as part of the axis of evil-- to use president bush's phrase-- is simply... doesn't hold up. and so i think in its strgle to control something that was beginning to feel uncontrollable the rege decided that it neededo construct aarrative to compete with the narrative of

the protests in favor of a more open process. and that narrativ required pointingut to the west, to subvsives, to outside pressuretrying to topple t legitite regime. at's the narrative that's been developed in this sw trial, the reformists,he tsiders ha agitad against t true will of the iranian peoe. that what the regime woul like people tobelieve. weave world enough in time to decide and figure out what the fate of iran if the modern world should be. maziar bahi should n be a pawn in a regime struggle to corol its own people. >> ros what is to be lened if what happen in north korea? >> well, that's very good point. these things a intertingly tersecting. i think onehopes that ere is a similar result. that there is a release, there

is a happy conclusion, a pardon. en you are deang wit a totalitarian regime, y are dealing with... by necessity u're dealing with something at works on whim more than it works according togic. and even when it works according to logic, often it's its own perverse kind. so one would hope that a lesson that the folks in tehra might learn from this is that holding journalists... again, hding... in particular holding someone whose canon of work is outthere d which isot... does not fit in to any reasonable narrative ofhis man is an agitator, it's just not true. >> rose: here' what i'm... you can't communice, you can only

talk to his moer. >> yeah. >> it's very hard. the man in a prison and the wyer goes there and can talk to him. so we are in a... i hesitate to use this, because it's cliche, but it an orwelan situation where, you know,ou have someone who was dnghis job for a wester media orgization who's being asked, told,oerced probably into ying that the western media wacovering a story. well, yeah, was maziar bahari working with t western media covering the protes tt ensuin from the election? absolutely. if you makehat a cri then you're in kind of "through the loingglass" worldwhere everything iseversed. and our pe is that his due

process rights will be obsved. we can talk about the pross we've all been ing through since the 21st o june when it's all over. >> ros thank you >> thank you sir. >> rose: john meacham,he editor of "newsweek"alking about his reporte who is there who has be detained in tehran since june 21. ck in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: general anthony zni is here. during his careers a a marine he led central cmand, the force that oversees the middle east in sou asiuntil he retired 2000. months later he returned as president bush's envoy to the mile east but as e bush administration prepared to invade iraq, he becam known as one of theost senior retired

commanders to oppose the war. earlier this year, he was a top choice to serv as president obama's bassador to iraq before christopher hill was named to the post. recently published his lates bo, it is titled "lding the charge, adership lessons from the battlefieldo the board room." we'll talk abo that and must have more. i'm pleased to have general zinni back at ts table. weome. >> thank youcharlie, good to be here. >> rose: let me go first tothe middle et and come back to iraq andfghanistan. >> sure. >> rose: that the most impornt thing we can din that region is bring the israelisnd palestinians tether? >> defitely. i know many would argue tha irans more serious o afanistan, butsychologically in that part of the world-- and it been this way for decad-- th is the most significant issue. and more an anythin else, it could ad to rolution to other issues and reall cate relationships in the region would benefit stability and reconstruction in some aas. rose: how could do ithat if in fact, there was some kind of

agement in the creatn of a palestiniastate? >> i think in many cases y take away the cae of many the of t extremists and wha they ba driving the civil discontent and the... driving the streets to become upset because of the plight ofhe palestinians. that would just so of rip t the foundation for many of these extremist movents. i thk also a relationship then that would be followed up by diplatic relations between arabs and iaelis and others would create a different atmospre out there, an atmosphe of cooperatn not just in terms of security but economicnd other are that would benefit the region. and i think that it's been something that i've seen certainly from thearab side and thesraeli side and manyor places at if you could p that behind y, you can mo on in many constructe ways to do other thing and i think political cooperation, security cooperation,conomic cooperation could all follow from that. >> rose: wt's necessary for the united states to do? >> well, we are probably the

only one that can broker any kind of deal. we oiously are the most trusted the israelis. we he influence in the arab world. i ink the arab wld, muslim world, feel weave to be the brokers in this. i know tt from my own experience out there. and werobably cou brin internationacooperation and support. i think that whatever resolution is made, y're going to have to see someinvestment out there, some incentes in other kinds of motationalresources provided the... on both sides for themo make the compromes they nd to makend settle systemf the differenc they ha. and provide t incentives and the ticement to move toward resolution. we'll play a big role in that and we' play a big role in bringing other the europeans and maybe the more wealthy arab states into some sort of cooperative waof providing those resources. >> re: what should we do and what should the opposition on settments and what should we do to more tn encoura the

israelis n to enhance settlemes? >> obviously u can't resolve one ofhe majorssues-- which borders without rolving thesettlements issue and going back to ime minister barack and pri minister oert they had put solutions on the table at basically had the 1967 borders with some adstments with some of the jor settlents, some land tradeoffs and that sort of things. but that's a going torequire reshaping set settlements and maybe rhaping some, maybe allowi some to exist and expand within their o boundariesnd compensation land and that sort of thing. but i think the ntinual expansion of settlemen has always become an impediment to movi forward because on the palestinn side and in the arab world, while you're negotiating, you're seeing the nd being sort of een away and occupied and setettled then and the argument that these settlemts we only interna growth isn't pren on the ground.

you see thes extensis, these little trailers up on the next rie line and obviously that s to in good faith and to move forward that's going to have to stop. >> rose: erybody assume this is, that the shape of a funl agreement is alrdy there. >> i believe that. we've had the greatest minds in the world prably for five decades working on this. >> rose: what aut jerusalem? >> jerusalem i thinkill have to be someort of accommotion between st jerusalem andest rusalem. some st of international open city for t rigious partsand the people could serve their religious ceremonies and things that they do inhe sites there, including christis, not just jews and muslims but there's obviously a large christian commity there that has what they conside pieces of jerusalem that they revere and are importt to them. and it will have to be worked in a way where i think, you know, that there's assurances that will mov forward, thawill be... there will be security.

i'm big believer you've got work all these iues at the same tim you can't this sequentially. you're going to hav to rk security. the ecomic issues, the border issues, thland isss,he political issues. and think what we've done. themistake we've made the the past iwe sort of settle for suits and agreementsin principle. they don't go anywhere. i me, one of my missions was secretary poll told me "i don't need anothe zinni plan." heays "put one of these plans into play." and i had to take e tet plan and build a rk plan, an actual how we're going to do it. d that becomes muc tougher than the sort of aeements in principle at we can paper the wallwith. >>ose: so wt's always the hangup? >> the hangup.... >> rose: trust? >> i think it's political risk. if y lookt those at took risks for peace, sadat, rabi, kinghussein, th suffered for it. >> rose: they all were killed. >> they were kille, king ssein was almostilled. and their own peoe sort of

turnedn them. >> a lot of attempts but he died ofatural causes. >> a lot of aempts, yes. and sot's beenery difficult to see if you tak a risk your legacy will be rewarded for it. that people are ing to appreciate on either side. iny my timehere i w with both sharon an arafat that every time they wod attempt to do somethi or take a risk if someing... you know, if shar removed checkint and then that was terrorist attack, you know, you pay an interl political price for th. sot's going to tak a lot of courage by leaders on both sides to make compromises toake agreemen and then hold fastto them. >> rose: how do you factor in hamas? >> well, i mean, i think hamas clearly... the palestinians ve toing if your out how to bring hamas into t fold. i'm in complete agreement with thconditions. th always have to recognize thesraelis. you can't sit at the table and not regnize the person sitti across from you who has the capacity to resolvewhat y're negotiing.

i think theyave to disavow use of violee and commito a sn fein pcess. >> rose: should they dthat before they lk. that's o of those big issues where you say "that's what we ought to talk about." or do you say "unless you agree to all these thing, we're not going to talk to you." that's the iranian issue, too. >> dlomatically you can g into prnegotiations to settle the conditions. there's all rts ofways to get to tt. >> rose: back channels. >> as a matter of ct, that's a good point. i reallybelieve thereought to be three channelsn these. therought to be a bk channel, a private channela public channel a at would be called a track twor unofficial chnel where ideas could be floated. but there's no political risk because they can be do by retired diplomats, milita people academics. but you n pn ideas a float them andhere's no sort of political commitment or political risk. what would theeaction be if we did this, if we made this compromisen settlements. orefugees. >> rose: how about thetuff that's on the ground, the

checkpointsnd the israeli fear always of some kind of suicide attack? hodo you deal with that sor of on the ground? >> i mean, to their credit, ey've taken ris before. when ias there, they removed some checkpoints. they paid a price forit. but even now they've turd ove some of the ties like jeannine and nabs to palestinian security. they've removed checkints, more than some, conderable numbers so they are taking a risk in testing the wers and my lates talking to the ople i know otheisraeli side, they thinthere is some posive movement on the wt bank to maintain surity and build the appropriate security forcein e right guartees that it's going slowl but so far you know, ock on wood, the pgress has been there. >> re: what's your assesent of neou? >> well, think it' going to be difcult for him. obviously he's form this woul... >> rose: theoreign minier is very rht. >> yes,ery right.

and obviously alition has had to have parties that a far to the right inrder to get t majoty necessary. sot's going to be vy diicult because of the political makeup of that alition government on some of these sues. it's goi to be very hardnd more difficult. it maktake a differe kind of gornment. but i ink if there's the's movement... i mean, e other thing we haven't mentioned here is syria. and there are those th feel that that issueay be riper an the issue with the lestinians and it could be resolved sooner. and that might provide talyst for more posite direction. >> rose: what is yr reading of assad? wh does he want? wh does he need? at are his terests. >>bviously it's the golan heights issue and then obviously economic incentives. >> rose: isrlis have v always been prepared to negotiate over there, haven't the >> i think th're ready i thinkhey'll have to bak their links with the iranians, theyrians, and there's going to he to be certain security assurances provideand the quid for tha would be not only the

ocpied territory but also maybe some economic incentives that coulde put on the tab bys or europeans or combinations o even se of the arab nions. >> rose:hat arab government can make theost difference >> well, i mean, obviously t egyptis. >> rose: they ve more men under arms? >> they'rearger, they're obviously significant force in the arab world. saudis ver much key, king abdullah. >> rose: who had an initiative and it came from a surprising quarte you would think the most conservative but it's put itut there. >> ros basically said something ifou go back to '67 we'll recogniz.. every arab country will go backto the ab gornment? >> a i think it's more tha that. that'sort the short hand version. i've heard them talk about '67 with adjustmts so there's been a little bit of easing of the terms. and i thi my experience out there, they desperatelyant th resolved. >> rose:they" meanin everybody? >> by therab world, the muslim world. and i think syria is t other

one. if you look at syria, saudi arabia, egt, those are the's and many smallerrab nations, too, that e veryctive. >> rose: is the presidt on the right track, do you think? first with mitchell, secd the cairo speec >> yes. i doelieve the cairo speech is very useful. but it has toe followed up by action. >> rose: and the actionought to be simply saying we're on the case. they've t mchell there going from o capitalto another. >> y. more than just envoys. i mean, havin been an envoy it's got to be more substan tomorrow that. but senator mitell is establishing offices i jerulem. he'sot people on the ound, there's permane presence increang in size. i think th's important, you have to work economic, political security issues, work thenn detail, do it simuaneously, light thousand firesout there. >> rose: but isn't this one place thatoes need an envoy? even thoh you couldargue envoys occasionallyause me misunderstanding of accountability and the floof power?

>> i would use a fferent term and i don't ink it's an envoy. i thinkt's a permanent representative, alst like an ambassador in position to work this issue. >> rose: aplgs dorro the region? >> ambassador theregion or amssador to the issue but there. i mean, i'd set up business.... >> rose: so if you don't use the term envoy, the importt point is thave somebody living there? >> yes. and full time. an envo sort ofhas a nnotation of tempora nature, back and for. and i know from personal experience the eoy comes home, people read too much into it and the envoy bemes the issue the center ofttention and you want to medtion. the her thing i would say, i'm not a big fan of the mediator tting the plan on t table. i mean, i've done eht-piece mediation and th parties have to come upith it. th've copped out and said, you know, the s. will put the next plan, the road map, e path to pee or whatever. and we sort of get coned into doing thisnd i'v heard both sides,arab israelis and others anday only you can do it, put it on the table.

i'meally convinced that for it to be a comprehensive, suainable plan, they have to put...hey have to work itut and put it on the table. we should not i the busins of putting plans on e table we should, inste, this is the business of helpinghemdom that soluon. >> rose: one small note of history. what csed the failure of camp david? >> well, you know, i think...y own person opinion, don't think arafatas readyo make that deal, if he er was. in my talking t arafa when i was out there onen one, my sense was thate had a legacy. the legac of a rey electrocution their tha never gave in. and i think in hisind he saw thats somebody else's who followed on to makehe compromise in the al. he w very aware of what happened to sadat and rabin and even hussein and actually said that tme. and i think.... >>ose: he said, look, if i do this somebodwill get me. >>his exact wds to me "you won't follow my funeral le you

did with them." meaning he's assassinad for having made the mpromise. i think he saw hisrole-- i don'want to read too much into is, but i thi he saw his role as i was t revolutionary, i made the case, i got u in a position wheree can create a resolution but is gng to be for the next guy to work the details and mae make the compromises. he said to me one time, he looked at and he sai "i am a general like you, i am the only undefeatedrab general." th told me a lot, that expression >> rose: tt he had enormous pride and that heid not wa to be... >> he did t want to be seen as.... >> rose: nd a c and comomising and then losi what he had gained as a revoluonary. >> re: from everything you knowand knowing that you've been o of power for a ile, will l the israeli strik against iran if ere is no success in getting russia to lean on iran and all the ssibilities seem to be evaporating? >> i think clearly the israelis see iran as an estential

that. i thinkclearly they think that a the is a r line that when u hit that red line, whether it's eugh fsable materialor whatever it is, it's probably something shorter, weaponition that tre has to be action taken inothing else is happening. i do n believe the israelis would strike without... i wouldn't say our conrrence, necessarily, but our acowledgment that they're going to do it would pose our tros in the region, expose o interests in the regio if they wereo do it unilateral, in a pre-emptory fashionhat didn't advise us and, of course, if they advise us we would haveto take precautions that would be very evident. we'd have to to air-tmissile defens protect ships and evything else. i think problem with the strike is sinking through the consequences of irann reaction. one mind that hits a tanker and you can imagine what will hpen tohe price ofoil and economies ound the world. one missile into a gulf oil field or a natural gas

processing field, yocan agine what's going to happen. a missile atta on some of our troop formations in the gulf or our bases in iraq activang sleeper cells, flushin out fast patrol boats and dowels that have mines tha can go io the water inhe red sea and elsewhere. you can see all these actions th are problematic in so many ways: econic impact, national security impac, it will drag us into a conflict. i ink anybody that bieves that it would be a clean stre and it would bover and there wod be no reaction is foolish. >> rose: so what do y think the israeli believe? >> i think they're agozing ert. think they really believe there has to be a redline and there has to be action takenf that red line is crossed. and i think they realize that a reaction will cause all these kinds of oer probls. i think much like us, they're thinking about what do we do when whit that red line? how do we... we can't make assumptis about reactio weave to protect our forces,

our econom interests and oer things in e region that are vital o-to--to-our well-beg andsurvival and tse things could be very expensive a launch us into a third conflict, if you will, of mor proportions. it will make iraq and afghanistan look relatively smalin comparison in tms of troop quirements and everything else. >>. >> rose: can we stop thefrom doing fit they belie the red line is croed? >> i think that we ha opportunitienow internally in iran. now i think we shou be more encouraging of t rereformers >> rose: do you believe that coalitn of forces on sanctions can be imposed that will hurt the iranian leadershi this leadship so muchso that it will chang i attitu about a nuclr weapon and en its behavior towardsts own? >> i don't think it's sanctions alone. i think it's part of a mix of things. i think it's consttly drawing atteion to what there doing inrnally to their people of hue ma rights being denied, of

this gat persian siety not fulfillingts place rightfully in the community of nations in a responsible way. these are th themes i ink that couldeally impact internallynto iran and have an effect. >> rose: i'm trying to understa because i want to understand this part. is it... which of those have do and how do you do them? mean, that... th peopl who were for the seets know t united stas supports them, prefers th, wants to see them successful. and i think they probably ao unrstand the united states has to deal with theovernment in so point. >> yes >> rose: otherwise, who's going to stop... >> i thi they would like t see us much more vocal about this and much more ae and ergizing the international community and eaking about these things. >> so we should internationally lead the case for th reformers. >> absoluty. and i thi you're seeing, t, a split in the regim i mean rafsanjani and.... >> re: it's clear. >> you'r even beginning to see

a spliin theegime. and i think it's tim to push this issue. you knowthere are experts, the hardline in there, aut releasing prsure, aittle academicreedom, freedom of the press, mayb lting some reform candidatesun and sort of taki the essure off and then coming back laternd slly pulling the things back awa and you'll see tm try to reat this process in my mind, to try to ease thisown. an... >> rose: youl see them tryto ack down more or ar you going to seehat? >> i think you're going to see them seemingly give into some things. they've...his is classically what they've done. and it sort ofeleaseshe pressure, eas it dow the refoers bin to believe th're making some progre and then later onhey come back and pull much of this back in. >> rose: so therefore... >> s therefore i think 's time now to keep t pssure on. i would ctainly not be an advocas of inciting revolution and i don'think the refoers want another violent revolution. >> rose: so what thewant is for the united stes to le an

international... >> yes. they wt the world to be outraged and to look at what's going on in there, be sympathetic and supportive of what they're doing and to keep that kind of pressure on th regi. >> rose: soou don't think e president did enough? >> i would he liked tohave seen more. i think we sort of got ourselves trapped in makg the gesture to iran that we wanted topen up a dialue. i uld not he had the president le on this. ihink, you know, t opening y have come at a lower level. he kind of led on is in a personalay and ahmadinejad sort of rejected this and i think itas a bit embarssing and wead made that js which you are d sort of got trapped into a situation where we're a letit luctant to ph on this since we might have t deal with ahmadinejad and think that got us in this position. i wod have much rher seen us made the gestu at a low level. and to feel i out to se if anything was tre. up? where do you think the cnese and e russians would be if we took this tack?

well, again, i think if the chinese and the ruians felt that there was potenti for a polar movement inside in, they wouldn't wa to lose their relationship wh an iran that mighbe changing and be seen, if this regimeere to collapse, as supportive of a regime that was pressive and en rected bythe people. so i think if this tng gs legs you might see them less willing to support t hard lin regime. >> re: if we missed the opportunity athe beginning it's notoo late and now might be the appropria time, asou said rathe than leing up on the pressure, increase the pressure? >> i believe that, yeah. i think that' what we should do. and i thinkt's the rig thing to do. we're aocates of human right and good governance d the nds of... and thiss an important society outhere, it's notust sort of some sort of rogue state. you have aairly well educated society that'salways been ominent the in the region. >> rose: young. >> young. tuned into t world.

>>ose: and they sa pro-american in whatever sense that is. >> yi. >> rose: they obviously want to be independent and if they ve nuclear chnology and all those kinds of thing that's tionalism issue not a.. >> exactly. >> rose: not a geopolitica ise for them. >> exactly. we should never underestimate persian pride. and that's a strong facr, even ongst those tt wt to see this rime removed and see a more responsive, credible secur regime in place. >> rose: the presint ought to be out front o the sectary of stator the national security advisor and. >> all of theabove. >> rose: and then they ought to be ringing up their colleues in foreign capitals and saying "thiis trageous and we all benefit from a free iran". >> rose: >> absolutely. how can look at someone that obvisly stole this electn in a very openly egregious way and th say we're going to deal with this rime? i mean, i tnk you're going to lose credibility on the streets of tehran and elsewherin iran. rose: do you believe thawe

can as the president has said and others have said we cannot alw iran to have a nuclear cability? >> i bieve tha we... tha that woulde a problem fo them to have the bomb. and it would requi... if they wereo get the bombnd we could. we did not strike we would have to alter our whole syem of containment and action in the middle eas which would be counterpductive. i think... you know, i agree wi senator mccain and all the that have said that that is a red line. now, what you do about it xwks prlematic. there arno good answers. i me, if you decide on a strikeall the thingswe talke out here, it could be the outcome and hoyou handle that. so the idea is not t get to th point. you haveot to start trying to prent that now. anddiplomacy and pressurend sanctions and encouragementof those industry i the stets thatent t and very courageously are the kds a that can be do now. >> rose:mart power.

>> smart power. >> rose:hat was pt one of our convertion with general zinn part two tomrow night. see you then captioning sponsed by rose communitions captioned media access group at wgbh access.wh.org