>> rose: welcome to the broadcast. tonight an date on the homecoming of the o american jourlists detained in north korea. we talk t martha raddatz of abc news and ens revere of the career society. >> theyweren't getting anywhere with the eagement and north korea wadoing the same old thing and so wasthe united states and now they hope they ha someort of change, move the north koreans perhaps back to the six party talks, make some progreswith the nuclear ise, although they will say again and again this had nhing to do with it. but ey want some sort of trust me sort of change in the relationship. the north koreans have nally gotten the msage that were trying to cmunicate to them l these many months that th is not the right pathfor them to be on and i'm personally convinced that all or part of that message was one of the messages that i belie

president clton and his team transmitted to pyongyang. that thepath that they ar on is not theight path. there is anoth way to this relationship and iope the north reans were listening carefully to tha message. >> rose: and then joe scarborough, co-host of m nbc's "morng joe" autho of the new ok on what the g.o.p.eeds to do to regain ominence. >> so pple electthe agent o chge, barack obama,, in 2008. what they've seen in 2009 has been a traditional liberal democratic approach and s i thinkhere's some anger out there listen, it's not overwhelming, ctainly not lik it was th bill clintonin 1994 but cerinedly warning sns are ere for the obama administration. >> ros finally, author colson whitehead. his new novel is "sag haor." they're teenagers and there's a small spanof time with they get wiser but i'm t sure it's a coming of ag novel. it draw miss my personal experienceyou could call it little more autobiographical.

but for i'll call it a novel and leave it at that. >> rose: the fed american journalist, politi with "morni joe" and colson whiteheanext. captioning sponsored by rose communicatis fr our studios in new york city, this is chare rose. >> rose: the two amerin journalists who spent almo ve month cember thained in north korea arback at home night. laa ling and eu lee were

welced this morning by friends and family at the bobhope aiort in burbank californi formerresident bill clinton who had flown to north korea to cure their relea shared a warm embrace with its former vice president, al gore,who co-founded the television chnel that the two women worked for. laura ling addreed the group this morning. >> 30 hos ago euna lee a i we prisoners in noh korea. we fear that at any moment we could be nt to a hard labor camp and then sudnly we were told that we were going to a meeting. we we taken a location and when we walked in through the doors, we sa standingefore u president bill clinton. (applause)

>> rose: shortly after, present obama spoke outside the white house. >> the reunion that wve all en onelevision i think is a source of happinessot only for the milies but for the entire country. want to thank president bill clinton. i had a chan to talk to him for the eraordinary humanitarian effor tt resulted in e releasof the two urnalists. i want to thank vi president al gore who worked tirelessly order to achiev a positive outcome. >> re: joining me now is ens revere, president ofhe new york-based career society. was among the former u.s. officials involved in the back channel talks that paved the way for the journasts' release. joining me from whington, martha rdatz, senior feign affairs corrpondent at abc ne. i am pleased to haveoth of them. let me first go to martha.

the white house, what are they sang so far, mar that ar >> well, the ite house is still ying to distance itself with any official kin of trip. they're stilsaying it was a ivate visit, thes after humanitarian mison. but a senior official fm the white houseutlined things that there's clearly heavy white house involvementere, heavy state department involvement here no matter what they call it a lot of this was orchestrated with the help ofhe white house. >> rose: inwhat way did they help? >> wel, they certainly talked toresident clinton. they certainly reached out to esident clinton. the national secury advisor, jim jones,i concted presiden clinton aft al gore contacted t white house and said that e families and that laura ling and euna lee wante president clinn to come over there becae that's what the north koreans wanted. so the northoreans were really making tse demands, as far as i see it they weemanding that bill clinton co over there and

he did thewomen would be released. they were also demding an apology i try to sit back from thi, charlie, and think "whatdid i miss over thlast month? whatid i miss er the cple months that was coming out of the state departme?" ani think about two wee ago in india i sat down th hillary clinton. at's when she was talkin about the rth koreans as unruly cldren and saying thgs like that. she also issued an apology to the rth koreans. she may not callit an apology, but sh basically said "we're ry sorry this happened." so i thinkhere were aot of demands coming from thnorth korean i mean, this is a very serious thing re holding these two journalists. everybody is veryhappy they were released. but there was a lot of back channel ing on and i know evan knows lot more about that than i do >> rose: i'm going to get to that. but what i the take on what we gaed from clint's conversaon with kim jong il? well, they met for about an hour and a half d they had that v.p. state dinner.

so they certainly didn't talk about just the rease of tse journalist i mean, that wasretty much a done dl before he nt over there. they wouldn't have gone over there if h didn't believe he was coming bac with tho journalis. ithink president clinton probably h a lot of personal opinions, he probably talked about denuclearization andhat he feels abo that. herobably talked about what the nort koreans areoing. i me, i am guessing here, but i can't imagine for 90 minutes they tked about the release. agai the white house is stressing this was a private mission, private conversatn. but bill clinton w told not to do any negotiating abo the clear issue. i don't think he probably did that. but it prably came up in some way. >> rose:ll right. clearly they d't want to ha him negotiating. >> no. >> rose: whe did this start? tell me everythinyou know. >> the... from t moment the two young ladies were taken into custody. they're almost... there almost

certainly was conversations... re conversationsoing on insidehe administration, as there were outside the administtion about how do we fithis, how do we resolve this. my o involvement i it was basically watchi this unfd an remembering other instances where americans hadeen taken to custody in north korea. some on my watch when i was in the ate department, some on the watches of others. and so all of this was flashing through my mindnd i was convinced from day one-- and i've n heard from colleagues inside the administration-- at they wer looking at this with an e towards figuringut how to fix it. so from d one is thesimple swer. >> re: fix iteans get the two youn women home? >>et the two yng women out of there an maximizing the effort t do that. and making sure a theame time that this issue remained disconnected frothe nuclear issue d the other broader pol zi issues and differences. >> ros first and foremost humanitarian isss. >> exactly. >> rose: okay.

so do u believe that they were held because the high command in the rean government from the top down want to u them as a pawn? >> i think they were taken into cuody because they were very close to t border d in an area where t northoreans thought they oug not to be. so initially th seemed to have not... ty seemed to he transgreed in some way or were close to transgressingnd the north koreans had an opportunity too that. once the north koreans d them in custody, however, and sent them, as the often do with cases like this, to pngyang for interrogation, they then alized what they had and who they had because these re two jonalists who'd done lot of reporting in asia on some very delicate issues. so i don't tnk from theutset the north korean had any inntion to go aoss a border and grab someone. they were presented th an oprtunity.... >> re: and therefore... >> and once the pcess was set in motion fm the north korean

perspective, i probably had to proceed through its conclusi. investation, accusation, investigatn, trial, sentencing etc., etc. this was on its own track inside north korea. at the same time, i believwhen the nort koreans realized who they were and in theidst of the current dipmatic impasse with the uted states, they probably didee this as an opportity for engagement with the unit states. there's an ope question as to whether ere was an opptunity for horse trang, if you will "we'llive you the journalists if you do somethg for us in the nucar issue." i don't think that evercame up, quitfrankly. but that was always the concern, certainly. i n't think the north kores actually didhat. but when the north koreans realizedho they had, they realized there w an opportunitto parlay th into something more. >> rose: what did they want? >> face. the opportunitto engage the uned states. the opportunity t have the united stes sayto them that we will ta toou and engage with you even though, quite

frankly, forhe last several months it's be the north koreans who'veeen aiding most dialogue with the unite states. but i think in their heart of art it is north koreans saw this as an opportunity to get the united states somew to the table and us this perhaps a an ice breaker. >> rose: becausehey are anxious to get a relationship, biteral relationship with the united states? >> i tnk that's still the boom line for them. >> rose: towards what end? >> if u believe what theorth koreans have bn saying lo these veral months, certainly sincehe outsetf the obama administration, ey want recognitn as a nuclear weapons state. they want the uned states to treat them asan equal. not only in the normal diplomat sense of the word buin terms of their nuclear weapons status. they want the unitestates to engage witthem bilaterally to resolve the variousissues that are on theable between them. theyant all of that and more, but i think those are the core.. >> rose: are thea nuclear state? >> theyave nuclear weapo,

they've demonstrated t nuclear capability but the unitestates is not going to recognize them as nucleareapons state as we would russia or china. >> rose: and a they sling whatever tecology, whatever... >> the's no understoodcation that they are selling nuclear material. there's no indicaon that they are prolifeting nuclear material or weapons. but, as we have seen in e case of syria, the nth koreans were certainly invoed in the construction of a nuclear facilityhere. >> rose: which was destroyedy the israelis. >> exactl that's an important fo of proliferation and it is a legitimate concern othe united states and the international community to stop that sortf ing. >> rose: so, martha, was does e obama administration belie this will go? now that they've all spoken to the significance of t humanitarian mission and separating it from negotiation but having a formerpresident be there and meet these pple, what do they hope might come out of it? >> well, fir of all, i think over the last few months what theyere trying to do, even before today even before bill

clinton went out there,s really change thedynamic. if youook back over theast w months-- andthis start rit after the young women were ken-- you had a nuclear test yohad a lg range missile test, and the rhetoric comi fr the obama ainistration was almost extly the same as had been comingrom the bh administrati when the north koreans were launchi missiles and hang nuclear tests. exactlthe same rhetoric. exactly the same reaction from the north koreas. they would jt ratch up the etoric. they wou keepaunching roets. but then the was thisubtle ange. and ihink it came arod july 4. and that was when e north kores launched short range, medium range rockets, ybarely ard a word fromhe administration. and i started talking to people en because noticed that. thought something differt here. and the said "we rlly need to just cnge the dynic. we don't know how to do it, but that'shat we're trng to do." so i thinkecause of what

happened with bill clinton they st want to build on that. they want tochange that dynamic. they wanto mak progres engagent. they wen't getting anywhe with engagement and noh korea was doing the same old thing and so was the united states. annow they hope they have som sort of change, move the nth koreans peaps back to the six party tas, make some progress with the nuclearissue, although th will say again and again this had notng to do with it. buthey want some sort of trust some sort of chae in the relationship. >> can i offer a slightly different take on th origins of this? because, quit frankly, after the ection last ye, after the u.s. psidential election last year thugh the inauguration and connuing through t inauguration, t rhetoric from the sooto be obama admistration and the obama admistration once inauguraon took place w positive towards all of our erstwhile adversaries. the message that we being

transmitted directlynd indirectly toward the north koreans re very positive meages about a williness to engage, aillingness to resolve fundamental issuesith them and a willingne not only to pick up where the previous administration had ft off but to mov beyond that fo reasons that are still unclear, t we can specula, the north koreans decided that that wa notood enough. and so almo literly from the moment the president's handas lifted up fromhe bible, the north reans were alrea acking in a very uncomfortable and a very confrontatial direction. and many of us on the outside of the administration s this happeng, reached outto the north koreans and asked em to reain from thisort of rhetic and fro these sort of actions. well before the missile tests, well bore there was any hint of a nuclear test things were already heading in bad direction. so we de a major effort. "w meaning all of us on the outside whare concerned about this relationship, to try to get the north koreans move back to abetter place and to await

the rmation of the w administrati's north korea pocy. and when th was in place, the assured our north korean countearts that we could get movi on a posive tra. for lots of reasons, the rth reans opted not to dohat. opted r a more confrontatiol and hoile approach. d i think that over the course of the last several month,he north koreans themsves have seen at this approac has result in their fuher isolion, the iosition of almost unprecedented u. and other sancons. rose: the idea tt ships might be searched. >> exactly ani think the north koreans have finally gotten to communicate to them lohese many months at this is not the right path for them t be on. and m personally coinced th all or part of thatmessage was one of the messages thai believe president clinton d his team transted in pyongyang. that t path they are on is not the right th. ere is anotheray to this retionship. and i pe the north keans were listening carefullto that messe. >> obviously whebarack obama

took office the rhetoric was very different and he wanted engagement. buwhen the north koreans didn't do what he wanted them to do, they publicly... the rhetor was very simil to what george bush was doing at the ti. and that, i think, just compnded the problem and the noh koreans realized they weren'getting anywhere, the obama ministration realize they wen't getting anyere, and that's whe you started seeing plicly as well that change. and mrs. clinton saying "we're not ing to pay any attention to them. although a couplweeks later ere's bill clinton over ther >> rose: tre much tal at the white house out how thismay indite a new role f bill clinton? >> i ink that there's not a lot of talk about that. i think present obama said today that he wants to talk to bi clinton at some point and see what happenedver there and what they talked about. but it certainly does pubill inton backn the spotlight. it was a rl taleof two clintons today and ovethe past

couple weeks. >> rose: thank youmartha, great to see you. >> you, two. >> rose: thank you,evans. we'll be rightack. stay with us. >> rose: j scarborgh is he. he is the host of "morning joe" the m nbcprogram that attracting a gwing following. "newsweek" magazincompared the brdcast to something like a serious mindedvening show still wearing its bathrobe and slippers. >> (laughs) >> don: you like at. here's aook at "morng joe." >> david gergen who's been around aew presidents, republic and democrat alike, hahad positive this to say about presidt obama. but he faults himn the way he's run the administrion thus far. in wt ways? >> he said a really interesting thing. heaid he basically thinks obama needs to appoint a really good manager for t stimulus ckage. that that money ha't gotten spenfast enough. >> isn't joe bidenoing that? well, he thinks that under f.d.r., f.d.r. had managers wh were me specifically inharge

of t stimulus who didn't have her responsibilities and who got more done more quickly. >> do you reali there are conservatives/libertarns that read yr magazine? >> we are indeed. we're veryopular in the military actually. >> are you? >> get a l of soldiers ading us and hear back from a lot o them. >> okay. i'm just saying once in while... well, actually, you had p.j. ee o'roue in the '80 was a conservati guy, had great ticles. >> i tnk conservatives li to read us to sagree with us. >> just likehe "new york time" i buy two copies, one to read and one burn my n my backyard ter i finish reading it. >> rose: well,hat was from this morning itself, w it not? >> yes, this morning, fresh off the presses. >> rose: before he bro into tevision joe scarborough was a republican congrsman from florida fr 1994 2001. he recently mapp out a coback strategy, not for himself but forhe g.o.p. the book is called "the last best he: restoring conservatism and america's prise." i am pleased to he him back at

th table. welcome. >> sorry you didn't bring me again. i enjoy hearing the stories abt the ball girl last tim here. i ke her erywhere i go. she ses books. >> rose: the best ball girl we've er had. she was good. and, boy, does she add to your show. >> oh, many i god. yeah. ople always ask why ka went on the bookstore with me. she doubles the sales. and tripleshe size of e audience. i'm not dumb! it's le i've got any own palin nobody's there to seehe old guy. they're there to s mika. >> rose: a the chemistry between the two of u. >> yeah. >> re: good for you. let meust talk about you first. first thnews. iwatched your show this morng as iften watch your show. the clinton story. questions? what'd you think? why didn't he speak? he wted to report back the whe house first? what? >> yeah, i think so.

and i tnk it was a smart move for him. i'm confoued by some pple on the right actually cticizing this operation. this is very simple. >> rose: it' unbelievable to m o. >> this is very simple quid pro quo. we get two americans back safe and sound. all we have to do is give them bi for a three-hour dinner. >> rose: (laughs) and bill mig have leard something. and i heard john bolton say that's negotiating with terrorts. i mean, ifhe ransom's that cheap, we need to send bl to irannd get those.. >> rose: g those weapons. >> get those stoes. i mean, there's also so many interesting undercurrent here. bill clint, al gore. not the closest of friends sie 2000, but they re brought together this way. hillary clinton,kim jong il. i mean, they've been saying some veryunkind things t each other. they're brout together. rack obama, bill clion. agai, aayshat constan fricti. i know because you live in new

york and bill clinton haa lot of friends in neyork, you' constantlyearing people saying "why don'they use bill more? why don't they..." you hear it erywhere you go. it'sust... all of bil clinton's friends "it's just not right. oba's not using ll inton! he could save the world!" >> rose: (laughs) do >> do you not hear that >> >>f course you do. >> re: this is the home run answer to that. e home run answer. >> and, again, this is what bill clinton is so gd at. >> rose: what' that? >> well, ... he... on the world stage. >> rose: admired and therefore is... >> this is a g who's beloved. >> rose: andpeople like to be arnd him. >> we could use him. i said in the middle of the bush administration, u know, georg bush ought towallow his pri, pick up the phone. whether republics like bill clinn or not, outside of this country is an international superstar. >> rose: and it woulhave been appropriate thing to do because e father and the foer president had formed a pretty good relationship f

chity. >> no doubt about it. also,t's so fascinating, too. bill clinton, an ex-president returng back to north korea where he had sentn ex-preside, jimmyarter, in 1994 and that di't end asell obviously. rose: and he was negotiating something whenime ran out. >> no dbt about it. you know, the bt part, really, though, of this, other than obviouslthese two journalists being safe and sound back wit eir family, which is gat, we should all b greful for that, is the fact that bill clinton got inte that the best inlligence agencies in the globe... >> rose: an american hasn't sa with kim jong il in a long time. >> what ds he look le? we thinkhe's had a stke. what does this mean forthe development of nuclear weans. is the guyven there? >> rose: is the an aument to made tha might have some perssive manner because it was deliverein a way that it was

delivered. >> exactly. they got to sit down, talk. bill clinton gothe measure of the man r three hours. that's pretty vuable. >> rose: and it evidently happed because they insiste clinton be t person. >>ight. no doubt about it. wonder how al gor felt abou that. >> rose: i think he's been there before. don't you? >> and who rlly wants to go to north korea? unless youave to. >> rose:ell, i ink... i mean you coul see h great sense of concn for those two people. for th and their families. >> no doubt abt it. i s joking. rely, it's a win-win. >> rose: you wen't jing when you were in flida trying to keep him from being president. >> no, not at all. >> rose: (laughs >> those were differentimes. i've grown since then, charlie. i've grown >> rose: i there trying to swing an election in florida. >> il tell you wha, tryg to keep our mility people from voting. we couldn't havehat, could we? >> rose: n, we couldn't. did yo succeed? >> evidently. we g the military votes. that was my job. >> rose: is that rht?

>> yeah. >> rose: well, i madet my job how have you gwn since then? hoare you different toy? >> you know, think i know now in 200 at i didn't know in 1995. >>ose: well, i hope so. >> and irocally i'm counseling my leral democratic friends, saying "just relax." you know, i thought 1995 when we conservatives to over congress we owned the world. that we could ps whatever we wanted to pass throu the house, the sene would confirm it, it had go to the white hse be signednd it would be law. what i found out was james madison s a pretty smart guy. we dartedurther right than america was ready to goand you ha moderate republins, democrats in the senate. it sorof chiseled off the edges of tha agenda. thsame thing is haening now. and democrats haveone too far le. they spent t much money. they're moving fasr than e middle of arican pitical thought is ready to go.

d they're learning e same lessons. >> rose: are they doing that because it isheir ideologic place orre they doing tt because they look at this economic crisis and they are pullg all the strings the know >> liste what barack obama is doing is what what ronald reag tried too in 198, what ll inton tried to do in 1993 in theirst year. they've looked at history and you have a honeymoon period. you try to g as much done as quickly as you can get done because you know after t first year it's a long,ard slog. so thas whathe's trying t do but the problemis, what america wants him do is focus , mike barnicle sayshree things jobsjobs, and jobs. and so wn youtalk about health care, when you talkabout tax increes for healthare, when you talk about cap and trade, when you talk about all of thesether things that a lot ofmericans don't e directl afcting them getting a job,

and indiana or ohio or whatever, i think that causes more probms. but alsoarack obama is limited by what happened over the past eight years. george. bush and the republicancochran t debt up about $11 trillion. barack obama's fit budget was very expensive. it doubled the debt. his projections, and americans just aren't ready to go tt far. >> rose: the book "restong conservatism and arica's promise" basically is an indictment of the bush adnistration. >> well, yh. i mean.... rose: they got away from main street conservism. >>it's an indictmen of republicanm. it'sn indictment of people being more interested in keeping the reblican party in power than doing wt they said th we going to do whenhey got to washington. i mean, got elected in994 by saying "we're going to show restrain wee going to show rtraint in spending. we're going to try to balae

the budget. >> rose: contract th america. >> rht. we were gointo show restraint in forei policy. we weren't going to eage in military adventurism, we were going to try to rei in the growth of entitment proams. we d that. we passed lfare reform. wealanced the budget. we did try to restrain what military adventurism. if you look at the bush administration, on all thr of thos counts, i think $155 billion sulus, they turn it into a $1.5 trilliondeficit. they taken a entiement system-- medare, especially, that's going bankrupt-- they d a $7 trillion liability tot. and think mt damagingto this country at home and abroad, they te colin powell's republican view of how 're suosed to conduct ourselves on an international stage. theowell doctrin the weberger doctrine,we've talked about this bere. we show reraint abroad. we don't goo battle unless

it's the last possible option. t when we go.... rose: and then go in wi ll force and make sure the american public is behind you before we dot. >> as colin powell sd, wn we go to war,e don't want a ir fit. tony zinni has book out. tony zinni actually wrote a mem saying "don't go intoraq unless you're going to have 350,000 troops. if you don't go in with fl foe,e're going to have a mess on our hands." he predicted it. >> rose: right. >> and a lot of the smart genels that have been inraq before predied it. for some run donald rumsfeld didn't want to listen t generals that wothe first ir war d we decided we' going to win the war on the cheap. charlie, there's nhing coervative about that. there's nothing conrvative about spding this count in debt. there's nothing conservative about putting us $7 trlion in debt that's n conservati. >> rose:s tony zinni and col powell me the kind of republican that yo identify with tn, say, newt ginich? >> well, um....

>> rose: (laughs) >> let m put it ts way. >> rose: dot spin it... >> no,'m just going to put this way. newt gingrh can win statewide electis in georgia. colin powell can win statewide elections in connectit. we don't have con powells or tony zinnis in our party anymore. we've t a few, olympia owe. >> rose: she was so good this mornin >> so good. but r everyone that wants to kick colin powell out the party, isay do youeally.... >> re: that's rush limbaugh. >> well, it's a lot people. i went o on my booker to and i was tryingo explain to people, if you want to be a national party again,you've got to win a at or two in new england. and let me tell y something, people who lk like mend talk like me fr the south, we're probablyot going to do well in northeast harbor maine. colin powell will. olyma snowe will. >> rose: well, in the northeast... >> i just tew that out.

the i own the northeast with mika with me okay, mika,f you say , i'll te for you. but they kied colin powell out the par. you know what i learned o this book showein it's fascinating. speaking in w england. i d a lot ofpeople comeup to me, a lot of older gentlemen especially come up to me and say "i used vote for republicans when they were like you." i said "i'm really conservative, i'm like a libtarian i'm so conservave." they said "n, you're not a hater." and what i realized on this book tour, two things, one good, one bad. the od thing is that merates even people leftof center, will low pressure to you ifou don't come to te them barack obama's communist a sonia sotomayor is a racis they will listen t youhen you can have a debate onphilosophy. >> rose: who said that sotomayor was a cist. >> i forget now. i've played a lotf football, charlie. a lot of republicans said she was a racist. rose: so your friends... >> sly on the other side...

you call tm myriends. sadlon the other side, hard core republicans. let just tell you, i'll s itight here. they're noas conservative me. ceainly not on spending. certainly not on military adventurm. a lot of the people wouldn't listen tome because i didn't ll obama a communist. because i didn't call sotomayor a racist. i mean, styl has a lot to d.. i an, there's some peopl the hard right and t hard left expect to see anger a expect you to play hard ball an ifou don't you're not a real conservativer a real progressive. >> rose: on the queion that rolling stones was talking about adershipbarack obama six months. how do you assess the ldership fit? >> it is. you know, it's a spli decision for me. foreign policy, iouldn't expect more. rose: this is the same thi jimmy baker said.

>> did h on feign policye is the first reast we'v had in the white house, at least judging by his tions over the first x months sce bush 41 he takes all the information in, doesn't dart wildly right or left. re, his rhetoric is ait more progressiv but that' hishetoric. in ality he is, he' the first realist, at least over the first six months. domestically don'think he's show leadership at all and i say that because i'm very disappointed. >> rose: because he's given too much power to congres >> exactly. he turned thtimulus package over tnancy pelosi, the most important package, the biggest bill in theistory of this countr remember he se up david axelrod and lrysummers. they went up to the hill, the saidthis is our outline which was an outline that a lot of republicansaid "we can liv

wi that." and coress told him no. nancy pesi, no. we'rnot going to be biptisan we're in power now. and larr summerscame out a id "messe received." they turd it over to ncy pelosi.... rose: part of that also wa threaction, ihink perhaps overreacon, of what clinton had done onealth care. >> you've got be careful, al, speaking of jimmyarter and tip o'neill, one of the reasons y tip o'neill didn't like jmy carteris because he didn believe the new president his fresh face from plains, georgia, was showing t proper respec >> rose: so manyresidents come to washington, especially they'vebeen governors they want tbe perceived as an outsider. and some poin someone helps them uerstand in order toet bis passed, in order to be an effective force, you have ve some other relationship, if not accommodation, to e way waington works. >>xactly. >>ose: you understand that. you do have to accommodate anthe president has deal with congress, no doubt about it. but you start withhe stilus package, and i think another mistake, cap and trade.

nancy losi pullebarack obama into the cap and trade debate. a debatehe shldn't have been pulled into if alth care rely was his number one agenda item. he got puld into that ss. there's been lot of nse leading up to healthare. so by the time he getso health care, he's upsi down on the deficit. he's upside do on the size thfederal government's growth. he's upside down in the po numbers on a t of tse issues. it's making h job a lo more difficult right w. >> rose: do you ink public option ia bad idea in health care reform? >> i think so. rose: youlike the cooperative idea? >> well, sure. i do. the problem is.... >> rose: (laughs) >> for the psident. well, no, if you want to know e truth, there's nhing in the constitution.... >> rose: i do wantto know the truth. >> you want the truth? you can't handlehe truth! we don't have to do everything in 2009. >> rose: thank you,jack. i thought you were a marine lot. >> i'm a constitutionalawyer. i know the constitution forward and backwar and i can ll you as a guy who..

>> rose: i florida. >> iwas in a con law class. i no what ipeak. there's noing in the nstitution that says you hav to get everythgone 2009. >> rose:here you go. but you just said the reaty is you need to do a much as you can becae you have less effectiveness afteards. so you havtwo compeng ideas runng through each other. >> this presiden has burned through a markable amount of political capit over thefirst six months? >>ose: has he really? beuse his populary is still high andmuch popular th his positis. >> yeah. i'm just tking about any big spending bill he's going to have so problems. i think really the best thi he can doight now,f i were advising him-- a of course i'm not-- i wou say aggressivelyo after coumer protections. taking carof e-existing conditions,allowing kids to stay on insurance until there or 26. >> re: and forecloses and all of thatave. >> yeah, allf that. fos on consumer protection. get as much asou can get now

and when the economy turns around in 21, go bk. rose: being a hot media property, as you are. >> oh, yeah. wh. >> rose: come on, can't pick up anything at doesn't talk abt scarborough and "morning joe." how has it changed, if at all, your perception of mea? >>um... i've got to be careful here. there is... what i've found... i've fnd two things. i've found thathe media, most of the pple that are in the medihave a world ew that's left of cter. that one thing i've foundout. >> rose: a world view? that has to do wit u.s. engagement around the wod? >> wel no, no. just their view of the world, theiview of politics. you don'tind a lot of people that are pro-life in national medi you don't nd a lot of people who ha bumper stickersn their car that talk about the second amendment.

and i always.... >> rose: you like to bear arms, don't you? (laughs) >> can youot... do i n look like a hunte to you? i've ner fired a gun. i can say not only have i never fired a g innger, i've never fired a gun. but you know the thing is, though.... >> rose: you've never lookedt the whitof their es, have you? >> no, i haven't. but i explained,hough, to my conservative friends, it's just theature of where th media is. >> rose: okay, but if... >> if three networks and thewo or three major newspapers were in manhatta, kansa, instead of manhattan, new york, well, they'drobably be more acclimated to a redtate world view. that'sot the case. >> rose: and the mo importa thing is to make sureyou derstand a red stateorld view and make sure you ge it plenty of attention as you do everythi else. >> that's right. >> rose: and on that count you believwhat? do you believe that whatever... >> i believe thatwherever the media.... >> rose: wherever the marity

of the media come dow on that questiono you believe that it impacts how on their coverage? >> well, se, buthat i've noticed over the past fiv years.... rose: i mean, you s all these stripecoming in there. d here. >> i do. what i've noticed er the past five years, i've noticed the press has gotten a lot me in tune with what going on in red state america. >> rose: and what's going on in red ate america? >> there's anger out there right w. >> rose: about? the economic conditns of the country? but is it more populist? is it just t sense that you're bailin out the people onall reet and not baing out us? >> go back to '92 and '93. the's so much that remis me of '92/'93. bill clinton won in 1992 because you know,e hit the reset button on the economy. we went from an industrial age when we were transforming into an informati age, it will take three or fou years until we get there. so bill inton dealt with that anger. when he didn't respond the w people wanted him to rpond in

19 and struck him as a traditional liberal, who rose? ro pro. anduddenly you hadhese... what w it, up with arica? up with people. whever pro's groupas lled. millions of people g involved in the political proce in '94. th same thing has happened here. we've hit the reset button. we're not going be an economy that's madly driven by consumerism. people elect the agent o chge, barack obaman 2008. what they've seen in 2009as be a traditional will you be ral docratic approach. and sohink's some anger out there. it's not. listen, it's not overwhelming yet. it's certainly not like it was wi bill clinton in 1994 but certnly the warning signsre there for the obama administration. they need to respond well. >> rose: but how have you chae i mean, explain to me how u see the world but has beg in the center of this media thin, is it different than political atteion?

i meanis it less? is it more? is it more comfortable? >> it's a lot more fun, not having to wa up a 5:00 every morning and seeing wh your locanewspaper is writing about you. >> rose: or spending a lot of time on e phone raising money. >> oh, yea no. this is. but you kw what, though,harlie? the ow, it's like... we talked about this before. you and i, let's not tell our boes, we're the luckiest guys in theorld. rose: exactly. know. >>ecause at this desk andat ourmorning desk we get aot of the top thinker in the country and the worl and it is... who wouldn't be thrilled to do that? >> rose: and is that a more important role forou than, say being what,ike aenator from orida? >> there's no doubt. >> rose: a mor important role for you an being a senator from florida? so you s to the ople of florida "i can best sve you not by runni for elective office but brunning "morning joe"? >> tnk god i don't have to say that the people o florida. all i have to do is ta to my

wife and see how she comes out. >> rose: how does she vote on that? >> she wants me to stay t of politics. >> re: that's the reason you left, mostly. >> well, i had two boys.... >> rose: that's what i mean. a. ly. family. >> ros now you have a larger family. >> i've got 47 kids now. >> rose:laughs) starting with wille >> yeah! exactly, he's our trouble child. starting at 5: every morning i have to wake up and e if hs doing all right. t i had some republicans approa me, ask me if i'd beed running for senate this year and i called a couple of political friends that iespect d everybody had theame conclusion. you have a lot re influen, you ve a lotmore reach and you're having a lot more fun doing whatou do every morning than y would being the 99th or th 100th senator in t minority in seniority. >> rose: "morning joe." how do you make it better? >> we get smarter. >> rose: howo you get smarter? >> well, we dig down deepe

i think our biggest chaenge is not to get in the same routine. >> re: take it for granted reach out. how out this bookrestoring conservatism and america's omised." author joe scarborough. he i.. >> i no tony zinni! m a starbucks guy. rose: tony zinni said one thing that i tolly agree with. it is that he thought the most important thing out leadership was the capacity to continueto grow a to change and to... what you just said about your show. that's the essence of leadership he said. >> you he to wake up ery morning andhallenge yourself. how am i going improve myself toy? and who's the be examplef at in theilitary right now? petraeus. >> rose: exactly. >> general peaeus is aew pe of general. ill say the one thing abt george w.ush that i think history will be kinder about

than we're bein right now how bush recognized the talent of petraeus. and, in fact athis sortf taledoute, went through thi tangled web people in the pentagon, found petraeus, worked arnd the existing power structure,ound this guy, pulled him out and peteus really is. i mean, he's a star. we'll se though. the seco act is going to be tougher than the fst act, that afghanistan. >>ose: we're talng about iraq on this ogram in terms of wheret goes and whether the most important decisions are yet toe made. any way qi"the last be hope" is the book, joecarborough, ank you. thank you, charlie. >> rose: bacin a moment. stay with us. colson whitehead is here. his novels include "the intuionist" andjohn henry days" which is a finalist for

the pulitzer prize "whington post"rote no one wrer writes wereany imagination about e complexity of race in america than colson whitehead. he tes an autobiographic turn with hisnew novel "sag harbor." i'm pleased to have him back at thisable. welcome. >>owdy. >> rose: tell me what genre this fits in. >> i'm not sure. i think ople want to call i a comingf age novel. >> rose: exactly. >> even though i'm not sure if it has all the features of coming of age novel. nothg incrediblyranscendent happens. there's no giant shark in the water they'r trying to avoid. they don't find a deadody in the woods and while the son "snd by me" plays and stuff like that. and so there ar teenagers and there's a small span of time where they get a lite wiser but i'm not sure if it's a coming of age novel. because it draws from some of my rsonal experience you could ll it a little more aubiographical. fome i'll just call it a novel and leavit at that. >> rose: theother thing about a coming of age is that ter the

perience you are somehow more adt, more learned more sothing. wiser. >> rose: right. >> or you had a good time with the young woman in your experience. >> well, in my experience, actually, over the course of a summer or a year we' only .001% wir. we don't have these great trscendent moments. >> rose: a lot morefun because it was more of a homeor you than nhattan. >>eah. i grew up in new york citynd we'd g out to sag harborn the summer. if you don't kno sag harbor i long island. 's part of e hamptons and i the'70s and '80s it was a qint, quiet town now it'ssort of page six. but in the 30s and '40s there were aican american lawyers, doctors, banrs from new jersey and manttan and brooklyn who wanted aplace to go in the summ and they found this neighborhood in t old whaling town of sag hbor where the could go and it said fr by word of mouth so you'd go ou,

next summer bring friend and they would come t and get a house. and itw in the30s and 0s and '50s and my grandfather w onof the early adopters, i guess. my mher went out there. i went out there every suer. having this weird existence where i grewp in the ty and would go out forthree mohs to long isld in the hamptons and have the sort of strange adventures not knowing how special it was. my other books hav been sort of a little more abstract. but there seemed to be so much material there that i wanted to tackle and try somethi different. >> rose: what was thmaterial? >> wl, you ow, i was... i hated being ateenager. i nd, you know, the whole thing excruciing and humiliating, like mo people. ando myirst book was about elevator inspectors, it wasn' abt me. myecond book was about john henry, not about me. but there's something about doing somethinthat you're scared of that seems that mbe it makes sense to do.

so ihink i... y know, 20 years is a good enoughistance from my teenage years. >> rose: is the ar in par not wanting to reveal something about yoself that people might not kn? >> sur i mean revelation also revisitinghat time and ying... you know, where ch of your personalityis forged. but then onceouscape you don't want to back. >> rose: but it was a comfortable time for y was it not? or not? >> n in terms of.... >> re: but in terms of economic status it was a comforble time. >> se. >> rose: middle-cla. >>y parentshad theirown business and we were well off. but likeny teenager, whether you're... where you co from or your circutance, you know, the enage years can be pretty hard. >> ros why is that? what it ishat makes teenage... >> well, thinkyou're becomg aware of how dierent you are from the rest of the world. i think you ast for a wle learning things and then high school com anduberty and you realize, oh, i'm not the person i thought i wasand no o else and how do vigate this new sort of social network, this

new social... new paragm i'm in in high school where i'm an individual and trying to fit in with everybody else and figure t the teenage codes. >> rose:here does benji'sife not parallel your's? >> well, you know, i was a very inarticulate teenager and not really aware of what was going on. th narrator of the book of "sag harbor" s a grown-up lookg back. i couldn't he done a whole book in the voice of a 15-year-old. i would have foun it just too... i think little boring and not as much fun. if you have an adult perspective the adult can lookack upon the teenage years with bemusement, wisdom, and try and shape this chaotic immature mateal into a coherent narrative. >> rose: when you're writg about th '80s... ts was the '80s, yeah? >> '85. >> ros lots ofopultural references. do you have to go back and sort of remind yourself of what the were? >> well, thas the fun part. sometimes do books and it's a lot of library worknd

sometimes i just goo itunes and go through my record collecon. so going bac andiscovering a all this old post punk and new wei and early hip-hop is good and fun and furing out how to e it. pop culture is important to kids. but how do you make not just a empty reference. how doou make it serve the aracter in a larger story. so, you kw, the boysin the book ar 15, 16, and in '85 the music they're listening is a lot ofip-hop. at that point hip-hop was very quaint. th had bands like u.t.f.o. who dressed like the villageeople and hadeird costumes like leathejump suits and th lyrics were very corny. but on the horizon in the late '80s we haveangsta rap coming and the comrcialization of hip-hop d the music is becoming moreature. in the way that... the same way they're on the cusp of adulthd, the music that they listen to is also in is process of becoming. and so the sic and pop culture of their time becomes a way to

talk about whatthey're going through. >> ros does benji feel any sens that he perhaps was indulgent out riding the backs of those who me sacrifices earlier? >> well, through generation, the grandparents' generations, benji's parent generation. and theyave different ideas of what iis to be african american, toe a professional. you know these..theewly emergent blackiddle-class of the 0s and '30s weredoing it for the first time. and when they were ming this community, ey were building it step by step. and then there's the... benji's parentgeneration, civil rights neration who find different ways to negoate bckness in america. and then there'she kids. these teenage who n '85 who grew up taking a lot of this r granted. and how does that play out? you know, the generation is dance ofgenerations. and sohe fun is trng to figureut what itas like to be a enager in the '80s but

also how these kids t in with this lonline of african americans. >> rose: for benji andou, sag harboras home more than anywhere else. >> well, yeah, we moved around a lot when was a kid. sfrup one rental to another. >> yeah, more kids, bigger ace kids go off to college, smaller place. but the one conant was sag haor. and wh you... a lot of ki out the when you go college you stopoing out because it's too buj ji. it's not pa of this hampton scene, you sto going out there for a while. but frankly i started going out again a couple years ago and it's nice to get out of the city ani know all of the strts and i can walk down main strt and superimpos my own '70s and '80sag harbor on e present glitzy sag hbor and it still a real home for me. rose: we're in a polical agand we have an afric erican president for theirst time, enormously popular here and around the world so people are beginning t talk abouthe post-rial world. are we in a post-racial world? >> no. think, you kno that's sort of nice and the's reason to be

timistic for many reans. i know that my dauter w's four is growing u in a new worl i don't really wear ties much but i'm wearing ties becau i'm leaving the house. and.... >> rose:ecause you're leaving the hoe? >> and iut on a tie few months ago d she sa "you look just likehe president." so her idea a man who wears a tie is africa american.. >> rose: so wh does she y abouthe president? >> well, she was aig hilla supporter. >> rose: how old is she? >> she four and a half. >> rose:our and a half, right. >> but her teachers were trying to get her involved and so for monthsuring primaries iwas, like, what about barack? and she is like "i'm dn for hillary." she made the switch.... >>ose: at four and a half? >>eah. e made the switched a mirbly. >> re: after the nomation process? >> yeah. >> re: and where was your wife? >> she was... w tried notto get too involved with matty's political matation.

luckily itorked out ock the end. >> rose: so matty's hpy. >> yeah. >> rose:ou wereappy the president's happy. what is your ambition? >> keep writing different books. mean, this book is a real sort of changof pace for me and fo theirstime i'm not sure wha i'm doing next and that seems ry good. you know, generallyhen i have a book comingut i know what thnext thing is, i'm halfway through. but i'mstill learningow to become a better writer and do things differentlynd i couldn't have written "sag harbor"ten years ago. >> re: because you weren't psychologically rey or because you didn't havethe skills? >> both. i needed distance from childhood and i ao nded the chops to pull off a first person voi, a teenage voice to transcend my own sort of experienc and make it more universal. you know, the book takeslace a particular timeand with a particular set of circumstances. but itoesn't work unless it..

itaps into this univeal teenage experiencand what it is to be a person and figung ouyour way in the world. so he's an afran american teenager in the '80s but hopefully he's all teagers and he's all of us in his horrible travails. >> rose: the book is called "sag harborcolson white head. thank you. >> rose: >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for jning us see you next time. captioning sponsored b rose communitions captioned media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.g

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>> yogis my life. i took my first class 21. i've done it continuously through my adult years, d i expect to be practicg yoga until my dying day. yoga is an opportunity ao for me to are the things that work for me in my life wi others. yoga, for me, is a relionship with myself in relation the world. yoga is a way i start my d. yoga is a way that i connue my day. yoga is a y that i even take it into sleep time. yoga, for me, isy passion. it's my li. anif some of that enthusiasm that i feel for yoga can be