>> crlie: welcome to the broadcast, tonight, the lem endear trumpet and fug will horn player from south africa. >>he if no, ma'am none abo south afri from the kwledge about sit t interestthat grew over 20 years until about 1958 where there was no artist that was recording anywhere in the world. it was just universal. i think th put pressure on all of the administratio of countries all overheorld. to that extent south afric is the phenomen because music was the major calyst in our freedom. >> crlie: also yusuf islam, rmerly known astephe has a new album.

>> in the end, what i found, what i returneto was doingt r the sake of the fact i wanted to do it. it wn't because i was forced because i have contract. you ve to come up withix albums by this de. i w free. then music became, if you like, expression of lo. something within me, as i y you can take the man t of the music but u can't take the my i can out of thean. charlie: we coleteith british writerrances as bn and her great grandmother and british society. >> she was iredibly stysh. she was a muse, she was a great fashion designer of th day. papers right aoss the world wrote up when she pu on othes ey began to look azing. she was incrediblyharp dth. incredib well read and she could chat to anybody. when she walked in to a room the ght appeared a little

brighter. she just had it. charlie: mic and british culture. next. ptioning sponsored by rose communitions from our studios in new rk city, this is charlie ro. >> charlie: hugh masekelas herea ledger dr trumpet and fug i will horn player. he left south afore caneheo escy

of apartheid. here is a lookat hugh masekela live in concert. ♪ ♪

♪ t. >>harlie: he returned to south africa in 1909 now released his 35th studi album it is, i am pleased to have m here at this table for the first time welcome. >> thank you,charlie. >> charlie: great to see you. you t interested in the trumpet because of kirk douglas movie someoneold me? >> when i was six ars old my parents tried toet me on the

gramophone, i s singing all over the place. they got meiano lessons. i got veryn to the piano but so just becameollector of music. at one time i was 1 i sck out of high school when i was grnded to go and see thi movie with my friendalled "young men with a horn" that arred kirk douglas. hear james playethe sound track. hearames had t most beautiful tone. and we were just obsessed when i came back, a few wee ter, e bishopwas a major foe of apartheid was later ex spelled. heas social worker, community worker as well asajor activist. he knew my parents, he sa, wh do you really want to do with your life?

because he traved wh all the monitorsi said,ather, if i can get a trumpet i won't botr anybody any more. he got me a trumpet and trumpet teacher. and six months later i was playing tunes on the trumpet and otr friends wanted to instment, finally foed the band. >> charl: became a friend of louis armrong. >> when he was kickedut of south africa, he came to one of hisissions here in thunited stes, and through one of the fathers s part of the counity of the resurrection orr in rochester was clarinet pyer, the were oxbrge educated people. this man briended louis armstrongas a great friend then fan of all the clarinet players, benny goodman he was crazy about

he said, armstrong is playing uld you like to -- he said, sure, love to see tha show. thenhen he met astrong he ld him about the band of youths, aican yous it started in outafrica. heaid, well, i got to send him e of my horns! of course tha got us splashed all over the newspapers. at a timewhen louis armstrong waon tour in africa, heas banned from south afric because people of african origin who didn't ce from south afri could ntinental come in as endangered servants or grant laborers. when sidney porirtier came in 1951they came to south africa as endanged servantsf the directors. lieu we armstrongoo much influence, butis trumpet came. it made us very famou for most of the year. we appeared in just aboutvery

newspaper. then the music commuty found us and they nurtured us, five of us are still professional musicians today. >> charlie: five om that group. >> yeah.arlie: you stain touch? >> oh, yeah we're veryood friends. we are all alive. i gomeet louis armstrong about six years later when i was in hool i went tohe gramm awards. and he just said, the on thing you have got never to fgets where you came fm. beuse when i tk, i neve finish any sennce wiout lking abounew orleans. >> charlie new orleans,es. when you ce to the united states that was like -- >>960, september of 1960. >> charlie: f '06. >> i came here when kennedy and nixowere campaigning. >> charlie: did you see the bate? >> first oall i had to decipher it fo myself. being that bee never got to vote in southfrica then we dn't

ev know whats about. it just what happened inhe white part of e community. of society and i uldn'telieve all the flags and how ty meet upon televion and how they t each othedown a -- i wasike, damnyou know. no we've seen it happenn ny places. >>harlie: you kn 30 years later you always kw you'd go back? >> i'd hoped to go back aer ur years. >> crlie: four years. >> i came to the schoolof music, mirm mcgiver broht me fm england where hudeston got a scholarship in to t guild hall. miriam made a splash, on and off lovers and she said,ome here, man. she send me to the school of music and got dizzy gilspie to commendmethen.

she asked bellafonte. rtunately i was able to vindicehe belief in me. in 1963, i was ready t go bk, i'd finished four years at manhattan. harry belfonte sa with t ki of mouth you he, and the kind of -- the ki of lik association u have with i and miri who have been banned already two or three times, you just going to disappear, they won' know. why don't you stay he try to make a name for yourself. by then, i had formed m own group, becse i had hop to play like that. then go back and teach. he said,andela have bee sentenced toeath you're going back tre? so i said, h am i going to make it here? how do i know i'm going to make it? he said, liste we've helped you enougho f,you're going . if you makeit, then you'll have

cess to the medialhave visibilik abt your country as much as you wto. and i n get a break. >> charlie: as authentic voic one of yo greatelationships of your life. >> right. was adear friend. >> charlie: you said lover, friend. >> i met miriam whei was7, she was about 24. and we becameery, veryclose. we were anchore in to to ship life isouth africa. both had greatmbition, we dn't know who would go overseas firs but we knew we were going to go. when she got here, we' been rresponding, she introduced me toizzy to, j.j. johnson to, miles and all. finally she sai come over re. even when we parted we worked gether on many tours all over the world.

the thing that i w most admirable about miriam she educated so many of us. sent so many of us to school. she would tour all the refugee camps in africa, buy the medicines,ring bundles of clothes and sheaised money for the patriot front of zimbwe, for mozbique and others. for the anc and i dot think anybody did for africa in the history of africa as much as miriam did. every president the world bowed ater feet. when she opene her mouth to sing it was ve few, any, siers who could mch the magic that me out. >> charlie: she had voice that matched her hrt. >> oh,eah. i think tha she's le louis armstrong, somebody that caot

be mourned, shee celebrated. >> charlie: you've said that before. en it went back, what were y expeing? >> well, i wasn't that uninfoed because, charlie, i lived in botswana for five years, iealized that i wouldn't goack to uth africa, chances are so slim and friend of mine, who was jor activist himself, wasiving in tswana, we'd grown up togetherhe said, in engnd where you live, you just statistic. if you come here, you can impart knledge, what you wantedo do when youent to the states. were right next door to musicians, everyeekend. i stted band then, m recor compy brought a mobil studio we started music school as well. we're so busy tha itecame a

cuural center of sout africa. then apartheid government death squad came in, they bbed out abou14 people, inclung my friend who told me to come to ve in botswana and his brother who was visiting. so, iad to leave again. now i was really sure tt the chances were very slim, these guys were ry serious just keeping activist. they were doing in all t neighboring countries. then in '89 a friend of mine, i went to visit south africa -- bowana a friend of mine said to me, bring your things to the border. you'll be coming hom next yr. i thout he wasoking. until my sisr with miriam and mandela lled me in may of 1909 said, come home. >> charlie: come hom mandelameans what to you? >> i think that he was a symbol

of tsoul ofouth africans. he showed a side of south fer cans, we'deen at war for maybe like 350 years. until we're conqued, but at first ke we started wh hospitality. and just gav things away, then one day wewoke up, it took us anothe00 ars. i thin what mandela was doing and others they all geeze came out, from an island they put mandelon as symbol, but the thing that they said was, don't burn your country down lik other peop do, but let us build this country wi those oppressed us. anmake it the eat country it can be, that's the potenal we have. nobody cou have put itor us anyetter.

because at really avoide probably whawould have been a veryad blood bath, because ople had been already going atach other. in fact when i came back to south africa it was a time of a lot of inteal conflicts between different parts and extremistsnd citizens, defense groups. it w really like time of snipers and all that. they were ablto like jt spread themessage and a feeling of peace. >> crlie: whado you think of jacob zuma? >> ihink that he h chance, if he lfills what he has said he will, he has chance because he's a pern who comes from the grass roots. he's not learned person. is very closeo like an african cultural heritage.

he might bees a t of help. because i think we've reache mature, we're statef maturity politically. th was our fourth election. it's time th we build the country instead ofaking it a platform for ckering. >> charlie: talkbout your musi take a look at this. is is clip you playing mandela "bring it back home." ♪

>> charlie: ell me about paul simon and graceland. >> i first met paul simonin 1965. 18966 we had the same pducer, th late tom wilson who is als producing bob dylan at the time. he would become a vice presidt of mgm,aul had co to letim listen tois new album. i remember it was playing "remary," the song for him, just beautiful. and then iroduced us. we met again at the mterey pop festival. ne years later i w livingin london after fleng from botswana gibb,aul was in town. lled me said, i just did this

i suspect thatmaybe i will dollf flack for having gon there but i just admired the music so much. i don'know what to do. i'm thinkingof doing a tour, but i word with more an a hundred people. and then said yo can cut it down to, just integrated band and i wld play with the band as wel u already have "black momso. and let's bring miriam in also. he asked for a number. six months laterhe called me to saywhen can w start rehearsing we went all overhe world. we played to millions of people. i think the alm went to sel ten million albums. >> charlie: heris what he said aut theusic on this show. >> most of the political sights that i have ever gathered have become fro

musicians from oth cultures, other countries. >> charlie: you mn freedom, human rights. just what's really going on in the country. like what was reay going on in south africa at the time >> charlie is there a song thatersonified that for you? >>no. in thease of soh rica, it wasn't a song. it was just talking to musicians who are,in m case, the guy w wamy mentor was hugh masekela, who grew up in a political environment. was also an extordinary ugelhorn and jazz player and understandhe music and culture. but alsounderstood the polics, he would explain, this is wt the anc standsor, this is what the su -- zulus or. >> the musicns often have inght in to the culture that you ner see in -- o an op ed

page. >>harlie: that's in part the role of musicians, isn't ite culture and give it expression and music? >> i think so. i think musiciansover the years have de in expressing the soul ofhe peopl from the gregorian chants right through beethoven,t was always about the qualy and folkongs of the peoe. i think the pnomenon about uth africa from th time miriam imparted knowledge abo it i the interest that grew over 20 yes until about 1958 where there was no artist that was recording anywhere in the world without incding in the cds a song thatsaid "free south offer coul or "dn with aparthei it was universal that put pressure on all the administtions of countries all over the world to thatxtent, south africa is th phenomenon because music was

a major catalyst our freedom and i thinkhat the vicle that was the most powerful at the height of the ai-apartheid sic was "gracela" we traveled the wle world over two years, and it was a kaleidoscope of sou african culture wiout preaching. and i think maybe or ten million people who h never heard about south africa before. got information for the fst time >> charlie: thi album, this latest cdphola" which means -- >> healg, get well. rela be cool. chill. [laughter] v. >> charlie: it's veryood to ve you here. thank you ve much for inviting me. it's been a rl pleasure.

>> crlie: yusuf islam is he. many wil remember him as cat stevens,the singer-songwriter who became a pop star at age 18. in the '70s his song "peace train" willd w world" and "moon shadow" s mainstay. he produced eight albums. he sold more tha 06 llion albums. here is look at hiswork sterday and today. ♪

♪ >> >> charlie: in 1977 steve converted islam and left the public arena. in his words, he got a life. he is today a flappist and established -- thepist, three years he -- flappist. his latest am bum i "road singer" pleas to have him her at the tab for the first time

welcome. >> thankou. >> charlie: ice to have you here. you saw a journey that tape, when y see it, what emotions come to you? >>ell, it's the same old heart, you know, that' the int. no manhanges his heart. but of course it's a great thing to hav your life on recordon film, to beble -- >> charl: on videotape, look at it. i'not sure is great. thrts. >> i was a good looking guy, i think, i can take it. i'm sure you can, too charlie. it was alife which sometimes i find difficu to remember everything about it. just pinnacles,you know. but it was a time when ireally

didn know what was going to happen next. and that, i think, was one of the things that drove me to try to find out a lile bit mor about life and this universe and iritual questions which e unsettling unless they have answers. >> charlie: youave never regretted the journey. >> absolutely not. i think we would nev -- we wouldn'te the people we are toy if we weren't who we we yesterday and whatever problem or mistakes we made. that makes u human. it makess darks darks help us to lrn. >> charlie: was it because in th beginning of the near drowning? >> well, that w just one th incidents to be hont. i used to, even going back about when i was about 14, 15years. i us to clim roofs around the area of london,est end. one day, you know, iwas losing grip. he grabbed m that could have been it so therere certainimes in

ur life when alize, it's a turning int. >> charlie: ow is it fferent today to create music? >> is easy. i've been given me kind of gift or sething m kind of key, i don't know what is. a key of li, stevie wonder talked about it. something thatomes naturally, it cook back to me. i hadn't plad the guitar like, close to about 25 years. i put it away. one day i picked it up again. it was because my son had broughthe guitar back in to th house. i wanot expting this, you know. and suenly there it was again. this was about 2001,something like that. picked it up. it jus felt, it was allhere. everything. >> charlie: what was everything? >> the insration. beuse i never began with kind

of bucks in m eyes. i d a certain dream a vision and th vision, i used to be a painter. i turned in to music. i start painting songsif you ke. >> charlie: whenour son brought the guita back, was that the beginning of saying, want to do thisgain? >> it wasn't really. i was veryautious, i took it slow nobody knew what s happening. more or less the way i was reing the koran, actually, when i was first reading. i kept it to myself. until the day i said, you know what, really? so, pretty similar. ijust kep this thing prite. th what happened, there was tsunami, the tsunami shook me because i was inhat area of the indiancean t one year before that, we were on one of these little islands noigger thanhat table

you know, imagine what cod have happened. i wrote this little song wle i was on holiday, then e tsunami happed. i said, m god. then i deloped that song. i got seusicians together we went in to the studio that was the first song everid, it was a charity. song for theictims of the tsunami. called "indian oan" and th was the beginning. en somebody heard i recorded something, then me seeking me out. hisame was steve buckinghingham from nashville. a great guy. he was convincing me to come to nashville. i s playing hard to get. i said,ell, i counted how many songs i had that time. okay, i'll come. then of crse, i made this amazing journey over withy daughter. you probably know what happened next. th reception i reived, not in

nashville, but in ba gore, maine, iever even heard of the ple before, sorry about that, i'm british. british should know the area. then all thatappened, the said, is your name yusufslam? yeah how do you spell it? i went,y-u-s-u-f. su you want to spel it -- no. i don't. i thght it was case of miss in that identity. anyway, we're back. i've got a song about that, too. >> crlie: we're back, means what? >> bk in new york. great. back in u.s. 's great. not only that, back wi a lot of my frien and fans and people who have ki of misd mend they felt that i was a lile bit abrupt. >> charlie: yes, would say so. >> i'm trying to mend that. >> charlie: by seeki out friends and gettingon the rd

again? >> yeah. charlie: and liening and hearinand being interviewed, all that have? >> and it's aonderful, wonderful reception. >> charlie: this is music video "boots in sand" featuring peop who you know. pa mccartn, dolly parson and allison kruausse. ♪

♪ i'm back on the long, long road. little prayer in my hand ♪ just me bootsnd sand♪ bootand sand ♪1 >> charl: what re do you have in rms much the life that you have led in iam? >> i think i've been giv a uniq position,i may not have appreciated it in e beginning. i may have wantedto just escape from everying i built up around me. in some way as a sr. but when it comes dow to sharing what i'v gathed, i do want to share it. because one of t things i

leard -- one of the things i wrote about w peace. now that is the heart and soul of everything i've wted all my life. peace d happiness,. happiness is that illusive quality whichoesn't really rive just through materl thin. you have to goto a placelmost withinourself. to getthere. peacis similar. if people look i this worl for like abeautiful garden, ide i can place, yeah, you cano that. but you know even if you goo e furthest place in this world, you won't reach i unt you nd it within you. that's the kind of ing i want to share. unfortunately ople when they look at headline d't reel lay get there. they don't get the message is helpin music is probably thebest way i could use conveyhat's in my hear >> charlie: that's what's interesting where yoare and what youan do and whe you are now. you can combine thewo. whatever inshts you have in to peace and what insights you have in to finding your soul, a

your abity to express it. >> tru >> charlie: t a wer audience. >> true. and it's a betiful tng. the fact th it's stil there means that god want me to do . if i couldn't wre a od song again i may give up. >> charlie: didou worry about that? >> well, you always -- i suppe suppose do you. in the d what i found, what i returned to was dog itor the sake of the fact wanted to do it. it wasn't because i was forced because i had contract s says you have to come uwith six albums by this date, by ts de. i was free. then mus became, if you like, expressionf love. mething thatasin me. i say youan take man outf th music but you can't take t music out of the man. >> all right. th is "road sing" welcome home to t song" thinking about you" what'that about?

>> having persoin this world makes it bette owing that that person is around contrsa world ofarkness." >> tt's part to dwith the musical i'writing. >> crlie: "moo shadow." >> that's the my i c. i'veeen wig it -- writing it about seven years. this is like the prelude. actual describes t world that we're about to enter. whh is a world of permanent night time whe there's only a moon whi provides natural light. people have t work, struggle all their lifeto pay for lht an heat. sounds simil, charlie to, somethg that we're experiencing right n. >> charlie: is that the stimulus fort? >>no. coincides with that. but the same time rkness, as i talked about befe, in connection with lig, there is materialism, somimes i'm afraid bngs a kind of darkness. it's not the same as switching off the light. someing else.

so, light is sometng very precious in our lives. we don't apprecte the sun sometime we expect it. we expect it but if we really take anoth ok, morning is broken, it' a big message. >> charlie: it's clea you're back. you e embarked on a contuing journey and anher chapter. >> yes. the journey doesn sto you may reach certain part of your destinion but ifou for ask me t best thing thatver ppened in my life. i say, don't think it's happened yet. >> charl: so do i. thank you. great to see you. >> thank you. >> charlie: frances osborn is he, she was years old when sheearned the identity of her greatrandmother. she was a glamorous woman with notorious reputation. after her rst marriage

collsed she fled engla for den i can't leaving behind her two children. she was ultimely married and dirced five tis. british society was shocked when news of her scandalous baviors l colonial setecame public. osborn's new book about her great grandmother called "t bolter" i was us an iimate look at he life. i'm pleased to have frances osborn here. >> thank you. >>harlie: why this book? >> whythis book? >> charlie: why not this book. >> imagine bei 13, made u imagine to be femalea 13 year old girl you open the newspapers one sunday morning, there, the top of the newspers is picture of woman standing in a 1920s ouit in africa, between pair of ephant tusks. derneath is written the headline ristocrats, alcol and adulter a serializati,n about thmurder of, a british earl back in the 19 -- send

world war. and this man, errol washe third of her five husbands. it described this woman who welcomed her guests a she lay naked in the th, served tm cktails in her bathroo d them a four-cour french meal in her farmhouse hh up in the african mountains then after dinner me them play ges to see who was going end up in bed with whom that night. >> chaie: a bit of wife swapping as we would s. >> yeah. orven more wife swapping sounds, organized games. she s called t high priestess of these remonies, i was , my sisteras 11. my streets tore wantedo read her. i told her she was too young. we took this article to my parents, my fath began laugh. my motr went bright red. my fatr said, you have to tell them my mother said, ts woman was my grandmother. i mean, was hooked. one of the key thingsbout

idena she wa not born a great beauty. but she managed to make herself inedibly attractive. there was -- >> chaie: by her wit, style? >> sf these things. she was stylish, museor the great nags designer of t day. papersight across the world wrote up when she put on clothes they began to look amazing. she was incredibly sharp-width incredibly well re and she could chat t anybody. they say that when s walked in to a room the lights appeared a little brighter. she just had "it." >> charlie: telleabout her first marriage >> her first marage was to a dashing young handso cavry officer who wa a sco jt inherited $2 million unds in cash in 1913. hundreds of millis of dollars basically. they had -- the interesng thing that he was classically ve good looking. idena wasn't classicly good

lookg, this ability to make herself attractive that n him. th were madly in love, i have hisiaries which start in 1917. in the middle of t first world war whe he was fighting in france. they dcribe how idena risked the u-boats to cross the channel and meet him in paris. ere they would havehese extremely passionaeekends. in h diary she wrote various things like, lite e, the only woman, wick theittle creature. orven "little one, extracted a large ri by everything a only she knows how." they wer very much togher as a couple. but by the e of the first

world war, their marriage ha been pulled apar >> charlie: by at? >> partly byhe war. >> charl: distance. >> ifact it wasn't distancestra. it was beingearby. if you hadwo weeks leave those were the only eks youo party or. he didn't it for her to get better. very, very beautif woman who s the daughter of a faus british architect called edwin, she wacalled barbie deded that uwin wallace wa prisely the sortf husband she wld like. >> charlie: what haened? >> -- >> h was my grt grandfather. idena got bette. fought back, didn'win her husband was still carly in love with this oth woman. rbie was not sleeping with him. he was sleeping with someby else. barbie was too cleve toealize if she startedleeping with this man, she just be an affair.

not the woma he would marry idena took a lover herself. >> charlie: right. >> thell -- we're talking edwardian era. people operated in differe way. >> charlie: was she well-known by this time? >> was idena well-known? yes. she was very well-known, s'd been wrien up in the papers, in the united stat, spent quite some timhere. shwas one of those lively spiritthat lifted things up. al, other young wen went around in whe dresses, ide had a black dress. >> charlie: wh was her mother like >> the key thing abt idena that she camfrom this maternal line of rong wome you have to lo at her grandmother, ann brassie t fit person, not tirst woman to circumnavigate e rld by steam yacht. in the 1807s instead of taking

leavg her children at home tookhem on board, 4,000 books, sailed around the world, wrote a book about it. voyage in the sunbeam. textbook throughout e united states and rest the. ill in print today. meanwhe, she sent her husba, she was very much breing the rules, wanted to actively break, enhance women lived in the days. she w doing, this she sent her huand back home to parliament on strict instructions to campaign for wen's suffrage, whh he did. >> crlie: he was very public. ewan was very public,ight? >> it wa -- yes. id. itas -- key tng was that he s going around, edwardian times you coulhave affair th was post-edwardian, you could have affairs as long nobody found out. e actss, mrs. patrick campbell said, y can do what you like in the bedroom, but don't dot in the street and frighten theorses. an was very clear going to

spd time with barbie and her clest frnds, one whom ewan was sleeping with. the oer. of whom was idena's sister, key point. instd of ide. >> charlie: he you anged your min how you see himin the relatiships and how these characrs unfolded? desions they made, what ty did? >> yes. i started this book, start the research, itarted looking at this amazing treure trove of diarie havingeen told thatdena was totally in the wng that she had simply walked out of a happy marriage. what is quite interesting, i've been on a journey because firs of all i learned that this wa't the case. i was furious with ewan and ma peopleho read t book are like, e had to ave him. shhad no choice. because he was in ve with someone else. but then theore i've looked at the period and looked at the war you see this way which it's nojust the separatio war but sort of destructio of

all acceptedalues. that happened duringhe first worl war. how thatchanged things and pulledhings apart. sort ofin ad why at first hestarted running aroundith a group of young girls who were not ing in bed like idena was. maybe i'm a little -- writing book like this, these peoe did beha appallingly whi mes them soascinating. it justteaches you to b a bit more accepting and understandg. you have to lo at things in th framewo of the morals and behavior othat time. then accept that everyonis dierent. >> charlie how were the mora and framework of our te toy different than the morals and framework of that me? >> tre isn't really sort of systematic institutionlid procede for adulte now as there was then. this was roun about up the end ever the first world war and

afterwards some pele say still exists in places today there was something called the mulbra house rules. that is where queen vtoria's eldest son, the future kin edward theth lived. while was waiting to become king, he started takingany, while was king heook many mistress amongst beautiful women of the day. fist friends followed, what the royal fami did set ptern of what was peissible. th rule were as follows: y took lersmongst your friends cesis wives or wives amongst your friend wives. woman had to have had two childrenalled an heir and spe, preferably boys to make re the pperty, whoever the father of he children, the property would at least stay within herusband's family. relationships were uslly nducted between five and seven, hce the frame "in the afternoon" i thi the reasons

for this werentirely practical. women's corsets re very har toace supremely tightly to get as thin asyou possiblyould be. woman in this socty needed r te to helper. you codn't really wait until somebody turn up thenall the maid in send her out. the id at 5:00 would take her out of her tea gown leave he alone until 70 in the evening when she wld return to be dressed for the evening. >> charlie: would y have writtethis book without the diarie >> no. >> charlie: it reallyas locking of histoc -- >> yes. i would not ha written the book witho the diaries. it would have i would not have been able t get t sort of depth of understanding of really seeing the sort of heartbreaking at led somebody toehave sod withly. >> charlie: but a lo she en goes to india,o kenya, correct? yes. >> charlie to happy valley,

was it? >>called hay valley. became known as happy valley afte everye learned about the game she was playing. >> crlie: but that'shen it gets interesting, isn't it? >> yes. it gets extremelyinteresting. therwas an abandonedme of the social rule there. idena's mother, grandmother broken socia rules, her mother d been a keyoman sufferragist introduced the laboparty. anddivorced h husband spectacularl broken the rules in this way. idena chose to break the rules she did so in kenya. by behaving sexually as men could. it was more permissib for men to take multipl lover idena -- >>harlie: decided she could. >> yes. it was also extreme intereing in terms of kenyan life wasextremely -- africa is fantastic continent.

's hop not i can,life there is very exciting becse you're on the edge of physil danger so much of the te. idena had farm there, she was a ve successful farmer,e bred e best jersey dairy herd. she introduced the crop, worked very hard but that also mnt they playe veryard. ve what happens to her? she goes keny what happs to her? >> she goes to kenya -- >> crlie: creates a life. >> she has fr husbands. she builds beautiful homes then she comes back to engla an again ets the cldren from whom she was separated when she lefter first husband. thiseeting her son changes r life, there is -- they're has diffent as they can. she isho she s. he is a would-be priest. they find complete oneness and understanding. this cses her to, srtly

after towards take on two step childrena very hands-on fullime mother. deems herself in this way. >> charlie: how old is she en she dies? >> dies iner 50s. her early 60s. thing is that what goes around comes arnd. idena later in lifeecomes a good mother then one by one every sing one of those chdren are taken from her. >> charlie: here she is pained by sir william erpen 1891 look at this. this is picture that's on the backf the book as well. numb two is her engement photo. number three i ewan and sons afterhe left in 1919. there he is. number four isanother photogph of her. where does the title come? >>heoltera woman who runs away from he huand. who bos. there is very famou-- the 19s and '30s were age of bolters because men were

finding their independencat this time. the writer nancy mintford - >> charlie: bas her cake after. she probably based on several people of the day. idena was the mt infamousr therd similariti. >> charlie: bween her chacter -- >> and ida. >> your oth life in addition to this come from prominent political faly. >> i my spare time. george osbor is chancellor, all of us know equivalent to being secretary of the treasury. if in fact the's a conservative government will be the principle fince man r british government. you ready for that? >> am i ready for that? >> we have slightlyort of more disjointed husband and wife role in britain. >>harlie: how is tt? >> you don't expect the wife play -- >> crlie: you don't campaign for him >> you do campaign. doesn't sort of, not likeoth you doing the job. charl: if he becomes

member of the prim minister's cabinet, what i am pact will it have on your life? >> he will be busi. and he will be even busr. >> charlie: lieu like politics. >> find it fascinating. i've grown up with it. >> crlie: married to i >> i'v grown upo it. on of sort of been surrounded by that,atching the 10:00 news try to work out when my father would be home. now try to figure o when my husband will be ho. don't think i could have faen in love with somebody w wasn't doing somethingto try improve otherpeople's lives. or do spend thei life looking outwards rather than inwards >> charlie: you wantto write abt family. >> theyere both researched as the basis of a novel. both cases agents and publishs persuaded me. >> charlie: he real story. >> because it was so strong and had so much mateal. now historical fiction.

>> charlie: that's whe you are. >> i'm work onovel set in london in 1866. >> charlie: what's wrong with history, period? >> i am not a historian. >> charlie: you don't want to be the next antoni frazier? anto r is a fantastic wan. she is very -she's historian. i'm not a historian. i know about ople. that's what i'm interested in. people. >> crlie: what aut people are u interested? >> i am interested in the decisions people make that afct their lives. i'm interested i thoseassing ments when you decide to do one thin o another. the consequces of what happs. >> charlie: the passing moments your life? >> in my le. probably when i decided whether ornot to go to the prepared's house ich i meant and met my husband. am i going to go ere today or not. i remember deciding wther to go or t.

probably when ient to a friend book launc and talked to her publisher abouthe idea had forhe first book, he said -- i didn't know whether i was ing to get there. he said, go home andwrite, this is an idea, u have a book. >> charlie: whatid you mos likebout idena when you stp it all away, was it the fact that this woman took charge of her own life andcreated her own world? >> yes. i like had she -- tt she did not fe confine or constrained by convention. that she was willing to step outside of that, take very brave, bold st. also admire her optimism. five marriages, thinking each time that th is the one. certainly oimistic. in atrange way it s that very optimm that was her distction. >> charlie: she died satisfied and happy? >> she died having passed

through extreme tragedies, and en found some relationship rebonded with her daughter. she died believinghat she was abouto see her dauter, that her daughter was goin to do what shene which was come visit hein africa. >> chaie: he bter" the wild, beautiful, fearless, kya ien kenen se of kenya. beme known as the high priestess of the happy valley. >> thankou. >> charlie: tnk youfor joinings. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose comnications captioned by mea access group at wgbh accessgbh.org