what doou think a ee can be? can it be stronger than steel? can a trebe biodegradable plastic? can it be fue for o cars? or clothing? medicine to fight cancer? with o tree cell technology, we tnk it can. weyerhaeus, growing ideas. >> i don't understand this rudeness. what is this? i don't get it. this week on "inside washington," the robust, sometimes nasty debe over health care reform. >> disagree over things that are real, n these wd misreprentations that br no

reselance toanything that has actually bn proposed. >> what are theolitical consequences for the predent and membs of congress? >> day god is gog to stand before yoand he is going to judge you. >> the fed says things are getting bett. why don't they feel better? >> feel the local populace from the influence of thealiban. >> is there an end game f american tops in afghanistan? and nice kennedy shrer, a founder of the special olymps, dead at thage of 88. >>resident kendy used to say that if she had beea man, she would have bn president instead of jack. captned by the naonal captioning institute --www.ncicap.org >> it has be aild weeon e health care front. e president has been trying to uelch reports that the

democrats' health re reforms inudes a plannedo kilold peop. this weein iowa, republican senator chuckrassley helped to keep that talk going. >> i don't have any problems with things like ling wills, but they ought toe done with the family wehould not have a government progr that dermines if to pull the plug on grandma. >> let's e if w can lay ts thing to rt. is the obama administration planning to pull the ug on grandma, jene? >> no, they are t planning to do that. this is oneof those provisions thatecause it is poorly written or because peoe see a benefit in it haseen totally sinterpreted. clearly, what it is is a reimbursent fo services where a senior who wants torite a livingill canget that for fr, essentially, or at a discount, but it is volunry, not mandory. >> evan, why is this debate so

nasty? >> because the administration tried to getway with somethg. at the outset, theyaid we need control costs, t they said that nothing would change an you would ha your insurance. people smell a rat they knew instctively that it could not be true. although there a lot of misinfmation and this is nutty theo that is out tre, the public is not wrong to suect that you cannot have it both ways, you cannocontrol costs and had e same heth care. i think thedministration has been caught on s own petard on this. >> mark? >> i believehat the death panel story is a productf eithergnorance or malice. think you can say malice in e case of th fmer speaker the house, a man a towering intellect who is enuraging thisisperception. but i do agreehat one of the great pblems of this plan from the very outsets that it

violates the principle rule is that there areo gains without pains. if there are going to be changes of this mnitude, they are going toffect everyone of us, and you are better off leling with pple going in to get a better result. >>harles, what do you think? >>ell, the death panels' stuff is wdly exaggated. but the was a problem outlined by charles lane, itorial writ for "th washington post," white liberal guy, smart guy, who sa that if you introduce into the cost cutting section of the bill t idea of doctors being reimbursed by the gornment for consultion on living wills, yo are quietly implyingthat this is something you want to encourage and that it is also links with cutting the costs. obama has spoken ithe pas about his n grandmother getting a hip replacement

machine was ill and infirm whether it w worth it. here is a l of thinking abo is and people suspect that at the end othe road there will be a coercive kind of medicine. >> i thinkhe underlyinreason for th provision is that there is data and studies ou there at show that in areas ere people are encouraged d to develo guidelines on how they wanto be treated at the end of life, most of them do notant to die in an icu unit. many o them want to diet home with their families around them. budoctors with no gdance cannot make that call. the idea behind it is at yes, it would save ney, because ey are not in an icu unit, a it would do what the patit wants to do. iagree with chars, that the oblem is that this got wedded with not we want to help a patient di ina manner they want to die, but tied to ct.

>>he time you want to make thisdecision is before that d not to pasit on to be loved os who are surving and then say, my gos and i thagoing to pulthelug? its a rational, thoughtful, absolutely senble way -- >> i have been there in medicine. the fense directive of living lls are almost entirely irreleva. you sense a bit in advan,ou enup in hostal, a doctor is not going to lookhat unless yoare unconscus, demented, or do not he a family. what determines how youill be trted is what you say in t hospital at e time, no matter what is written. >> i went through ts with my ow mother. she was dyi,he wanted to die, and tre were three doctors who wanted to do procedures honor. they were not unkind, but it was eir way to do more procedure it is a very difficult. and we do no er have an nest conversation about it.

>>et me to our question that isnot wacky, adjust to democric senat ben cardin in towson, maryland. >> howre you going to keep my employer from stopping offering insurance and forcing me on to the public option if that is chper for their bottom le? >> that is a pretty good question. does anybody haven answer for at? >> that isuestion that the democrats do n want to fe. that is what every business group that does provide insurance really talks about how th public pl could affect them. obama will arethat in order to keep od employees, businesses wl have to offer bett plans, and th sorof thing, sthat will keep the system in place. b there is going to be se of that. it will be som sheing off, no question about it, whi is by senator baucus is focusing so much on co-ops and not public

plans. >> which is why when barney frank is asked why he is not supporting the canadian-style system, what he really wants, he says on mera that there is no way to get it right away. wato do it is with a public option. liberals understand if you go to the public option, in the end, it will take er, beuse the private industry will give up and people who a promised today that he will be able to keep yourecords will not have it if the emplor is not offeng it. -- keep your inrance will not ve it if the employer is not offering it. >> politicians are ing it sleight of hand. ama is not being honest about it. he ss he will cut costs but nothing willhange. we will not t from here to there unless we have th beginnings o an honest nversation abt it, and the blic, for all o it cra consracy theories, is right to blow the whistle and aswhat is goinon here. >> social serity is banupt,

medicares bankrupt, the post office i bankrupt. hoam i as a proud arican going to trust you pele to do the ght thing? >> let me as u abouthe politica conseences. according to recent poll independenvoters are the need sympathetic ear to the town hall protester senatorrlen specter, w was a demrat and then became republican and receny became a demoat again, losing ground because of hisupport for reform. could this ba turning point for him? >> he certain showed the mettle and some would say this means is that made him an effective senator ov the years. he stood toe-to-toe wit the stroest of protesters. i do not know it is a turng int. >> his unfavorables a up. >> i do think his in a tough race. i think h challenger, joe

sestak, missed a golden opportunity to cmend him for his handling of . but there is no qstion that alweek long the have been efensive. they have emphized the posive meetingthat have worked, three out of four, they insist, being a good meanings without is kind of pytechnics. but i do think that the whe house has ce back by reclaiming and rebutting the st eegious errs. but polically, is a very, very tough. >> w did the white hse get behindhe curve on this? >> the rublicans had planned animplemented it instantly. the plan to get these people a the townall meetings d send messages in advance so tt they were armed with questions. they were way ahead of the game, and it is a surprise, again, the white house was behind. this seemso be a recuing pattern, they are about a week late. i agree with mark that they are

cong bacpretty strong this eek. whetr they can turn the corner it remains to be seen. when it comes to arlenpecter, i think he help himselfor the demoatic primary, which is wherhe really nee to help itself quite a bit. he looked pretty strong in his second performance i particular. that became aodel forther democrat i thin the democratsn the end of the month might benefit from showingoughness and owledge. theyre being really -- they are being asketo the hard estions and a half have detail answers. it was muchmarter to them to go out and face the fire rather than run and hide. >> chaes says that president obama has lt the debatbased on the congressional bget office fures. >> as we are videotang this show, obama isetting ready to go into the lion's den in montana. he needs a moment, aig moment when they are all yelling him and he says somethg that is

calming yet firm he needs to outhere the way these senators are briefly doi, facing his detrtors and doing it ia way that shows courage and leadership. >> democrats would like to think that they arlosing this because they are beingout- organized, because of the nspiracy out ther groups tt are galvanizingpeople, tacts are wrong. e problems tha -- the problem is with what evan said -- a contradictionhat the ordinary american understands -- the president sayse will cut sts of health care d we would by injung 50 million additional americans. you are 8 years old -- by insuring 50 mlion additiona americans. if y are 8 years old, you kw that cant happen. when the cbo ss it will cost a fortune, not save, there was no esca.

thosare numbers that you cannot refute. >> this year's deficit is $1.27 trillion. people to noce that. >> the way it affects the health care debate is that the bill for the outset was going to be paid for. it did not in and of itself add to the dicit. the problem with the deficit getting thathey are the costs in the system of medicare and medicaid. w there is preure for tm to find ways to end those costs, and that is e much trickier proposition, becse that is the pain. >> on friday's "washingt post," it donstrated this with exactitude-ll of the growth the deficit cos from the owth of medare and micaid government spendinon health. that ishere the growth is. it is not small, it really big, and until they get a hale on that, it will to up the federal budget and the u.s. economy-. econom -- in 19 -- two of the

u.s. economy. spendingn health care is now up to 17%. good health care costs, and we should spend alot, but that is a big number. >> the fed says that thingsre getting that out it sure doesot feel like it's getting tter to people the town hall meengs. nator grassley says we may not ve a bill. is that a possibili? , they will have a bill ecause democrats know that the president is dea politicallyf th does not happen. erefore i think there will be all back, a health insurance bill, meang youwill ioseon the insurance companies and everybodys in short and no precondition exclusions, etc., and there ll be amended at the young and hlthy will have t ay to subsidize the old. >> what charle describes cann happen because the insurae companies ve cut a deal here,

and there is noay they can take in everybody without some give on the other side, and the democrats know that at the white house knows that. ere will be a heal care reform, but what is at stake here ishe public plan. as chars sd, that is close to having fallen ay to the site already. >> insurance cpanies will be compensated by having a mandate in which the young will pay into insurers, and that will subsidize the payment for t uninsured d the old. >> elections in ahanistan next week. holong will troops be there? >> some days you're mine is not right and you thk about what going backome, i cld be drinking a beer rhtow, why did ver join the army,eople shoong at me, what am i doing here? some days u are like, want to kick that guy's ass. >> goo question, what ise

doing there? the next head of e brith army says the u.k. willbe commitd to ahanistan forhe next 30 to 40 ars, an. w long were all people there -- howong will our ople be there? >> to 40 years. the really ponant thing that is going on on the gund is that we ve got to reduce civilian casualties d this is ner going to work. in order to redu cilian casualties, you ve to put your soldiers at risk. you cannot be callingin air strikes, cannobe calling i artilry strikes. ose poor soldrs have to shoot those guys one by o, and that irisky for them. that ia chan i doctre, calling onhese young men an women to put their lives at risk so that they do not kill civilians. >> to what e, what do you say to them? why are we putting you at the? >> civili casualties are up,

and the principal cause and beyond the taliban'activities arair strikes. this has become a remotcombat situatn. americans are seen iheavily armod vehicles when ty are seen in tse troubled areas, beyond the tempt to organize communities and reh out to peop -- mark, you are -- >> rk, y are a step behind. >>he afghans see th casualties aa consequee of american presence d american picy. would add to it that when richard holbrooke, guru for ghanistan and pastan,as aed this week how to define success, he said "we will know whathen we see it." now, tha i amsorry,s not a rationa or reason for sending americans into- >> if you are parent andave a

younman or woman of there being ot at a regular basis and you s why are we here, why my son or daughter there -- >> i think that this one is a lot easier to talk to those parents about that iq. this is e root of september 11. through the taliban, hopefully to al qaeda. and that is the path, and that is one thatcan be justified, i think, to parts much more easily tha iraq might have been. this is about getting osama bin laden. >>es, but not if it is an unwinnable war. that is the greatirony. demoats are the ones who id that afghastan is the good war, the wwar -- r it war, that w should at all the time to but how you fight war in a country that nev was a countr iraq was a winnable war. afghanistan is war that only at a minimum is winnae,

meeting in keeping at te the talin and al qaeda. the idea of constructi a new democracy afghanistan,s we have alst successfully done in iraq, is out of the question. afghanistan neve was a country and is not going to be democracy. thinke have to redefine our als ricallyow, or we are going to be in there for 30, 40 years. >> we will not be there for 30, 40 years. the will of the american pple - atome point that becomes unsustainable without an achievablemission, defined mission. >> we wl have some force there for as long as the eye c see. >> may in kal. >>e is the mayor of kabul karzai i >> while on a reign policy,

how do you think hilry clinton diin africa this week? >>the complexity of dealing with and a lot, nigeria -- angola, nigeria's about oil, democracy everyplace else, and was not just aid the visit. this is theomplexity of africa, the first time the first year of an ministration the president and t secretary of state have been to africa. the fac that s just responded as she did to that queion i just said good for you preview of the secretary of ate, senator inton. --ood for you. you are the sectary of state, hillary clinton. >> as your only fema repsentative, i tnk the question w offensive -- ->> was a mistake. >> if you lisn to the tranation -- >> it was demeaninand

offensive and i was proud oher for taking right back to him. >> i amympathetic, but i think it is about the fa is you have richard holbrooke in charge of afghastan and pakistan, george mitchell in charge of the middle east, envoys here and there, or husband thais the hero of korea,nd she is in the ongo. obama the stdes t world, speaking in thgreat eopean capil, and she is in kinsha. would you be upset? i am sure kinsha -- is alw pleas by -- kshasa is a lovely spot -- actually, it is a hell hole. she is given africa. she has been heavy marginalizedead in the six months of this ainistration, as she proposed a policy, given a speech, or made a trip of any high importance? the answer is .

it is all being done bothers. >> you can overste that. she and richardolbrooke our partners. richard holbrooke is not pushing her around. that is a pretty equalatch. >> but if you are secretaryf ate, kissinger george shtz, you are the guy who makes policy. you are the guy who en up in beijing, not richard holbrooke and you stuck in kinshasa. >> i agree with evann this -- richard horooke was a strong supporter of furs, and he did not get that job over h objecons or resistance. i wou say that this wasn important trip thashe just talk -- took. her importance when she went to asia as secrety of state -- when she comesn, she is basically a figure almost as big as the predent in visiting any place.

>> i tnk that the wld has got enough problems -- we have so many hot ots now around the wod, that a team of envoys a good idea, and i think it is a credit to half self-confidence to have that team working aund her and to not fee all the slides thatharles would hav felt if itas him >> but it is tr that she is humaand she feels her husband'overbearing presee from time time. just for a moment she owed it. >> ioined in praising he pre all i'm saying is thatf you were i kinshasa, you wouldbe bother, too. >> a word on theassing of euni kennedy shriver. >> you special ompians have a thrill us on the playing fies of th world. you've taught ushat what matts is not power politics, weapons or weth. what rlly cous is the

courageous spirit a the generouseart. >> the vce of eunice kennedy shriver, who died this week. she s certainly a force of natu. according to those pele who knew her, e was the fce behind t international special olpics for people with intellectual disilities. i say she was a force of nature according to people who knew her. the stories we hrd about her this week were wonderf. >> i have intviewed her about bobby keedy, and if you did this to sugge that there was even the tiniest in perfection with bobby kennedy, you are immediately t straight on that and told to get with the program. e was a formidable lady. >> she is an inspition for many people o care abou those o are impaired. she illustrates how much can be done even if you are not elected -- inn elective office, holding a power base somewhere the specl olympicnow is internationally and influen, and she diall that witho

holding office. we have seen a generation of kennedys behind her also starting to do this in the prive sector. its a greatole mod for what pple can accomplish. >> she h terrific children. they are all in the public sector in one waor the other, too. >>he was a nobleman who took up a noble cause and made it work. tells us that the kennedys really were a royal family. that geration was mt extraordinary. a preside, a market sator -- martyred senator, a great senator anineddy. i not think the younger generation can match thelders, and that isot to put down, but it was an amazing generatn that we wi not see again. >> her brothers, jn andobert anddward, all made hdlines and made the historbooks. she made a difference. she changed the way we e each other. before eice knedy bece the

face and voi of tse who are mentally disabled, they were basically shunted fromhe mainstam of society. she brought themo the bright sunshi of acceptance, where they can work and go to school and be accepted. is an enormous and it - an ormous achievement. >> thanks, last word. see you next wk. for a transcriptf this broadct, log on to sidewashington.tv.